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On September 15 2018 20:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Was wondering what Maru's stats this year looked like so I just had a quick look. Only looking at GSL the b word is definitely not out of place. But looking at Maru's whole year, it's harder to say. He's actually only 170-78 (68,55%) this year, so not in the 80-85% range that if I remember correctly were the standard in bw. We have to take the increased volatility of the game and the fact that Maru tends to adjust to the level of his opposition ; but still.
But if you look at his offline stats only he has 71 % winrate in maps and 82 % in series
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On September 15 2018 20:10 Toua wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Was wondering what Maru's stats this year looked like so I just had a quick look. Only looking at GSL the b word is definitely not out of place. But looking at Maru's whole year, it's harder to say. He's actually only 170-78 (68,55%) this year, so not in the 80-85% range that if I remember correctly were the standard in bw. We have to take the increased volatility of the game and the fact that Maru tends to adjust to the level of his opposition ; but still. But if you look at his offline stats only he has 71 % winrate in maps and 82 % in series
true. Definitely one of the best years in sc2 history.
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On September 15 2018 20:00 hexhaven wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 19:57 Charoisaur wrote:On September 15 2018 19:54 Musicus wrote:On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote:
can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking? difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS. Counterpoint ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/fmSSASx.jpg)
Thats not a lot of data.
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On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
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GSL baby micro trick,
GSL Finals maru vs TY Finals cinematics opening
GSL the trick is you pick it up before it dies / if you don't lose anything you are not going to be
GSL TY's father interview
GSL Maru's mother interview
GSL Artosis innovation's mom gumiho's mom
GSL Artosis rpg stats
GSL Maru post finals interview
GSL Baby post finals interview
GSL Maru ceremony
GSL lego blocks
GSL Artosis that guy is an idiot
GSL Tastosis if i play perfectly / if they scout my proxy just win anyways
GSL Artosis proxy funny
GSL TY + Special Tasteless Doritos
GSL proxy rax divining rod / audience cheers
GSL Tastosis MVP vs Squirtle Pog
GSL Tastosis pins
GSL cheers neosteel op
GSL audience Major
GSL Audience cheer art
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On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
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United States33711 Posts
On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected).
I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as BW, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011).
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On September 15 2018 20:24 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.'' I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs. The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc).
Just curious, how do you interpret it?
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On September 15 2018 20:25 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:24 Waxangel wrote:On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.'' I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs. The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). Just curious, how do you interpret it?
he just said it
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On September 15 2018 20:24 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.'' I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs. The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected). I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011).
but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway.
In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever.
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On September 15 2018 20:26 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:25 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:24 Waxangel wrote:On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.'' I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs. The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). Just curious, how do you interpret it? he just said it
Yeah, don't know how i skimmed over that. Still high on Maru's win i think.
Oh and we didn't even need the switch to happen for Flash and JD to fall, they were getting outdone left and right by Fanta and Jangbi in BW's twilight.
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On September 15 2018 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:24 Waxangel wrote:On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.'' I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs. The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected). I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011). but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway. In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever.
Those players are still finding more success in BW today than they had in SC2 though.
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On September 15 2018 20:44 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:On September 15 2018 20:24 Waxangel wrote:On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.'' I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs. The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected). I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011). but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway. In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever. Those players are still finding more success in BW today than they had in SC2 though.
Really? Or, mostly just Flash?
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On September 15 2018 20:44 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:On September 15 2018 20:24 Waxangel wrote:On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.'' I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs. The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected). I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011). but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway. In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever. Those players are still finding more success in BW today than they had in SC2 though.
because there they don't have to compete with the new generation outside of Soulkey and Rain (who btw are two of the absolute top players which adds to the theory that they would've become stars in BW anyway if the switch didn't happen).
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On September 15 2018 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:24 Waxangel wrote:On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.'' I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs. The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected). I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011). but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway. In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever.
Which is just factually incorrect, Flash is still the best player in bw.
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On September 15 2018 20:54 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:On September 15 2018 20:24 Waxangel wrote:On September 15 2018 20:21 Morbidius wrote:On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate. The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.'' I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs. The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected). I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011). but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway. In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever. Which is just factually incorrect, Flash is still the best player in bw.
In a severely talent depleted, no-team era of BW.
Don't get me wrong, Flash is a generational talent. But who's to say if teamhouses/teams still existed, with the old training regimen, that he would get equaled or even surpassed?
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On September 15 2018 19:57 Morbidius wrote:
Does Maru really need Blizzcon for people to give him credit? If you don't think a guy who won 3 GSL in a row is the best how would winning a weekender against foreigners to prove anything? To me he could go chill at some california beach and he would still be the GOAT.
If you are comparing whether Maru surpasses Innovation, I don't think Maru has matched Innovation's accomplishments yet. Aside from Maru's 3 GSLs this year, Maru won one OSL and one SSL prior to this year. Innovation has achieved much more over the length of his career in SC2:  INnoVation
Innovation is still the GOAT for SC2, but that's my opinion (everybody has a different opinion). If you are saying Maru is one of the best SC2 players after today's GSL win, then I agree. I put Maru up there with the best SC2 players such as Innovation, Life, MVP, sOs, etc. But for GOAT, that means the best of the best. The best of the best, or GOAT, is Innovation.
If Maru wins Blizzcon, Maru would be very close to Innovation, or possibly overtaking Innovation as the GOAT.
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Finland965 Posts
On September 15 2018 20:14 Aunvilgodess wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:00 hexhaven wrote:On September 15 2018 19:57 Charoisaur wrote:On September 15 2018 19:54 Musicus wrote:On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote:
can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking? difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS. Counterpoint Thats not a lot of data.
But it's not nothing either.
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On September 15 2018 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2018 20:07 IshinShishi wrote:On September 15 2018 20:02 Aunvilgodess wrote:On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote:
Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru. Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago. There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon. No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
lol...yes it was. I think it's fair to say now that the overall Kespa pool of players was stronger, sure, but not by much at all and certainly not at all what that article would have you believe. I don't feel like there is much room for interpretation here, it is very clearly trying to argue a strong correlation with BW results and expected sc2 performance.
Yeah, there were strong upcoming players like Rain, Soulkey, sOs, Bogus, and RorO who were in line with or even exceeded expectations. But then there were also massive flops like Bisu, Flash (he had two strong peaks but never making it past the ro16 is a big flop for his reputation), Jaedong (again, he had strong period but given the rep, I'd say his sc2 career was a flop), and to a lesser extent Jangbi and Fantasy (had potential but never looked like title contenders in anything).
The conclusion of the article very firmly states:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
Which is laughable and not anywhere close to reality. In fact, I think Kespa barely had 30 players that fit that description if even that.
Additionally, the rise of WCS between 2013-2014 somewhat screwed with the comparison, as if you recall, non-Kespa players had much more freedom to participate outside of Korea for easy money at the expense of a less rigorous practice environment. MC, MMA, Polt, Taeja, Mvp, NesTea, HyuN, Bomber, Jjakji and many more all weren't competing in Korea for some time. Which resulted in more Kespa dominance. People thought they were just running from the real competition, but look what happened the first season everyone came home:
2015 Global StarCraft II League Season 1/Code S
Not to mention we have champs in contemporary times like ByuN and Gumiho who were mid-tier at best pre-Kespa.
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EPT
