WHAT $4,000 Map Test Tournament (THIS WILL BE INVITE ONLY)
WHERE BaseTradeTV will be providing coverage, if any other langauges want to get involved please contact @Rif_Kingz (Or via skype)
WHEN May 23-29th
WHY A map contest focused on highlighting potential new maps
Prizing will work as follows: 1st $1,000* 2nd $800* 3rd 600 4th 500 5th - 8th $100 * = All maps will be played, each win however is worth another $50
Scheduling will be as follows (Times posted once we have confirmed all players, catering to timezones)
Day 1 Matches #1 & 2 Bo9 Day 2 Matches #3 & 4 Bo9 Day 3 Matches #5 & 6 Bo9 Day 4 Matches #7 & 8 Bo9 Day 5 Round of 8 Bo9 Day 6 SemiFinals #1 Bo11 Day 7 SemiFinals #1 Bo11 Day 8 Finals 15 Maps - All maps played
Wednesday, May 25 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Theo vs Lillekanin & MaSa vs Neeb *Note: should match 1 finish early, Neeb cannot begin to play until at least 2 hours after the designated start due to school
We feel that Beastyqt vs Lambo will be a good display of what TvZ looks like in general, as both players are quite capable of the late game as well as early aggression, combined with the fact that both are very intelligent at using map mechanics to their advantage.
Theo vs Lillekanin is a somewhat mystical match up that, during the beta, showed us the only use of battlecruiser vs carrier/tempests. The best part was how often these two would win over the other, very back and forth, using the same turtle strategies. This combined with their very unconventional games, and Lillekanins very unconventional play style, I think will give us a great stress test of the new maps.
Mana and Nerchio will clearly showcase some of the best that Poland has to offer, not to mention extremely great players for this particular match up. We've seen both succeed and fail in our various cups and tournaments, Nerchio being the king of the weekly cups and Mana showing up and kicking ass for the bigger ones. However the thing we're looking most forward to, is both players adapted really quickly to the map "DETOX" (by Avex) that we threw into our map pool, and were able to play it in unique ways. This is what we want to see when testing new maps!
Puck and Harstem will provide some great PvP, our only regret is that we'll have to bounce back and forth on servers to handle it. Puck's PVP is some of the best NA has to offer right now, and Harstem is a tier 1 player (*cough*). In all seriousness though, we've seen both players handle micro in intense situations, and unlike Gods such as Parting, we don't expect them to "ruin" a map test contest by only blink all-in on every single map.
It had to be obvious we'd grab Neeb for one of the various matches. Recently, we got to watch him play vs Masa for the Dreamhack qualifiers, and it was a really great series, and we can't wait to watch this rematch.
Snute and uThermal are both very interesting players, who constantly sway from Godlike to "just really good" status in Starcraft. uThermal often showing early game aggression (hellbat pushes anyone?) can be a really scary player to play against, whereas Snute, if he can get to the late game, almost can't be beat. Their clashing styles combined with these new maps should really stress test the way each map can be played, and that's what we really want to see in this tournament
The overall bracket will be represented by this order, but here are the dates & matches: (Since Bo9's can really vary in time, we make no estimates on when the second match begins. It will always be after a short break once the first series concludes)
Wednesday, May 25 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Theo vs Lillekanin & MaSa vs Neeb *Note: should match 1 finish early, Neeb cannot begin to play until at least 2 hours after the designated start due to school
The last two match ups are the mirror matches featuring Bunny vs Kelazhur & Scarlett (who hasn't confirmed, so we have TLO on standby) vs Bly
Bunny competed in, and even placed second in our TvT only tournament shortly after Legacy's launch. Lucky for us the meta of TvT has not changed drastically in the months since then, so we're hoping to see Bunny kick some ass once again. More recently, Kelazhur has been performing well overall, but his TvT has looked quite nice (Watching him knock polt down to loser's bracket in the first season of Ting). We're hoping to see them abuse every cliff, ledge, and drop area on the new maps :-)
Bly vs Scarlett, both have played more ZvZ's than we can count, and while Scarlett's ZvZ has bounced around quite a bit, we've seen Bly kick ass at this match up ever since the first beta tournament we ran for LOTV. We're hoping to see lots of early pools, nydus worms, and mutalisks on all the new maps!
On May 17 2016 05:28 BasetradeTV wrote: The last two match ups are the mirror matches featuring Bunny vs Kelazhur & Scarlett (who hasn't confirmed, so we have TLO on standby) vs Bly
Bunny competed in, and even placed second in our TvT only tournament shortly after Legacy's launch. Lucky for us the meta of TvT has not changed drastically in the months since then, so we're hoping to see Bunny kick some ass once again. More recently, Kelazhur has been performing well overall, but his TvT has looked quite nice (Watching him knock polt down to loser's bracket in the first season of Ting). We're hoping to see them abuse every cliff, ledge, and drop area on the new maps :-)
Bly vs Scarlett, both have played more ZvZ's than we can count, and while Scarlett's ZvZ has bounced around quite a bit, we've seen Bly kick ass at this match up ever since the first beta tournament we ran for LOTV. We're hoping to see lots of early pools, nydus worms, and mutalisks on all the new maps!
Do we get a preview of the chosen maps before they are played?
On May 17 2016 05:28 BasetradeTV wrote: The last two match ups are the mirror matches featuring Bunny vs Kelazhur & Scarlett (who hasn't confirmed, so we have TLO on standby) vs Bly
Bunny competed in, and even placed second in our TvT only tournament shortly after Legacy's launch. Lucky for us the meta of TvT has not changed drastically in the months since then, so we're hoping to see Bunny kick some ass once again. More recently, Kelazhur has been performing well overall, but his TvT has looked quite nice (Watching him knock polt down to loser's bracket in the first season of Ting). We're hoping to see them abuse every cliff, ledge, and drop area on the new maps :-)
Bly vs Scarlett, both have played more ZvZ's than we can count, and while Scarlett's ZvZ has bounced around quite a bit, we've seen Bly kick ass at this match up ever since the first beta tournament we ran for LOTV. We're hoping to see lots of early pools, nydus worms, and mutalisks on all the new maps!
Do we get a preview of the chosen maps before they are played?
This is an open invite to any of the map makers, whom have their maps selected for the tournament, to join us on stream during one of the days to discuss their map. Only requirement is to have a half decent microphone and stable internet connection!
On May 17 2016 19:48 Wardi wrote: Maybe I'm being stupid, but when is the RO8 played? If RO16 is played over 4 days, then the schedule goes straight to semi-finals?
Wednesday, May 25 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Theo vs Lillekanin & MaSa vs Neeb *Note: should match 1 finish early, Neeb cannot begin to play until at least 2 hours after the designated start due to school
On May 17 2016 19:48 Wardi wrote: Maybe I'm being stupid, but when is the RO8 played? If RO16 is played over 4 days, then the schedule goes straight to semi-finals?
Wednesday, May 25 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Theo vs Lillekanin & MaSa vs Neeb *Note: should match 1 finish early, Neeb cannot begin to play until at least 2 hours after the designated start due to school
May 27th (Likely at same start time as all the others) - SemiFinals #1 May 28th (Likely at same start time as all the others) - SemiFinals #2
May 30th - Grand Finals
So, 16 players at the beginning. Monday TvZ and PvP, say Z and P advances to next round. 2 players have advanced. Tuesday ZvZ and ZvT, say Z and T advances to next round. 4 players have advanced. Wednesday PvT and TvP, say P and T advances to next round. 6 players have advanced. Thursday TvT and PvZ, say T and P advances to next round. 8 players have advanced. Friday round of 4, match #1. Saturday, round of 4 match #2. Sunday, grand final, round of 2.
When will the round of 8 be played? Will the winners of round of 16 play each other the same day? Rifkin, your clarification missed the round of 8.
On May 17 2016 19:48 Wardi wrote: Maybe I'm being stupid, but when is the RO8 played? If RO16 is played over 4 days, then the schedule goes straight to semi-finals?
Wednesday, May 25 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Theo vs Lillekanin & MaSa vs Neeb *Note: should match 1 finish early, Neeb cannot begin to play until at least 2 hours after the designated start due to school
May 27th (Likely at same start time as all the others) - SemiFinals #1 May 28th (Likely at same start time as all the others) - SemiFinals #2
May 30th - Grand Finals
So, 16 players at the beginning. Monday TvZ and PvP, say Z and P advances to next round. 2 players have advanced. Tuesday ZvZ and ZvT, say Z and T advances to next round. 4 players have advanced. Wednesday PvT and TvP, say P and T advances to next round. 6 players have advanced. Thursday TvT and PvZ, say T and P advances to next round. 8 players have advanced. Friday round of 4, match #1. Saturday, round of 4 match #2. Sunday, grand final, round of 2.
