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On February 17 2015 03:29 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 01:20 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:06 Xoronius wrote:On February 16 2015 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 16 2015 19:54 Xoronius wrote:
[quote]
"The entire group" as in "not Polt" for TLO and "not Jim" for Kelazhur. I might have said it before, but this wouldn't have happened in RR. Aeromi should tweet about RR too :D Unfortunately to my knowledge Aeromi doesn't share the correct opinion on this issue. Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. I'm pretty sure that the GSL guys still have PTSD from the Naniwa vs Nestea everytime they hear "Round Robin", so yeah good luck with killing the GSL format d: Naniwa vs Nestea only happens when a player isn't professional, you can deal with that as it happens (just ban him) RR is just superior and i don't even think this is an opinion at all, i would look at it as a fact Wowowow easy there. While I agree with your first statement, the second one needs further explanation. If it is a fact and not an opinion, can you point me to some factual/scientific/scientific-ish evidence?
Ok i maybe should have said it is fairer (which i consider superior in this instance)
You play vs every opponent of your group instead of a random draw, pretty straight forward imo.
On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol
Well i understand why, but you don't have to participate if you don't like it :D
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this is so ridiculous we didn't get an interview with the guy who made this group very hype, instead we got an interview with this, like wtf who came up with this idea. just retarded really
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On February 17 2015 03:42 Undead1993 wrote:this is so ridiculous we didn't get an interview with the guy who made this group very hype, instead we got an interview with this, like wtf who came up with this idea. just retarded really
people get too angry at things nowadays
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On February 17 2015 03:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:29 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 03:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 01:20 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:06 Xoronius wrote:On February 16 2015 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
Aeromi should tweet about RR too :D Unfortunately to my knowledge Aeromi doesn't share the correct opinion on this issue. Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. I'm pretty sure that the GSL guys still have PTSD from the Naniwa vs Nestea everytime they hear "Round Robin", so yeah good luck with killing the GSL format d: Naniwa vs Nestea only happens when a player isn't professional, you can deal with that as it happens (just ban him) RR is just superior and i don't even think this is an opinion at all, i would look at it as a fact Wowowow easy there. While I agree with your first statement, the second one needs further explanation. If it is a fact and not an opinion, can you point me to some factual/scientific/scientific-ish evidence? Ok i maybe should have said it is fairer ( which i consider superior in this instance) You play vs every opponent of your group instead of a random draw, pretty straight forward imo. Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol Well i understand why, but you don't have to participate if you don't like it :D
Well I guess that's where we disagree. I think the GSL format is superior (although I agree that it is fairer) because it is easier to understand (a player loses two times -> out, wins two times -> in), more time-efficient (I mean when you see that SpoTV/KeSPA weren't able to schedule the STYW-JAGW match later, I dunno how they would handle a tiebreaker lol. DH-style?), and gives more potential for group-lasting storylines.
edit : I understand your POV though. Ideally Starcraft group stages should be played with the Swiss-format though.
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On February 17 2015 03:45 KingofdaHipHop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:42 Undead1993 wrote:this is so ridiculous we didn't get an interview with the guy who made this group very hype, instead we got an interview with this, like wtf who came up with this idea. just retarded really people get too angry at things nowadays
well can you legitimate that for me pls?
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On February 17 2015 03:46 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 03:29 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 03:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 01:20 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:06 Xoronius wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately to my knowledge Aeromi doesn't share the correct opinion on this issue.
Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. I'm pretty sure that the GSL guys still have PTSD from the Naniwa vs Nestea everytime they hear "Round Robin", so yeah good luck with killing the GSL format d: Naniwa vs Nestea only happens when a player isn't professional, you can deal with that as it happens (just ban him) RR is just superior and i don't even think this is an opinion at all, i would look at it as a fact Wowowow easy there. While I agree with your first statement, the second one needs further explanation. If it is a fact and not an opinion, can you point me to some factual/scientific/scientific-ish evidence? Ok i maybe should have said it is fairer ( which i consider superior in this instance) You play vs every opponent of your group instead of a random draw, pretty straight forward imo. On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol Well i understand why, but you don't have to participate if you don't like it :D Well I guess that's where we disagree. I think the GSL format is superior (although I agree that it is fairer) because it is easier to understand (a player loses two times -> out, wins two times -> in), more time-efficient (I mean when you see that SpoTV/KeSPA weren't able to schedule the STYW-JAGW match later, I dunno how they would handle a tiebreaker lol. DH-style?), and gives more potential for group-lasting storylines. edit : I understand your POV though. Ideally Starcraft group stages should be played with the Swiss-format though.
