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On August 25 2016 22:45 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2016 22:37 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 22:25 RKC wrote:On August 25 2016 22:09 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 21:50 RKC wrote:On August 25 2016 19:50 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 12:13 RKC wrote:
Personally, I'm pleased Myungsik won:
- Gumiho is a gimmicky player playing a race that does not need to rely on gimmicks to win
- Gumiho knocked out Classic (one of the more well-balanced Protoss player who mixes gimmicky and standard plays well, and who had been in the running for double Starleagues)
- Myungsik, although gimmicky, plays a race that by nature relies heavily on gimmicks
(Yes, I'm not a fan of Gumiho. The main reason why he's on the rise, I feel, is due to the current LoTV meta favouring abusive gimmicky plays. Entertaining and innovative he may be, but a top Terran he is not.)
"I don't like GuMiho because he's gimmicky. MyuNgSiK is also gimmicky but that's okay because he's Protoss" What? It's very simple. Let me use a footballing analogy. On one side, there is a less skilful team like Italy that has to rely more on physicality, tactical fouls and the occasional dirty plays to win (Protoss). On the other side, there is a team brimming with talent and skills like Brazil (Terran), and yet the coach decides to play the team using the style of a Protoss (Gumiho). Italy and Brazil are both capable of winning the World Cup, provided they play according to their strengths. Not a very exact equivalent, but that's the rough logic. (Afterthought: Maybe I got the countries-race in reverse order, since Brazil-Protoss has been winning more tourneys.) Every player has to play to their own strengths as well as the strengths of their race. That's what both GuMiho and MyuNgSiK are doing. Every Starcraft player is different. There are Protoss players who don't cheese (or "rely on gimmicks") a lot (Zest or Rain from the past come to mind) if at all, and then there is someone like MyuNgSiK who in the eyes of some people only does that. Everyone has to do what works for them to be successful, and I don't see why it's okay if one player does it but not the other just because they play a different race. Not to mention, GuMiho is not a gimmicky player in TvT or TvZ at all, he plays quite standard most of the time, except in TvP. But if you watch other top Terrans recently, you will see a ton of gimmicky shit in TvP, so it's not like GuMiho is actually falling out of the norm there. I was just using a simple analogy. Of course, in actual fact, football teams aren't that one-dimensional. Italy has great technical ability too, and can play a patient, positional and defensive game (somewhat like macro Toss ala Zest and Rain). Yes, players should play to their strengths, and pick a race that suits their strengths. In my mind, Gumiho fits more in the Protoss mould. Just as Classic probably realised early on in SC2. Flash? Arguably Protoss would've fit him better too - he can turtle and macro up, and fall back to his early cheesy ways if he wish. I just don't see Gumiho ever becoming a Top Terran and winning tourneys. He probably might not be a champion had he switched to Protoss anyway, but he would've achieved more and gone deeper (as Myungsik and Patience has). Just a random musing I have, don't mean to start a shitstorm. He originally played Random professionally and then decided that Terran was the race that played the most to his strengths. Probably because he is one of the best multitaskers in the game. Besides, he's had multiple high tournament finishes in the past and was always a beast in teamleague play. He just never managed to make the final step and win an individual tournament. But I doubt if he picked Protoss back in Wings he would have won GSL in 2012 instead of going out in the semifinals. I didn't watch as much in the early years. But yes, I vaguely recall him having some sick Maru-esque drop plays. Maybe the meta has changed somewhat in LoTV too, favouring stronger Terran early game strats (which Gumiho adapted better than Maru). Still, I feel that Gumiho needs to strengthen up his mid game play to be a serious contender (like TY and Byun), which entails to cutting back on gimmicks.
Terrans in general are playing their TvP a bit more gimmicky these days. Things we've seen recently:
Maru
- drilling claws rush
- upgraded cyclone push/contain (attempt)
TY
- proxy mine drop into 1-1-1 with cyclones & liberators
- upgraded cyclone push/contain
INnoVation
- mech
- double factory on 1 base
I think that's just kinda the direction it's going atm at least for that one match-up. I don't really recall GuMiho doing too many crazy things in TvT or TvZ, and his mid-game in those looks pretty good most of the time.
