Poll: Will Elazer the foreigner be able to win a map?
Yes. He might be able to win one or more maps. (17)
71%
No. He is going to get rekted. (7)
29%
24 total votes
Your vote: Will Elazer the foreigner be able to win a map?
(Vote): Yes. He might be able to win one or more maps. (Vote): No. He is going to get rekted.
Elazer won 3 maps last year in season 3 and finished 3rd in his group. His form doesn't appear to be as good as it was last year, but his group isn't a murder's row.
I don't think ByuN will lose to these two Zergs. Elazer has a pretty decent record (49%) against KR Terrans over the last year, but he fails in the meaningful matches against the bigger names. Tale as old as time for foreign Zergs I guess though.
Poll: Will Elazer the foreigner be able to win a map?
Yes. He might be able to win one or more maps. (17)
71%
No. He is going to get rekted. (7)
29%
24 total votes
Your vote: Will Elazer the foreigner be able to win a map?
(Vote): Yes. He might be able to win one or more maps. (Vote): No. He is going to get rekted.
The most important is that foreigner are eliminated.
It's true. I think it would be a great step forward if we could completely remove them from the ro32 to the ro16.
Yeah, a great step forward to kill the Korean scene even more
After a great fire burns out the scene, the destruction allows a newer, and greater scene to grow in its place.
Also, the Korean scene currently takes over 50% of the total SC2 prize pool, so I think it's alright for now. Also, and this is a second side note, Leenock, Byun, and Classic are still doing pretty well for themselves.
Poll: Will Elazer the foreigner be able to win a map?
Yes. He might be able to win one or more maps. (17)
71%
No. He is going to get rekted. (7)
29%
24 total votes
Your vote: Will Elazer the foreigner be able to win a map?
(Vote): Yes. He might be able to win one or more maps. (Vote): No. He is going to get rekted.
The most important is that foreigner are eliminated.
It's true. I think it would be a great step forward if we could completely remove them from the ro32 to the ro16.
Yeah, a great step forward to kill the Korean scene even more
Yeah, people need to realize foreigners in the GSL benefit the league a lot more than having more Koreans in.
Oh, I misunderstood then. I thought that the author meant eliminating them from RO32 and move them into RO16. If (s)he meant removing them completely then I agree Let them enjoy the region lock they have outside of Korea
The nice part about this group is that I'm happy with basically any result.
I love Byun and Leenock from the old days, Classic is the best in the group so his advancing is kind of a pre-ordained thing and Elazer is a foreigner.
So no matter what, 2 of these guys have to advance. I'm happy either way.
That said, I'll take Classic and Byun with my head. Byun vs Zerg is a different animal than his abysmal TvP lately.
On April 18 2018 18:56 Latr02 wrote: I'm starting to appreciate PvZ more. Mostly because I'm starting to think of it like TvZ
So classic just did a marine-hellbat attack?
I think he won the game before he unveiled his dumb armory but yes. Also just got flood controlled for quite a while so that's a fun TL experience when trying to respond to someone
On April 18 2018 19:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Wow that last game from Classic. Just multitasked him to death, cool to see.
It looked like "So he won a game against me, I must show him my true form and full power" move
Actually it looked to me like Classic hit a bit of desperation after his DTs were scouted.
There's little chance IMO that he planned to do double prism archon drops with shield batteries at the start of that game, he was kind of forced into it after his prism got scouted and Elazer had his detection prepped. If Classic doesn't find damage in that situation he's screwed because he invested so much into Dark Templar that don't get value.
On April 18 2018 19:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Wow that last game from Classic. Just multitasked him to death, cool to see.
It looked like "So he won a game against me, I must show him my true form and full power" move
Actually it looked to me like Classic hit a bit of desperation after his DTs were scouted.
There's little chance IMO that he planned to do double prism archon drops with shield batteries at the start of that game, he was kind of forced into it after his prism got scouted and Elazer had his detection prepped. If Classic doesn't find damage in that situation he's screwed because he invested so much into Dark Templar that don't get value.
