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On April 18 2018 23:08 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote:
Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game.
Who died and gave you a moral mandate?
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On April 19 2018 02:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 23:08 Boggyb wrote:On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote:
Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game. Who died and gave you a moral mandate?
He's not wrong though.
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On April 18 2018 23:56 Obamarauder wrote:
this seems to be a common problem for foreigner zergs. not trying to shit on foreigners but they seem clueless in lategame ZvT since there isnt really any top terran that plays EU ladder besides uthermal. when serral streamed, he even said that he has 0 practice against ghost raven (referencing maru vs serral wesg) since games are decided much earlier due to skill difference
I haven't seen a Korean Zerg who can beat it either without the "not letting them get there" argument.
EDIT: I'm talking Maru-level skill here.
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Terran in lategame ZvT is both frustrating to watch and play against. This is a balance observation, not a whine. It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree. Ravens are slightly too strong, and so are ghosts. Together they form an army so cost efficient zerg can't even win while heavily out-mining terran. It needs to be fixed.
My suggested changes:
Raven supply increased from 2 to 3
OR
Raven anti armor missile radius reduced
OR
anti armor missile armor reduction from 3 to 2
For the ghost, their tankiness needs to be reduced. Right now they don't die to lings and tank blings like marauders. I'm not sure if it's their armor or HP that needs to be nerfed to decrease their strength without making them bad, but something needs to change here.
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France12761 Posts
On April 19 2018 04:19 TentativePanda wrote:
Terran in lategame ZvT is both frustrating to watch and play against. This is a balance observation, not a whine. It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree. Ravens are slightly too strong, and so are ghosts. Together they form an army so cost efficient zerg can't even win while heavily out-mining terran. It needs to be fixed.
My suggested changes:
Raven supply increased from 2 to 3
OR
Raven anti armor missile radius reduced
OR
anti armor missile armor reduction from 3 to 2
For the ghost, their tankiness needs to be reduced. Right now they don't die to lings and tank blings like marauders. I'm not sure if it's their armor or HP that needs to be nerfed to decrease their strength without making them bad, but something needs to change here.
Zergs are also painful to play against in lategame, it's both ways really.
But I'd say it's more of a design observation than balance.
Balance-wise this GSL will be revealing since other pros have started playing the style enough for us to draw some conclusions
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On April 19 2018 03:09 Myrddrael wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 02:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 18 2018 23:08 Boggyb wrote:On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote:
Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game. Who died and gave you a moral mandate? He's not wrong though.
He is totaly right. GG ByuN
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On April 19 2018 04:19 TentativePanda wrote:
Terran in lategame ZvT is both frustrating to watch and play against. This is a balance observation, not a whine. It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree. Ravens are slightly too strong, and so are ghosts. Together they form an army so cost efficient zerg can't even win while heavily out-mining terran. It needs to be fixed.
My suggested changes:
Raven supply increased from 2 to 3
OR
Raven anti armor missile radius reduced
OR
anti armor missile armor reduction from 3 to 2
For the ghost, their tankiness needs to be reduced. Right now they don't die to lings and tank blings like marauders. I'm not sure if it's their armor or HP that needs to be nerfed to decrease their strength without making them bad, but something needs to change here.
Your claims of imbalance are not supported by the 46% TvZ winrate. Terran might be frustrating to watch or face, but it is not imbalanced (as a whole that is, not just the lategame). I agree that the lategame design could use a fix in order to avoid splitmap turtling, but the Raven/Ghost nerfs you suggest would have to be accompanied by compensatory Terran buffs for them to be justified, or corresponding nerfs to Zerg lategame options.
Objective truths come from hard facts, not your own highly subjective feelings. You can't just say " It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree." without any justification and expect people to take your word for it.
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I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime?
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On April 19 2018 06:29 mierin wrote:
I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime?
Comparing Raven/Ghost with 3rax reaper is a false equivalence. One was super earlygame, the other super lategame. By definition there are far fewer factors in play and thus available options in the earlygame. Whereas Zerg was fundamentally limited to X resources when going up against 3rax reaper, the situations in which they face Raven/Ghost are many and varied and far more unique to each game.
Raven/Ghost has its own share of problems, but they are very different than the problems of 3rax reaper.
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On April 19 2018 03:09 Myrddrael wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 02:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 18 2018 23:08 Boggyb wrote:On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote:
Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game. Who died and gave you a moral mandate? He's not wrong though.
Before going around telling people how they should feel, he should tell himself to feel less affronted when people suggest ravens need a nerf.
