On March 20 2017 19:14 paralleluniverse wrote: Overgrowth Whirlwind Newkirk Precinct Bel'Shir Vestige Frost Daybreak Abyssal Reef
WTF IS THIS IDIOTIC MAP POOL?
It isn't 2016 anymore, but no one has told KeSPA.
I mean I like Whirlwind, Frost and Abyssal, but I have still not recovered from years after years of Daybreak. And Overgrowth just doesnt have enough bases. Not a fan of Bel shir and Newkirk either.
On March 20 2017 19:14 paralleluniverse wrote: Overgrowth Whirlwind Newkirk Precinct Bel'Shir Vestige Frost Daybreak Abyssal Reef
WTF IS THIS IDIOTIC MAP POOL?
It isn't 2016 anymore, but no one has told KeSPA.
I mean I like Whirlwind, Frost and Abyssal, but I have still not recovered from years after years of Daybreak. And Overgrowth just doesnt have enough bases. Not a fan of Bel shir and Newkirk either.
On March 20 2017 19:36 The_Red_Viper wrote: Happy to see that we finally get to watch banshees destroy workers again, that liberator bs is just not worthy of starcraft :O
On March 20 2017 19:40 HolydaKing wrote: Same team matches continuing to be rather meh for me. Not that I expected anything else from TvP. ByuL vs aLive is gonna be great though hopefully.
I expect ByuL vs aLive to be a trainwreck. Because that's what it always amounts to.
On March 20 2017 19:40 HolydaKing wrote: Same team matches continuing to be rather meh for me. Not that I expected anything else from TvP. ByuL vs aLive is gonna be great though hopefully.
On March 20 2017 19:40 HolydaKing wrote: Same team matches continuing to be rather meh for me. Not that I expected anything else from TvP. ByuL vs aLive is gonna be great though hopefully.
I expect ByuL vs aLive to be a trainwreck. Because that's what it always amounts to.
Alive kills zergs 4th and then switches to late mech and loses the game
On March 20 2017 19:40 HolydaKing wrote: Same team matches continuing to be rather meh for me. Not that I expected anything else from TvP. ByuL vs aLive is gonna be great though hopefully.
I expect ByuL vs aLive to be a trainwreck. Because that's what it always amounts to.
Alive kills zergs 4th and then switches to late mech and loses the game
On March 20 2017 20:04 Penev wrote: Did they say anything about rotating.. casters?
I'm aking for some tiltmaster action
On March 20 2017 18:01 Wolf wrote: Glad you guys are as hyped as we are. I'll be missing opening day because I'm travelling back from LA, but RAPiD will be filling in. Hope you enjoy!
On March 20 2017 18:01 Wolf wrote: Glad you guys are as hyped as we are. I'll be missing opening day because I'm travelling back from LA, but RAPiD will be filling in. Hope you enjoy!
Gotta blame aLive for those losses. ByuL's macro was superb as expected but the burden of harassing is always on Terran in TvZ and aLive just didn't do that.
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
On March 20 2017 20:34 opisska wrote: A whooping 1500 viewers on EN youtube, is there anothere english stream or is that it? That would be sad ...
A lot of people probably just chilling on twitch and have no idea there is a tournament going on... I knew I checked twitch first and then came here looking for a youtube strim link
A whooping 1500 viewers on EN youtube, is there anothere english stream or is that it? That would be sad ...
Youtube is pretty unusual to have a Starcraft stream. Most likely a lot of people don't even know about this. I can't understand why they didn't put this on Twitch like last year.
On March 20 2017 20:34 opisska wrote: A whooping 1500 viewers on EN youtube, is there anothere english stream or is that it? That would be sad ...
It's also 7:30am EST on a Monday morning so pretty much terrible times for any person living in NA. I'm about to leave for work here shortly so figured I'd get my dose of sc2 in.
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
TaeJa did
Not on this version of LotV no.
pretty sure he'd do better than aLive just did.
Feel free to think it but it won't make it true. TaeJa did pretty bad in LotV, why would he do better than current top T especially against ByuL who uses bling buff and maps that well...
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
TaeJa did
Not on this version of LotV no.
pretty sure he'd do better than aLive just did.
Feel free to think it but it won't make it true. TaeJa did pretty bad in LotV, why would he do better than current top T especially against ByuL who uses bling buff and maps that well...
I mean he beat soO on frost when 8 armor ultras were a thing.
On March 20 2017 20:34 opisska wrote: A whooping 1500 viewers on EN youtube, is there anothere english stream or is that it? That would be sad ...
A lot of people probably just chilling on twitch and have no idea there is a tournament going on... I knew I checked twitch first and then came here looking for a youtube strim link
I don't think I have even ever seen a page of Twitch that wasn't a particular stream linked on TL
On March 20 2017 20:34 opisska wrote: A whooping 1500 viewers on EN youtube, is there anothere english stream or is that it? That would be sad ...
A lot of people probably just chilling on twitch and have no idea there is a tournament going on... I knew I checked twitch first and then came here looking for a youtube strim link
I don't think I have even ever seen a page of Twitch that wasn't a particular stream linked on TL
Hm i think they have pretty good streams tbh, especially now that it's not only gaming content
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
TaeJa did
Not on this version of LotV no.
pretty sure he'd do better than aLive just did.
Feel free to think it but it won't make it true. TaeJa did pretty bad in LotV, why would he do better than current top T especially against ByuL who uses bling buff and maps that well...
Taeja plays like the best defensive macro TvZ ever. He's what aLive wishes he could be. See his game vs soO on Nimbus at Blizzcon. Damn I miss Taeja
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
TaeJa did
Not on this version of LotV no.
pretty sure he'd do better than aLive just did.
Feel free to think it but it won't make it true. TaeJa did pretty bad in LotV, why would he do better than current top T especially against ByuL who uses bling buff and maps that well...
I mean he beat soO on frost when 8 armor ultras were a thing.
Wasn't that precisely when soO was really bad? :D Because if you aren't aware he just recently became good again ^^
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
TaeJa did
Not on this version of LotV no.
pretty sure he'd do better than aLive just did.
Feel free to think it but it won't make it true. TaeJa did pretty bad in LotV, why would he do better than current top T especially against ByuL who uses bling buff and maps that well...
I mean he beat soO on frost when 8 armor ultras were a thing.
Wasn't that precisely when soO was really bad? :D Because if you aren't aware he just recently became good again ^^
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
TaeJa did
Not on this version of LotV no.
pretty sure he'd do better than aLive just did.