On April 18 2018 19:36 Olli wrote: I mean Byun's micro isn't bad or anything, it's just the overhype that makes me mock this
Is this specific to Byun ? I heard also a lot about TY multitask, Maru's control, INno's macro, and with a lot of toss recently "sick storm" and 'huge raven connexion'' with every single terran that use Raven
On April 18 2018 19:36 Olli wrote: I mean Byun's micro isn't bad or anything, it's just the overhype that makes me mock this
Is this specific to Byun ? I heard also a lot about TY multitask, Maru's control, INno's macro, and with a lot of toss recently "sick storm"
It's just lazy casting and shoehorning of players into a few set narratives that never change even if players do or if the narratives don't fit at all.
On April 18 2018 19:36 Olli wrote: I mean Byun's micro isn't bad or anything, it's just the overhype that makes me mock this
Is this specific to Byun ? I heard also a lot about TY multitask, Maru's control, INno's macro, and with a lot of toss recently "sick storm"
It's just lazy casting and shoehorning of players into a few set narratives that never change even if players do or if the narratives don't fit at all.
And byun being a fan favorite hes just bound to have more haters as well
On April 18 2018 19:36 Olli wrote: I mean Byun's micro isn't bad or anything, it's just the overhype that makes me mock this
Is this specific to Byun ? I heard also a lot about TY multitask, Maru's control, INno's macro, and with a lot of toss recently "sick storm"
It's just lazy casting and shoehorning of players into a few set narratives that never change even if players do or if the narratives don't fit at all.
Right? And yet Artur gets type casted into trashing Koreans and yet he chucked on Elazer in this very thread.
On April 18 2018 20:07 Heartland wrote: I really thought the hand-eye thing was a real thing. Isn't it?
I'd say so, too. That's why the piano-player is a bad analogy. A pianist doesn't have to react to stuff, he just has to play a rehearsed piece. But to be fair: "the hands are slow" isn't exact either, because it's not the hands that are slow but the hand-eye coordination like you said.
On April 18 2018 20:34 Caelum93 wrote: I hope Byun can get the 2nd place we need more terrans...In the End it doesnt matter they have to play against Protoss
I like the reasoning that ByuN overextends and loses units because his micro is so good it makes him overly aggressive. It has nothing to do with poor decisionmaking or, god forbid, micro mistakes.
Good game from Elazer in the first 12 or so minutes. When he started trying to spore push while teching a lot and not having Broodlords yet without the units to back it up, he made a fatal mistake.
On April 18 2018 21:50 HolydaKing wrote: Good game from Elazer in the first 12 or so minutes. When he started trying to spore push while teching a lot and not having Broodlords yet without the units to back it up, he made a fatal mistake.
His fatal mistake was playing late game when he isn't Serral
On April 18 2018 21:50 HolydaKing wrote: Good game from Elazer in the first 12 or so minutes. When he started trying to spore push while teching a lot and not having Broodlords yet without the units to back it up, he made a fatal mistake.
His fatal mistake was playing late game when he isn't Serral
On April 18 2018 21:50 HolydaKing wrote: Good game from Elazer in the first 12 or so minutes. When he started trying to spore push while teching a lot and not having Broodlords yet without the units to back it up, he made a fatal mistake.
His fatal mistake was playing late game when he isn't Serral
On April 18 2018 21:54 fronkschnonk wrote: Would blinding clouds have done it for elazer in that weird CC/tank/ghost vs spore/ling/blord fight?
You can still snipe through blinding clouds, so not really. What Elazer needed was not losing THAT many units before BLs are out. He had barely any support for them once they were.
On April 18 2018 21:50 HolydaKing wrote: Good game from Elazer in the first 12 or so minutes. When he started trying to spore push while teching a lot and not having Broodlords yet without the units to back it up, he made a fatal mistake.
His fatal mistake was playing late game when he isn't Serral
On April 18 2018 21:50 HolydaKing wrote: Good game from Elazer in the first 12 or so minutes. When he started trying to spore push while teching a lot and not having Broodlords yet without the units to back it up, he made a fatal mistake.
His fatal mistake was playing late game when he isn't Serral
Maru 3 - 0 Serral.
