EPT[GSL 2018] Season 1 - Ro16 Group A - Page 30
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ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
On February 11 2018 00:50 Golgotha wrote: thanks for explaining. what about when naniwa got this far in the gsl? does scarlett stand a better chance than him? That one is a tougher call. I think naniwa was closer in skill to top Koreans in his prime than any other foreigner in the GSL. He was like rank 2 or 3 on KR ladder at the time, which is actually a somewhat useful measurement of ability regardless of tournament results. | ||
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HoldenC23
Canada64 Posts
On February 11 2018 02:27 Kitai wrote: That one is a tougher call. I think naniwa was closer in skill to top Koreans in his prime than any other foreigner in the GSL. He was like rank 2 or 3 on KR ladder at the time, which is actually a somewhat useful measurement of ability regardless of tournament results. I could be wrong but I think Neeb has been up there as well (top 3 on KR ladder). I don't think Scarlett's success can be that easily dismissed, she has been huge on the rush strategies last night but she can macro out of almost anything which is what makes her so dangerous. | ||
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HoldenC23
Canada64 Posts
On February 10 2018 22:28 Golgotha wrote: with the way scarlett is playing now, does she stand a better chance than when huk, jinro, and idra got this far? I didn't start really watching Starcraft until 2015ish but I'd have to say results near the start of SC2 were far more unpredictable than nowadays based on what I've seen from looking at results. Early days it was more all over the place in builds and strategy. Whether that makes it more impressive for Scarlett now, I can't truly say. But I do think it was easier to surprise with builds in early days with those guys, IMO. | ||
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Parrek
United States893 Posts
On February 11 2018 03:13 HoldenC23 wrote: I didn't start really watching Starcraft until 2015ish but I'd have to say results near the start of SC2 were far more unpredictable than nowadays based on what I've seen from looking at results. Early days it was more all over the place in builds and strategy. Whether that makes it more impressive for Scarlett now, I can't truly say. But I do think it was easier to surprise with builds in early days with those guys, IMO. Also, you can't forget that most of those results were pre kespa. This is post kespa, but we're still feeling the influence of kespa on the scene | ||
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monkeyfetus
United States350 Posts
On February 10 2018 21:32 Gurbak wrote: the imagination of koreans elitist to minimize foreigners victories always amaze me here  even if she wins the tournament they will find a way to say it's not really a victory IMO, a big part of it is that Scarlett's skill at multi-pronged harrass taxes her opponent's micro and invites mistakes. When she forces errors and skillfully capitalizes on her opponents mistakes (forced or unforced), her detractors then point to that to cheapen her victory, instead of as evidence of her skill. | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
On February 11 2018 03:07 HoldenC23 wrote: I could be wrong but I think Neeb has been up there as well (top 3 on KR ladder). I don't think Scarlett's success can be that easily dismissed, she has been huge on the rush strategies last night but she can macro out of almost anything which is what makes her so dangerous. KR ladder was far stronger back then tho iirc | ||
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Topin
Peru10100 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
Now sure what that's actually about | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On February 11 2018 05:27 monkeyfetus wrote: IMO, a big part of it is that Scarlett's skill at multi-pronged harrass taxes her opponent's micro and invites mistakes. When she forces errors and skillfully capitalizes on her opponents mistakes (forced or unforced), her detractors then point to that to cheapen her victory, instead of as evidence of her skill. Lol how much multipronged harass went into roach rushing or baneling busting? People detract from Scarlett's victories because she used cheese in most of the games, and zerg in general is very strong right now. Don't make up reasons to try and make Scarlett's win seem more deserverd. Of course she deserved to win, she played very well, but at least be honest about it. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On February 11 2018 06:16 Fango wrote: Lol how much multipronged harass went into roach rushing or baneling busting? People detract from Scarlett's victories because she used cheese in most of the games, and zerg in general is very strong right now. Don't make up reasons to try and make Scarlett's win seem more deserverd. Of course she deserved to win, she played very well, but at least be honest about it. yeah pretty much this | ||
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monkeyfetus
United States350 Posts