Feel free to think it but it won't make it true. TaeJa did pretty bad in LotV, why would he do better than current top T especially against ByuL who uses bling buff and maps that well...
I mean he beat soO on frost when 8 armor ultras were a thing.
Wasn't that precisely when soO was really bad? :D Because if you aren't aware he just recently became good again ^^
and Taeja was semi-retired
He wasn't even practicing anymore and the only reason he was still playing is because people didn't manage to eliminate him from GSL.
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
TaeJa did
Not on this version of LotV no.
pretty sure he'd do better than aLive just did.
Feel free to think it but it won't make it true. TaeJa did pretty bad in LotV, why would he do better than current top T especially against ByuL who uses bling buff and maps that well...
I mean he beat soO on frost when 8 armor ultras were a thing.
Wasn't that precisely when soO was really bad? :D Because if you aren't aware he just recently became good again ^^
Doesn't matter how good you are or aren't supposed to be, with 8 armor ultras on Frost cross you're not supposed to get completely rekt in the late game.
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
TaeJa did
Not on this version of LotV no.
pretty sure he'd do better than aLive just did.
Feel free to think it but it won't make it true. TaeJa did pretty bad in LotV, why would he do better than current top T especially against ByuL who uses bling buff and maps that well...
I mean he beat soO on frost when 8 armor ultras were a thing.
Wasn't that precisely when soO was really bad? :D Because if you aren't aware he just recently became good again ^^
Doesn't matter how good you are or aren't supposed to be, with 8 armor ultras on Frost cross you're not supposed to get completely rekt in the late game.
It matters a lot actually because aLive can beat bad zergs on frost as well. We are talking about same lvl opponents and TaeJa wouldn't stand a chance against current ByuL on this map on this patch. I don't know why people always way overrate TaeJa, maybe because he was on TL?
On March 20 2017 20:25 pvsnp wrote: I mean aLive's mechanics are pretty good but he has made like all the textbook tactical mistakes outlined in the great big book of How to TvZ.
INnoVation is crying right now watching this.
I don't think any terran has a clue on how to win TvZ on cross frost tho. Who are the casters btw?
TaeJa did
Not on this version of LotV no.
pretty sure he'd do better than aLive just did.
Feel free to think it but it won't make it true. TaeJa did pretty bad in LotV, why would he do better than current top T especially against ByuL who uses bling buff and maps that well...
I mean he beat soO on frost when 8 armor ultras were a thing.
Wasn't that precisely when soO was really bad? :D Because if you aren't aware he just recently became good again ^^
Doesn't matter how good you are or aren't supposed to be, with 8 armor ultras on Frost cross you're not supposed to get completely rekt in the late game.
Depends on how far are you willing to go with "doesn't matter how good you are". I am pretty sure that a pro would destroy me in that situation even if he was allowed to just build marines and medivacs and nothing else.
I don't know why people always way overrate TaeJa, maybe because he was on TL?
In his prime he was a beast of a Terran, and he had a uniquely fluid playstyle. But I tend to agree that he's a bit overrated. Even in HotS, Maru and Inno were both more skilled imo.
Pre-Glaive timing so sick. Also both of them look so dead. I mean it's expected out of Inno I guess but Zest just like breathed and blinked a few times after he lost. No feeling at all.
On March 20 2017 21:13 pvsnp wrote: Pre-Glaive timing so sick. Also both of them look so dead. I mean it's expected out of Inno I guess but Zest just like breathed and blinked a few times after he lost. No feeling at all.
In the middle of a series most players are to focused to show much emotions.
On March 20 2017 21:13 pvsnp wrote: Pre-Glaive timing so sick. Also both of them look so dead. I mean it's expected out of Inno I guess but Zest just like breathed and blinked a few times after he lost. No feeling at all.
In the middle of a series most players are to focused to show much emotions.
You don't want to be too affected by victory/defeat of a single map since it doesn't mean the BO will be won/lost, so better stay focused indeed.
Zest's PvT simply isn't on the lvl it would need to be against Innovation. He should do better in the other matchups and probably against lesser terrans
Hm, none of the Protoss have won yet. Stats should be able to put one on the board if he plays seriously but I think he might want to hide PvZ strats from soO.
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
Because Innovation said you cannot hold the adept allin even if you know it's coming
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
Because Innovation said you cannot hold the adept allin even if you know it's coming
That's why protoss did it for about a week and then never again
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
If you just buff stalkers, why wouldn't you play pure gateway (maybe + immortals) at that point? Mines nerfed, liberators nerfed and stalkers buffed to deal with tanks.
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
Doesn't have to be a big nerf, just so they die a little earlier so they kill a few less drones
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
If you just buff stalkers, why wouldn't you play pure gateway (maybe + immortals) at that point? Mines nerfed, liberators nerfed and stalkers buffed to deal with tanks.
Because gateway only would still be terrible against bio, as it has always been. A stalker health buff doesn't change that.
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
Doesn't have to be a big nerf, just so they die a little earlier so they kill a few less drones
What about reducing the length of the shade ability? So adepts couldn't shade as far away, making it easier to defend them and react to incoming harassment. I don't like how adepts function as harass units anyway.
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
If you just buff stalkers, why wouldn't you play pure gateway (maybe + immortals) at that point? Mines nerfed, liberators nerfed and stalkers buffed to deal with tanks.
Because gateway only would still be terrible against bio, as it has always been. A stalker health buff doesn't change that.
So adept/stalker/sentry/immortal wasn't the meta for the first half of 2016 and it was all in my mind
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
Doesn't have to be a big nerf, just so they die a little earlier so they kill a few less drones
I think the shade cooldown being increased would be better to weaken their harassment, without making them getting worse in straigh up fights.
Because gateway only would still be terrible against bio, as it has always been. A stalker health buff doesn't change that.
Except Gateway > Pure Bio. Terran needs splash damage to deal with monoAdept and mines/libs were just nerfed. Buffing Stalkers would basically just mean Protoss > Terran early as well as lategame.
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
If you just buff stalkers, why wouldn't you play pure gateway (maybe + immortals) at that point? Mines nerfed, liberators nerfed and stalkers buffed to deal with tanks.
Because gateway only would still be terrible against bio, as it has always been. A stalker health buff doesn't change that.
So adept/stalker/sentry/immortal wasn't the meta for the first half of 2016 and it was all in my mind
You mean when the game was entirely different and you could get away with fast thirds into double forge and hit midgame timings to keep the terran down in supply? That's not a thing anymore. Not that it was bad.
