On April 03 2015 00:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: Flash's style is just not really working for terran i feel. He doesn't have impressive micro and multitasking, two things you simply need with sc2 terran imo. (at least as long as bio >>> everything else)
He actually has really good micro, he rarely focuses on it though. His multitasking isn't superb but also not bad.
Honestly, I wanna see him play LotV so much right now <.<
This is funny, too. Watching Flash play his games over the years is odd-He actually has very good micro, but simply does not focus on it unless he has to. It's lost him more than a few games before.
WHat are examples of this "good micro" in sc2? I really don't wanna hate on flash, but i think i have never seen impressive micro from flash in this game
the best micro we have Maru in all three matchups. More specifically we have series like Dream vs Life for TvZ. Maru vs well almost anyone in TvP. Maru vs anyone in TvT also.
Yes i agree that Maru has great micro, i wanted examples of flash though (cause i think he simply doesn't have great micro) I added (in sc2) cause i didn't want examples of Flash in BW which would "prove" that he has great micro
On April 03 2015 00:20 Elentos wrote: [quote] Everyone is. Literally everyone is taking every chance they get to hate on the guy.
Funny how none of them play Terran or can appreciate his Builds/Game Knowledge.
With that said I think he should incorporate more Hellion/Banshee ala Cure. He already has showed some taste for Cure's Builds with his 5 rax cc first game aggression against Trap in Katowice.
His style is okay, what he should do is not throw away obvious leads. He came dangerously close to that in game 2 and did it in games 3 and 4.
Certainly the case, Granted it was cross spawn Deadwing against Zerg.
The current meta is heavily favored for Zerg against Terran in macro games (Deadwing, Vaani, Overgrowth, Expedition lost, etc). It's no surprising that the best Terrans right now are aggressive players like Maru/Innovation/Cure.
The thing is, it seems like once Flash reaches a certain point in a macro game, he's in his comfort zone and really difficult to beat, like in g2 against Leenock or in SPL against ByuL. He has to work on getting there more safely and add in some more pressure plays. He plays a bit too passive until he's confident to move out I feel. And then when he went for the hellbats he did nothing with them even though they could have won them the game had he killed the hatch.
You have to think about the fact that the times he got to the late game, no one abused him for his greedy openings either. He isn't going to look that strong if he plays normal.
Not really, flash's greedy style of play reflects his philosophical belief in the strength of timing attacks and his confidence in defending early aggression. In the TvZ matchup in HOTS where Zerg is far more cost efficient in the late game, gains map control with mutalisks, holds in the death nail with 3/3/ and ultralisks, Macro bio is VERY hard to play as a Terran. Banelings are far and away the most cost-efficient unit in the game and are much easier to use than Widow Mines, particularly in macro games.
Really a Terran should be more confident in the early game. Flash's style reflects his belief in the right way to play the game and the unbreakable confidence he has in executing his builds.
That style is fine. I mean that's exactly how MarineKing played for years before he got exposed. But at the end of the day he's taking more risks to play at a level that Innovation can get to when Innovation is playing safe. There is a reason Flash has been losing to "worse" players while Innovation has only lost to players of his caliber in ZvT.
Not really, MarineKing's builds were often reckless; Flash takes precaution in his super greedy style, where MarineKing/Bomber would not. Also Marineking's style is mostly based around mid-game heavy marine aggression combined with elite level mechanics.
Innovation is really a mechanical monster in the truest form. His style is so solid because of his execution, in longer macro games his solidity can fade to smarter players. Innovation can't stomach macro games in the way flash can, let alone not choke under the pressure
Here is one of my favorite games of HOTS to show this: (a bit old)
Flash lost to Hydra, Shine and Leenock going CC first. I dunno about his builds being less reckless than MarineKing's. And I do respect Flash's TvT. It's the only matchup where I actually see him thinking and making strategic decision whereas in TvZ and TvP he attacks in like a bulldog and more often than not dies. And even if he gets to the late game, if he can't beat players like Life or soO (even when he has killed 29 drones of soO) that's not a winning vision. That's just being stubborn.
