EPT[SSL 2017] Premier Division - Week 1 - Page 20
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
I really don't get this argument, 55% over a sample size of 54 games is something to work with. And its pre-patch. And the patch is out for one or two weeks only. How can you balance whine this early? You can't. Or at least you can't with any justification. But whiners will whine. It's what they've done since Wings came out and what they will do until the bitter end. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On March 20 2017 22:53 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really don't get this argument, 55% over a sample size of 54 games is something to work with. And its pre-patch. And the patch is out for one or two weeks only. How can you balance whine this early? Because the patch never addressed the actual problem with PvT. Yes, protoss winrates will go up because phoenix/adept is better if you get off the ground now. But that's still a build order gamble and doesn't change the fact that protoss has one semi-viable playstyle only. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Because the patch never addressed the actual problem with PvT. Yes, protoss winrates will go up because phoenix/adept is better if you get off the ground now. But that's still a build order gamble. The problem was that Protoss winrates were too low. If they go up, problem solved. ^Low winrates are not the only problem by any means but they were the big one all the Protosses were bitching about. Once the winrates are even, then we can worry about build orders, race design, unit interaction, etc. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On March 20 2017 22:58 pvsnp wrote: The problem was that Protoss winrates were too low. If they go up, problem solved. The blink era was never a problem according to that logic. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On March 20 2017 22:57 Olli wrote: Because the patch never addressed the actual problem with PvT. Yes, protoss winrates will go up because phoenix/adept is better if you get off the ground now. But that's still a build order gamble and doesn't change the fact that protoss has one semi-viable playstyle only. ok which patch would in your opinion adress the actual problem in PvT? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
The blink era was never a problem according to that logic. I checked out of Starcraft during that era because of school so I can't comment on that. But I believe the issue at hand is current imbalance, not past imbalances. Besides, using historic imbalance as a justification for current imbalance makes absolutely no logical sense. It's the vindictive reasoning of an immature child. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On March 20 2017 22:59 Charoisaur wrote: ok which patch would in your opinion adress the actual problem in PvT? Either a tank damage nerf against protoss, or a stalker health/shield buff to survive tank shells. The real issue in PvT is seriously just tank pushes. Especially raven -> tank push destroys robo so hard it's not even funny. I don't mind if the stalker buff is done through an upgrade that you can get in time, or just built in automatically. If tank pushes are solved, the whole matchup is fine. Right now everything revolves around them and the problem that protoss can't stop them and come out ahead with robo builds. On March 20 2017 23:00 pvsnp wrote: I checked out of Starcraft during that era because of school so I can't comment on that. But I believe the issue at hand is current imbalance, not past imbalances. Besides, using historic imbalance as a justification for current imbalance makes absolutely no logical sense. It's the vindictive reasoning of an immature child. You don't understand, apparently. Blink back then was a huge problem. The winrates just didn't reflect it properly. Protoss winrates might go up without the problem ever being addressed. | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
On March 20 2017 22:48 Olli wrote: This is the most recent tournament. That's what you should be looking at. If your complaints about balance are correct or not, this quote certainly is not true. You don't simply look at one tournament to decide balance, certainly not one that had pre patch qualifiers. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Either a tank damage nerf against protoss, or a stalker health/shield buff to survive tank shells. The real issue in PvT is seriously just tank pushes. Especially raven -> tank push destroys robo so hard it's not even funny. I don't mind if the stalker buff is done through an upgrade that you can get in time, or just built in automatically. If tank pushes are solved, the whole matchup is fine. Right now everything revolves around them and the problem that protoss can't stop them and come out ahead with robo builds. Then how will you address the inevitable result of Protoss being favored over Terran? If you buff a currently balanced race, imbalance is the obvious and inevitable result. If your complaints about balance are correct or not, this quote certainly is not true. You don't simply look at one tournament to decide balance, certainly not one that had pre patch qualifiers. IEM Katowice was a global event and like all global events is really crappy statistical justification for anything because you are putting a bunch of foreigners and Koreans of wildly varying skill level against each other. Code S is a much better sample. But even if you want to use IEM, look at the dates for the tournament and then the dates for Aligulac period 184. IEM falls within that period, whose PvT winrates were 49%. No significant imbalance. You don't understand, apparently. Blink back then was a huge problem. The winrates just didn't reflect it properly. Protoss winrates might go up without the problem ever being addressed. Ah, I see what you mean. You and I are talking about two different problems. You: How games are won Me: How many games are won It's my belief that the latter should be addressed before the former. Once winrates are even, then we can worry about playstyle/viable builds/etc. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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Durnuu