You mean when the game was entirely different and you could get away with fast thirds into double forge and hit midgame timings to keep the terran down in supply? That's not a thing anymore. Not that it was bad.
Protoss was OP and that was bad. Anytime one race is OP is bad.
About the stalker discussion, if they do anything I think they should make combat shields for stalkers. With a long research time so we dont risk having blink all-ins every game.
Because gateway only would still be terrible against bio, as it has always been. A stalker health buff doesn't change that.
Except Gateway > Pure Bio. Terran needs splash damage to deal with monoAdept and mines/libs were just nerfed. Buffing Stalkers would basically just mean Protoss > Terran early as well as lategame.
Yeah but something needs to be adressed so Zest doesn't lose to INnoVation anymore.
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
If you just buff stalkers, why wouldn't you play pure gateway (maybe + immortals) at that point? Mines nerfed, liberators nerfed and stalkers buffed to deal with tanks.
Because gateway only would still be terrible against bio, as it has always been. A stalker health buff doesn't change that.
So adept/stalker/sentry/immortal wasn't the meta for the first half of 2016 and it was all in my mind
You mean when the game was entirely different and you could get away with fast thirds into double forge and hit midgame timings to keep the terran down in supply? That's not a thing anymore. Not that it was bad.
And how do you know a stalker buff doesn't change it back to that?
Yeah but something needs to be adressed so Zest doesn't lose to INnoVation anymore.
I'd be happy if Zest could reliably beat the second-string Terrans, for starters. Losing to people like KeeN or aLive should not be a thing from a top-tier Protoss.
On March 20 2017 21:39 Olli wrote: Time for another patch. One that matters this time.
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds ?
I seriously think it's time to consider a stalker health buff. They're garbage in both PvZ and PvT and blink all-ins don't exist anymore. Maybe if they could actually survive tank fire for long enough to deal with tank pushes well enough, protoss could reliably open robo again. Otherwise you get what happened in G1 - you're predictable opening phoenix/adept and Terran simply counters your opening.
I would like to see an hp nerf on adepts the same time then
Why? Then phoenix/adept wouldn't be viable and you'd have the same problem with only robo being viable.
Doesn't have to be a big nerf, just so they die a little earlier so they kill a few less drones
I think the shade cooldown being increased would be better to weaken their harassment, without making them getting worse in straigh up fights.
one or the other, they're too survivalist for my taste as they are now
I do prefer the small hp nerf tho cuz I'm also not the biggest fan of shading on top of the opponents army
Yeah but something needs to be adressed so Zest doesn't lose to INnoVation anymore.
I'd be happy if Zest could reliably beat the second-string Terrans, for starters. Losing to people like KeeN or aLive should not be a thing from a top-tier Protoss.
Zest lost to Keen before the nerfs and aLive might actually be top 4 terran right now.
Yeah but something needs to be adressed so Zest doesn't lose to INnoVation anymore.
I'd be happy if Zest could reliably beat the second-string Terrans, for starters. Losing to people like KeeN or aLive should not be a thing from a top-tier Protoss.
Zest lost to Keen before the nerfs and aLive might actually be top 4 terran right now.
I think aLive is only top 4 Terran if he plays online or outside of Korea. Offline games in Korea? No bueno.
Zest lost to Keen before the nerfs and aLive might actually be top 4 terran right now.
I certainly hope he can beat KeeN now but his PvT has been underwhelming today and at IEM.
aLive is the best of the Terran B-Team by quite a bit but he is not a Horseman (at least not yet). He's got all the trademarks of a second-stringer: lacks well-rounded skill across all matchups, strongest in TvT, better showing online than off, lacks a major title, notable only when balance favors Terran. A rising tide lifts all boats, and until aLive can go toe-to-toe with Stats or Dark he will remain a B-Teamer.
On the other hand, if ByuN doesn't get his shit together soon he will be in danger of losing his own exalted status. INnoVation and TY definitely leading the Terran race rn.
Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
Zest lost to Keen before the nerfs and aLive might actually be top 4 terran right now.
I certainly hope he can beat KeeN now but his PvT has been underwhelming today and at IEM.
aLive is the best of the Terran B-Team by quite a bit but he is not a Horseman (at least not yet). He's got all the trademarks of a second-stringer: lacks well-rounded skill across all matchups, strongest in TvT, better showing online than off, lacks a major title, notable only when balance favors Terran. A rising tide lifts all boats, and until aLive can go toe-to-toe with Stats or Dark he will remain a B-Teamer.
On the other hand, if ByuN doesn't get his shit together soon he will be in danger of losing his own exalted status. INnoVation and TY definitely leading the Terran race rn.
aLive beat Stats at IEM
He just can't do shit in Korean leagues for some reason.
Zest lost to Keen before the nerfs and aLive might actually be top 4 terran right now.
I certainly hope he can beat KeeN now but his PvT has been underwhelming today and at IEM.
aLive is the best of the Terran B-Team by quite a bit but he is not a Horseman (at least not yet). He's got all the trademarks of a second-stringer: lacks well-rounded skill across all matchups, strongest in TvT, better showing online than off, lacks a major title, notable only when balance favors Terran. A rising tide lifts all boats, and until aLive can go toe-to-toe with Stats or Dark he will remain a B-Teamer.
On the other hand, if ByuN doesn't get his shit together soon he will be in danger of losing his own exalted status. INnoVation and TY definitely leading the Terran race rn.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
I'd say herO and Classic have decent chances to beat the "horsemen". Also there has just been a patch. before the patch there was clearly a balance problem, now we barely have any info about balance yet.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
was protoss broken in bw during the reign of the six dragons?
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
I'd say herO and Classic have decent chances to beat the "horsemen".
They're definitely not favored to beat any of them. Or even 50/50.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
was protoss broken in bw during the reign of the six dragons?
I wasn't familiar enough with the game to comment on that.
Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
But the "Four Horsemen" aren't what they used to be. It's more a theme than a real thing at this point. ByuN has been lagging considerably, Maru has barely played in anything. Inno and TY are the only real "Horsemen."
The actual best players (in no particular order) are INnoVation, Stats, TY, and Dark. And that's pretty even race-wise.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
Is it even possible to think that Protoss are not favored against terrans right now without trolling? O_o I'm genuinely impressed about this level of denial...
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
I'd say herO and Classic have decent chances to beat the "horsemen".
They're definitely not favored to beat any of them. Or even 50/50.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
Is it even possible to think that Protoss are not favored against terrans right now without trolling? O_o I'm genuinely impressed about this level of denial...