Byun =/= Maru
That's true, but Serral hasn't shown dominance in late game ZvT vs. ANY code-s level player.
I agree with Elazer's decision to push, but maybe not right into the teeth of the Terran siege? If Zerg could win that fight, the matchup would be insanely imbalanced.
On April 18 2018 21:50 HolydaKing wrote: Good game from Elazer in the first 12 or so minutes. When he started trying to spore push while teching a lot and not having Broodlords yet without the units to back it up, he made a fatal mistake.
His fatal mistake was playing late game when he isn't Serral
Maru 3 - 0 Serral.
Byun =/= Maru
That's true, but Serral hasn't shown dominance in late game ZvT vs. ANY code-s level player.
Not sure if anyone expects Serral to dominate in that kind of a match-up even if he actually played against them,.
Indeed. That Elazer is still in this game is disgusting. If a Terran player were to take as awful of a fight as Elazer did when pushing ByuN's 4th, it would be an instant loss.
On April 18 2018 22:24 Fyzar wrote: Are infestors not an option in this matchup? With his gas bank like tihs
Elazer has used a bunch of infestors. EMPs and snipes have hampered that a lot.
On April 18 2018 22:23 Kommander wrote: I wonder, what was Blizzard thinking when they said that they don't think Terrans would mass Ravens anyway? lol
I don't think what they *were* thinking was the problem to be honest.
Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
this is just sad game play
Yeah, and using bunch of free units that doesn't cost even the energy isn't??? C'mon. Both sides are using rather disgusting ubnits, not just terran.
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
this is just sad game play
Yeah, and using bunch of free units that doesn't cost even the energy isn't??? C'mon. Both sides are using rather disgusting ubnits, not just terran.
I never said it is just terran, you just assume that as does boggyb
Elazer really shoulda used the rock blocking the ramp to attack byun's main. spreading creep to that expo, and adding spores/spines on that side as well before byun got the right corner would have been a much better positional play.
that said,
this is really dumb late game and is horrible to spectate
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
this is just sad game play
Yeah, and using bunch of free units that doesn't cost even the energy isn't??? C'mon. Both sides are using rather disgusting ubnits, not just terran.
The reason he is using free units is because he can't do jack shit with anything else against Marines, Ghosts and Ravens unless he wants to trade super inefficiently.
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
this is just sad game play
Yeah, and using bunch of free units that doesn't cost even the energy isn't??? C'mon. Both sides are using rather disgusting ubnits, not just terran.
I never said it is just terran, you just assume that as does boggyb
your biases are showing I guess
Yes, because I hate swarm hosts more than energy units. I've never hidden it, swarm hosts and brood lords are the worst units that Blizzard came with. HotS beta included.
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
this is just sad game play
Yeah, and using bunch of free units that doesn't cost even the energy isn't??? C'mon. Both sides are using rather disgusting ubnits, not just terran.
I never said it is just terran, you just assume that as does boggyb
your biases are showing I guess
Considering Zerg has played like this for years (assuming they deserve an auto win if they get hive), it is reasonable to assume you're complaining about Terran.
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
this is just sad game play
Yeah, and using bunch of free units that doesn't cost even the energy isn't??? C'mon. Both sides are using rather disgusting ubnits, not just terran.
The reason he is using free units is because he can't do jack shit with anything else against Marines, Ghosts and Ravens unless he wants to trade super inefficiently.
I know, but as long as Zergs have these units(BL included) Blizzard won't come up with new ones. Well, honestly, i don't think Blizzard will come with any such drastic changes. But hey, at least I can hope
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
this is just sad game play
Yeah, and using bunch of free units that doesn't cost even the energy isn't??? C'mon. Both sides are using rather disgusting ubnits, not just terran.
I never said it is just terran, you just assume that as does boggyb
your biases are showing I guess
Yes, because I hate swarm hosts more than energy units. I've never hidden it, swarm hosts and brood lords are the worst units that Blizzard came with. HotS beta included.
Then it is senseless getting into any kind of argument with you.
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
this is just sad game play
Yeah, and using bunch of free units that doesn't cost even the energy isn't??? C'mon. Both sides are using rather disgusting ubnits, not just terran.