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On August 25 2016 22:54 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2016 22:45 RKC wrote:On August 25 2016 22:37 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 22:25 RKC wrote:On August 25 2016 22:09 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 21:50 RKC wrote:On August 25 2016 19:50 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 12:13 RKC wrote:
Personally, I'm pleased Myungsik won:
- Gumiho is a gimmicky player playing a race that does not need to rely on gimmicks to win
- Gumiho knocked out Classic (one of the more well-balanced Protoss player who mixes gimmicky and standard plays well, and who had been in the running for double Starleagues)
- Myungsik, although gimmicky, plays a race that by nature relies heavily on gimmicks
(Yes, I'm not a fan of Gumiho. The main reason why he's on the rise, I feel, is due to the current LoTV meta favouring abusive gimmicky plays. Entertaining and innovative he may be, but a top Terran he is not.)
"I don't like GuMiho because he's gimmicky. MyuNgSiK is also gimmicky but that's okay because he's Protoss" What? It's very simple. Let me use a footballing analogy. On one side, there is a less skilful team like Italy that has to rely more on physicality, tactical fouls and the occasional dirty plays to win (Protoss). On the other side, there is a team brimming with talent and skills like Brazil (Terran), and yet the coach decides to play the team using the style of a Protoss (Gumiho). Italy and Brazil are both capable of winning the World Cup, provided they play according to their strengths. Not a very exact equivalent, but that's the rough logic. (Afterthought: Maybe I got the countries-race in reverse order, since Brazil-Protoss has been winning more tourneys.) Every player has to play to their own strengths as well as the strengths of their race. That's what both GuMiho and MyuNgSiK are doing. Every Starcraft player is different. There are Protoss players who don't cheese (or "rely on gimmicks") a lot (Zest or Rain from the past come to mind) if at all, and then there is someone like MyuNgSiK who in the eyes of some people only does that. Everyone has to do what works for them to be successful, and I don't see why it's okay if one player does it but not the other just because they play a different race. Not to mention, GuMiho is not a gimmicky player in TvT or TvZ at all, he plays quite standard most of the time, except in TvP. But if you watch other top Terrans recently, you will see a ton of gimmicky shit in TvP, so it's not like GuMiho is actually falling out of the norm there. I was just using a simple analogy. Of course, in actual fact, football teams aren't that one-dimensional. Italy has great technical ability too, and can play a patient, positional and defensive game (somewhat like macro Toss ala Zest and Rain). Yes, players should play to their strengths, and pick a race that suits their strengths. In my mind, Gumiho fits more in the Protoss mould. Just as Classic probably realised early on in SC2. Flash? Arguably Protoss would've fit him better too - he can turtle and macro up, and fall back to his early cheesy ways if he wish. I just don't see Gumiho ever becoming a Top Terran and winning tourneys. He probably might not be a champion had he switched to Protoss anyway, but he would've achieved more and gone deeper (as Myungsik and Patience has). Just a random musing I have, don't mean to start a shitstorm. He originally played Random professionally and then decided that Terran was the race that played the most to his strengths. Probably because he is one of the best multitaskers in the game. Besides, he's had multiple high tournament finishes in the past and was always a beast in teamleague play. He just never managed to make the final step and win an individual tournament. But I doubt if he picked Protoss back in Wings he would have won GSL in 2012 instead of going out in the semifinals. I didn't watch as much in the early years. But yes, I vaguely recall him having some sick Maru-esque drop plays. Maybe the meta has changed somewhat in LoTV too, favouring stronger Terran early game strats (which Gumiho adapted better than Maru). Still, I feel that Gumiho needs to strengthen up his mid game play to be a serious contender (like TY and Byun), which entails to cutting back on gimmicks. Terrans in general are playing their TvP a bit more gimmicky these days. Things we've seen recently: Maru - drilling claws rush - upgraded cyclone push/contain (attempt) TY - proxy mine drop into 1-1-1 with cyclones & liberators - upgraded cyclone push/contain INnoVation - mech - double factory on 1 base I think that's just kinda the direction it's going atm at least for that one match-up. I don't really recall GuMiho doing too many crazy things in TvT or TvZ, and his mid-game in those looks pretty good most of the time.
Nice breakdown.