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On April 19 2018 02:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 23:08 Boggyb wrote:On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote:
Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game. Who died and gave you a moral mandate?
Code A and Proleague.
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On April 19 2018 07:16 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 02:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 18 2018 23:08 Boggyb wrote:On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote:
Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game. Who died and gave you a moral mandate? Code A and Proleague.
I'll give you a call if I find someone defending Life.
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I would say it was pretty clear Elazer was outplaying Byun in every game and the fact he lost is at least partially due to unit imbalance. Both ghosts and ravens are clearly too powerfull.
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On April 19 2018 07:31 Kafka777 wrote:
I would say it was pretty clear Elazer was outplaying Byun in every game and the fact he lost is at least partially due to unit imbalance. Both ghosts and ravens are clearly too powerfull.
On April 19 2018 06:26 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 04:19 TentativePanda wrote:
Terran in lategame ZvT is both frustrating to watch and play against. This is a balance observation, not a whine. It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree. Ravens are slightly too strong, and so are ghosts. Together they form an army so cost efficient zerg can't even win while heavily out-mining terran. It needs to be fixed.
My suggested changes:
Raven supply increased from 2 to 3
OR
Raven anti armor missile radius reduced
OR
anti armor missile armor reduction from 3 to 2
For the ghost, their tankiness needs to be reduced. Right now they don't die to lings and tank blings like marauders. I'm not sure if it's their armor or HP that needs to be nerfed to decrease their strength without making them bad, but something needs to change here. Your claims of imbalance are not supported by the 46% TvZ winrate. Terran might be frustrating to watch or face, but it is not imbalanced (as a whole that is, not just the lategame). I agree that the lategame design could use a fix in order to avoid splitmap turtling, but the Raven/Ghost nerfs you suggest would have to be accompanied by compensatory Terran buffs for them to be justified, or corresponding nerfs to Zerg lategame options. Objective truths come from hard facts, not your own highly subjective feelings. You can't just say " It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree." without any justification and expect people to take your word for it.
You aren't saying anthing the other guy didn't say, so you're just as wrong.
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On April 19 2018 07:31 Kafka777 wrote:
I would say it was pretty clear Elazer was outplaying Byun in every game and the fact he lost is at least partially due to unit imbalance. Both ghosts and ravens are clearly too powerfull.
That attack on the 4th in game 4 was an awful, awful, awful decision. I'm not sure I've ever seen a Terran win a game against Zerg after losing a fight like that. They almost never have a chance to even make a game out of it. If there is racial imbalance, it is in favor of Zerg.
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Im not saying Elazer played perfect games or did not make mistakes. Perhaps he could have won without making any mistakes. However he was better in these games than Byun.
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On April 19 2018 08:04 Kafka777 wrote:
Im not saying Elazer played perfect games or did not make mistakes. Perhaps he could have won without making any mistakes. However he was better in these games than Byun.
Claims like that require evidence. And "outplays" is usually a pretty subjective measure, at that. Boggyb cited evidence of Elazer's mistakes. Byun obviously made mistakes too, but you have to at least cite them instead of just making sweeping unsubstantiated claims.
Otherwise it's pure whine.
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Instead of focusing on mistakes, the question I'd ask is "What did Elazer due to deserve the win prior to ghosts and ravens entering the field?".
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On April 19 2018 06:38 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 06:29 mierin wrote:
I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime? Comparing Raven/Ghost with 3rax reaper is a false equivalence. One was super earlygame, the other super lategame. By definition there are far fewer factors in play and thus available options in the earlygame. Whereas Zerg was fundamentally limited to X resources when going up against 3rax reaper, the situations in which they face Raven/Ghost are many and varied and far more unique to each game. Raven/Ghost has its own share of problems, but they are very different than the problems of 3rax reaper.
It's not a false equivalence. Can you name any other players who consistently dominate any race in any stage of the game versus all the best people in the world at Starcraft II?
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On April 19 2018 09:08 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On April 19 2018 06:29 mierin wrote:
I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime? Comparing Raven/Ghost with 3rax reaper is a false equivalence. One was super earlygame, the other super lategame. By definition there are far fewer factors in play and thus available options in the earlygame. Whereas Zerg was fundamentally limited to X resources when going up against 3rax reaper, the situations in which they face Raven/Ghost are many and varied and far more unique to each game. Raven/Ghost has its own share of problems, but they are very different than the problems of 3rax reaper. It's not a false equivalence. Can you name any other players who consistently dominate any race in any stage of the game versus all the best people in the world at Starcraft II?
The name for any player who dominated every race vs all the best people in the world is bonjwa.
SC2 has never had a bonjwa.
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