The reason he is using free units is because he can't do jack shit with anything else against Marines, Ghosts and Ravens unless he wants to trade super inefficiently.
I know, but as long as Zergs have these units(BL included) Blizzard won't come up with new ones. Well, honestly, i don't think Blizzard will come with any such drastic changes. But hey, at least I can hope
On April 18 2018 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Mass raven is not a problem. Late game should not be auto-win for Zerg. Don't let them get there and don't throw away your army fighting into a Terran siege.
you know, it's not just about balance, it's about sitting in your base accumulating mana as well
this is just sad game play
Yeah, and using bunch of free units that doesn't cost even the energy isn't??? C'mon. Both sides are using rather disgusting ubnits, not just terran.
I never said it is just terran, you just assume that as does boggyb
your biases are showing I guess
Considering Zerg has played like this for years (assuming they deserve an auto win if they get hive), it is reasonable to assume you're complaining about Terran.
No it isn't because I know I wasn't. I was commenting on the lame waiting game we had to endure. I am not racial biased I just have a zerg icon. You clearly are biased and as such hard to take seriously.
On April 18 2018 22:36 ArtyK wrote: Raven good unit
Anti armor missile giving -3 armor makes marines like godly. Impossible to engage with anything while AA is up.
Still was a fun game. Elazer did well enough and Byun really had a tough time, seeing how happy he looked when he finally made it through the last defense.
I really liked Elazer's Infestor and Viper use, I've seen alot worse these last couple of weeks.
But why in the world does he keep sacrificing all his stuff into the same fortified position? Build a stupid nydus network, get a bunch of droppalords and harass the main/the expansion points while defending in the middle with your spores(+spines). That way the swarmhosts would've atleast done something
On April 18 2018 22:49 Yomi-no-Kuni wrote: I really liked Elazer's Infestor and Viper use, I've seen alot worse these last couple of weeks.
But why in the world does he keep sacrificing all his stuff into the same fortified position? Build a stupid nydus network, get a bunch of droppalords and harass the main/the expansion points while defending in the middle with your spores(+spines). That way the swarmhosts would've atleast done something
I assume he was trying to establish that position in an attempt to deny ByuN his final base. Had he succeeded, he might have won the game.
On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote: Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though
Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game.
Elazer just seemed to stressed in the last game. Never tried to nydus or mass lings to harass. Kept sending the locusts into the same positions that were fortified every time. ByuN isn't Maru level lategame right now, he was making a lot of mistakes.
this seems to be a common problem for foreigner zergs. not trying to shit on foreigners but they seem clueless in lategame ZvT since there isnt really any top terran that plays EU ladder besides uthermal. when serral streamed, he even said that he has 0 practice against ghost raven (referencing maru vs serral wesg) since games are decided much earlier due to skill difference
On April 18 2018 23:56 Obamarauder wrote: this seems to be a common problem for foreigner zergs. not trying to shit on foreigners but they seem clueless in lategame ZvT since there isnt really any top terran that plays EU ladder besides uthermal. when serral streamed, he even said that he has 0 practice against ghost raven (referencing maru vs serral wesg) since games are decided much earlier due to skill difference
Even uthermal stays in korea nowadays I think. The only terran threat on EU is heromarine.
Considering the best zergs in korea can struggle against the elite terrans (soO, byul, rogue etc) and they've been practicing with them since the start, I can't imagine the foreigners catching up any time soon.
On April 18 2018 23:56 Obamarauder wrote: this seems to be a common problem for foreigner zergs. not trying to shit on foreigners but they seem clueless in lategame ZvT since there isnt really any top terran that plays EU ladder besides uthermal. when serral streamed, he even said that he has 0 practice against ghost raven (referencing maru vs serral wesg) since games are decided much earlier due to skill difference
Even uthermal stays in korea nowadays I think. The only terran threat on EU is heromarine.
Considering the best zergs in korea can struggle against the elite terrans (soO, byul, rogue etc) and they've been practicing with them since the start, I can't imagine the foreigners catching up any time soon.