I don't understand where you get the idea from that protoss is favored against Terran, it can't be due to winrates or championships or anything game-related.
I don't understand where you get the idea from that protoss is favored against Terran, it can't be due to winrates or championships or anything game-related.
It's related to the recent lib+mine nerfs, and Stats proving that top Protosses can beat top Terrans. Protoss might be slightly favored against Terran atm, but no more than that.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
Is it even possible to think that Protoss are not favored against terrans right now without trolling? O_o I'm genuinely impressed about this level of denial...
I don't understand where you get the idea from that protoss is favored against Terran, it can't be due to winrates or championships or anything game-related.
I don't understand where you get the idea from that protoss is favored against Terran, it can't be due to winrates or championships or anything game-related.
It's related to the recent lib+mine nerfs.
You mean the ones that so far haven't had any impact at all? The liberator nerf did literally nothing, mass liberator still works the same way it did before. The mine nerf makes phoenix/adept a little better, but still doesn't address the underlying issues. Zest got build countered because he opened phoenix/adept. Every protoss has to mix in robo builds despite them being terrible, just because they'd get exploited and blind countered otherwise. That's a huge issue in any game, and funny enough it was the exact same thing that Terrans were crying their eyes out about in 2014. But hey, we can't have protoss asking for balance even after months of PvT winrates around 40%.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
Until we get more results, yes, I will believe that. We just had a balance update.
I don't understand where you get the idea from that protoss is favored against Terran, it can't be due to winrates or championships or anything game-related.
It's related to the recent lib+mine nerfs.
You mean the ones that so far haven't had any impact at all? The liberator nerf did literally nothing, mass liberator still works the same way it did before. The mine nerf makes phoenix/adept a little better, but still doesn't address the underlying issues. Zest got build countered because he opened phoenix/adept. Every protoss has to mix in robo builds despite them being terrible, just because they'd get exploited and blind countered otherwise. That's a huge issue in any game, and funny enough it was the exact same thing that Terrans were crying their eyes out about in 2014. But hey, we can't have protoss asking for balance even after months of PvT winrates around 40%.
Lib nerf did literally nothing. except making stalkers 33% more cost-efficient vs them.
pre-patch winrates are completely irrelevant to current balance.
And the funniest thing is when people bring up Stats as the only protoss that does alright against top terrans. When it was Taeja, Mvp or Maru as the only Terran at a time in the exact same situation, people were going fucking mental about Terran being too weak. It's fucking ridiculous in this community.
On March 20 2017 22:24 Olli wrote: And the funniest thing is when people bring up Stats as the only protoss that does alright against top terrans. When it was Taeja, Mvp or Maru as the only Terran at a time in the exact same situation, people were going fucking mental about Terran being too weak. It's fucking ridiculous in this community.
The community has been Terran biased since forever and even liberators couldn't change that. It's just how it is
On March 20 2017 22:24 Olli wrote: And the funniest thing is when people bring up Stats as the only protoss that does alright against top terrans. When it was Taeja, Mvp or Maru as the only Terran at a time in the exact same situation, people were going fucking mental about Terran being too weak. It's fucking ridiculous in this community.
The community has been Terran biased since forever and even liberators couldn't change that. It's just how it is
You mean the ones that so far haven't had any impact at all? The liberator nerf did literally nothing, mass liberator still works the same way it did before. The mine nerf makes phoenix/adept a little better, but still doesn't address the underlying issues. Zest got build countered because he opened phoenix/adept. Every protoss has to mix in robo builds despite them being terrible, just because they'd get exploited and blind countered otherwise. That's a huge issue in any game, and funny enough it was the exact same thing that Terrans were crying their eyes out about in 2014. But hey, we can't have protoss asking for balance even after months of PvT winrates around 40%.
I understand where you are coming from, but you're missing a couple major factors that have changed for Protoss since the beginning of the year:
On March 20 2017 22:24 Olli wrote: And the funniest thing is when people bring up Stats as the only protoss that does alright against top terrans. When it was Taeja, Mvp or Maru as the only Terran at a time in the exact same situation, people were going fucking mental about Terran being too weak. It's fucking ridiculous in this community.
same as now, people go fucking mental about protoss being to weak because Stats is the only one doing alright.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
But is there also a patch to fix Terran sympathizer's sexual dysfunction?
It's always darkest before dawn...or maybe just perpetual night.
On March 20 2017 22:24 Olli wrote: And the funniest thing is when people bring up Stats as the only protoss that does alright against top terrans. When it was Taeja, Mvp or Maru as the only Terran at a time in the exact same situation, people were going fucking mental about Terran being too weak. It's fucking ridiculous in this community.
same as now, people go fucking mental about protoss being to weak because Stats is the only one doing alright.
Only that there are no complaints at all. Where's the reddit threads? The balance whine in LRs? Do I really need to link you to examples in 2014? We had staff meetings specifically to address the problem of ridiculous balance whine. But hey, protoss has been doing far worse for months (statistically) than Terran ever did back then and it's perfectly fine. Blizzard made one change that doesn't address the core issue and everything is great again.
Terran back then was perfectly fine statistics-wise. Only that they couldn't win if protoss played correctly. It's the same now, only that protoss also isn't fine statistically.
Terran back then was perfectly fine statistics-wise. Only that they couldn't win if protoss played correctly. It's the same now, only that protoss also isn't fine statistically.
Did you just completely ignore both my post about statistics along with those statistics themselves?
Protoss on Aligulac since February 16th - Now: 50% Protoss in GSL Code S: 55%
versus Terran for both, obviously.
I can understand the balance frustration but if you just outright bury your head in the sand and whine without any evidence to justify (and in fact evidence that directly contradicts your whining) then you aren't going to get very far.
On March 20 2017 22:24 Olli wrote: And the funniest thing is when people bring up Stats as the only protoss that does alright against top terrans. When it was Taeja, Mvp or Maru as the only Terran at a time in the exact same situation, people were going fucking mental about Terran being too weak. It's fucking ridiculous in this community.
same as now, people go fucking mental about protoss being to weak because Stats is the only one doing alright.
Only that there are no complaints at all. Where's the reddit threads? The balance whine in LRs? Do I really need to link you to examples in 2014? We had staff meetings specifically to address the problem of ridiculous balance whine. But hey, protoss has been doing far worse for months (statistically) than Terran ever did back then and it's perfectly fine. Blizzard made one change that doesn't address the core issue and everything is great again.
Terran back then was perfectly fine statistics-wise. Only that they couldn't win if protoss played correctly. It's the same now, only that protoss also isn't fine statistically.