And I don't think you can quantify something like Flash's clutch when he's only played in 2 finals, one he lost with hellbat drops and WMs to Life. Especially against someone so known for anti-clutch like Innovation. (I think almost every player has shown more clutch than Inno). The other he won against Zest post WM-buff before Protoss had learned to adapt (though I think even now Flash's TvP is better than Zest's whose PvT has always been his worst).
There were no Hellbat drops when Flash played against Life at the MLG, they had not been discovered yet… If anything Life had the strategic advantage with 3b bane busts against the new 4M builds
On April 03 2015 00:22 Alucen-Will- wrote: [quote]
Funny how none of them play Terran or can appreciate his Builds/Game Knowledge.
With that said I think he should incorporate more Hellion/Banshee ala Cure. He already has showed some taste for Cure's Builds with his 5 rax cc first game aggression against Trap in Katowice.
His style is okay, what he should do is not throw away obvious leads. He came dangerously close to that in game 2 and did it in games 3 and 4.
Certainly the case, Granted it was cross spawn Deadwing against Zerg.
The current meta is heavily favored for Zerg against Terran in macro games (Deadwing, Vaani, Overgrowth, Expedition lost, etc). It's no surprising that the best Terrans right now are aggressive players like Maru/Innovation/Cure.
The thing is, it seems like once Flash reaches a certain point in a macro game, he's in his comfort zone and really difficult to beat, like in g2 against Leenock or in SPL against ByuL. He has to work on getting there more safely and add in some more pressure plays. He plays a bit too passive until he's confident to move out I feel. And then when he went for the hellbats he did nothing with them even though they could have won them the game had he killed the hatch.
You have to think about the fact that the times he got to the late game, no one abused him for his greedy openings either. He isn't going to look that strong if he plays normal.
Not really, flash's greedy style of play reflects his philosophical belief in the strength of timing attacks and his confidence in defending early aggression. In the TvZ matchup in HOTS where Zerg is far more cost efficient in the late game, gains map control with mutalisks, holds in the death nail with 3/3/ and ultralisks, Macro bio is VERY hard to play as a Terran. Banelings are far and away the most cost-efficient unit in the game and are much easier to use than Widow Mines, particularly in macro games.
Really a Terran should be more confident in the early game. Flash's style reflects his belief in the right way to play the game and the unbreakable confidence he has in executing his builds.
That style is fine. I mean that's exactly how MarineKing played for years before he got exposed. But at the end of the day he's taking more risks to play at a level that Innovation can get to when Innovation is playing safe. There is a reason Flash has been losing to "worse" players while Innovation has only lost to players of his caliber in ZvT.
Not really, MarineKing's builds were often reckless; Flash takes precaution in his super greedy style, where MarineKing/Bomber would not. Also Marineking's style is mostly based around mid-game heavy marine aggression combined with elite level mechanics.
Innovation is really a mechanical monster in the truest form. His style is so solid because of his execution, in longer macro games his solidity can fade to smarter players. Innovation can't stomach macro games in the way flash can, let alone not choke under the pressure
Here is one of my favorite games of HOTS to show this: (a bit old)
Flash lost to Hydra, Shine and Leenock going CC first. I dunno about his builds being less reckless than MarineKing's. And I do respect Flash's TvT. It's the only matchup where I actually see him thinking and making strategic decision whereas in TvZ and TvP he attacks in like a bulldog and more often than not dies. And even if he gets to the late game, if he can't beat players like Life or soO (even when he has killed 29 drones of soO) that's not a winning vision. That's just being stubborn.
And I don't think you can quantify something like Flash's clutch when he's only played in 2 finals, one he lost with hellbat drops and WMs to Life. Especially against someone so known for anti-clutch like Innovation. (I think almost every player has shown more clutch than Inno). The other he won against Zest post WM-buff before Protoss had learned to adapt (though I think even now Flash's TvP is better than Zest's whose PvT has always been his worst).
There were no Hellbat drops when Flash played against Life at the MLG, they had not been discovered yet… If anything Life had the strategic advantage with 3b bane busts against the new 4M builds
On April 03 2015 00:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: Flash's style is just not really working for terran i feel. He doesn't have impressive micro and multitasking, two things you simply need with sc2 terran imo. (at least as long as bio >>> everything else)
He actually has really good micro, he rarely focuses on it though. His multitasking isn't superb but also not bad.