True, but Elazer put on a good show even though ByuN isn't in his best form just yet. Will be interesting to see how this translates to his play vs foreign terrans in the WCS circuit.
On April 18 2018 23:56 Obamarauder wrote: this seems to be a common problem for foreigner zergs. not trying to shit on foreigners but they seem clueless in lategame ZvT since there isnt really any top terran that plays EU ladder besides uthermal. when serral streamed, he even said that he has 0 practice against ghost raven (referencing maru vs serral wesg) since games are decided much earlier due to skill difference
Even uthermal stays in korea nowadays I think. The only terran threat on EU is heromarine.
Considering the best zergs in korea can struggle against the elite terrans (soO, byul, rogue etc) and they've been practicing with them since the start, I can't imagine the foreigners catching up any time soon.
True, but Elazer put on a good show even though ByuN isn't in his best form just yet. Will be interesting to see how this translates to his play vs foreign terrans in the WCS circuit.
I have my doubts that foreign Terrans are going to be experts on this late game, as its even difficult for Terrans like Byun to control properly.
That said, Byun hasnt been known for his late game TvZ. I'd expect Elazer to show much less capability vs some of the other late game Terrans like Maru, TY or even Gumiho.
On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote: Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though
Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game.
On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote: Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though
Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game.
On April 18 2018 23:56 Obamarauder wrote: this seems to be a common problem for foreigner zergs. not trying to shit on foreigners but they seem clueless in lategame ZvT since there isnt really any top terran that plays EU ladder besides uthermal. when serral streamed, he even said that he has 0 practice against ghost raven (referencing maru vs serral wesg) since games are decided much earlier due to skill difference
I haven't seen a Korean Zerg who can beat it either without the "not letting them get there" argument.
Terran in lategame ZvT is both frustrating to watch and play against. This is a balance observation, not a whine. It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree. Ravens are slightly too strong, and so are ghosts. Together they form an army so cost efficient zerg can't even win while heavily out-mining terran. It needs to be fixed. My suggested changes: Raven supply increased from 2 to 3 OR Raven anti armor missile radius reduced OR anti armor missile armor reduction from 3 to 2
For the ghost, their tankiness needs to be reduced. Right now they don't die to lings and tank blings like marauders. I'm not sure if it's their armor or HP that needs to be nerfed to decrease their strength without making them bad, but something needs to change here.
On April 19 2018 04:19 TentativePanda wrote: Terran in lategame ZvT is both frustrating to watch and play against. This is a balance observation, not a whine. It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree. Ravens are slightly too strong, and so are ghosts. Together they form an army so cost efficient zerg can't even win while heavily out-mining terran. It needs to be fixed. My suggested changes: Raven supply increased from 2 to 3 OR Raven anti armor missile radius reduced OR anti armor missile armor reduction from 3 to 2
For the ghost, their tankiness needs to be reduced. Right now they don't die to lings and tank blings like marauders. I'm not sure if it's their armor or HP that needs to be nerfed to decrease their strength without making them bad, but something needs to change here.
Zergs are also painful to play against in lategame, it's both ways really. But I'd say it's more of a design observation than balance.
Balance-wise this GSL will be revealing since other pros have started playing the style enough for us to draw some conclusions
On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote: Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though
Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game.
On April 19 2018 04:19 TentativePanda wrote: Terran in lategame ZvT is both frustrating to watch and play against. This is a balance observation, not a whine. It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree. Ravens are slightly too strong, and so are ghosts. Together they form an army so cost efficient zerg can't even win while heavily out-mining terran. It needs to be fixed. My suggested changes: Raven supply increased from 2 to 3 OR Raven anti armor missile radius reduced OR anti armor missile armor reduction from 3 to 2
For the ghost, their tankiness needs to be reduced. Right now they don't die to lings and tank blings like marauders. I'm not sure if it's their armor or HP that needs to be nerfed to decrease their strength without making them bad, but something needs to change here.
Your claims of imbalance are not supported by the 46% TvZ winrate. Terran might be frustrating to watch or face, but it is not imbalanced (as a whole that is, not just the lategame). I agree that the lategame design could use a fix in order to avoid splitmap turtling, but the Raven/Ghost nerfs you suggest would have to be accompanied by compensatory Terran buffs for them to be justified, or corresponding nerfs to Zerg lategame options.
