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Canada2764 Posts
On April 30 2017 12:04 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2017 12:00 Soularion wrote:On April 30 2017 11:51 Shellshock wrote:On April 30 2017 11:50 Soularion wrote:On April 30 2017 11:49 pvsnp wrote:Who would you consider the top 5 best TvT players of ~2012-2014?
TaeJa, Mvp, INnoVation (he was insane with hellbat drops), Flash, MMA. In no particular order. TaeJa vs INnoVation on Newkirk is still the best game of Starcraft II, ever. Inno vs Mvp was a super sick series too. Flash, MMA, TaeJa and Mvp are all retired. INnoVation was never all that good outside of the hellbat era. The old TvTers are gone, and that's left a bit of a void where everything is scrappy and odd. well I mean if you want to get to the really old good TvTers Gumigod, Ryung, and aLive are having a resurgence That's my point, though. With the combination of mechanics and TvT knowledge gone, you're left with people who either have the mechanical ability but not the matchup skill (Maru, INnoVation, TY, etc.) or the matchup skill but not as much mechanical ability (Ryung, GuMiho, aLive, etc.) making it seem as though there isn't a 'top tier' of TvT. Doom drops make TvT feel really swingy though, even with tankivacs removed from the game. Nerfing doom drops might help the top tier of TvT define itself. The real question is whether Maru would be part of that 'top tier', since his TvT relies so heavily upon it.
Maru always finds himself into a decent position in TvT. I don't know if he'd be top tier, but he'd be able to beat everyone. That's kind of how he's always been.
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On April 30 2017 12:06 starkiller123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2017 12:04 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 30 2017 12:00 Soularion wrote:On April 30 2017 11:51 Shellshock wrote:On April 30 2017 11:50 Soularion wrote:On April 30 2017 11:49 pvsnp wrote:Who would you consider the top 5 best TvT players of ~2012-2014?
TaeJa, Mvp, INnoVation (he was insane with hellbat drops), Flash, MMA. In no particular order. TaeJa vs INnoVation on Newkirk is still the best game of Starcraft II, ever. Inno vs Mvp was a super sick series too. Flash, MMA, TaeJa and Mvp are all retired. INnoVation was never all that good outside of the hellbat era. The old TvTers are gone, and that's left a bit of a void where everything is scrappy and odd. well I mean if you want to get to the really old good TvTers Gumigod, Ryung, and aLive are having a resurgence That's my point, though. With the combination of mechanics and TvT knowledge gone, you're left with people who either have the mechanical ability but not the matchup skill (Maru, INnoVation, TY, etc.) or the matchup skill but not as much mechanical ability (Ryung, GuMiho, aLive, etc.) making it seem as though there isn't a 'top tier' of TvT. Doom drops make TvT feel really swingy though, even with tankivacs removed from the game. Nerfing doom drops might help the top tier of TvT define itself. The real question is whether Maru would be part of that 'top tier', since his TvT relies so heavily upon it. It was actually easier to defend doom drops with tankivacs
Yeah probably.
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On April 30 2017 12:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2017 12:04 Fango wrote:On April 30 2017 11:59 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 30 2017 11:57 breaker1328 wrote:On April 30 2017 11:51 Fango wrote:
Boring yet strategic PvP > action-packed yet frustrating PvP I would prefer to play the former and watch the latter. There's also the question of whether building colossi arcs and a-moving is strategic. HoTS PvP was almost all strategy and position based, with good control and build order luck giving advantages to either side. Hell of a lot better than "both players press the same button and no one knows whose gonna win" barely matters how good a player is strategically.a Getting caught with a bad arc would cause players to lose games outright with not even the chance of recovery that disruptors afford.
I thought people complained about no comeback possibility in hots? idk i find both enjoyable enough
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Canada2764 Posts
If anyone thinks Serral is a top 2 zerg including Korea I'm going to be disappointed.
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As far as TvT goes, I prefer mech personally. Seeker missile dancing was always so tense.
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On April 30 2017 12:05 starkiller123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2017 12:04 Fango wrote:On April 30 2017 11:59 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 30 2017 11:57 breaker1328 wrote:On April 30 2017 11:51 Fango wrote:
Boring yet strategic PvP > action-packed yet frustrating PvP I would prefer to play the former and watch the latter. There's also the question of whether building colossi arcs and a-moving is strategic. HoTS PvP was almost all strategic and position based, with good control and build order luck giving advantages to either side. Hell of a lot better than "both players press the same button and no one knows whose gonna win" barely matters how good a player is strategically.a Idk about that, Neeb flanks with disrupters more and is better at not clumping them so they all get hit, not really random
Neeb is indeed very good. He always looks way more expirienced than anyone else at disruptor control. But even then g1 vs showtime he lost all his stuff to...disruptor shots.