On February 11 2018 06:16 Fango wrote: Lol how much multipronged harass went into roach rushing or baneling busting? People detract from Scarlett's victories because she used cheese in most of the games, and zerg in general is very strong right now. Don't make up reasons to try and make Scarlett's win seem more deserverd. Of course she deserved to win, she played very well, but at least be honest about it. Yeah, yeah, when she wins short games it's because she's a dirty cheeser and when she wins long games it's because her opponents are bad. Whatever. The results speak for themselves. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On February 11 2018 06:16 Fango wrote: Lol how much multipronged harass went into roach rushing or baneling busting? People detract from Scarlett's victories because she used cheese in most of the games, and zerg in general is very strong right now. Don't make up reasons to try and make Scarlett's win seem more deserverd. Of course she deserved to win, she played very well, but at least be honest about it. If you are in the GSL and have trouble holding ladder cheeses then it's your problem, not the cheeser's. It's similar to how Koreans used to play versus foreigners, with lots of aggression and cheese because foreigner micro/macro was not up to par. If Zest/Innovation wanted to beat Scarlett in a long game, they should've done a better job preparing versus cheese. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On February 11 2018 06:33 monkeyfetus wrote: Yeah, yeah, when she wins short games it's because she's a dirty cheeser and when she wins long games it's because her opponents are bad. Whatever. The results speak for themselves. If the results speak for themselves why do you have to make up some trash about her multipronged harass forcing mistakes? It's actually baffling why so many people are denying that Scarlett cheesed to win. There's nothing wrong with cheesing, the aim is to win not to play a normal game. On February 11 2018 06:39 phodacbiet wrote: If you are in the GSL and have trouble holding ladder cheeses then it's your problem, not the cheeser's. It's similar to how Koreans used to play versus foreigners, with lots of aggression and cheese because foreigner micro/macro was not up to par. If Zest/Innovation wanted to beat Scarlett in a long game, they should've done a better job preparing versus cheese. What relevence does that have? I never said Scarlett didn't play well or deserve to win. My only issue is with those that claim Scarlett didn't cheese and won with superior macro/multitasking or whatever | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
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Starecat
940 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/flUnwg1.png) Impressive. | ||
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LordYama
United States370 Posts
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
On February 11 2018 03:07 HoldenC23 wrote: I could be wrong but I think Neeb has been up there as well (top 3 on KR ladder). I don't think Scarlett's success can be that easily dismissed, she has been huge on the rush strategies last night but she can macro out of almost anything which is what makes her so dangerous. I agree and wasn't dismissing her by any means. She also doesn't suffer from the "one build to rule them all" type of play that hindered naniwa from accomplishing more than he did. My concern for her further advancement is that soO, Dark, and TY are all crazy Korean powerhouses right now, and aLive just seems to have her number for some reason. She has to beat one of them to move on. My personal fairy tale for this GSL is for soO to win his group and meet her in the finals. | ||
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RAPiDCasting
Korea (South)594 Posts
On February 10 2018 13:59 Charoisaur wrote: If she wasn't a foreigner people would call her a cheesy patchzerg who's abusing the current metagame LOL | ||
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MaxField
United States2386 Posts
On February 11 2018 06:41 Fango wrote: If the results speak for themselves why do you have to make up some trash about her multipronged harass forcing mistakes? It's actually baffling why so many people are denying that Scarlett cheesed to win. There's nothing wrong with cheesing, the aim is to win not to play a normal game. What relevence does that have? I never said Scarlett didn't play well or deserve to win. My only issue is with those that claim Scarlett didn't cheese and won with superior macro/multitasking or whatever I just got to point out that "Cheese" has grown to pretty much mean "this player is attacking the other player before 7 minutes" and by that definition, Scarlett cheesed so much. In reality, she was very aggressive, and put herelf in a position where she probably needed to damage her opponent to not get behind. Never did it seem that she was 100% "ALL IN" despite what commentators may say. Truth be told, every time someone builds army-units, they have to do something with them in order to justify them or else they are "behind". The reason why I don't feel like Scarlett (or most players honestly) was super cheesy was because even when her quick aggression failed to kill her opponent, she was already building more workers and had a large advantage. This often appeared to be her plan all along. I think she had much more strategy than just thinking in her head, "imma build a ton of roaches early and kill his wall.... lol zerg is so strong!" I really enjoy watching zerg players be more aggressive and take control of the game rather than being the "reactionary" race. I have a feeling people will start to see that a zerg attacking early game might be a very solid economic build and not just a cheese (ie. forcing the other player not to harass and thus letting the zerg macro up behind before they are able to know if it is a more committed attack or just a feint.) | ||
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