Objective truths come from hard facts, not your own highly subjective feelings. You can't just say " It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree." without any justification and expect people to take your word for it.
I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime?
On April 19 2018 06:29 mierin wrote: I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime?
Comparing Raven/Ghost with 3rax reaper is a false equivalence. One was super earlygame, the other super lategame. By definition there are far fewer factors in play and thus available options in the earlygame. Whereas Zerg was fundamentally limited to X resources when going up against 3rax reaper, the situations in which they face Raven/Ghost are many and varied and far more unique to each game.
Raven/Ghost has its own share of problems, but they are very different than the problems of 3rax reaper.
On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote: Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though
Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game.
Who died and gave you a moral mandate?
He's not wrong though.
Before going around telling people how they should feel, he should tell himself to feel less affronted when people suggest ravens need a nerf.
On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote: Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though
Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game.
On April 18 2018 22:52 Mithriel wrote: Man, feel bad for elazer, he should have advanced. Perhaps nerves got to him, ah well happy a Terran advances though
Don't feel bad for a non-Korean losing in the GSL. Elazer can and will attend WCS Circuit events. Koreans who lose or don't qualify have to sit around contemplating how much longer they can afford to play the game.
Who died and gave you a moral mandate?
Code A and Proleague.
I'll give you a call if I find someone defending Life.
I would say it was pretty clear Elazer was outplaying Byun in every game and the fact he lost is at least partially due to unit imbalance. Both ghosts and ravens are clearly too powerfull.
On April 19 2018 07:31 Kafka777 wrote: I would say it was pretty clear Elazer was outplaying Byun in every game and the fact he lost is at least partially due to unit imbalance. Both ghosts and ravens are clearly too powerfull.
On April 19 2018 04:19 TentativePanda wrote: Terran in lategame ZvT is both frustrating to watch and play against. This is a balance observation, not a whine. It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree. Ravens are slightly too strong, and so are ghosts. Together they form an army so cost efficient zerg can't even win while heavily out-mining terran. It needs to be fixed. My suggested changes: Raven supply increased from 2 to 3 OR Raven anti armor missile radius reduced OR anti armor missile armor reduction from 3 to 2
For the ghost, their tankiness needs to be reduced. Right now they don't die to lings and tank blings like marauders. I'm not sure if it's their armor or HP that needs to be nerfed to decrease their strength without making them bad, but something needs to change here.
Your claims of imbalance are not supported by the 46% TvZ winrate. Terran might be frustrating to watch or face, but it is not imbalanced (as a whole that is, not just the lategame). I agree that the lategame design could use a fix in order to avoid splitmap turtling, but the Raven/Ghost nerfs you suggest would have to be accompanied by compensatory Terran buffs for them to be justified, or corresponding nerfs to Zerg lategame options.
Objective truths come from hard facts, not your own highly subjective feelings. You can't just say " It's objectively true, and only Terran players will disagree." without any justification and expect people to take your word for it.
You aren't saying anthing the other guy didn't say, so you're just as wrong.
On April 19 2018 07:31 Kafka777 wrote: I would say it was pretty clear Elazer was outplaying Byun in every game and the fact he lost is at least partially due to unit imbalance. Both ghosts and ravens are clearly too powerfull.
That attack on the 4th in game 4 was an awful, awful, awful decision. I'm not sure I've ever seen a Terran win a game against Zerg after losing a fight like that. They almost never have a chance to even make a game out of it. If there is racial imbalance, it is in favor of Zerg.
Im not saying Elazer played perfect games or did not make mistakes. Perhaps he could have won without making any mistakes. However he was better in these games than Byun.
On April 19 2018 08:04 Kafka777 wrote: Im not saying Elazer played perfect games or did not make mistakes. Perhaps he could have won without making any mistakes. However he was better in these games than Byun.