When will the round of 8 be played? Will the winners of round of 16 play each other the same day? Rifkin, your clarification missed the round of 8.
Ah yea I shifted everything by 1 day, I mistook when i wrote it down, will fix after stream today ! <3
Since I had goofed in the previous post here is the full up to date schedule. Some times may change to accomodate players such as Neeb or Scarlett depending on their performance:
Wednesday, May 25 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Theo vs Lillekanin & MaSa vs Neeb *Note: should match 1 finish early, Neeb cannot begin to play until at least 2 hours after the designated start due to school
How does one submit a map for this contest? Is it too late? The TLMC submission protocol was always very confusing to me and I could never figure it out.
Please PM your map file(s) to TLMC7 with the following format before Wednesday, May 11 8:59pm PDT (GMT-07:00). Please title your PMs with the name of the map and keep all submissions to 1 map per PM.
With this in the PM:
Map Name A picture of your map-Note: Please mark start locations and describe any starting location constraints The size (dimensions) of the map The map category you wish to enter with this map. Any secondary categories you think this map might fit. A description of the map. Why the map fits the primary category you selected. Why the map fits any secondary categories you selected. Main to Main distance: (in-game seconds using a worker from town hall to town hall) Natural to Natural distance: (in-game seconds using a worker from town hall to town hall) Any relevant analyzer images (optional) A download link to your map
There was a whole section dedicated to how to submit it and when.
On May 17 2016 11:32 BasetradeTV wrote: This is an open invite to any of the map makers, whom have their maps selected for the tournament, to join us on stream during one of the days to discuss their map. Only requirement is to have a half decent microphone and stable internet connection!
If my maps make it I'll be sure to take you up on that offer!
On May 17 2016 11:32 BasetradeTV wrote: This is an open invite to any of the map makers, whom have their maps selected for the tournament, to join us on stream during one of the days to discuss their map. Only requirement is to have a half decent microphone and stable internet connection!
If my maps make it I'll be sure to take you up on that offer!
Yeah, though a single game isn't significant, that game really reflected a bunch of the criticism that has been made about Namaste. The map is so pretty though.
Oh yeah, aggressively destroying the rocks on Miris Spele is pretty cool.
edit: And that tank push is really smart too. beasty is great at this. However I don't think this works when people are used to this map. This "abuse" looks a lot less fundamental than the abuse on Namaste.
On May 24 2016 02:42 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Oh yeah, aggressively destroying the rocks on Miris Spele is pretty cool.
edit: And that tank push is really smart too. beasty is great at this. However I don't think this works when people are used to this map. This "abuse" looks a lot less fundamental than the abuse on Namaste.
While beasty is smart with it, Lambo is not.
On the last map the 2 base play was obvious as hell and he wasnt prepaired at all. I guess we will see 3 more 2 base pushes against a 4 base Zerg with 75 drones and zero army.
On May 24 2016 03:03 Clonester wrote: Lambo... spire????
Liberators.
Corrupters
Against possible 6+ liberators with basically no bank?
If you have armor on them (thats why you should add a spire early, at least for the upgrade), 6+ liberator are no problem, as then enemy is missing anti-ground.
On May 24 2016 03:03 Clonester wrote: Lambo... spire????
Liberators.
Corrupters
Against possible 6+ liberators with basically no bank?
If you have armor on them (thats why you should add a spire early, at least for the upgrade), 6+ liberator are no problem, as then enemy is missing anti-ground.
And yeah, battlecruiser wasnt the best choice :D
I don't think it was viable after failing the Nydus attack.
On May 24 2016 03:03 Clonester wrote: Lambo... spire????
Liberators.
Corrupters
Against possible 6+ liberators with basically no bank?
If you have armor on them (thats why you should add a spire early, at least for the upgrade), 6+ liberator are no problem, as then enemy is missing anti-ground.
And yeah, battlecruiser wasnt the best choice :D
I don't think it was viable after failing the Nydus attack.
Now he has no counter against the battlecruiser. He doesnt even have the option to build corrupters. Battlecruiser with Liberator-AG will just reck the hydras.
In a way the fact that every single map looked kinda broken so far means this map test tournament is accomplishing its purpose. For Namaste and Dasan it looked like the issues were kinda fundamental, New Gettysburg felt borderline, and I thought the builds on Apotheosis and Galactic Process were perfectly beatable by a prepared opponent.
On May 24 2016 04:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote: In a way the fact that every single map looked kinda broken so far means this map test tournament is accomplishing its purpose. For Namaste and Dasan it looked like the issues were kinda fundamental, New Gettysburg felt borderline, and I thought the builds on Apotheosis and Galactic Process were perfectly beatable by a prepared opponent.
Hmm, I think you are right for Namaste, that should be quite the terran abuser map.
Apotheosis looked quite good.
Galactic Process... reminds me of heavy rains deadly cliff of blink doom. And yeah, Cloud Kingdom.
New Gettysburg looked nice, the airblockers have been a bit over the top, but else I really liked how the map plays out and I see alot of potential on that map.
Dasan has the missed rocks and thus looks terrible at the moment. Without them there is a high chance of still being unplayable, but we will see in this tournament.
On May 24 2016 04:17 chipmonklord17 wrote: Couldn't Harstem have just made a nexus where the adepts currently are and mine from the gold and the blue bases at once
The gases are inside though.
edit: Harstem has opened a path through the gold base. He should have an easier time defending than puCK now.
On May 24 2016 04:17 chipmonklord17 wrote: Couldn't Harstem have just made a nexus where the adepts currently are and mine from the gold and the blue bases at once
The gases are inside though.
But having 2 (or 3.5 because of gold) bases of minerals and 1 of gas for the price of a single nexus sounds more worth it than taking the gold as your natural
On May 24 2016 04:17 chipmonklord17 wrote: Couldn't Harstem have just made a nexus where the adepts currently are and mine from the gold and the blue bases at once
The gases are inside though.
But having 2 (or 3.5 because of gold) bases of minerals and 1 of gas for the price of a single nexus sounds more worth it than taking the gold as your natural
The bases aren't close enough.
edit: Dasan seems pretty suitable for a format like Proleague where you can choose the race to send out. Less so for ladder.
On May 24 2016 04:17 chipmonklord17 wrote: Couldn't Harstem have just made a nexus where the adepts currently are and mine from the gold and the blue bases at once
The gases are inside though.
But having 2 (or 3.5 because of gold) bases of minerals and 1 of gas for the price of a single nexus sounds more worth it than taking the gold as your natural
The bases aren't close enough.
Fair enough. Although I doubt its so far away to not make it more worth it economically. Maybe not for Terran and Protoss due to how quickly they build workers but I imagine for a Zerg it could be better than just taking the gold
On May 24 2016 04:17 chipmonklord17 wrote: Couldn't Harstem have just made a nexus where the adepts currently are and mine from the gold and the blue bases at once
The gases are inside though.
But having 2 (or 3.5 because of gold) bases of minerals and 1 of gas for the price of a single nexus sounds more worth it than taking the gold as your natural
The bases aren't close enough.
edit: Dasan seems pretty suitable for a format like Proleague where you can choose the race to send out. Less so for ladder.
That bunker rush being possible is obviously a mistake (as others have remarked). Without that the cheese gets less potent. Plus BQT was way better than Lambo during the series.
On May 24 2016 04:17 chipmonklord17 wrote: Couldn't Harstem have just made a nexus where the adepts currently are and mine from the gold and the blue bases at once
The gases are inside though.
But having 2 (or 3.5 because of gold) bases of minerals and 1 of gas for the price of a single nexus sounds more worth it than taking the gold as your natural
The bases aren't close enough.
edit: Dasan seems pretty suitable for a format like Proleague where you can choose the race to send out. Less so for ladder.
That bunker rush being possible is obviously a mistake (as others have remarked). Without that the cheese gets less potent. Plus BQT was way better than Lambo during the series.
Of course. Nevertheless the gameplay seen in that game didn't inspire much confidence. Hopefully we'll see more of Dasan and get a better idea.
On May 24 2016 04:58 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really like disruptor wars
I feel like I'd like watching disruptors more if their balls weren't faster than most ground units.
But it's already hard to hit anything with the balls as fast as they are. They're already mostly out of the meta for all Protoss MUs in Korea because Koreans just dodge.
On May 24 2016 04:58 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really like disruptor wars
I feel like I'd like watching disruptors more if their balls weren't faster than most ground units.
But it's already hard to hit anything with the balls as fast as they are. They're already mostly out of the meta for all Protoss MUs in Korea because Koreans just dodge.
I'm not saying its imbalanced or anything, I just don't really find it that cool of an interaction between other units. They're in the "amazing fungals" tier for me, where good ones are really good sure but most of them aren't nearly as amazing as they're made out to be
On May 24 2016 04:58 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really like disruptor wars
I feel like I'd like watching disruptors more if their balls weren't faster than most ground units.