easier to understand
Hm i am not so sure about that tbh. I don't think a round robin is hard to understand either.
more time-efficient
Ok that is true, even though that's only a real issue in the case of tie breakers.
But it was possible in BW, i don't see why it wouldn't be possible now (i mean if you choose RR you plan for it^^)
more potential for group-lasting storylines
Can you elaborate? I am not sure what you mean tbh.
So yeah, both groups have advantages, i just value the aspect of fairness as the most important by far.
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On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:06 Xoronius wrote:On February 16 2015 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 16 2015 19:54 Xoronius wrote:On February 16 2015 12:15 brickrd wrote:On February 16 2015 12:13 D-light wrote:
Congrats TLO for going 2-3 against this Brazilian terran.
I always believed in you. fortunately when playing in "groups" you are compared to the entire group otherwise it would be a "single elim bracket". crazy stuff i know "The entire group" as in "not Polt" for TLO and "not Jim" for Kelazhur. I might have said it before, but this wouldn't have happened in RR. Aeromi should tweet about RR too :D Unfortunately to my knowledge Aeromi doesn't share the correct opinion on this issue. Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so.
Hehe, I wish you luck with your cause then (but I hope you don't succeed obviously)
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On February 17 2015 07:06 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:06 Xoronius wrote:On February 16 2015 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 16 2015 19:54 Xoronius wrote:On February 16 2015 12:15 brickrd wrote:On February 16 2015 12:13 D-light wrote:
Congrats TLO for going 2-3 against this Brazilian terran.
I always believed in you. fortunately when playing in "groups" you are compared to the entire group otherwise it would be a "single elim bracket". crazy stuff i know "The entire group" as in "not Polt" for TLO and "not Jim" for Kelazhur. I might have said it before, but this wouldn't have happened in RR. Aeromi should tweet about RR too :D Unfortunately to my knowledge Aeromi doesn't share the correct opinion on this issue. Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. Hehe, I wish you luck with your cause then (but I hope you don't succeed obviously)
Thank you.
On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol
I am already restraining myself to bring it up after the group is over. I think that is a fair compromise.
On February 17 2015 03:46 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 03:29 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 03:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 01:20 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:06 Xoronius wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately to my knowledge Aeromi doesn't share the correct opinion on this issue.
Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. I'm pretty sure that the GSL guys still have PTSD from the Naniwa vs Nestea everytime they hear "Round Robin", so yeah good luck with killing the GSL format d: Naniwa vs Nestea only happens when a player isn't professional, you can deal with that as it happens (just ban him) RR is just superior and i don't even think this is an opinion at all, i would look at it as a fact Wowowow easy there. While I agree with your first statement, the second one needs further explanation. If it is a fact and not an opinion, can you point me to some factual/scientific/scientific-ish evidence? Ok i maybe should have said it is fairer ( which i consider superior in this instance) You play vs every opponent of your group instead of a random draw, pretty straight forward imo. On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol Well i understand why, but you don't have to participate if you don't like it :D Well I guess that's where we disagree. I think the GSL format is superior (although I agree that it is fairer) because it is easier to understand (a player loses two times -> out, wins two times -> in), more time-efficient (I mean when you see that SpoTV/KeSPA weren't able to schedule the STYW-JAGW match later, I dunno how they would handle a tiebreaker lol. DH-style?), and gives more potential for group-lasting storylines. edit : I understand your POV though. Ideally Starcraft group stages should be played with the Swiss-format though.