I think people have learned by now that balance-whine isn't allowed in LR threads. For reddit threads there have been a ton before the patches.
Terran back then was perfectly fine statistics-wise. Only that they couldn't win if protoss played correctly. It's the same now, only that protoss also isn't fine statistically.
I wouldn't consider 3 terrans in Code S perfectly fine.
On March 20 2017 22:30 Olli wrote: The balance whine in LRs?
I thought that's what you're here for?
Occasionally, only that I also play the game and talk to pros, as opposed to most of you people who don't do either.
I already told you that "talking to pros" isn't a good argument. Pros are biased just as much. I don't even wanna say that you are wrong, but it's not a clear cut thing atm after the patch, we really need more stats to evaluate the situation again.
I already told you that "talking to pros" isn't a good argument. Pros are biased just as much. I don't even wanna say that you are wrong, but it's not a clear cut thing atm after the patch, we really need more stats to evaluate the situation again.
He might not be wrong, yes, but there is absolutely no case for him being right. Not enough evidence by a long shot, and what there is points against him.
On March 20 2017 22:30 Olli wrote: The balance whine in LRs?
I thought that's what you're here for?
Occasionally, only that I also play the game and talk to pros, as opposed to most of you people who don't do either.
I already told you that "talking to pros" isn't a good argument. Pros are biased just as much. I don't even wanna say that you are wrong, but it's not a clear cut thing atm after the patch, we really need more stats to evaluate the situation again.
7 gate adept unholdable even if scouted was confirmed by a pro.
On March 20 2017 22:30 Olli wrote: The balance whine in LRs?
I thought that's what you're here for?
Occasionally, only that I also play the game and talk to pros, as opposed to most of you people who don't do either.
As someone who can't play the game right now due to my hand not working properly (not clear if due to the illness or a side-effect of treatment) I find this remark offensively ableist!
Terran back then was perfectly fine statistics-wise. Only that they couldn't win if protoss played correctly. It's the same now, only that protoss also isn't fine statistically.
Did you completely ignore both my post about statistics along with those statistics themselves? I can understand the balance frustration but if you just outright bury your head in the sand and whine without any evidence to justify (and in fact evidence that directly contradicts your whining) then you aren't going to get very far.
Last month (February) Protoss was at 45%. That's the highest it's been since November. The highest winrate PvT ever reached during the so-called blink era was 55%. So I do wonder where the outrage is.
I don't know results of this month and if it's not completed yet, it's pretty pointless to use. I'm telling you that, actually play the game, the liberator patch hasn't changed anything and the widow mine patch only help phoenix/adept, which still gets killed by certain builds. So the core problem still isn't addressed.
On March 20 2017 22:30 Olli wrote: The balance whine in LRs?
I thought that's what you're here for?
Occasionally, only that I also play the game and talk to pros, as opposed to most of you people who don't do either.
I already told you that "talking to pros" isn't a good argument. Pros are biased just as much. I don't even wanna say that you are wrong, but it's not a clear cut thing atm after the patch, we really need more stats to evaluate the situation again.
7 gate adept unholdable even if scouted was confirmed by a pro.
also in 2014 terran was literally BL/Infestor in TvP.
I already told you that "talking to pros" isn't a good argument. Pros are biased just as much.
Pros most likely know the most about balance and what is/is not a problem.
However, actually opening their mouths and talking honestly is another matter. Any balance change directly impacts their chances of making money, so it's only rational for them to lie about the state of the game. There's literally no incentive to be honest when your own race is OP.
On March 20 2017 22:30 Olli wrote: The balance whine in LRs?
I thought that's what you're here for?
Occasionally, only that I also play the game and talk to pros, as opposed to most of you people who don't do either.
I already told you that "talking to pros" isn't a good argument. Pros are biased just as much. I don't even wanna say that you are wrong, but it's not a clear cut thing atm after the patch, we really need more stats to evaluate the situation again.
7 gate adept unholdable even if scouted was confirmed by a pro.
also in 2014 terran was literally BL/Infestor in TvP.
On March 20 2017 22:30 Olli wrote: The balance whine in LRs?
I thought that's what you're here for?
Occasionally, only that I also play the game and talk to pros, as opposed to most of you people who don't do either.
I already told you that "talking to pros" isn't a good argument. Pros are biased just as much. I don't even wanna say that you are wrong, but it's not a clear cut thing atm after the patch, we really need more stats to evaluate the situation again.
7 gate adept unholdable even if scouted was confirmed by a pro.
also in 2014 terran was literally BL/Infestor in TvP.
Terran back then was perfectly fine statistics-wise. Only that they couldn't win if protoss played correctly. It's the same now, only that protoss also isn't fine statistically.
Did you completely ignore both my post about statistics along with those statistics themselves? I can understand the balance frustration but if you just outright bury your head in the sand and whine without any evidence to justify (and in fact evidence that directly contradicts your whining) then you aren't going to get very far.
Last month (February) Protoss was at 45%. That's the highest it's been since November. The highest winrate PvT ever reached during the so-called blink era was 55%. I don't results of this month and if it's not completed yet, it's pretty pointless to use. I'm telling you that, actually play the game, the liberator patch hasn't changed anything and the widow mine patch only help phoenix/adept, which still gets killed by certain builds. So the core problem still isn't addressed.
using pre-patch winrates is even more pointless. and have you talked to pros what effect the patches had? probably not to terran pros. Polt for example said that the liberator nerf is a massive nerf to mass liberator styles and he wanted to rely less on them because of that.
On March 20 2017 22:11 Olli wrote: Just the fact that there are "four horsemen" of Terran and a single Protoss that can hang with them tells you the whole story. And then there's aLive, Ryung, Keen, Bunny. So many Terrans are so good all of a sudden, and so many great protoss champions are so bad. Just keep believing everything is fine.
Is it even possible to think that Protoss are not favored against terrans right now without trolling? O_o I'm genuinely impressed about this level of denial...
I don't understand where you get the idea from that protoss is favored against Terran, it can't be due to winrates or championships or anything game-related.
Recent nerfs plus terrans losing everywhere in online cups or tournaments plus watching the games. TY barely beat Stats before wm nerf because Stats messed up badly (as you can see in PiG daily on the match), while avoiding macro games (which indicates that it's very hard to win on most maps, because TY is okay at playing the late game if there is enough chance to win).
Go on, tell me that the statistics show that Protoss is hopelessly underpowered vs Terran.
"Alternative facts" anyone?