Claims like that require evidence. And "outplays" is usually a pretty subjective measure, at that. Boggyb cited evidence of Elazer's mistakes. Byun obviously made mistakes too, but you have to at least cite them instead of just making sweeping unsubstantiated claims.
On April 19 2018 06:29 mierin wrote: I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime?
Comparing Raven/Ghost with 3rax reaper is a false equivalence. One was super earlygame, the other super lategame. By definition there are far fewer factors in play and thus available options in the earlygame. Whereas Zerg was fundamentally limited to X resources when going up against 3rax reaper, the situations in which they face Raven/Ghost are many and varied and far more unique to each game.
Raven/Ghost has its own share of problems, but they are very different than the problems of 3rax reaper.
It's not a false equivalence. Can you name any other players who consistently dominate any race in any stage of the game versus all the best people in the world at Starcraft II?
On April 19 2018 06:29 mierin wrote: I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime?
Comparing Raven/Ghost with 3rax reaper is a false equivalence. One was super earlygame, the other super lategame. By definition there are far fewer factors in play and thus available options in the earlygame. Whereas Zerg was fundamentally limited to X resources when going up against 3rax reaper, the situations in which they face Raven/Ghost are many and varied and far more unique to each game.
Raven/Ghost has its own share of problems, but they are very different than the problems of 3rax reaper.
It's not a false equivalence. Can you name any other players who consistently dominate any race in any stage of the game versus all the best people in the world at Starcraft II?
The name for any player who dominated every race vs all the best people in the world is bonjwa.
On April 19 2018 06:29 mierin wrote: I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime?
Comparing Raven/Ghost with 3rax reaper is a false equivalence. One was super earlygame, the other super lategame. By definition there are far fewer factors in play and thus available options in the earlygame. Whereas Zerg was fundamentally limited to X resources when going up against 3rax reaper, the situations in which they face Raven/Ghost are many and varied and far more unique to each game.
Raven/Ghost has its own share of problems, but they are very different than the problems of 3rax reaper.
It's not a false equivalence. Can you name any other players who consistently dominate any race in any stage of the game versus all the best people in the world at Starcraft II?
The name for any player who dominated every race vs all the best people in the world is bonjwa.
SC2 has never had a bonjwa.
You are confusing "any" with "every". I never said "every". I said "any."
EDIT: I'm sorry as I know English is my first language so I shouldn't assume. What I was trying to say was, can you point to any player of a particular race, who can defeat an opponent in any of the early/mid/late game with the same strategy consistently (like Maru raven/ghost endgame works vs. zerg endgame, and like Byun reapers early game beat zerg early game).
On April 19 2018 09:30 juicyjames wrote: Was any of this recommended?
Honestly...it depends on who you cheer for. Classic? Watch all his games. Leenock...don't watch and drink yourself into oblivion. Elazer...watch his games vs. Leenock and game 1 vs. Byun. Byun...just watch the last series.
As far as amazingly played games...not sure any of them deserve that.
On April 19 2018 06:29 mierin wrote: I am curious about something. When Byun (I believe) single handedly got reapers nerfed because of his singular skill with them during the early game, did everyone object to that?
Byun was a great player, but it got boring watching him dismantle zerg after zerg with his reaper tactics.
The same (I argue) can be said for Maru...while he is an insanely skilled player, is his mastery of ghost/raven dismantling every zerg player who gets to that point okay? If so, why is it more okay than what Byun was doing way back when? As a tertiary point, do people believe that with enough time and practice zergs could be able to beat what Byun was doing back in his prime?
Comparing Raven/Ghost with 3rax reaper is a false equivalence. One was super earlygame, the other super lategame. By definition there are far fewer factors in play and thus available options in the earlygame. Whereas Zerg was fundamentally limited to X resources when going up against 3rax reaper, the situations in which they face Raven/Ghost are many and varied and far more unique to each game.
Raven/Ghost has its own share of problems, but they are very different than the problems of 3rax reaper.
It's not a false equivalence. Can you name any other players who consistently dominate any race in any stage of the game versus all the best people in the world at Starcraft II?
The name for any player who dominated every race vs all the best people in the world is bonjwa.
SC2 has never had a bonjwa.