Honestly, I wanna see him play LotV so much right now <.<
This is funny, too. Watching Flash play his games over the years is odd-He actually has very good micro, but simply does not focus on it unless he has to. It's lost him more than a few games before.
WHat are examples of this "good micro" in sc2? I really don't wanna hate on flash, but i think i have never seen impressive micro from flash in this game
My statement wasn't intended to conjure memories of Maru or MKP splitting, but a statement of fact about skill that he has when he needs to display them. I have to go now, so I will look up some games where he shows good micro.
If you watch fpvod's of flash, he mostly focuses on macro even in engagements, often letting his units amove into his opponent. This has lost him many a TvP before with the scv pull.
As a comparison, see Flash's SCV pull against Dear. In that one he actually focused on the micro and therefore barely took any storm damage on his army, and later went up Dear's ramp, flanking Dear's army from there aswell as picking off 2 HTs.
A very cutesy and minor example is when Flash played sOs in SPL a few weeks ago, when sOs sent his first zealot over to Flash who took out the zealot's shield and forced a retreat with just 2 marines, without taking a hit on either of them.
Aside from his decision making/game sense this always seemed like one of the biggest problems with his play in SC2, he focuses on macro SO much. It definitely shows, his macro is great, but it's so obvious that it hurts his micro far more than slightly better macro helps him.
On April 03 2015 00:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: Flash's style is just not really working for terran i feel. He doesn't have impressive micro and multitasking, two things you simply need with sc2 terran imo. (at least as long as bio >>> everything else)
He actually has really good micro, he rarely focuses on it though. His multitasking isn't superb but also not bad.
Honestly, I wanna see him play LotV so much right now <.<
This is funny, too. Watching Flash play his games over the years is odd-He actually has very good micro, but simply does not focus on it unless he has to. It's lost him more than a few games before.
WHat are examples of this "good micro" in sc2? I really don't wanna hate on flash, but i think i have never seen impressive micro from flash in this game
My statement wasn't intended to conjure memories of Maru or MKP splitting, but a statement of fact about skill that he has when he needs to display them. I have to go now, so I will look up some games where he shows good micro.
If you watch fpvod's of flash, he mostly focuses on macro even in engagements, often letting his units amove into his opponent. This has lost him many a TvP before with the scv pull.
As a comparison, see Flash's SCV pull against Dear. In that one he actually focused on the micro and therefore barely took any storm damage on his army, and later went up Dear's ramp, flanking Dear's army from there aswell as picking off 2 HTs.
A very cutesy and minor example is when Flash played sOs in SPL a few weeks ago, when sOs sent his first zealot over to Flash who took out the zealot's shield and forced a retreat with just 2 marines, without taking a hit on either of them.
Aside from his decision making/game sense this always seemed like one of the biggest problems with his play in SC2, he focuses on macro SO much. It definitely shows, his macro is great, but it's so obvious that it hurts his micro far more than slightly better macro helps him.
I think it's a (cruel?) reality Flash needs to accept - or rather, I'm sure he knows and has accepted but doesn't always show - Terran reinforcement is the slowest in the game and the most vulnerable to being picked off. Meaning that it's the most important thing to be cost efficient, to keep your units alive. Sure, PartinG had this whole lecture in the GSL finals about how it's important not to throw units away like Life does in his opinion, but for Terran it's even more important than for Protoss or Zerg.
And in a game where bio is extremely vulnerable to AoE units like banelings and colossi, he just has to accept that he needs to micro his units quite a lot to be effective. Because no matter how good his macro is, even if he was the best macro player in the world, if you lose your entire army and even just a few enemy units get on top of your production, that's basically it for the Terran. That's why I think he has to pay more attention to his units, unlike what he did today, where he among other things: stimmed half his army to red health without medivacs being out while chasing burrowed roaches, causing a bunch of units to die; lost about 10 hellions on Leenock's ramp for no reason; chased roaches with hellbats instead of killing Leenock's 3rd with them.