I lose my fair share of games on the ladder like everyone else, but bitching and moaning about balance is not the right way to do anything besides make yourself look like an ignorant, whiny, immature, internet caricature.
Terran back then was perfectly fine statistics-wise. Only that they couldn't win if protoss played correctly. It's the same now, only that protoss also isn't fine statistically.
Did you completely ignore both my post about statistics along with those statistics themselves? I can understand the balance frustration but if you just outright bury your head in the sand and whine without any evidence to justify (and in fact evidence that directly contradicts your whining) then you aren't going to get very far.
Last month (February) Protoss was at 45%. That's the highest it's been since November. The highest winrate PvT ever reached during the so-called blink era was 55%. I don't results of this month and if it's not completed yet, it's pretty pointless to use. I'm telling you that, actually play the game, the liberator patch hasn't changed anything and the widow mine patch only help phoenix/adept, which still gets killed by certain builds. So the core problem still isn't addressed.
using pre-patch winrates is even more pointless. and have you talked to pros what effect the patches had? probably not to terran pros. Polt for example said that the liberator nerf is a massive nerf to mass liberator styles and he wanted to rely less on them because of that.
Liberators in PvT are all about the transition timings. If Terran gets to mass liberator before protoss can get to tempests, protoss dies. The damage nerf doesn't matter, you can't engage mass liberator with a ground army. If protoss does get to tempests, then liberators might as well have the same damage output as before. That wasn't an issue then either. The only time the patch actually has an impact is when terrans use liberators in tank pushes, and the issue with those were never liberators to begin with, but tanks.
The widow mine nerf is great for phoenix/adept, but doesn't address the issue that Protoss can still be exploited early (as you saw with the widow mine -> 2 medivac pushout earlier), and Protoss still has to fight consistently to keep Terran down to be able to transition or stay on the unit composition. If Terran sits back and only attacks if you transition, phoenix/adept still sucks.
I really don't get this argument, 55% over a sample size of 54 games is something to work with. And its pre-patch. And the patch is out for one or two weeks only. How can you balance whine this early?
I really don't get this argument, 55% over a sample size of 54 games is something to work with. And its pre-patch. And the patch is out for one or two weeks only. How can you balance whine this early?
You can't. Or at least you can't with any justification. But whiners will whine. It's what they've done since Wings came out and what they will do until the bitter end.
On March 20 2017 22:53 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really don't get this argument, 55% over a sample size of 54 games is something to work with. And its pre-patch. And the patch is out for one or two weeks only. How can you balance whine this early?
Because the patch never addressed the actual problem with PvT. Yes, protoss winrates will go up because phoenix/adept is better if you get off the ground now. But that's still a build order gamble and doesn't change the fact that protoss has one semi-viable playstyle only.
Because the patch never addressed the actual problem with PvT. Yes, protoss winrates will go up because phoenix/adept is better if you get off the ground now. But that's still a build order gamble.
The problem was that Protoss winrates were too low. If they go up, problem solved. ^Low winrates are not the only problem by any means but they were the big one all the Protosses were bitching about.
Once the winrates are even, then we can worry about build orders, race design, unit interaction, etc.
Because the patch never addressed the actual problem with PvT. Yes, protoss winrates will go up because phoenix/adept is better if you get off the ground now. But that's still a build order gamble.
The problem was that Protoss winrates were too low. If they go up, problem solved.
The blink era was never a problem according to that logic.
On March 20 2017 22:53 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really don't get this argument, 55% over a sample size of 54 games is something to work with. And its pre-patch. And the patch is out for one or two weeks only. How can you balance whine this early?
Because the patch never addressed the actual problem with PvT. Yes, protoss winrates will go up because phoenix/adept is better if you get off the ground now. But that's still a build order gamble and doesn't change the fact that protoss has one semi-viable playstyle only.
ok which patch would in your opinion adress the actual problem in PvT?
The blink era was never a problem according to that logic.
I checked out of Starcraft during that era because of school so I can't comment on that.
But I believe the issue at hand is current imbalance, not past imbalances. Besides, using historic imbalance as a justification for current imbalance makes absolutely no logical sense. It's the vindictive reasoning of an immature child.
On March 20 2017 22:53 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really don't get this argument, 55% over a sample size of 54 games is something to work with. And its pre-patch. And the patch is out for one or two weeks only. How can you balance whine this early?
Because the patch never addressed the actual problem with PvT. Yes, protoss winrates will go up because phoenix/adept is better if you get off the ground now. But that's still a build order gamble and doesn't change the fact that protoss has one semi-viable playstyle only.
ok which patch would in your opinion adress the actual problem in PvT?
Either a tank damage nerf against protoss, or a stalker health/shield buff to survive tank shells. The real issue in PvT is seriously just tank pushes. Especially raven -> tank push destroys robo so hard it's not even funny. I don't mind if the stalker buff is done through an upgrade that you can get in time, or just built in automatically. If tank pushes are solved, the whole matchup is fine. Right now everything revolves around them and the problem that protoss can't stop them and come out ahead with robo builds.
The blink era was never a problem according to that logic.
I checked out of Starcraft during that era because of school so I can't comment on that.
But I believe the issue at hand is current imbalance, not past imbalances. Besides, using historic imbalance as a justification for current imbalance makes absolutely no logical sense. It's the vindictive reasoning of an immature child.
You don't understand, apparently. Blink back then was a huge problem. The winrates just didn't reflect it properly. Protoss winrates might go up without the problem ever being addressed.
This is the most recent tournament. That's what you should be looking at.
If your complaints about balance are correct or not, this quote certainly is not true. You don't simply look at one tournament to decide balance, certainly not one that had pre patch qualifiers.
Either a tank damage nerf against protoss, or a stalker health/shield buff to survive tank shells. The real issue in PvT is seriously just tank pushes. Especially raven -> tank push destroys robo so hard it's not even funny. I don't mind if the stalker buff is done through an upgrade that you can get in time, or just built in automatically. If tank pushes are solved, the whole matchup is fine. Right now everything revolves around them and the problem that protoss can't stop them and come out ahead with robo builds.
Then how will you address the inevitable result of Protoss being favored over Terran? If you buff a currently balanced race, imbalance is the obvious and inevitable result.
If your complaints about balance are correct or not, this quote certainly is not true. You don't simply look at one tournament to decide balance, certainly not one that had pre patch qualifiers.
IEM Katowice was a global event and like all global events is really crappy statistical justification for anything because you are putting a bunch of foreigners and Koreans of wildly varying skill level against each other. Code S is a much better sample.