You are confusing "any" with "every". I never said "every". I said "any."
EDIT: I'm sorry as I know English is my first language so I shouldn't assume. What I was trying to say was, can you point to any player of a particular race, who can defeat an opponent in any of the early/mid/late game with the same strategy consistently (like Maru raven/ghost endgame works vs. zerg endgame, and like Byun reapers early game beat zerg early game).
English is not my first language, as it so happens, though I do think I've used it for long enough to call myself fluent.
I would argue in your case that saying "any race in any stage" could be interpreted to mean "every race in every stage" due to the fact that "any" is frequently used as a colloquialism in that context.
You are correct in that Ɐ != ∃ but the technical meaning has degenerated into colloquial ambiguity. Which is to say, you are technically correct. The best kind of correct.
e,g. If my friend says "I can solve any problem on this assignment," I would not assume that he can only solve a single problem on the assignment, but rather the entire thing.
You are correct in that Ɐ != ∃ but the technical meaning has degenerated into colloquial ambiguity. Which is to say, you are technically correct. The best kind of correct.
He isn't correct. "any" is universal quantification, not existential quantification. "The proposition holds for any x" is equivalent to "The proposition holds for all x".
On April 19 2018 11:50 Shellshock wrote: Nice didn’t actually expect ByuN to get through
It's really surprising how many people thought this. Even in not peak form Byun shouldn't be losing to Elazer or Leenock. The marine pushes he does every game are more than enough for those guys.
On April 19 2018 11:50 Shellshock wrote: Nice didn’t actually expect ByuN to get through
It's really surprising how many people thought this. Even in not peak form Byun shouldn't be losing to Elazer or Leenock. The marine pushes he does every game are more than enough for those guys.
On April 19 2018 11:50 Shellshock wrote: Nice didn’t actually expect ByuN to get through
It's really surprising how many people thought this. Even in not peak form Byun shouldn't be losing to Elazer or Leenock. The marine pushes he does every game are more than enough for those guys.
As evidenced by 2 30min games vs Elazer
Yeah, I felt like his series vs Elazer was pretty close overall. Seemed to me like it could have gone either way.
On April 19 2018 11:50 Shellshock wrote: Nice didn’t actually expect ByuN to get through
It's really surprising how many people thought this. Even in not peak form Byun shouldn't be losing to Elazer or Leenock. The marine pushes he does every game are more than enough for those guys.
As evidenced by 2 30min games vs Elazer
Yeah, I felt like his series vs Elazer was pretty close overall. Seemed to me like it could have gone either way.
it wasn`t close in both losing games Elazer lost twice as much resourses as ByuN did, ByuN could finish it quicker but didn`t wanna be too risky there
On April 19 2018 11:50 Shellshock wrote: Nice didn’t actually expect ByuN to get through
It's really surprising how many people thought this. Even in not peak form Byun shouldn't be losing to Elazer or Leenock. The marine pushes he does every game are more than enough for those guys.
As evidenced by 2 30min games vs Elazer
I should have clarified. The marine pushes he does every game are usually more than enough for guys like Elazer or Leenock. He should have been heavily favoured to beat them.
The series against Elazer was surprisingly close though. Probably because they're both not particularly good in the lategame and couldn't finish eachother of.
On April 19 2018 11:50 Shellshock wrote: Nice didn’t actually expect ByuN to get through
It's really surprising how many people thought this. Even in not peak form Byun shouldn't be losing to Elazer or Leenock. The marine pushes he does every game are more than enough for those guys.
As evidenced by 2 30min games vs Elazer
Yeah, I felt like his series vs Elazer was pretty close overall. Seemed to me like it could have gone either way.
it wasn`t close in both losing games Elazer lost twice as much resourses as ByuN did, ByuN could finish it quicker but didn`t wanna be too risky there
The resources lost at the end of the game doesn't tell the whole story. A lot of the resources were lost after the game was mostly decided. Prior to that, Elazer kept it fairly close and had a fighting chance. If it's not 'close' you will lose before you even get to that point in the game.
EPT
2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code S
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Let them enjoy the region lock they have outside of Korea