On April 03 2015 01:55 esdf wrote: gj Flash, losing 3-1 to worst possible opponent you could've gotten. Time to do army service.
You mean best possible opponent? Leenock is one of the original tricky Zergs, there's literally nothing worse for Flash given his style lol
Leenock gets no respect :[
I respect Leenock. Mostly for his ZvP which is kinda ridiculous, but just in general. And I feel he was definitely one of the strongest opponents Flash could have gotten, since Leenock just played hyper-aggressive while Flash played extremely greedy. Ignoring the fact that Flash basically threw games 3 and 4 through some really bad mistakes, Leenock showed up pretty much on point, solid game plan, good decision making. He definitely played this series to his strengths, no question, and he seems to be in pretty decent form again after not being seen since losing to MarineKing.
On April 03 2015 00:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: Flash's style is just not really working for terran i feel. He doesn't have impressive micro and multitasking, two things you simply need with sc2 terran imo. (at least as long as bio >>> everything else)
He actually has really good micro, he rarely focuses on it though. His multitasking isn't superb but also not bad.
Honestly, I wanna see him play LotV so much right now <.<
This is funny, too. Watching Flash play his games over the years is odd-He actually has very good micro, but simply does not focus on it unless he has to. It's lost him more than a few games before.
WHat are examples of this "good micro" in sc2? I really don't wanna hate on flash, but i think i have never seen impressive micro from flash in this game
My statement wasn't intended to conjure memories of Maru or MKP splitting, but a statement of fact about skill that he has when he needs to display them. I have to go now, so I will look up some games where he shows good micro.
If you watch fpvod's of flash, he mostly focuses on macro even in engagements, often letting his units amove into his opponent. This has lost him many a TvP before with the scv pull.
As a comparison, see Flash's SCV pull against Dear. In that one he actually focused on the micro and therefore barely took any storm damage on his army, and later went up Dear's ramp, flanking Dear's army from there aswell as picking off 2 HTs.
A very cutesy and minor example is when Flash played sOs in SPL a few weeks ago, when sOs sent his first zealot over to Flash who took out the zealot's shield and forced a retreat with just 2 marines, without taking a hit on either of them.
Funnily enough, this is the exact moment I was thinking of lol.
On April 03 2015 00:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: Flash's style is just not really working for terran i feel. He doesn't have impressive micro and multitasking, two things you simply need with sc2 terran imo. (at least as long as bio >>> everything else)
He actually has really good micro, he rarely focuses on it though. His multitasking isn't superb but also not bad.
Honestly, I wanna see him play LotV so much right now <.<
This is funny, too. Watching Flash play his games over the years is odd-He actually has very good micro, but simply does not focus on it unless he has to. It's lost him more than a few games before.
WHat are examples of this "good micro" in sc2? I really don't wanna hate on flash, but i think i have never seen impressive micro from flash in this game
My statement wasn't intended to conjure memories of Maru or MKP splitting, but a statement of fact about skill that he has when he needs to display them. I have to go now, so I will look up some games where he shows good micro.
If you watch fpvod's of flash, he mostly focuses on macro even in engagements, often letting his units amove into his opponent. This has lost him many a TvP before with the scv pull.
As a comparison, see Flash's SCV pull against Dear. In that one he actually focused on the micro and therefore barely took any storm damage on his army, and later went up Dear's ramp, flanking Dear's army from there aswell as picking off 2 HTs.
A very cutesy and minor example is when Flash played sOs in SPL a few weeks ago, when sOs sent his first zealot over to Flash who took out the zealot's shield and forced a retreat with just 2 marines, without taking a hit on either of them.
Aside from his decision making/game sense this always seemed like one of the biggest problems with his play in SC2, he focuses on macro SO much. It definitely shows, his macro is great, but it's so obvious that it hurts his micro far more than slightly better macro helps him.
I think it's a (cruel?) reality Flash needs to accept - or rather, I'm sure he knows and has accepted but doesn't always show - Terran reinforcement is the slowest in the game and the most vulnerable to being picked off. Meaning that it's the most important thing to be cost efficient, to keep your units alive. Sure, PartinG had this whole lecture in the GSL finals about how it's important not to throw units away like Life does in his opinion, but for Terran it's even more important than for Protoss or Zerg.