But it's already hard to hit anything with the balls as fast as they are. They're already mostly out of the meta for all Protoss MUs in Korea because Koreans just dodge.
I'm not saying its imbalanced or anything, I just don't really find it that cool of an interaction between other units. They're in the "amazing fungals" tier for me, where good ones are really good sure but most of them aren't nearly as amazing as they're made out to be
they're a consistent display of skill on both sides though, while fungals were just "click on the biggest clump of units"
There was a colossus build in PvP during the Proleague finals. Didn't work out though.
Also Galactic Process has really impressed me this game. I thought of it only as an average finalist, but this game has really shown how well placed the ramps, rocks and LOS blockers are.
On May 24 2016 04:58 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really like disruptor wars
I feel like I'd like watching disruptors more if their balls weren't faster than most ground units.
They'd be pretty useless then.
On May 24 2016 05:08 Elentos wrote:
On May 24 2016 05:06 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On May 24 2016 04:58 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really like disruptor wars
I feel like I'd like watching disruptors more if their balls weren't faster than most ground units.
But it's already hard to hit anything with the balls as fast as they are. They're already mostly out of the meta for all Protoss MUs in Korea because Koreans just dodge.
I'm not saying its imbalanced or anything, I just don't really find it that cool of an interaction between other units. They're in the "amazing fungals" tier for me, where good ones are really good sure but most of them aren't nearly as amazing as they're made out to be
they're a consistent display of skill on both sides though, while fungals were just "click on the biggest clump of units"
But they aren't. They outspeed most units, giving the player who is using the discuptor a better chance at causing damage than the player who is defending from it. And I was using "amazing fungals" as an easily understood example of the situation, not comparing WoL fungaling to disruptors.
For example that last disruptor shot that killed 6 disruptors was actually a really good shot, but randomly shaving off a few stalkers or zealots that you're already faster than isn't interesting. You're already faster than those units
EDIT: I'm curious how this map will turn out without terran
On May 24 2016 04:58 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really like disruptor wars
I feel like I'd like watching disruptors more if their balls weren't faster than most ground units.
They'd be pretty useless then.
On May 24 2016 05:08 Elentos wrote:
On May 24 2016 05:06 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On May 24 2016 04:58 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really like disruptor wars
I feel like I'd like watching disruptors more if their balls weren't faster than most ground units.
But it's already hard to hit anything with the balls as fast as they are. They're already mostly out of the meta for all Protoss MUs in Korea because Koreans just dodge.
I'm not saying its imbalanced or anything, I just don't really find it that cool of an interaction between other units. They're in the "amazing fungals" tier for me, where good ones are really good sure but most of them aren't nearly as amazing as they're made out to be
they're a consistent display of skill on both sides though, while fungals were just "click on the biggest clump of units"
But they aren't. They outspeed most units, giving the player who is using the discuptor a better chance at causing damage than the player who is defending from it. And I was using "amazing fungals" as an easily understood example of the situation, not comparing WoL fungaling to disruptors.
For example that last disruptor shot that killed 6 disruptors was actually a really good shot, but randomly shaving off a few stalkers or zealots that you're already faster than isn't interesting. You're already faster than those units
EDIT: I'm curious how this map will turn out without terran
You can still split to minimize damage and snipe disruptors. There's a reason why they are relatively niche in the Korean meta.
Also Galactic Process has really impressed me this game. I thought of it only as an average finalist, but this game has really shown how well placed the ramps, rocks and LOS blockers are.
Yeah turns out Cloud Kingdom was and still is a good map
Also Galactic Process has really impressed me this game. I thought of it only as an average finalist, but this game has really shown how well placed the ramps, rocks and LOS blockers are.
Yeah turns out Cloud Kingdom was and still is a good map
It's also the things that are different from cloud kingdom like the ramp and watch tower placement that impressed me.
Also the current game so far feels like a game on Ulrena except with the players getting caught out by the air pathing.
On May 24 2016 04:58 Aunvilgodess wrote: I really like disruptor wars
I feel like I'd like watching disruptors more if their balls weren't faster than most ground units.
But it's already hard to hit anything with the balls as fast as they are. They're already mostly out of the meta for all Protoss MUs in Korea because Koreans just dodge.
I'm not saying its imbalanced or anything, I just don't really find it that cool of an interaction between other units. They're in the "amazing fungals" tier for me, where good ones are really good sure but most of them aren't nearly as amazing as they're made out to be
The whole point is that you try to hit the other army while dodging yourself. Looks like its one of the most skill intensive things in the game.
Dasan was fairly good in PvP, worked much better than in the last match. Didn't like Frozen Zone too much, map felt gigantic and the minimap was hard to read... Liked Galactic Process, an improved Cloud Kingdom imho. Missed Shiva, so no idea.
On May 24 2016 05:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote: The fact that we're seeing so many blink stalker/disruptor is more reflective of the playstyle of the players than the maps though.
edit: The fact that the orange decals go over the unbuildable rocks somehow bothers me a lot.
Yeah its still more interesting than Immortal Archon Zealot imo.
it's like if you added 1 more base on each side edge and took out 1 on the top and bottom. I mean it's not super close but it made me think of Abyssal City
it's like if you added 1 more base on each side edge and took out 1 on the top and bottom. I mean it's not super close but it made me think of Abyssal City
Oh. I somehow never realized it was supposed to be an underwater map. It does look kinda superficially similar, but I feel it plays very different. For example games on Abyssal City usually revolved around losing that bottom left/top right third, while the third and fourth bases on this map only have one entrance.
On May 24 2016 05:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote: The fact that we're seeing so many blink stalker/disruptor is more reflective of the playstyle of the players than the maps though.
edit: The fact that the orange decals go over the unbuildable rocks somehow bothers me a lot.
Yeah its still more interesting than Immortal Archon Zealot imo.
I guess, but for a map test tournament having such stylistic players can be seen as a disadvantage.
On May 24 2016 06:42 Plexa wrote: Aiur Plateau is really weird in an awesome way.
Yeah it's a beautiful map with so many quirky designs thrown together in a way that somehow fits. It's also the most confusing map since Raid Assault, and would probably be more vetoed than KCK if it ended up on ladder.
it's like if you added 1 more base on each side edge and took out 1 on the top and bottom. I mean it's not super close but it made me think of Abyssal City
Oh. I somehow never realized it was supposed to be an underwater map. It does look kinda superficially similar, but I feel it plays very different. For example games on Abyssal City usually revolved around losing that bottom left/top right third, while the third and fourth bases on this map only have one entrance.
On May 24 2016 05:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote: The fact that we're seeing so many blink stalker/disruptor is more reflective of the playstyle of the players than the maps though.
edit: The fact that the orange decals go over the unbuildable rocks somehow bothers me a lot.
Yeah its still more interesting than Immortal Archon Zealot imo.
I guess, but for a map test tournament having such stylistic players can be seen as a disadvantage.
It's not a player-based stylistic thing, it's a foreigner vs korean thing. All foreigners prefer Stalker/Disruptor while all koreans prefer Zealot/Immortal/Archon.
it's like if you added 1 more base on each side edge and took out 1 on the top and bottom. I mean it's not super close but it made me think of Abyssal City
Oh. I somehow never realized it was supposed to be an underwater map. It does look kinda superficially similar, but I feel it plays very different. For example games on Abyssal City usually revolved around losing that bottom left/top right third, while the third and fourth bases on this map only have one entrance.
On May 24 2016 06:05 Aunvilgodess wrote:
On May 24 2016 05:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote: The fact that we're seeing so many blink stalker/disruptor is more reflective of the playstyle of the players than the maps though.
edit: The fact that the orange decals go over the unbuildable rocks somehow bothers me a lot.
Yeah its still more interesting than Immortal Archon Zealot imo.
I guess, but for a map test tournament having such stylistic players can be seen as a disadvantage.
It's not a player-based stylistic thing, it's a foreigner vs korean thing. All foreigners prefer Stalker/Disruptor while all koreans prefer Zealot/Immortal/Archon.
Sure, but while most foreigners like stalker/disruptors, puCK and Harstems are die-hards that will and did play it (with minor variations) 9 maps in a row. Most foreigners would have thrown in an adept all-in or fast tempests somewhere down the line.
I think it's a little early to be judging any map, for good or bad.
Especially because I don't think today honestly told us very much, other than we found several bugs (rock / unbuildable rock misplacement, lots of mineral placement/amount errors, etc.). You had a clear mismatch in the first match so hard to take anything too seriously there, and then you had a mirror match which doesn't tell you much about a map's balance.
Ready for some PvZ, that's the one that usually makes or breaks maps.
On May 24 2016 10:23 Fatam wrote: I think it's a little early to be judging any map, for good or bad.