But even if you want to use IEM, look at the dates for the tournament and then the dates for Aligulac period 184. IEM falls within that period, whose PvT winrates were 49%. No significant imbalance.
You don't understand, apparently. Blink back then was a huge problem. The winrates just didn't reflect it properly. Protoss winrates might go up without the problem ever being addressed.
Ah, I see what you mean. You and I are talking about two different problems. You: How games are won Me: How many games are won
It's my belief that the latter should be addressed before the former. Once winrates are even, then we can worry about playstyle/viable builds/etc.
On March 20 2017 23:03 pvsnp wrote:Ah, I see what you mean. You and I are talking about two different problems. You: How games are won Me: How many games are won
Yes, I've been saying that the entire time. Winrates don't necessarily reflect the actual state of balance, otherwise PvT in 2014 would have been far worse for much longer. But what you got was statistics being distorted by only the best terrans ever qualifying and playing in tournaments, and those could still beat weaker Protoss. That's what's happening right now, only that there's just one Protoss competing with 4+ Terrans at the highest level, when it was Maru, Taeja, sometimes Flash and sometimes Cure in 2014.
Yes, I've been saying that the entire time. Winrates don't necessarily reflect the actual state of balance, otherwise PvT in 2014 would have been far worse for much longer. But what you got was statistics being distorted by only the best terrans ever qualifying and playing in tournaments, and those could still beat weaker Protoss. That's what's happening right now, only that there's just one Protoss competing with 4+ Terrans at the highest level, when it was Maru, Taeja, sometimes Flash and sometimes Cure in 2014.
Well, "how games are won" is a far trickier and more subtle problem to address than raw winrates. Playstyle of the individual player, build orders, mindgame/planning, degree of scouting, just plain old luck sometimes, etc; there's a lot of external factors that go into how an individual match is won or lost.
I prefer to focus on getting to the right winrates first. It's easier to understand, to monitor, and to adjust.
Unless a playstyle is simply unbeatable (and there haven't been any, though turtle mech came close) then meddling with balance simply because builds are homogenized or powerful seems premature imo.
On March 20 2017 23:03 pvsnp wrote:Ah, I see what you mean. You and I are talking about two different problems. You: How games are won Me: How many games are won
Yes, I've been saying that the entire time. Winrates don't necessarily reflect the actual state of balance, otherwise PvT in 2014 would have been far worse for much longer. But what you got was statistics being distorted by only the best terrans ever qualifying and playing in tournaments, and those could still beat weaker Protoss. That's what's happening right now, only that there's just one Protoss competing with 4+ Terrans at the highest level, when it was Maru, Taeja, sometimes Flash and sometimes Cure in 2014.
You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that. And if it is a problem it will get reflected over a sufficiently large amount of games.
You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that.
Tank pushes are very map-dependent and situational. Look at Games 5, 6, 7 of IEM Finals. Stats crushed TY's tank push with ease because they were on Honorgrounds and fought on open terrain. Compare that with Bel'shir where TY set up a hard contain uncontested, or Cactus with its narrow chokes.
And today, Inno's tank push completely failed against Zest because he unseiged and didn't reseige quite fast enough. It's very much a positional game, and the Protoss simply has to be aware of when the push moves out/where it is on the map. If Protosses let Terrans siege up and set up a hard contain, they shouldn't be surprised when they lose after that. The nerfs to libs/mines have significantly decreased the zoning power of Terran as it is.
On March 20 2017 23:03 pvsnp wrote:Ah, I see what you mean. You and I are talking about two different problems. You: How games are won Me: How many games are won
Yes, I've been saying that the entire time. Winrates don't necessarily reflect the actual state of balance, otherwise PvT in 2014 would have been far worse for much longer. But what you got was statistics being distorted by only the best terrans ever qualifying and playing in tournaments, and those could still beat weaker Protoss. That's what's happening right now, only that there's just one Protoss competing with 4+ Terrans at the highest level, when it was Maru, Taeja, sometimes Flash and sometimes Cure in 2014.
You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that. And if it is a problem it will get reflected over a sufficiently large amount of games.
Tank pushes have been a problem for months and no patch has addressed them, what are you on about? Why do you think I heard "phoenix/adept or die trying" from every protoss at IEM? Winrates and balance are not the same thing, as I just showed you with the blink era winrates. They lowest TvP winrate during that time (45%) was 5% higher than Protoss winrates just over a month ago, yet you'd be crazy to argue that the game wasn't far more imbalanced then.
You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that.
Tank pushes are very map-dependent and situational. Look at Games 5, 6, 7 of IEM Finals. Stats crushed TY's tank push with ease because they were on Honorgrounds and fought on open terrain. Compare that with Bel'shir where TY set up a contain uncontested, or Cactus with its narrow chokes.
TY also lost two mines and a medivac without doing any damage prior to that push, which really shouldn't happen.
On March 20 2017 22:30 Olli wrote: The balance whine in LRs?
I thought that's what you're here for?
I don't think you understand. Balance whine in LR doesn't happen when one guy comes in and everyone else trashtalks him, as is the case now. Balance whine in LR happens when everyone is being a dick and you get blamed for trying to say that you shouldn't balance whine.
On March 20 2017 23:03 pvsnp wrote:Ah, I see what you mean. You and I are talking about two different problems. You: How games are won Me: How many games are won
Yes, I've been saying that the entire time. Winrates don't necessarily reflect the actual state of balance, otherwise PvT in 2014 would have been far worse for much longer. But what you got was statistics being distorted by only the best terrans ever qualifying and playing in tournaments, and those could still beat weaker Protoss. That's what's happening right now, only that there's just one Protoss competing with 4+ Terrans at the highest level, when it was Maru, Taeja, sometimes Flash and sometimes Cure in 2014.
You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that. And if it is a problem it will get reflected over a sufficiently large amount of games.
Tank pushes have been a problem for months and no patch has addressed them, what are you on about? Why do you think I heard "phoenix/adept or die trying" from every protoss at IEM? Winrates and balance are not the same thing, as I just showed you with the blink era winrates. They lowest TvP winrate during that time (45%) was 5% higher than Protoss winrates just over a month ago, yet you'd be crazy to argue that the game wasn't far more imbalanced then.
You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that.
Tank pushes are very map-dependent and situational. Look at Games 5, 6, 7 of IEM Finals. Stats crushed TY's tank push with ease because they were on Honorgrounds and fought on open terrain. Compare that with Bel'shir where TY set up a contain uncontested, or Cactus with its narrow chokes.
