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I think koreans just got caught off guard man...That is the result of having noregret as coach.You don't see korean zergs cheesing daily ya know.So i think no balance issues involving here in this ro16 day one , scarlett played well,well deserved win.
But i won't say PvZ is balanced currently
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On February 11 2018 07:10 KelsierSC wrote:
I think scarlett has the best vest 5 change of a foreign galaxy win because there is no Korean where I'm like. Oh shit that Korean analises scarlett. Like mc did to jinro.i think she can beat anyone with no fear.
That mech game on Scrap Station though, what a game!
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
And Scarlett is taking more and more Korean money while Koreans cannot into WCS  Region lock needed.
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On February 11 2018 19:37 deacon.frost wrote:And Scarlett is taking more and more Korean money while Koreans cannot into WCS Region lock needed.
This is exactly why I cheered against Major despite the fact that I kinda like him, and hope that Scarlett will get eliminated. Region lock is so stupid.
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Congrats to both Scarlett and Zest - well played.
Still I find it hard to do not notice that the results might have been affected by current balance which is a bit sad cause honestly I do not want to belittle players achievements but this is the feeling I got watching the games.
Anyway still really well played and good luck in further stages 
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On February 11 2018 10:56 MaxField wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2018 06:41 Fango wrote:On February 11 2018 06:33 monkeyfetus wrote:On February 11 2018 06:16 Fango wrote:On February 11 2018 05:27 monkeyfetus wrote:On February 10 2018 21:32 Gurbak wrote:On February 10 2018 19:47 Vanillatoss wrote:
I wonder what kind of an argument pvnsp is going to provide to make Scarlett's win less important or glorious than it really is...
the imagination of koreans elitist to minimize foreigners victories always amaze me here even if she wins the tournament they will find a way to say it's not really a victory IMO, a big part of it is that Scarlett's skill at multi-pronged harrass taxes her opponent's micro and invites mistakes. When she forces errors and skillfully capitalizes on her opponents mistakes (forced or unforced), her detractors then point to that to cheapen her victory, instead of as evidence of her skill. Lol how much multipronged harass went into roach rushing or baneling busting? People detract from Scarlett's victories because she used cheese in most of the games, and zerg in general is very strong right now. Don't make up reasons to try and make Scarlett's win seem more deserverd. Of course she deserved to win, she played very well, but at least be honest about it. Yeah, yeah, when she wins short games it's because she's a dirty cheeser and when she wins long games it's because her opponents are bad. Whatever. The results speak for themselves. If the results speak for themselves why do you have to make up some trash about her multipronged harass forcing mistakes? It's actually baffling why so many people are denying that Scarlett cheesed to win. There's nothing wrong with cheesing, the aim is to win not to play a normal game. On February 11 2018 06:39 phodacbiet wrote:On February 11 2018 06:16 Fango wrote:On February 11 2018 05:27 monkeyfetus wrote:On February 10 2018 21:32 Gurbak wrote:On February 10 2018 19:47 Vanillatoss wrote:
I wonder what kind of an argument pvnsp is going to provide to make Scarlett's win less important or glorious than it really is...
the imagination of koreans elitist to minimize foreigners victories always amaze me here even if she wins the tournament they will find a way to say it's not really a victory IMO, a big part of it is that Scarlett's skill at multi-pronged harrass taxes her opponent's micro and invites mistakes. When she forces errors and skillfully capitalizes on her opponents mistakes (forced or unforced), her detractors then point to that to cheapen her victory, instead of as evidence of her skill. Lol how much multipronged harass went into roach rushing or baneling busting? People detract from Scarlett's victories because she used cheese in most of the games, and zerg in general is very strong right now. Don't make up reasons to try and make Scarlett's win seem more deserverd. Of course she deserved to win, she played very well, but at least be honest about it. If you are in the GSL and have trouble holding ladder cheeses then it's your problem, not the cheeser's. It's similar to how Koreans used to play versus foreigners, with lots of aggression and cheese because foreigner micro/macro was not up to par. If Zest/Innovation wanted to beat Scarlett in a long game, they should've done a better job preparing versus cheese. What relevence does that have? I never said Scarlett didn't play well or deserve to win. My only issue is with those that claim Scarlett didn't cheese and won with superior macro/multitasking or whatever I just got to point out that "Cheese" has grown to pretty much mean "this player is attacking the other player before 7 minutes" and by that definition, Scarlett cheesed so much. In reality, she was very aggressive, and put herelf in a position where she probably needed to damage her opponent to not get behind. Never did it seem that she was 100% "ALL IN" despite what commentators may say. Truth be told, every time someone builds army-units, they have to do something with them in order to justify them or else they are "behind". The reason why I don't feel like Scarlett (or most players honestly) was super cheesy was because even when her quick aggression failed to kill her opponent, she was already building more workers and had a large advantage. This often appeared to be her plan all along. I think she had much more strategy than just thinking in her head, "imma build a ton of roaches early and kill his wall.... lol zerg is so strong!" I really enjoy watching zerg players be more aggressive and take control of the game rather than being the "reactionary" race. I have a feeling people will start to see that a zerg attacking early game might be a very solid economic build and not just a cheese (ie. forcing the other player not to harass and thus letting the zerg macro up behind before they are able to know if it is a more committed attack or just a feint.)