Especially because I don't think today honestly told us very much, other than we found several bugs (rock / unbuildable rock misplacement, lots of mineral placement/amount errors, etc.). You had a clear mismatch in the first match so hard to take anything too seriously there, and then you had a mirror match which doesn't tell you much about a map's balance.
Ready for some PvZ, that's the one that usually makes or breaks maps.
There aren't really enough games in this tournament or any tournament that Blizzard could reasonably organize to pin down the balance of all these maps. It can teach us about how the map plays out though which is much more valuable. I feel like every single map played today gave some information about how the map could play out in the future (except maybe for that reaper rush on Galactic Process).
I'm likewise really excited for PvZ, though I probably won't be able to watch it live due to exams. I assume the VODs will be on Basetrade's Youtube channel?
On May 24 2016 17:05 phagga wrote: Sooo.... what is the result of Harstem vs Puck? It says 3-3 in the bracket, did they not finish their series? If not, when will it continue?
On May 24 2016 17:05 phagga wrote: Sooo.... what is the result of Harstem vs Puck? It says 3-3 in the bracket, did they not finish their series? If not, when will it continue?
It's like the Slam Dunk competition in Starcraft. If you want to see something a little different, something, no one's ever seen before. This should be the place where it happens. The map-minds in Custom maps have authored original worlds for the pros, and spectators alike, to engage in glorious strategy. Now It is up to the pros to blow our minds.
Okay, that was a cool game. So far, I remember a cool game between Lambo and Beasty on New Gettysburg, between Harstem and Puck on Auir Plateau and this one on Eris.
On May 25 2016 01:37 Ingvar wrote: How fast are the maps fixed? Will the gas issue on Caldeum Plateau fixed by tomorrow (flying corpses can wait, I guess)?
I didn't see the PvP on it but the missing plat on Dasan Station's ramp near the gold base was already fixed today
Oh no, I tuned it at 1pm thinking games started at 1pm again (my lunch break during work) and now I'm missed the entire first series and games 1 & 2 of this series.
Quick, someone give me a rundown on what maps / strats got used! <3!
Wow uthermal, that was quick. on a side note, I don't mind that one of the gases don't work. That would be one of those "interesting" map addition Blizzard claim to love, but instead makes gimmicky maps.
On May 25 2016 02:07 SidianTheBard wrote: Oh no, I tuned it at 1pm thinking games started at 1pm again (my lunch break during work) and now I'm missed the entire first series and games 1 & 2 of this series.
Quick, someone give me a rundown on what maps / strats got used! <3!
I had to leave in the middle of the first series but the maps I saw were + Show Spoiler +
Dasan Station - both went 1 base roach, Scarlett then took the gold and Bly attacked with slow lings and ravagers, Scarlett held and Bly took his own gold. Scarlett counter attacked with speedling ravager roach and won
Namaste - Scarlett went 1 base burrow roach while Bly just went 2 base speedling bane. Bly scouted the 1 base play and held easily for the win
Gojira Greenhouse - Scarlett tried to rush to hive but Bly went mutas and killed her 3rd. Bly eventually overran her with roaches and mutas while Scarlett was only able to get like 3 ultras out with shit upgrades
missed a few games here
Eris - muta vs muta war into late game mass ultras. both players took heavy tech losses in runbys and basetrade like attacks. Bly eventually won after blocking all of Scarlett's ultras into the top right base on the narrow ramp with hold position from his own ultras and queens so scarlett could only fight with 1 at a time. crazy long back and forth game
Caldeum Plateau - Scarlett took a hidden base in the top center (spawned in the lower right). muta vs muta war with Scarlett getting way more stuff due to having the hidden base and winning easily
Snute vs uThermal game 1 was on Annihilation Station. Didn't see the whole thing but it was 2-2 bio with late tanks vs 2-2 lings + some 0-2 ravagers and Snute was on hive tech ready to transition but was on 4 bases and finished uThermal off after holding his aggression
Snute vs uThermal game 2 on Caldeum Plataeu - snute expanded to the gold and a blue base. uThermal went for hellbat attack and Snute made roaches instant gg
On May 25 2016 02:23 Musicus wrote: I thought it's a tournament to test the maps? To test rushes like that is extremely important.
We should be thankful, playing macro on every map will not help. How can anybody complain.
anyone can test that...
If a player looks at a map and thinks "hm rush X could work here", he should try it. Just like TLO doing a drone rush vs Drogo in a practice session, it's a valid strategy and can be used in any tournament and should be tested.
Making a rule that says "please make sure to only play macro and long games" would really deminish the quality of this tournament and the test results imo.
On May 25 2016 02:23 Musicus wrote: I thought it's a tournament to test the maps? To test rushes like that is extremely important.
We should be thankful, playing macro on every map will not help. How can anybody complain.
anyone can test that...
If a player looks at a map and thinks "hm rush X could work here", he should try it. Just like TLO doing a drone rush vs Drogo in a practice session, it's a valid strategy and can be used in any tournament and should be tested.
Making a rule that says "please make sure to only play macro and long games" would really deminish the quality of this tournament and the test results imo.
I don't think anyone would bet on that working. I expect the strategy was a result of him looking at the map and thinking "this looks like it will be too hard to win a normal game anyways, why waste my time". I think that's rude to the map makers to not even try to play a legitimate strategy. I mean you could at least baneling rush or ravager rush, something that at least tests the map - since it is a map testing tournament. That's literally why they are getting paid. It's why Rifkin privately talked to them about it after that game.
(sure, the drone rush *could* work... but very rarely, lol)
I wasn't expecting to see so many different glitches and problems on the maps. Caldeum Plateau has a blocked geyser and floating corpses, Frozen Zone had doodads without proper pathing and got those two units got stuck on it, etc.
How can they test them? They can only do so with help of the community, which they are doing so currently (in a way). They are mostly enthusiast map makers. It's not like they have a whole team of guys being paid to do so, like Blizzard does, who rather noticebly do muck up their maps from time to time.
On May 25 2016 02:23 Musicus wrote: I thought it's a tournament to test the maps? To test rushes like that is extremely important.
We should be thankful, playing macro on every map will not help. How can anybody complain.
anyone can test that...
If a player looks at a map and thinks "hm rush X could work here", he should try it. Just like TLO doing a drone rush vs Drogo in a practice session, it's a valid strategy and can be used in any tournament and should be tested.
Making a rule that says "please make sure to only play macro and long games" would really deminish the quality of this tournament and the test results imo.
I don't think anyone would bet on that working. I expect the strategy was a result of him looking at the map and thinking "this looks like it will be too hard to win a normal game anyways, why waste my time". I think that's rude to the map makers to not even try to play a legitimate strategy. I mean you could at least baneling rush or ravager rush, something that at least tests the map - since it is a map testing tournament. That's literally why they are getting paid. It's why Rifkin privately talked to them about it after that game.
(sure, the drone rush *could* work... but very rarely, lol)
Well we have to agee to disagree then. Snute is obviously taking this very seriously and I am 100% certain that he did not think what you say he did.
After the game he said that he meant no disrespect and was just seriously trying to test the map and I don't see a difference between Beasty's proxy reaper rushes yesterday and what Snute did. Rifkin having words with the players was comletely unnecessary and disrespectful to the players. It basically implies that he thinks Snute didn't take it serious, which I assure you he did. It was an honest try.
On May 25 2016 03:29 Dangermousecatdog wrote: How can they test them? They can only do so with help of the community, which they are doing so currently (in a way). They are mostly enthusiast map makers. It's not like they have a whole team of guys being paid to do so, like Blizzard does, who rather noticebly do muck up their maps from time to time.
Playing the maps a few times against a friend or an AI? You wouldn't notice everything, but considering the number of bugs that have surfaced in the very small number of maps played you'd certainly catch a bunch of these.
Yeah I suppose that's true, but cut the mapmakers some slack. It's not as if they were given a lot of time to make or polish their maps. Blizzard themselves managed to make a whole base location unbuildable!
i tried a strategy that i thought in good faith would work, it was awful so i'm sorry, i LOST A MAP because of it. isn't that enough? the last thing i want when playing this is additional pressure like this or some sort of moral police. i won games in the past on maps like steppes of war and waystation close positions including online tournaments as well using drone pulls. yes i could have played more custom games on this map before going for this strategy and obviously scrapped it since it did not turn out to be a powerful build but please just let the players play in good faith trying to win, i already paid my penalty with a MINUS POINT mapscore. i don't want to have to compete while feeling anxious about higher ups or administrators calling disrespect in the MIDDLE of the series. sorry for my bad play and showing ONE terrible cheese in a bunch of attempted macro games.
seriously ruined my evening to even think that i need to consider this. maybe put up disclaimers next time or maybe invite higher lever players that you can maybe expect more from? sorry, just really infuriating to get messaged in the middle of a tournament, i'm playing so much worse now and can't get this type of anger out of my system very quickly. really, really sad day for me in starcraft honestly.
and now i lost, you will not have to see similar bad builds again. i will try to do better next time, if there is an appropriate occasion.