TY also lost two mines and a medivac without doing any damage prior to that push, which really shouldn't happen.
Maybe the terrans were saying "tank pushes or die trying" then. I'm still impressed you think Terran is favored against Protoss.
On March 20 2017 23:03 pvsnp wrote:Ah, I see what you mean. You and I are talking about two different problems. You: How games are won Me: How many games are won
Yes, I've been saying that the entire time. Winrates don't necessarily reflect the actual state of balance, otherwise PvT in 2014 would have been far worse for much longer. But what you got was statistics being distorted by only the best terrans ever qualifying and playing in tournaments, and those could still beat weaker Protoss. That's what's happening right now, only that there's just one Protoss competing with 4+ Terrans at the highest level, when it was Maru, Taeja, sometimes Flash and sometimes Cure in 2014.
You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that. And if it is a problem it will get reflected over a sufficiently large amount of games.
Tank pushes have been a problem for months and no patch has addressed them, what are you on about? Why do you think I heard "phoenix/adept or die trying" from every protoss at IEM? Winrates and balance are not the same thing, as I just showed you with the blink era winrates. They lowest TvP winrate during that time (45%) was 5% higher than Protoss winrates just over a month ago, yet you'd be crazy to argue that the game wasn't far more imbalanced then.
You mean the state of gameplay quality? Because Balance and Winrates are the same thing, if you look at the relevant winrates (GSL/SSL). Maybe Tank pushes are a problem, but its imo too early to judge that.
Tank pushes are very map-dependent and situational. Look at Games 5, 6, 7 of IEM Finals. Stats crushed TY's tank push with ease because they were on Honorgrounds and fought on open terrain. Compare that with Bel'shir where TY set up a contain uncontested, or Cactus with its narrow chokes.
TY also lost two mines and a medivac without doing any damage prior to that push, which really shouldn't happen.
Balance and Winrates are the same thing imo. Maybe not the foreigner winrates but the GSL winrates for sure. Yes, it happens that GSL tends to reflect balance less quickly than other tournaments but otherwise we just don't have safe info and shouldnt judge too early.
And if I am to bring anecdotal evidence as well, I have seen a lot of awesome TvP macro games lately.
On March 21 2017 00:20 Poopi wrote: Does anyone know why they use such an outdated map pool tho? Ladder maps are decent right now and would be easier to practice for players.
If I had to guess I'd say they consulted the players on which map pool to use. And probably got a lot of objections for Paladino.
constructive criticism on the cast - when wolf was casting with valdes a lot of people didnt like him or didnt think his knowledge was "good enough," but what he brought to the casts with valdes was a lot of theorycrafting about the specific interactions of the players' strategies. even when he was outright wrong about something there were actually times when brendan disagreed or corrected him on things, and i liked that he was being active about discussing the interactions of the game, i liked the direction it took the casts in
the new guy (rapid?), he's obviously colorful and high-energy, and i don't think there's anything wrong with that, but i think sometimes he gets so distracted with his own jokes and tangents that it's honestly taking away from things going on in the game that could be talked about, and valdez seems to just go along with it a lot of the time
i actually think valdes is more knowledgeable than people give him credit for, and with rapid being more about play-by-play and catchphrases i think valdes could be taking the lead in doing more analysis. valdes may not be the "top analytical caster" or whatever but he's been doing sc2 long enough that he can follow the game and i think he definitely understands it a little bit more than rapid
On March 21 2017 00:47 brickrd wrote: constructive criticism on the cast - when wolf was casting with valdes a lot of people didnt like him or didnt think his knowledge was "good enough," but what he brought to the casts with valdes was a lot of theorycrafting about the specific interactions of the players' strategies. even when he was outright wrong about something there were actually times when brendan disagreed or corrected him on things, and i liked that he was being active about discussing the interactions of the game, i liked the direction it took the casts in
the new guy (rapid?), he's obviously colorful and high-energy, and i don't think there's anything wrong with that, but i think sometimes he gets so distracted with his own jokes and tangents that it's honestly taking away from things going on in the game that could be talked about, and valdez seems to just go along with it a lot of the time
i actually think valdes is more knowledgeable than people give him credit for, and with rapid being more about play-by-play and catchphrases i think valdes could be taking the lead in doing more analysis. valdes may not be the "top analytical caster" or whatever but he's been doing sc2 long enough that he can follow the game and i think he definitely understands it a little bit more than rapid
Rapid only replaced Wolf today because Wolf couldn't make it there, the main casting duo will be Wolf & Valdes. So your criticism probably won't amount to all too much at the end of the day.
I think analytical casting is overrated anyway. I don't need casters to constantly do predictions. I just want no-BS play by play casts. Or just say "I think XY is going to happen" instead of "XY is going to happen".
Or maybe just analyze in retrospect, when you know what has happened.
On March 21 2017 01:11 Aunvilgodess wrote: I think analytical casting is overrated anyway. I don't need casters to constantly do predictions. I just want no-BS play by play casts. Or just say "I think XY is going to happen" instead of "XY is going to happen".
Or maybe just analyze in retrospect, when you know what has happened.
Indeed. Especially in this community, where I think most of us could easily follow the flow of 90% of games with the stream muted.
Hell, I'd value a highly skilled observer much more over a purely analytical commentator. I cringe when I see a critical engagement being missed on the minimap while the camera hangs out at a Xel'naga tower or when the army/resources lost/income graphs aren't utilized enough.
Anyway, I find Rapid awesome and think he brings a certain liveliness to the cast. Keep him with either Valdez or Wolf, makes no difference to me.
On March 21 2017 04:23 SilentRaven wrote: In what way? Or, are you talking about your sexual prowess again..or lack thereof...if you are my mistake.
should be pretty clear
10-4, as a woman I can attest to us being very understanding in general....
In all seriousness though, I did think Maru played the series well, if there's anybody that knows sOs, Maru should be among them. Although in a longer series my money would still be on sOs, especially in a big tournament.
On March 21 2017 04:23 SilentRaven wrote: In what way? Or, are you talking about your sexual prowess again..or lack thereof...if you are my mistake.
should be pretty clear
10-4, as a woman I can attest to us being very understanding in general....
In all seriousness though, I did think Maru played the series well, if there's anybody that knows sOs, Maru should be among them. Although in a longer series my money would still be on sOs, especially in a big tournament.
I mean SSL is a big tournament, right? You should be glad that sOs along with Stats can still carry their poor race atm. Unlike other Protoss players, at least they can take one set from their teammates
EPT
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casters?
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