But the bloody koreans. Once Neeb changed the meta it felt like every KR protoss was doing it and they all went 50/50 against eachother. I mentioned earlier that I believe a matchup is good when you have clear tiers of players. In HoTS "collosus wars" you had that. In PvP disruptor wars you don't.
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On April 30 2017 12:07 pvsnp wrote:Was played off the main stage, I think Basetrade streamed it?
Good lord thank you Rifkin and ZG for sparing me from yet another epic zvz.
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If anyone thinks Serral is a top 2 zerg including Korea I'm going to be disappointed.
Did they just forget about Dark, Solar, soO, and ByuL or something?
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On April 30 2017 12:09 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +If anyone thinks Serral is a top 2 zerg including Korea I'm going to be disappointed.
Did they just forget about Dark, Solar, soO, and ByuL or something?
Definitely?
Like...
what?
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On April 30 2017 12:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2017 12:04 Fango wrote:On April 30 2017 11:59 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 30 2017 11:57 breaker1328 wrote:On April 30 2017 11:51 Fango wrote:
Boring yet strategic PvP > action-packed yet frustrating PvP I would prefer to play the former and watch the latter. There's also the question of whether building colossi arcs and a-moving is strategic. HoTS PvP was almost all strategy and position based, with good control and build order luck giving advantages to either side. Hell of a lot better than "both players press the same button and no one knows whose gonna win" barely matters how good a player is strategically.a Getting caught with a bad arc would cause players to lose games outright with not even the chance of recovery that disruptors afford.
Disruptors make PvP really exciting because it makes engages last a lot longer and at a high level like this players rarely just lose everything. And even Showtime losing like 5 disruptors wasn't game ending like any equivalent would be in HotS
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Canada2764 Posts
On April 30 2017 12:09 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +If anyone thinks Serral is a top 2 zerg including Korea I'm going to be disappointed.
Did they just forget about Dark, Solar, soO, and ByuL or something?
Honestly even putting Serral as best foreign zerg was very questionable. He hasn't proven his ability to perform offline- Nerchio has.
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I see a sun rising outside my window just like zerg tide rising to crush some terrans. Gogo Nerchio!
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On April 30 2017 12:08 Soularion wrote:
If anyone thinks Serral is a top 2 zerg including Korea I'm going to be disappointed.
Come again?
Even though i think Serral is definitely way better than what he showed in series against Major, that stops at about level of top 3 foreign zerg.
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On April 30 2017 12:08 Soularion wrote:
If anyone thinks Serral is a top 2 zerg including Korea I'm going to be disappointed.
Yeah just say outside of Korea.
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gogo Kelazhur! Gotta defend the honor of the Americas!
Sorry Artur
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On April 30 2017 12:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2017 12:04 Fango wrote:On April 30 2017 11:59 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 30 2017 11:57 breaker1328 wrote:On April 30 2017 11:51 Fango wrote:
Boring yet strategic PvP > action-packed yet frustrating PvP I would prefer to play the former and watch the latter. There's also the question of whether building colossi arcs and a-moving is strategic. HoTS PvP was almost all strategy and position based, with good control and build order luck giving advantages to either side. Hell of a lot better than "both players press the same button and no one knows whose gonna win" barely matters how good a player is strategically.a Getting caught with a bad arc would cause players to lose games outright with not even the chance of recovery that disruptors afford.
It was a tense positional game. very reliant on counter attacks and being in a better place than your opponent, having zealots and archons in the right place, maxing collosus dmg etc. the better player almost always won, you cant say that with disruptors.
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Come again?
Even though i think Serral is definitely way better than what he showed in series against Major, that stops at about level of top 3 foreign zerg.
One of the casters said so. Think it was iNcontroL?
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On April 30 2017 12:12 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
gogo Kelazhur! Gotta defend the honor of the Americas!
Sorry Artur
Heretic.
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On April 30 2017 12:11 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2017 12:09 pvsnp wrote:If anyone thinks Serral is a top 2 zerg including Korea I'm going to be disappointed.
Did they just forget about Dark, Solar, soO, and ByuL or something? Honestly even putting Serral as best foreign zerg was very questionable. He hasn't proven his ability to perform offline- Nerchio has.
Serral's is the foreign equivalent of a practice Bonjwa. Everyone praises him, but he never shines in tournaments.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
He who shall not be named lings!
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EPT