Edit: I think Rifkin taking time out to go ahead and tell the audience that he was going to have words and so on and so forth was rather inappropriate personally. Ultimately it is a tournament, and the players should be free to execute how they decide to play irregardless of whether it is a testmap or not.
On May 25 2016 03:49 Liquid`Snute wrote: i tried a strategy that i thought in good faith would work, it was awful so i'm sorry, i LOST A MAP because of it. isn't that enough? the last thing i want when playing this is additional pressure like this or some sort of moral police. i won games in the past on maps like steppes of war and waystation close positions including online tournaments as well using drone pulls. yes i could have played more custom games on this map before going for this strategy and obviously scrapped it since it did not turn out to be a powerful build but please just let the players play in good faith trying to win, i already paid my penalty with a MINUS POINT mapscore. i don't want to have to compete while feeling anxious about higher ups or administrators calling disrespect in the MIDDLE of the series. sorry for my bad play and showing ONE terrible cheese in a bunch of attempted macro games.
seriously ruined my evening to even think that i need to consider this. maybe put up disclaimers next time or maybe invite higher lever players that you can maybe expect more from? sorry, just really infuriating to get messaged in the middle of a tournament, i'm playing so much worse now and can't get this type of anger out of my system very quickly. really, really sad day for me in starcraft honestly.
and now i lost, you will not have to see similar bad builds again. i will try to do better next time, if there is an appropriate occasion.
Just keep trying and don´t mind people who talk shit. Shame that you lost, but better luck next time
On May 25 2016 03:49 Liquid`Snute wrote: i tried a strategy that i thought in good faith would work, it was awful so i'm sorry, i LOST A MAP because of it. isn't that enough? the last thing i want when playing this is additional pressure like this or some sort of moral police. i won games in the past on maps like steppes of war and waystation close positions including online tournaments as well using drone pulls. yes i could have played more custom games on this map before going for this strategy and obviously scrapped it since it did not turn out to be a powerful build but please just let the players play in good faith trying to win, i already paid my penalty with a MINUS POINT mapscore. i don't want to have to compete while feeling anxious about higher ups or administrators calling disrespect in the MIDDLE of the series. sorry for my bad play and showing ONE terrible cheese in a bunch of attempted macro games.
seriously ruined my evening to even think that i need to consider this. maybe put up disclaimers next time or maybe invite higher lever players that you can maybe expect more from? sorry, just really infuriating to get messaged in the middle of a tournament, i'm playing so much worse now and can't get this type of anger out of my system very quickly. really, really sad day for me in starcraft honestly.
and now i lost, you will not have to see similar bad builds again. i will try to do better next time, if there is an appropriate occasion.
Just keep trying and don´t mind people who talk shit. Shame that you lost, but better luck next time
Basically this. There will always be some turds and you should not mind them. GLHF
On May 25 2016 03:49 Liquid`Snute wrote: i tried a strategy that i thought in good faith would work, it was awful so i'm sorry, i LOST A MAP because of it. isn't that enough? the last thing i want when playing this is additional pressure like this or some sort of moral police. i won games in the past on maps like steppes of war and waystation close positions including online tournaments as well using drone pulls. yes i could have played more custom games on this map before going for this strategy and obviously scrapped it since it did not turn out to be a powerful build but please just let the players play in good faith trying to win, i already paid my penalty with a MINUS POINT mapscore. i don't want to have to compete while feeling anxious about higher ups or administrators calling disrespect in the MIDDLE of the series. sorry for my bad play and showing ONE terrible cheese in a bunch of attempted macro games.
seriously ruined my evening to even think that i need to consider this. maybe put up disclaimers next time or maybe invite higher lever players that you can maybe expect more from? sorry, just really infuriating to get messaged in the middle of a tournament, i'm playing so much worse now and can't get this type of anger out of my system very quickly. really, really sad day for me in starcraft honestly.
and now i lost, you will not have to see similar bad builds again. i will try to do better next time, if there is an appropriate occasion.
Dude don't worry about it, you played great in the first maps and everybody who follows you knows that you gave it your all on every map. Cheese is a part of the game and has to be tested, thanks for doing just that!
I'm really sorry that this even became a discussion. As if you had not earned the trust of the community a thousand times....
On May 25 2016 03:49 Liquid`Snute wrote: i tried a strategy that i thought in good faith would work, it was awful so i'm sorry, i LOST A MAP because of it. isn't that enough? the last thing i want when playing this is additional pressure like this or some sort of moral police. i won games in the past on maps like steppes of war and waystation close positions including online tournaments as well using drone pulls. yes i could have played more custom games on this map before going for this strategy and obviously scrapped it since it did not turn out to be a powerful build but please just let the players play in good faith trying to win, i already paid my penalty with a MINUS POINT mapscore. i don't want to have to compete while feeling anxious about higher ups or administrators calling disrespect in the MIDDLE of the series. sorry for my bad play and showing ONE terrible cheese in a bunch of attempted macro games.
seriously ruined my evening to even think that i need to consider this. maybe put up disclaimers next time or maybe invite higher lever players that you can maybe expect more from? sorry, just really infuriating to get messaged in the middle of a tournament, i'm playing so much worse now and can't get this type of anger out of my system very quickly. really, really sad day for me in starcraft honestly.
and now i lost, you will not have to see similar bad builds again. i will try to do better next time, if there is an appropriate occasion.
You're taking it a little too personally . I think most everyone knows the quality of your character, you shouldn't be worrying about that. If people are messaging you during the tournament about it that's clearly inappropriate.
I like you and wasn't trying to offend you, but my opinion still stands about actually testing the map properly in some form. It would suck really bad to be the guy who made the map and have people automatically discount your map and have people not try to play some form of a real game on it. I'm not saying you're an asshole or something.
If you actually thought drone rushing was like a legitimate strategy that was likely to win you the game, then my bad. But... I mean.. that doesn't seem likely. It seems more like a hail mary.
I wasn't even targetting you, really. I thought uthermals hellbats into seeing a couple roaches - instant gg was way worse.
On May 25 2016 03:49 Liquid`Snute wrote: i tried a strategy that i thought in good faith would work, it was awful so i'm sorry, i LOST A MAP because of it. isn't that enough? the last thing i want when playing this is additional pressure like this or some sort of moral police. i won games in the past on maps like steppes of war and waystation close positions including online tournaments as well using drone pulls. yes i could have played more custom games on this map before going for this strategy and obviously scrapped it since it did not turn out to be a powerful build but please just let the players play in good faith trying to win, i already paid my penalty with a MINUS POINT mapscore. i don't want to have to compete while feeling anxious about higher ups or administrators calling disrespect in the MIDDLE of the series. sorry for my bad play and showing ONE terrible cheese in a bunch of attempted macro games.
seriously ruined my evening to even think that i need to consider this. maybe put up disclaimers next time or maybe invite higher lever players that you can maybe expect more from? sorry, just really infuriating to get messaged in the middle of a tournament, i'm playing so much worse now and can't get this type of anger out of my system very quickly. really, really sad day for me in starcraft honestly.
and now i lost, you will not have to see similar bad builds again. i will try to do better next time, if there is an appropriate occasion.
People can be dicks and any pro player in SC2 experienced this one way or another. I got messages yesterday and forum posts that i'm abuser and won only because of the map abuse and would lose on normal maps.
Don't let idiots get to you, try to play for yourself, not for others and always remember that people that post stuff like this will never be even close as good as you are, all they can do is talk trash.
EDIT: not to mention people on forums/reddit always know better than progamers /s
On May 25 2016 03:49 Liquid`Snute wrote: i tried a strategy that i thought in good faith would work, it was awful so i'm sorry, i LOST A MAP because of it. isn't that enough? the last thing i want when playing this is additional pressure like this or some sort of moral police. i won games in the past on maps like steppes of war and waystation close positions including online tournaments as well using drone pulls. yes i could have played more custom games on this map before going for this strategy and obviously scrapped it since it did not turn out to be a powerful build but please just let the players play in good faith trying to win, i already paid my penalty with a MINUS POINT mapscore. i don't want to have to compete while feeling anxious about higher ups or administrators calling disrespect in the MIDDLE of the series. sorry for my bad play and showing ONE terrible cheese in a bunch of attempted macro games.
seriously ruined my evening to even think that i need to consider this. maybe put up disclaimers next time or maybe invite higher lever players that you can maybe expect more from? sorry, just really infuriating to get messaged in the middle of a tournament, i'm playing so much worse now and can't get this type of anger out of my system very quickly. really, really sad day for me in starcraft honestly.
and now i lost, you will not have to see similar bad builds again. i will try to do better next time, if there is an appropriate occasion.