A cheese is any strategy that aims to end the game very quickly.
Roach rushes and baneling busts are outright cheese/very allin. The fact the games didn't technically end after woods is irrelevant, she was like 40 workers to 10 in most cases. The games were over.
She's literally using Noregret's builds in most her games. Are you telling me he isn't cheesy either?
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On February 11 2018 23:25 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2018 10:56 MaxField wrote:On February 11 2018 06:41 Fango wrote:On February 11 2018 06:33 monkeyfetus wrote:On February 11 2018 06:16 Fango wrote:On February 11 2018 05:27 monkeyfetus wrote:On February 10 2018 21:32 Gurbak wrote:On February 10 2018 19:47 Vanillatoss wrote:
I wonder what kind of an argument pvnsp is going to provide to make Scarlett's win less important or glorious than it really is...
the imagination of koreans elitist to minimize foreigners victories always amaze me here even if she wins the tournament they will find a way to say it's not really a victory IMO, a big part of it is that Scarlett's skill at multi-pronged harrass taxes her opponent's micro and invites mistakes. When she forces errors and skillfully capitalizes on her opponents mistakes (forced or unforced), her detractors then point to that to cheapen her victory, instead of as evidence of her skill. Lol how much multipronged harass went into roach rushing or baneling busting? People detract from Scarlett's victories because she used cheese in most of the games, and zerg in general is very strong right now. Don't make up reasons to try and make Scarlett's win seem more deserverd. Of course she deserved to win, she played very well, but at least be honest about it. Yeah, yeah, when she wins short games it's because she's a dirty cheeser and when she wins long games it's because her opponents are bad. Whatever. The results speak for themselves. If the results speak for themselves why do you have to make up some trash about her multipronged harass forcing mistakes? It's actually baffling why so many people are denying that Scarlett cheesed to win. There's nothing wrong with cheesing, the aim is to win not to play a normal game. On February 11 2018 06:39 phodacbiet wrote:On February 11 2018 06:16 Fango wrote:On February 11 2018 05:27 monkeyfetus wrote:On February 10 2018 21:32 Gurbak wrote:On February 10 2018 19:47 Vanillatoss wrote:
I wonder what kind of an argument pvnsp is going to provide to make Scarlett's win less important or glorious than it really is...
the imagination of koreans elitist to minimize foreigners victories always amaze me here even if she wins the tournament they will find a way to say it's not really a victory IMO, a big part of it is that Scarlett's skill at multi-pronged harrass taxes her opponent's micro and invites mistakes. When she forces errors and skillfully capitalizes on her opponents mistakes (forced or unforced), her detractors then point to that to cheapen her victory, instead of as evidence of her skill. Lol how much multipronged harass went into roach rushing or baneling busting? People detract from Scarlett's victories because she used cheese in most of the games, and zerg in general is very strong right now. Don't make up reasons to try and make Scarlett's win seem more deserverd. Of course she deserved to win, she played very well, but at least be honest about it. If you are in the GSL and have trouble holding ladder cheeses then it's your problem, not the cheeser's. It's similar to how Koreans used to play versus foreigners, with lots of aggression and cheese because foreigner micro/macro was not up to par. If Zest/Innovation wanted to beat Scarlett in a long game, they should've done a better job preparing versus cheese. What relevence does that have? I never said Scarlett didn't play well or deserve to win. My only issue is with those that claim Scarlett didn't cheese and won with superior macro/multitasking or whatever I just got to point out that "Cheese" has grown to pretty much mean "this player is attacking the other player before 7 minutes" and by that definition, Scarlett cheesed so much. In reality, she was very aggressive, and put herelf in a position where she probably needed to damage her opponent to not get behind. Never did it seem that she was 100% "ALL IN" despite what commentators may say. Truth be told, every time someone builds army-units, they have to do something with them in order to justify them or else they are "behind". The reason why I don't feel like Scarlett (or most players honestly) was super cheesy was because even when her quick aggression failed to kill her opponent, she was already building more workers and had a large advantage. This often appeared to be her plan all along. I think she had much more strategy than just thinking in her head, "imma build a ton of roaches early and kill his wall.... lol zerg is so strong!" I really enjoy watching zerg players be more aggressive and take control of the game rather than being the "reactionary" race. I have a feeling people will start to see that a zerg attacking early game might be a very solid economic build and not just a cheese (ie. forcing the other player not to harass and thus letting the zerg macro up behind before they are able to know if it is a more committed attack or just a feint.) A cheese is any strategy that aims to end the game very quickly. Roach rushes and baneling busts are outright cheese/very allin. The fact the games didn't technically end after woods is irrelevant, she was like 40 workers to 10 in most cases. The games were over. She's literally using Noregret's builds in most her games. Are you telling me he isn't cheesy either?