All of your points are true. None of them has anything to do with fairness. Being easier to understand only changes the watchers perspective about fairness, not the acutal fairness itself. The time-thing is true, but WCS isn't on a strict schedule; they play one group per day, so tie-breakers (to infinity, if it's neccessary) are solving that at least for this tournament (that is a much bigger problem in other events, though, I can see that as a point). Storylines have nothing at all to do with fairness.
Having a tournament with swiss system (I assume, you mean the one, that is used in chess) would be a nice breath of fresh air, but if you play a 4-man group in 3 rounds of swiss-system, it just becomes RR again.
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On February 17 2015 03:55 Undead1993 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:45 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On February 17 2015 03:42 Undead1993 wrote:this is so ridiculous we didn't get an interview with the guy who made this group very hype, instead we got an interview with this, like wtf who came up with this idea. just retarded really people get too angry at things nowadays well can you legitimate that for me pls?
more incentive for people to come out to live events
"If you come out, you can be on stream and have your say. What you say matters to us and to the viewers."
I think anyway, and that's worth it even if we get the occasional oddity lol.
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On February 17 2015 12:41 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:55 Undead1993 wrote:On February 17 2015 03:45 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On February 17 2015 03:42 Undead1993 wrote:this is so ridiculous we didn't get an interview with the guy who made this group very hype, instead we got an interview with this, like wtf who came up with this idea. just retarded really people get too angry at things nowadays well can you legitimate that for me pls? more incentive for people to come out to live events "If you come out, you can be on stream and have your say. What you say matters to us and to the viewers." I think anyway, and that's worth it even if we get the occasional oddity lol.
better than x5 of Die4Ever's Interview Simulation
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On February 17 2015 05:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:46 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 03:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 03:29 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 03:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 01:20 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:
[quote]
Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. I'm pretty sure that the GSL guys still have PTSD from the Naniwa vs Nestea everytime they hear "Round Robin", so yeah good luck with killing the GSL format d: Naniwa vs Nestea only happens when a player isn't professional, you can deal with that as it happens (just ban him) RR is just superior and i don't even think this is an opinion at all, i would look at it as a fact Wowowow easy there. While I agree with your first statement, the second one needs further explanation. If it is a fact and not an opinion, can you point me to some factual/scientific/scientific-ish evidence? Ok i maybe should have said it is fairer ( which i consider superior in this instance) You play vs every opponent of your group instead of a random draw, pretty straight forward imo. On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol Well i understand why, but you don't have to participate if you don't like it :D Well I guess that's where we disagree. I think the GSL format is superior (although I agree that it is fairer) because it is easier to understand (a player loses two times -> out, wins two times -> in), more time-efficient (I mean when you see that SpoTV/KeSPA weren't able to schedule the STYW-JAGW match later, I dunno how they would handle a tiebreaker lol. DH-style?), and gives more potential for group-lasting storylines. edit : I understand your POV though. Ideally Starcraft group stages should be played with the Swiss-format though. Hm i am not so sure about that tbh. I don't think a round robin is hard to understand either. Ok that is true, even though that's only a real issue in the case of tie breakers. But it was possible in BW, i don't see why it wouldn't be possible now (i mean if you choose RR you plan for it^^) Can you elaborate? I am not sure what you mean tbh. So yeah, both groups have advantages, i just value the aspect of fairness as the most important by far.
Well by easier to understand I mean that you tune in, see X vs Y and hear the casters say it's the loser's match, you now that the loser will be out, you don't have to check the results of past series and maps and involve map score etc etc. As for the group-lasting storylines I'm talking about the fact that every match past the first two are decisive (more hype, etc) and it allows for easier upsets than RR, as well as giving us the possibility to see players go one map away from qualifying in the winners' match to then lose in the decider.