People can be dicks and any pro player in SC2 experienced this one way or another. I got messages yesterday and forum posts that i'm abuser and won only because of the map abuse and would lose on normal maps.
Don't let idiots get to you, try to play for yourself, not for others and always remember that people that post stuff like this will never be even close as good as you are, all they can do is talk trash.
Being called a "map abuser" can probably be considered the highest form of praise when participating in a map test tournament.
i didn't get messaged by strangers i was indirectly notified through the casters that what happened was somewhat sketchy and then i made the mistake of opening this thread reading about that the map should be replayed or whatever, just went on full tilt from there. i will inform all casters i know to not to make comments on the flow of a series in the future and this should be taken note of - please let players do their thing and ask politely about their intentions or reasons for questionable play some time AFTER the conclusion of a series, some times players can play experimental builds and it's not necessarily a naniwa drone pull level of disrespect just because it looks silly ... sigh :'(
Well you're one of my favorite players and e-sports people in general. It's probably healthier to remain aloof from what is being posted by people who aren't directly involved in the tournaments. I don't like feeling like I offended you when that's not my intention, because I also want to be able to post my thoughts about the tournament when stuff like this happens. Remember that the random people in this thread have a certain level of distance from the actual events. They should be able to use the space to discuss the events without worrying that their opinions are being taken as a personal attack. I know that that's difficult, though (really I do know, I've been publicly scrutinized before, it's annoying).
yes it's never my intention to witch hunt anyone for speaking their mind especially when discussing games because that's part of what's good about watching esports, i probably should just message the TO's/casters directly about mid-series issues instead of ranting here so apologies for that... GL to everyone involved and thx for the opportunity & fresh maps
On May 25 2016 04:15 Liquid`Snute wrote: i didn't get messaged by strangers i was indirectly notified through the casters that what happened was somewhat sketchy
I didn't watch the game in question, but that's not okay. From what I gather there was a worker rush and it didn't work? That's all that happened, right?
On May 25 2016 03:26 Antares777 wrote: I wasn't expecting to see so many different glitches and problems on the maps. Caldeum Plateau has a blocked geyser and floating corpses, Frozen Zone had doodads without proper pathing and got those two units got stuck on it, etc.
Test yo maps people.
Agreed, this is really basic stuff that you should learn when you first start mapping. It's not the end of the world, as the maps got there on their overall merit and some bugs shouldn't prevent that, but it is puzzling to see people spend countless hours on aesthetics but then not be able to spend the very short amount of time it takes to bugproof everything. Checking minerals, geysers, unbuildable plates, pathing, etc. everything can literally be done in 20 or 30 min.
My map hasn't been played yet so inevitably after I make this post it will have some bug :-P
On May 25 2016 03:49 Liquid`Snute wrote: i tried a strategy that i thought in good faith would work, it was awful so i'm sorry, i LOST A MAP because of it. isn't that enough? the last thing i want when playing this is additional pressure like this or some sort of moral police. i won games in the past on maps like steppes of war and waystation close positions including online tournaments as well using drone pulls. yes i could have played more custom games on this map before going for this strategy and obviously scrapped it since it did not turn out to be a powerful build but please just let the players play in good faith trying to win, i already paid my penalty with a MINUS POINT mapscore. i don't want to have to compete while feeling anxious about higher ups or administrators calling disrespect in the MIDDLE of the series. sorry for my bad play and showing ONE terrible cheese in a bunch of attempted macro games.
seriously ruined my evening to even think that i need to consider this. maybe put up disclaimers next time or maybe invite higher lever players that you can maybe expect more from? sorry, just really infuriating to get messaged in the middle of a tournament, i'm playing so much worse now and can't get this type of anger out of my system very quickly. really, really sad day for me in starcraft honestly.
and now i lost, you will not have to see similar bad builds again. i will try to do better next time, if there is an appropriate occasion.
People can be dicks and any pro player in SC2 experienced this one way or another. I got messages yesterday and forum posts that i'm abuser and won only because of the map abuse and would lose on normal maps.
Don't let idiots get to you, try to play for yourself, not for others and always remember that people that post stuff like this will never be even close as good as you are, all they can do is talk trash.
Being called a "map abuser" can probably be considered the highest form of praise when participating in a map test tournament.
Not if people say "the only" reason he's winning is abusing maps. I get your point though.
On May 25 2016 03:26 Antares777 wrote: I wasn't expecting to see so many different glitches and problems on the maps. Caldeum Plateau has a blocked geyser and floating corpses, Frozen Zone had doodads without proper pathing and got those two units got stuck on it, etc.
Test yo maps people.
Agreed, this is really basic stuff that you should learn when you first start mapping. It's not the end of the world, as the maps got there on their overall merit and some bugs shouldn't prevent that, but it is puzzling to see people spend countless hours on aesthetics but then not be able to spend the very short amount of time it takes to bugproof everything. Checking minerals, geysers, unbuildable plates, pathing, etc. everything can literally be done in 20 or 30 min.
My map hasn't been played yet so inevitably after I make this post it will have some bug :-P
With the volume of maps created by some of these people eventually mistakes happen. Stuff like this helps get the flaws identified. Although it would be great if we had systems in place to ensure this doesn't happen in future. Food for thought.
I'm with you Snute. It's a build that has straight up won games in the past and the rush distance was so small I even posted in here that maybe the drone rush could be making a come back. I don't have any issue with what you did and think the strategy was perfectly reasonable to attempt in a test tournament.
[5/20/2016 4:32:13 PM] Barrin: as a mapmaker whos playing the game [5/20/2016 4:32:24 PM] Barrin: you might as well get really good at learning cheeses and shit [5/20/2016 4:32:28 PM] Barrin: early game matters a lot [5/20/2016 4:33:09 PM] Barrin: and is less ambiguous than late game features
One of my favorite Steppes of War games:
Granted, the T should have pulled all his workers together instead of most of them then the rest. But even if he did that, drones regenerate hitpoints passively while SCV's do not. True, SCV's can repair, but that costs minerals. Furthermore, it doesn't take much kiting (if any?) on the zerg's part to overcome the 5 hp difference.
Finally, given an even shorter rush distance on Dasan Station than Steppes of War and the successful example above, a drone rush was certainly not an invalid strategy on Snute's part.
In fact, Zerg can also make their first bunch of workers faster, and I'm not sure Snute took full advantage of this part (maybe he did wasn't watching closely), so I'm not even ready to say it's not plausible in LotV on such a short rush distance yet. Regardless, I do appreciate your test Snute!
And make no mistake, all of the games played on these maps are tests. That's partially the point of this tournament (unfortunately the mapmaking community must rely on such things atm, due to lack of skilled & willing players to test otherwise -- most mapmakers are sub-master). As far as Blizzard standard is concerned, all of these maps are still in beta.
On May 25 2016 04:15 Liquid`Snute wrote: i didn't get messaged by strangers i was indirectly notified through the casters that what happened was somewhat sketchy and then i made the mistake of opening this thread reading about that the map should be replayed or whatever, just went on full tilt from there. i will inform all casters i know to not to make comments on the flow of a series in the future and this should be taken note of - please let players do their thing and ask politely about their intentions or reasons for questionable play some time AFTER the conclusion of a series, some times players can play experimental builds and it's not necessarily a naniwa drone pull level of disrespect just because it looks silly ... sigh :'(
Snute I was watching stream during that game and casters were actually pretty reasonable about your strat, they even mentioned previous incident with worker rush from another progamer that was a big thing on reddit for like 5 minutes. But they mentioned that your attempt was nothing like that, you actually tried it as legit strat.
Remark from Rifkin about having "talk" with players was IMO unneccesary but not ill intended. He was probably frustrated that uThermal game earlier GGd out of game after seeing 1 roach and then came drone rush.
I think any in-game strategy used in a genuine attempt to win the game is always fine. Worker rush on a crazy short rush distance map seems worth an attempt at least.
@ plexa maybe next TLMC once the finalists are already determined, you guys could get a seasoned mapmaker or two to scan the maps for obvious bugs like these. Since the judging would have already happened it means you shouldn't have to worry about whether or not they submitted something.