13326 Posts
On March 20 2017 23:09 StarscreamG1 wrote: are there VODs? There will be here : https://www.youtube.com/user/ESportsTV/videos (most likely anyway, can't actually be sure. But that's how it was in the previous SSLs) | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On March 20 2017 23:03 pvsnp wrote:Ah, I see what you mean. You and I are talking about two different problems. You: How games are won Me: How many games are won Yes, I've been saying that the entire time. Winrates don't necessarily reflect the actual state of balance, otherwise PvT in 2014 would have been far worse for much longer. But what you got was statistics being distorted by only the best terrans ever qualifying and playing in tournaments, and those could still beat weaker Protoss. That's what's happening right now, only that there's just one Protoss competing with 4+ Terrans at the highest level, when it was Maru, Taeja, sometimes Flash and sometimes Cure in 2014. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
are there VODs? Not at the moment but they will probably be posted here. https://www.youtube.com/user/ESportsTV/videos | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Yes, I've been saying that the entire time. Winrates don't necessarily reflect the actual state of balance, otherwise PvT in 2014 would have been far worse for much longer. But what you got was statistics being distorted by only the best terrans ever qualifying and playing in tournaments, and those could still beat weaker Protoss. That's what's happening right now, only that there's just one Protoss competing with 4+ Terrans at the highest level, when it was Maru, Taeja, sometimes Flash and sometimes Cure in 2014. Well, "how games are won" is a far trickier and more subtle problem to address than raw winrates. Playstyle of the individual player, build orders, mindgame/planning, degree of scouting, just plain old luck sometimes, etc; there's a lot of external factors that go into how an individual match is won or lost. I prefer to focus on getting to the right winrates first. It's easier to understand, to monitor, and to adjust. Unless a playstyle is simply unbeatable (and there haven't been any, though turtle mech came close) then meddling with balance simply because builds are homogenized or powerful seems premature imo. | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
On March 20 2017 23:11 Olli wrote: Yes, I've been saying that the entire time. Winrates don't necessarily reflect the actual state of balance, otherwise PvT in 2014 would have been far worse for much longer. But what you got was statistics being distorted by only the best terrans ever qualifying and playing in tournaments, and those could still beat weaker Protoss. That's what's happening right now, only that there's just one Protoss competing with 4+ Terrans at the highest level, when it was Maru, Taeja, sometimes Flash and sometimes Cure in 2014. You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that. And if it is a problem it will get reflected over a sufficiently large amount of games. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that. Tank pushes are very map-dependent and situational. Look at Games 5, 6, 7 of IEM Finals. Stats crushed TY's tank push with ease because they were on Honorgrounds and fought on open terrain. Compare that with Bel'shir where TY set up a hard contain uncontested, or Cactus with its narrow chokes. And today, Inno's tank push completely failed against Zest because he unseiged and didn't reseige quite fast enough. It's very much a positional game, and the Protoss simply has to be aware of when the push moves out/where it is on the map. If Protosses let Terrans siege up and set up a hard contain, they shouldn't be surprised when they lose after that. The nerfs to libs/mines have significantly decreased the zoning power of Terran as it is. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On March 20 2017 23:17 Aunvilgodess wrote: You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that. And if it is a problem it will get reflected over a sufficiently large amount of games. Tank pushes have been a problem for months and no patch has addressed them, what are you on about? Why do you think I heard "phoenix/adept or die trying" from every protoss at IEM? Winrates and balance are not the same thing, as I just showed you with the blink era winrates. They lowest TvP winrate during that time (45%) was 5% higher than Protoss winrates just over a month ago, yet you'd be crazy to argue that the game wasn't far more imbalanced then. On March 20 2017 23:18 pvsnp wrote: Tank pushes are very map-dependent and situational. Look at Games 5, 6, 7 of IEM Finals. Stats crushed TY's tank push with ease because they were on Honorgrounds and fought on open terrain. Compare that with Bel'shir where TY set up a contain uncontested, or Cactus with its narrow chokes. TY also lost two mines and a medivac without doing any damage prior to that push, which really shouldn't happen. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12583 Posts
I don't think you understand. Balance whine in LR doesn't happen when one guy comes in and everyone else trashtalks him, as is the case now. Balance whine in LR happens when everyone is being a dick and you get blamed for trying to say that you shouldn't balance whine. | ||
Poopi
France13022 Posts
On March 20 2017 23:21 Olli wrote: Tank pushes have been a problem for months and no patch has addressed them, what are you on about? Why do you think I heard "phoenix/adept or die trying" from every protoss at IEM? Winrates and balance are not the same thing, as I just showed you with the blink era winrates. They lowest TvP winrate during that time (45%) was 5% higher than Protoss winrates just over a month ago, yet you'd be crazy to argue that the game wasn't far more imbalanced then. TY also lost two mines and a medivac without doing any damage prior to that push, which really shouldn't happen. Maybe the terrans were saying "tank pushes or die trying" then. I'm still impressed you think Terran is favored against Protoss. | ||
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