Inno's early game strats are just bad lol... or maybe it's the execution
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On August 25 2016 22:58 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2016 22:54 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 22:45 RKC wrote:On August 25 2016 22:37 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 22:25 RKC wrote:On August 25 2016 22:09 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 21:50 RKC wrote:On August 25 2016 19:50 Elentos wrote:On August 25 2016 12:13 RKC wrote:
Personally, I'm pleased Myungsik won:
- Gumiho is a gimmicky player playing a race that does not need to rely on gimmicks to win
- Gumiho knocked out Classic (one of the more well-balanced Protoss player who mixes gimmicky and standard plays well, and who had been in the running for double Starleagues)
- Myungsik, although gimmicky, plays a race that by nature relies heavily on gimmicks
(Yes, I'm not a fan of Gumiho. The main reason why he's on the rise, I feel, is due to the current LoTV meta favouring abusive gimmicky plays. Entertaining and innovative he may be, but a top Terran he is not.)
"I don't like GuMiho because he's gimmicky. MyuNgSiK is also gimmicky but that's okay because he's Protoss" What? It's very simple. Let me use a footballing analogy. On one side, there is a less skilful team like Italy that has to rely more on physicality, tactical fouls and the occasional dirty plays to win (Protoss). On the other side, there is a team brimming with talent and skills like Brazil (Terran), and yet the coach decides to play the team using the style of a Protoss (Gumiho). Italy and Brazil are both capable of winning the World Cup, provided they play according to their strengths. Not a very exact equivalent, but that's the rough logic. (Afterthought: Maybe I got the countries-race in reverse order, since Brazil-Protoss has been winning more tourneys.) Every player has to play to their own strengths as well as the strengths of their race. That's what both GuMiho and MyuNgSiK are doing. Every Starcraft player is different. There are Protoss players who don't cheese (or "rely on gimmicks") a lot (Zest or Rain from the past come to mind) if at all, and then there is someone like MyuNgSiK who in the eyes of some people only does that. Everyone has to do what works for them to be successful, and I don't see why it's okay if one player does it but not the other just because they play a different race. Not to mention, GuMiho is not a gimmicky player in TvT or TvZ at all, he plays quite standard most of the time, except in TvP. But if you watch other top Terrans recently, you will see a ton of gimmicky shit in TvP, so it's not like GuMiho is actually falling out of the norm there. I was just using a simple analogy. Of course, in actual fact, football teams aren't that one-dimensional. Italy has great technical ability too, and can play a patient, positional and defensive game (somewhat like macro Toss ala Zest and Rain). Yes, players should play to their strengths, and pick a race that suits their strengths. In my mind, Gumiho fits more in the Protoss mould. Just as Classic probably realised early on in SC2. Flash? Arguably Protoss would've fit him better too - he can turtle and macro up, and fall back to his early cheesy ways if he wish. I just don't see Gumiho ever becoming a Top Terran and winning tourneys. He probably might not be a champion had he switched to Protoss anyway, but he would've achieved more and gone deeper (as Myungsik and Patience has). Just a random musing I have, don't mean to start a shitstorm. He originally played Random professionally and then decided that Terran was the race that played the most to his strengths. Probably because he is one of the best multitaskers in the game. Besides, he's had multiple high tournament finishes in the past and was always a beast in teamleague play. He just never managed to make the final step and win an individual tournament. But I doubt if he picked Protoss back in Wings he would have won GSL in 2012 instead of going out in the semifinals. I didn't watch as much in the early years. But yes, I vaguely recall him having some sick Maru-esque drop plays. Maybe the meta has changed somewhat in LoTV too, favouring stronger Terran early game strats (which Gumiho adapted better than Maru). Still, I feel that Gumiho needs to strengthen up his mid game play to be a serious contender (like TY and Byun), which entails to cutting back on gimmicks. Terrans in general are playing their TvP a bit more gimmicky these days. Things we've seen recently: Maru - drilling claws rush - upgraded cyclone push/contain (attempt) TY - proxy mine drop into 1-1-1 with cyclones & liberators - upgraded cyclone push/contain INnoVation - mech - double factory on 1 base I think that's just kinda the direction it's going atm at least for that one match-up. I don't really recall GuMiho doing too many crazy things in TvT or TvZ, and his mid-game in those looks pretty good most of the time. Nice breakdown. Inno's early game strats are just bad lol... or maybe it's the execution
I think it's more about the execution. Like when he did his mech build he had a marine, a widow mine and a cyclone. When Stats's regularly timed oracle arrived only the marine was anywhere near Inno's base. When he did the 2 factory push he dropped a MULE instead of saving up energy for scanning observers (although Trust did a great job microing against the cyclones).
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EPT