Pretty pathetic to be honest, in my opinion some well rounded build order with drone pull could be a viable way to play on that map. Blaming someone for playing 1 map in a series like this is just sad, especially since if you play standard all games people are going to cry that you didn't try anything new.
hey just wanna clear things up and warning/headsup. so what tilted me hard yesterday was something very unique. it probably happened in good faith and was a misunderstanding/fuckup but i just want to make clear that it's not okay and basetrade is not at fault. + Show Spoiler +
if my information is correct, rifkin was apparently messaged by an important contact with privileges incl. communication to forward a message to the players after the dasan game and ask if we were taking it seriously - something along this nature, in the player chat. this indicates that someone higher-up involved with the tournament expressed concerns regarding our maps/series and intervened in the middle of it to notify players. this type of behavior can have a negative influence on some players and is unprecedented at least to me in online tournaments.
nobody with an authority/organizer/communication privilege to players or casters should interfere with the gameplay of players or suggest them to play or not play a certain way - directly OR indirectly. because you manipulate/fix the match or insult by doing so. uthermal-snute went all the way to game 9, we were taking the series seriously but yesterday an authority decided to use their privilege to make a move in the very middle of a series. uncomfortable for me to witness as a player and greatly reduced my performance.
so just wanted to clear that up. i don't want to have beef with this anonymous authority but one should really think twice before intervening through casters next time: You have to be able to tell the difference between a failed strategy and someone taking their hands off the keyboard before you take action. And on a general basis, being involved with a tournament should not grant you a strategy hotline to the players in the middle of a series. If anything all you end up doing by intervening most of the time like this is ruining the flow of nature and integrity of competition (accidental mild "matchfixing").
in 5+ years of online starcraft i have never had an unknown official working on the tournament questioning performance in the middle of a series through a caster. if authority gameplay intervention might be a thing on the rise i'll speak up against it whenever it happens because it's not okay no matter how good the intentions are. let the players play the way they want even if it means they show the worst series of all time. freedom to play to win in the way you like. if games should play a certain way, use special formats like minimum 4 base and 15 minute no rush, not the golden standard play to win.
On May 26 2016 05:14 Liquid`Snute wrote: hey just wanna clear things up and warning/headsup. so what tilted me hard yesterday was something very unique. it probably happened in good faith and was a misunderstanding/fuckup but i just want to make clear that it's not okay and basetrade is not at fault. + Show Spoiler +
if my information is correct, rifkin was apparently messaged by an important contact with privileges incl. communication to forward a message to the players after the dasan game and ask if we were taking it seriously - something along this nature, in the player chat. this indicates that someone higher-up involved with the tournament expressed concerns regarding our maps/series and intervened in the middle of it to notify players. this type of behavior can have a negative influence on some players and is unprecedented at least to me in online tournaments.
nobody with an authority/organizer/communication privilege to players or casters should interfere with the gameplay of players or suggest them to play or not play a certain way - directly OR indirectly. because you manipulate/fix the match or insult by doing so. uthermal-snute went all the way to game 9, we were taking the series seriously but yesterday an authority decided to use their privilege to make a move in the very middle of a series. uncomfortable for me to witness as a player and greatly reduced my performance.
so just wanted to clear that up. i don't want to have beef with this anonymous authority but one should really think twice before intervening through casters next time: You have to be able to tell the difference between a failed strategy and someone taking their hands off the keyboard before you take action. And on a general basis, being involved with a tournament should not grant you a strategy hotline to the players in the middle of a series. If anything all you end up doing by intervening most of the time like this is ruining the flow of nature and integrity of competition (accidental mild "matchfixing").
in 5+ years of online starcraft i have never had an unknown official working on the tournament questioning performance in the middle of a series through a caster. if authority gameplay intervention might be a thing on the rise i'll speak up against it whenever it happens because it's not okay no matter how good the intentions are. let the players play the way they want even if it means they show the worst series of all time. freedom to play to win in the way you like. if games should play a certain way, use special formats like minimum 4 base and 15 minute no rush, not the golden standard play to win.
It is reasonable to assume that the intervener acted in good faith and out of genuine concern, although it was not the best course of action, and the results were very unfortunate.
Still, not a good precedent. My sympathies to you; getting knocked out of a 4k$ tournament (at least partly) because of a situation mishandled by the organizers / sponsors / whomever is dreadful.
If whoever it was acted out of genuine concern, perhaps he could use that same genuine concern not to interfere. To me it smacks that whoever it was did not act out of genuine concern for the integrity of the tournament, but wanted another agenda instead. If for instance Naniwa decides to do the same build every game in a premier tournament final and Losira decides to do the same all in, it is overstepping the bounds of decency and respect to the players and integrity of the tournament to forward a message. It is in fact beyond the bounds of whatever authority anybody should have to demand players play or do not play and is extremely disrespectful.
If they are not asking for your input, you should NEVER tell a player how to play while he is in a series. The threat of every single plausible cheese MUST be there, otherwise the other player will take shortcuts that they would not otherwise take.
It is not enough to simply go through the motions of a macro game when testing a map, you either get there legitimately or you might as well have just placed some units with the editor to begin with.
if authority gameplay intervention might be a thing on the rise i'll speak up against it whenever it happens because it's not okay no matter how good the intentions are.
I think it would be a little less confusing if the textures were clearer / simpler. They look nice but their complexity makes an already complex map even harder to read.
If my steelseries headset didn't hit the bucket for me a week ago I'd totally try to get on BTTV to talk about maps. Unfortunately just using a fairly crumby headset for the time being. Games have been awesome so far (have only watched the two series on youtube so far due to working mon-thurs) but I play to watch it live the next few days.
On May 27 2016 04:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Aiur Plateau is such a great map.
yes I think it's my favorite so far
Pain in the ass to play :D
:D yeah it seems like a good proleague map but not very ladder friendly. As a spectator I'm happy to see games played on it but can also appreciate it must be really fucking annoying to play :D
On May 27 2016 10:05 BasetradeTV wrote: (There's only 1 player who didn't confirm their time limitations with me so this will be tomorrow's schedule providing nothing dramatic changes)
Small tweak to the schedule after trying to work some stuff out with Catz's tournament that half our Ro8 signed up for:
10:00 AM PDT - Beastyqt vs Lillekanin 🔴 LIVE (Wardii's Channel) 12:00 PM PDT (ish) - uThermal vs Scarlett 🔴 LIVE (BaseTradeTV) 12:00 PM PDT (ish) - Nerchio vs Harstem 🔴 LIVE (Wardii's channel) 2:00 PM PDT (ish) - Bunny vs Neeb ⚫REPLAYS (BaseTradeTV)
Edit: The (ish) is an unfortunate approximate for timing, as we don't know which players will be finished and good to go from the NA vs EU all stars event. If anyone takes longer than the proposed start time, they will be replaced with someone from the RO16
More vods are finally on YouTube yeeesss thank you whoever works on getting those for folks like myself who can't catch it all live. So glad to catch up on the Scarlett v Bly and Snute v uThermal games I missed on these weird maps.
Funny thing about this tournament is that I'm very interested in the mirror matchups as opposed to, say, wanting to scratch my eyes out during every TvT. Good stuff. And hopefully there's a lot more cheese since it's BO9 and 11/15 later.
Again, in the interest of working together with the NA vs EU all stars matches, we'll be changing the start time of the first semifinals to be Saturday, May 28 2:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Beastyqt vs uThermal
Sunday's SemiFinals #2 will return to it's normal time, Sunday, May 29 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Nerchio vs Neeb
On May 28 2016 08:36 BasetradeTV wrote: Again, in the interest of working together with the NA vs EU all stars matches, we'll be changing the start time of the first semifinals to be Saturday, May 28 2:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Beastyqt vs uThermal
Sunday's SemiFinals #2 will return to it's normal time, Sunday, May 29 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Nerchio vs Neeb
On a sidenote im really happy the players are starting to understand how to play on shiva and utilize the different lanes. The first games were a bit ... lackluster, now they're getting better. Hope a game goes > 10 minutes though!
Well played Nerchio! Should be a pretty awesome finals. uThermal looking real good in all his matchups and did already take down Snute & Bly so he's done a good chunk of TvZ on these maps.
Can't wait til tomorrow! Love me some TvZ action! =)
On May 30 2016 04:41 SidianTheBard wrote: Well played Nerchio! Should be a pretty awesome finals. uThermal looking real good in all his matchups and did already take down Snute & Bly so he's done a good chunk of TvZ on these maps.
Can't wait til tomorrow! Love me some TvZ action! =)
Finals is on Tuesday due to scheduling requirements!
Tuesday, May 31 4:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) - Nerchio vs uThermal 15 map finals
Tuesday, May 31 7:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) (maybe later, depending how long the finals goes Beastyqt vs Neeb Bo5 3rd/4th place match
Even though the rocks between the nat and third were never broken down on Shiva, it kinda felt like they still influenced the game. The rocks being there just make retreating from the third to defend at the top of the natural so much worse. And the thirds are so damn close on that map.
edit: Oh wow Nerchio is taking the gold on Caldeum. He seems like the only player who's been taking the gold bases on the supposedly "Gold" maps.
Also the fact that uThermal didn't even try to exploit the double-edged collapsible rocks that segment off a base on three consecutive maps with them kinda irritates me.
On June 01 2016 02:29 opisska wrote: This D-somethin Station (sorry, BTTV quaily is terrible now) is pretty dumb. That's some new-age Steppes of war going on here
Yeah I think this map was supposed to be a joke(hopefully?)