And in a game where bio is extremely vulnerable to AoE units like banelings and colossi, he just has to accept that he needs to micro his units quite a lot to be effective. Because no matter how good his macro is, even if he was the best macro player in the world, if you lose your entire army and even just a few enemy units get on top of your production, that's basically it for the Terran. That's why I think he has to pay more attention to his units, unlike what he did today, where he among other things: stimmed half his army to red health without medivacs being out while chasing burrowed roaches, causing a bunch of units to die; lost about 10 hellions on Leenock's ramp for no reason; chased roaches with hellbats instead of killing Leenock's 3rd with them.
On April 03 2015 01:55 esdf wrote: gj Flash, losing 3-1 to worst possible opponent you could've gotten. Time to do army service.
You mean best possible opponent? Leenock is one of the original tricky Zergs, there's literally nothing worse for Flash given his style lol
Leenock gets no respect :[
I respect Leenock. Mostly for his ZvP which is kinda ridiculous, but just in general. And I feel he was definitely one of the strongest opponents Flash could have gotten, since Leenock just played hyper-aggressive while Flash played extremely greedy. Ignoring the fact that Flash basically threw games 3 and 4 through some really bad mistakes, Leenock showed up pretty much on point, solid game plan, good decision making. He definitely played this series to his strengths, no question, and he seems to be in pretty decent form again after not being seen since losing to MarineKing.
The thing that really got me about the SPOTV casters was in game 1 where they starting talking about how he should stream on Afreeca and go back to broodwar....That was so ignorant it made me mute the audio (something I NEVER do, particularly with casters like Moonglade+Wolf)
Not only is it ignorant, but there is almost a desire to dislike him, which I find unprofessional
On April 03 2015 03:07 Alucen-Will- wrote: The thing that really got me about the SPOTV casters was in game 1 where they starting talking about how he should stream on Afreeca and go back to broodwar....That was so ignorant it made me mute the audio (something I NEVER do, particularly with casters like Moonglade+Wolf)
Not only is it ignorant, but there is almost a desire to dislike him.
I dunno about ignorant but disrespectful and completely unnecessary. Seriously what can make you say something like that if you are doing a professional job?
On April 03 2015 03:07 Alucen-Will- wrote: The thing that really got me about the SPOTV casters was in game 1 where they starting talking about how he should stream on Afreeca and go back to broodwar....That was so ignorant it made me mute the audio (something I NEVER do, particularly with casters like Moonglade+Wolf)
Not only is it ignorant, but there is almost a desire to dislike him, which I find unprofessional
That really annoyed me too, they seem to take a bit too much liking to talking smack about him. Then again, Team Salmon sometimes has weird moments. E.g. casting SPL, they commonly just forget things that happened like 2 weeks before. For example when Flash played Dear, they felt the need to point out that they feel Dear's form isn't consistent, citing his ace match against Trap as an example. Not only was that the only game Dear lost in round 2 until he played Flash, he completely shut down and crushed Maru on the same day he lost to Trap. So really, they have their moments, but I still like them all.
On April 03 2015 03:07 Alucen-Will- wrote: The thing that really got me about the SPOTV casters was in game 1 where they starting talking about how he should stream on Afreeca and go back to broodwar....That was so ignorant it made me mute the audio (something I NEVER do, particularly with casters like Moonglade+Wolf)
Not only is it ignorant, but there is almost a desire to dislike him, which I find unprofessional
That really annoyed me too, they seem to take a bit too much liking to talking smack about him. Then again, Team Salmon sometimes has weird moments. E.g. casting SPL, they commonly just forget things that happened like 2 weeks before. For example when Flash played Dear, they felt the need to point out that they feel Dear's form isn't consistent, citing his ace match against Trap as an example. Not only was that the only game Dear lost in round 2 until he played Flash, he completely shut down and crushed Maru on the same day he lost to Trap. So really, they have their moments, but I still like them all.
I feel exactly the same too, and watch essentially every professional match played these days.
With all my criticism ITT, I still think they are good guys and good casters. Albeit need to spend more time studying and perhaps think a bit more at times.