But it's not Noregret who used them so people are acting like it was a revolution
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Way too much credit is being given to NoRegret.
Great games, Scarlett.
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I like how she is punching hard early, but not too the extent that it's 100% all in - it can be a knife edge to walk and she's really shown good judgement in when to fall back and macro, or take the best tech path at that point in time. It's not going to come off all the time but she always seems to have a plan for after the early game.
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Super impressive results from Scarlett
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326 Posts
Great games! It's really disheartening to see the constant balance whine after every single game in these forums, especially since it comes primarily from TL veterans.
It's so damn toxic
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Just watched the games. Way to go, Scarlett! Very impressive play!
Let's win the GSL!
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I stole Inno's 3 base build but I go into 2/2 and then 3/3 off of it. Not sure why he doesn't do that. Seems straight up better. Every time I've seen the 1/1 all in I cringe. It's not good. It hasn't worked since WOL. Really confused why he'd not go into 2/2 and a fourth base. It's easy for P to defend 3 bases against drops. Force P to take 4/5 bases and then try to snipe the forges. If you get the forges, you win.
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Blizzard needs to act, Foreigners taking all that Korean money!
Region lock please!! Oh wait...
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so almost her whole career scarlett went macro games and Koreans cheesed or timing attacked her for wins which was "super intelligent move from the Koreans"
now she does the same and people call her a cheeser? haha
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I would define cheese as any all-in done before any scouting is possible. This means various proxies, early pools etc. There are some grey areas such as economic early pools (which are done without scouting but it is debatable whether they are all-ins since almost no one openes 17 pool or something from what I saw) and maybe that old 3 rax reaper macro build that isn't used anymore because of reaper nerf.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 11 2018 19:40 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2018 19:37 deacon.frost wrote:And Scarlett is taking more and more Korean money while Koreans cannot into WCS Region lock needed. This is exactly why I cheered against Major despite the fact that I kinda like him, and hope that Scarlett will get eliminated. Region lock is so stupid.
I know and I would love to see it canceled too, but I don't think they will implement it soon enough.
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Wow....girl slaying Koreans WTF
So happy for her......you go girl dont stop. Bravo.
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On February 12 2018 11:38 00jknight wrote:
I stole Inno's 3 base build but I go into 2/2 and then 3/3 off of it. Not sure why he doesn't do that. Seems straight up better. Every time I've seen the 1/1 all in I cringe. It's not good. It hasn't worked since WOL. Really confused why he'd not go into 2/2 and a fourth base. It's easy for P to defend 3 bases against drops. Force P to take 4/5 bases and then try to snipe the forges. If you get the forges, you win.
That's a different build. If you go for further upgrades and a 4th you need to build more than 46 workers and then it's a completely different strategy. Inno chose to commit to a 3 base allin. Whether it's good or not I can't say but he obviously has his reasons to do it.
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On February 12 2018 22:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2018 11:38 00jknight wrote:
I stole Inno's 3 base build but I go into 2/2 and then 3/3 off of it. Not sure why he doesn't do that. Seems straight up better. Every time I've seen the 1/1 all in I cringe. It's not good. It hasn't worked since WOL. Really confused why he'd not go into 2/2 and a fourth base. It's easy for P to defend 3 bases against drops. Force P to take 4/5 bases and then try to snipe the forges. If you get the forges, you win. That's a different build. If you go for further upgrades and a 4th you need to build more than 46 workers and then it's a completely different strategy. Inno chose to commit to a 3 base allin. Whether it's good or not I can't say but he obviously has his reasons to do it.
He got a lot of success with that build againt protoss.But no build could last 4ever Zest prepared well against him.
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EPT