On June 01 2016 02:29 opisska wrote: This D-somethin Station (sorry, BTTV quaily is terrible now) is pretty dumb. That's some new-age Steppes of war going on here
Yeah I think this map was supposed to be a joke(hopefully?)
It got to the finals of the TLMC and there was some sizeable competition, right? So there has to be some line of arguments why it is good and I would really love to hear that.
On June 01 2016 02:31 opisska wrote: Also, since when is ZG blonde?
before DH Austin they took donations tied to hair color for donators to pick what color she should dye her hair. She dyed it for Dreamhack I think and has kept it so far
On June 01 2016 02:31 opisska wrote: Also, since when is ZG blonde?
before DH Austin they took donations tied to hair color for donators to pick what color she should dye her hair. She dyed it for Dreamhack I think and has kept it so far
I think that naturally now should be Rifkin's turn
On June 01 2016 02:29 opisska wrote: This D-somethin Station (sorry, BTTV quaily is terrible now) is pretty dumb. That's some new-age Steppes of war going on here
Yeah I think this map was supposed to be a joke(hopefully?)
Nah. All of Enekh's maps are like this. They're all different and brilliant in a weird way, but usually kinda broken. His other submissions to this contest were a 200x200 32 base map, a map with three openings to the main, and a relatively normal map with a gold base in the main which is blocking a ramp.
uThermal's late game TvZ isn't very good. He seems allergic to taking fourth bases, or building units that can beat ultras, and his pre-chitinous timings are dubious. Ultras are very good in general, but he's playing in a way that makes them unbeatable.
On June 01 2016 03:44 opisska wrote: I don't really see why the AI issues with the blockers is such a problem. It happens to both players, so just get good and deal with it
Having games hinge on whose AI bugs out doesn't seem that great. And just because the AI issues are symmetric doesn't mean they are equal for the different races.
On June 01 2016 03:44 opisska wrote: I don't really see why the AI issues with the blockers is such a problem. It happens to both players, so just get good and deal with it
Having games hinge on whose AI bugs out doesn't seem that great. And just because the AI issues are symmetric doesn't mean they are equal for the different races.
Have you ever watched or played BW? This whole blocker deal would count as a very minor inconvenience there ...
If a pro game is decided by known AI issues, it's 100% the player's fault they just need to practice for it. It's not that different from all the other things.
On June 01 2016 03:44 opisska wrote: I don't really see why the AI issues with the blockers is such a problem. It happens to both players, so just get good and deal with it
Having games hinge on whose AI bugs out doesn't seem that great. And just because the AI issues are symmetric doesn't mean they are equal for the different races.
Have you ever watched or played BW? This whole blocker deal would count as a very minor inconvenience there ...
If a pro game is decided by known AI issues, it's 100% the player's fault they just need to practice for it. It's not that different from all the other things.
SCII ain't BW. If a bug disabled unit control groups on a map, it wouldn't be okay just because the Dune RTS didn't have control groups. Sure pros can and will practice for AI issues, but they shouldn't need to. Also while map balance should solely be based on the highest level, map playability needs to consider the average player.
Incredible. uThermal built a fourth. He could have built it at the seven minute mark on site, and Nerchio probably wouldn't have denied it out of shear surprise.
I am not really getting what happened to uThermal. I know him as being pretty good, but here he keeps heatbutting into the same problem over and over again with the same approach that just doesn't seem to work. None of his wins were from a solid game and even sometimes using the bullshit of the map didn't work. I am not surprised by Nerchio winning, but I wouldn't expect uThermal to look that bad losing.
As the mapmaker I was definitely confused when he tried 3 rax reaper on that map! It's probably the worst possible map ever to do it on (although reapers can be good in other ways on the map).
Still, nice to have cheeses tested to make sure there aren't any exploits.
On June 01 2016 04:36 Fatam wrote: As the mapmaker I was definitely confused when he tried 3 rax reaper on that map! It's probably the worst possible map ever to do it on (although reapers can be good in other ways on the map).
Still, nice to have cheeses tested to make sure there aren't any exploits.
Yeah. Definitely agree. Arkanoid is the only map I can think of where reapers would be worse.
On June 01 2016 04:36 Fatam wrote: As the mapmaker I was definitely confused when he tried 3 rax reaper on that map! It's probably the worst possible map ever to do it on (although reapers can be good in other ways on the map).
Still, nice to have cheeses tested to make sure there aren't any exploits.
Interestingly. Nerchio wasn't surprised (as he himself noted here). It was probably kinda meta-metagame, where uThermal tried to do it on the least expected map, but was called on the bluff anyway.
On June 01 2016 04:36 Fatam wrote: As the mapmaker I was definitely confused when he tried 3 rax reaper on that map! It's probably the worst possible map ever to do it on (although reapers can be good in other ways on the map).
Still, nice to have cheeses tested to make sure there aren't any exploits.
Interestingly. Nerchio wasn't surprised (as he himself noted here). It was probably kinda meta-metagame, where uThermal tried to do it on the least expected map, but was called on the bluff anyway.
uThermal probably just went "Fuck it, reapers." despite the map being awful for it, and Nerchio just knows him well enough to call it.
edit: Also none of the maps left are particularly good reaper maps imo, though Korhal Killzone and Namaste are better than Flame Juggler.
On June 01 2016 04:48 opisska wrote: I'd veto this map on ladder just because of the bad creep blending. Central protocol all over again.
I'd veto that map because the terrain near the third and gold is incredibly abusive, and because the bottom of the map is incredibly irrelevant and weirdly spaced out.
The creep blending thing is really easy to fix if the mapmaker wants to.
On June 01 2016 04:48 opisska wrote: I'd veto this map on ladder just because of the bad creep blending. Central protocol all over again.
I'd veto that map because the terrain near the third and gold is incredibly abusive, and because the bottom of the map is incredibly irrelevant and weirdly spaced out.
The creep blending thing is really easy to fix if the mapmaker wants to.
But it never happened on Central protocol. I couldn't even see where my workers are on that map, it was really terrible.
On June 01 2016 04:48 opisska wrote: I'd veto this map on ladder just because of the bad creep blending. Central protocol all over again.
I'd veto that map because the terrain near the third and gold is incredibly abusive, and because the bottom of the map is incredibly irrelevant and weirdly spaced out.
The creep blending thing is really easy to fix if the mapmaker wants to.
But it never happened on Central protocol. I couldn't even see where my workers are on that map, it was really terrible.
Well you can edit your variables.txt to fix it for you only. Or in this case angrily tweet @SC2_avex so that he fixes it on Namaste.
On June 01 2016 04:48 opisska wrote: I'd veto this map on ladder just because of the bad creep blending. Central protocol all over again.
I'd veto that map because the terrain near the third and gold is incredibly abusive, and because the bottom of the map is incredibly irrelevant and weirdly spaced out.
The creep blending thing is really easy to fix if the mapmaker wants to.
But it never happened on Central protocol. I couldn't even see where my workers are on that map, it was really terrible.
Well you can edit your variables.txt to fix it for you only. Or in this case angrily tweet @SC2_avex so that he fixes it on Namaste.
This is getting a little bit offtopic, but can you tell me what exactly to edit in varibales to fix this particular issue? It would make my life brighter
On June 01 2016 04:48 opisska wrote: I'd veto this map on ladder just because of the bad creep blending. Central protocol all over again.
I'd veto that map because the terrain near the third and gold is incredibly abusive, and because the bottom of the map is incredibly irrelevant and weirdly spaced out.
The creep blending thing is really easy to fix if the mapmaker wants to.
But it never happened on Central protocol. I couldn't even see where my workers are on that map, it was really terrible.
Well you can edit your variables.txt to fix it for you only. Or in this case angrily tweet @SC2_avex so that he fixes it on Namaste.
This is getting a little bit offtopic, but can you tell me what exactly to edit in varibales to fix this particular issue? It would make my life brighter
I think you can set creepnormalmap to 1 (or zero if you want no animations whatsoever)
On June 01 2016 05:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I've been really impressed by beastyqt's builds this tournament. They've always been so suitable for the map.
On June 01 2016 05:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote: The series today were only so and so. Watching uThermal lose the exact same way map after map was a bit dull. It did showcase the maps well though.
WCS![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ytI8j6L.png)
Scarlett vs 
uThermal
Theo vs 
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Teoita/Annihilation.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Teoita/Apotheosis.jpg)
140x148![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/galacticprocess.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/frozenzone.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/korhalkillzone.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/namaste.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/paladinoterminal.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/shiva.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/aiurplateau.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Teoita/Dasan.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/erisRE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Teoita/NewGett.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/caldeumplateau.jpg)
[big]144x144![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/flamejuggler.jpg)
[big]128x128![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Jer99/Articles/2016/TLMC7/gojiragreenhouse.jpg)
[big]144x146
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9BkU7mp.png)
BaseTradeTV Map Test Tournament