But this is true of almost all humans in the world, so Its not a huge deal. No one is perfect, I am no different, and neither are they.
On April 03 2015 03:07 Alucen-Will- wrote: The thing that really got me about the SPOTV casters was in game 1 where they starting talking about how he should stream on Afreeca and go back to broodwar....That was so ignorant it made me mute the audio (something I NEVER do, particularly with casters like Moonglade+Wolf)
Not only is it ignorant, but there is almost a desire to dislike him, which I find unprofessional
That really annoyed me too, they seem to take a bit too much liking to talking smack about him. Then again, Team Salmon sometimes has weird moments. E.g. casting SPL, they commonly just forget things that happened like 2 weeks before. For example when Flash played Dear, they felt the need to point out that they feel Dear's form isn't consistent, citing his ace match against Trap as an example. Not only was that the only game Dear lost in round 2 until he played Flash, he completely shut down and crushed Maru on the same day he lost to Trap. So really, they have their moments, but I still like them all.
I feel exactly the same too, and watch essentially every professional match played these days.
With all my criticism ITT, I still think they are good guys and good casters. Albeit need to spend more time studying and perhaps think a bit more at times.
But this is true of almost all humans in the world, so Its not a huge deal. No one is perfect, I am no different, and neither are they.
This is getting a bit weird man. Are we the same person in a different part of the world or something? I don't think it's that common for people on the internet to agree with each other as much as we seem to. <.<
On April 03 2015 03:07 Alucen-Will- wrote: The thing that really got me about the SPOTV casters was in game 1 where they starting talking about how he should stream on Afreeca and go back to broodwar....That was so ignorant it made me mute the audio (something I NEVER do, particularly with casters like Moonglade+Wolf)
Not only is it ignorant, but there is almost a desire to dislike him, which I find unprofessional
That really annoyed me too, they seem to take a bit too much liking to talking smack about him. Then again, Team Salmon sometimes has weird moments. E.g. casting SPL, they commonly just forget things that happened like 2 weeks before. For example when Flash played Dear, they felt the need to point out that they feel Dear's form isn't consistent, citing his ace match against Trap as an example. Not only was that the only game Dear lost in round 2 until he played Flash, he completely shut down and crushed Maru on the same day he lost to Trap. So really, they have their moments, but I still like them all.
I feel exactly the same too, and watch essentially every professional match played these days.
With all my criticism ITT, I still think they are good guys and good casters. Albeit need to spend more time studying and perhaps think a bit more at times.
But this is true of almost all humans in the world, so Its not a huge deal. No one is perfect, I am no different, and neither are they.
This is getting a bit weird man. Are we the same person in a different part of the world or something? <.<
On April 03 2015 03:07 Alucen-Will- wrote: The thing that really got me about the SPOTV casters was in game 1 where they starting talking about how he should stream on Afreeca and go back to broodwar....That was so ignorant it made me mute the audio (something I NEVER do, particularly with casters like Moonglade+Wolf)
Not only is it ignorant, but there is almost a desire to dislike him, which I find unprofessional
That really annoyed me too, they seem to take a bit too much liking to talking smack about him. Then again, Team Salmon sometimes has weird moments. E.g. casting SPL, they commonly just forget things that happened like 2 weeks before. For example when Flash played Dear, they felt the need to point out that they feel Dear's form isn't consistent, citing his ace match against Trap as an example. Not only was that the only game Dear lost in round 2 until he played Flash, he completely shut down and crushed Maru on the same day he lost to Trap. So really, they have their moments, but I still like them all.
I feel exactly the same too, and watch essentially every professional match played these days.
With all my criticism ITT, I still think they are good guys and good casters. Albeit need to spend more time studying and perhaps think a bit more at times.
But this is true of almost all humans in the world, so Its not a huge deal. No one is perfect, I am no different, and neither are they.
This is getting a bit weird man. Are we the same person in a different part of the world or something? <.<
LOL. It's a bit scary,
who are your favorite players?
Top 3 of each race (no particular order) Terran: Flash (should be obvious, no?), Cure, Polt Protoss: Zest, Trap, PartinG Zerg: Rogue, Life, soO
EPT