On February 17 2015 07:22 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 07:06 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:06 Xoronius wrote:On February 16 2015 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 16 2015 19:54 Xoronius wrote:On February 16 2015 12:15 brickrd wrote:
[quote]
fortunately when playing in "groups" you are compared to the entire group otherwise it would be a "single elim bracket". crazy stuff i know "The entire group" as in "not Polt" for TLO and "not Jim" for Kelazhur. I might have said it before, but this wouldn't have happened in RR. Aeromi should tweet about RR too :D Unfortunately to my knowledge Aeromi doesn't share the correct opinion on this issue. Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. Hehe, I wish you luck with your cause then (but I hope you don't succeed obviously) Thank you. Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol I am already restraining myself to bring it up after the group is over. I think that is a fair compromise. Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 03:46 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 03:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 03:29 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 03:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 01:20 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:
[quote]
Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. I'm pretty sure that the GSL guys still have PTSD from the Naniwa vs Nestea everytime they hear "Round Robin", so yeah good luck with killing the GSL format d: Naniwa vs Nestea only happens when a player isn't professional, you can deal with that as it happens (just ban him) RR is just superior and i don't even think this is an opinion at all, i would look at it as a fact Wowowow easy there. While I agree with your first statement, the second one needs further explanation. If it is a fact and not an opinion, can you point me to some factual/scientific/scientific-ish evidence? Ok i maybe should have said it is fairer ( which i consider superior in this instance) You play vs every opponent of your group instead of a random draw, pretty straight forward imo. On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol Well i understand why, but you don't have to participate if you don't like it :D Well I guess that's where we disagree. I think the GSL format is superior (although I agree that it is fairer) because it is easier to understand (a player loses two times -> out, wins two times -> in), more time-efficient (I mean when you see that SpoTV/KeSPA weren't able to schedule the STYW-JAGW match later, I dunno how they would handle a tiebreaker lol. DH-style?), and gives more potential for group-lasting storylines. edit : I understand your POV though. Ideally Starcraft group stages should be played with the Swiss-format though. All of your points are true. None of them has anything to do with fairness. Being easier to understand only changes the watchers perspective about fairness, not the acutal fairness itself. The time-thing is true, but WCS isn't on a strict schedule; they play one group per day, so tie-breakers (to infinity, if it's neccessary) are solving that at least for this tournament (that is a much bigger problem in other events, though, I can see that as a point). Storylines have nothing at all to do with fairness. Having a tournament with swiss system (I assume, you mean the one, that is used in chess) would be a nice breath of fresh air, but if you play a 4-man group in 3 rounds of swiss-system, it just becomes RR again.
Well, I said that RR is indeed fairer. So I dunno what you want more. Obviously fairness is the very basis of any legit sports-like competition, but there is a point where it becomes acceptable to lose some fairness for the sake of other things. I mean, playoffs are unfair by nature, right? They allow bracket luck as well as people winning tournaments facing only one race. Why aren't we playing tourneys like IEM Katowice or BlizzCon in a big RR or in Swiss system (yes the one that is used in chess) instead of BoX playoffs? Because bracket luck is part of the game, and that's why to me the slight unfairness of GSL format is acceptable, as long as the groups were selected randomly with seeds and not with a format that allows someone to willfully make life difficult for another player.
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On February 17 2015 15:53 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 07:22 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 07:06 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:07 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:06 Xoronius wrote:On February 16 2015 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 16 2015 19:54 Xoronius wrote:
[quote]
"The entire group" as in "not Polt" for TLO and "not Jim" for Kelazhur. I might have said it before, but this wouldn't have happened in RR. Aeromi should tweet about RR too :D Unfortunately to my knowledge Aeromi doesn't share the correct opinion on this issue. Sounds like a fun concept. There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one. But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. Hehe, I wish you luck with your cause then (but I hope you don't succeed obviously) Thank you. On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol I am already restraining myself to bring it up after the group is over. I think that is a fair compromise. On February 17 2015 03:46 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 03:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 03:29 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 03:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 01:20 OtherWorld wrote:On February 17 2015 00:57 Xoronius wrote:On February 17 2015 00:35 Penev wrote:On February 17 2015 00:13 Xoronius wrote:
[quote]
There are always 2 opinions on stuff: My own and a false one.
But seriously, the wording here has more to do with my history of discussion regarding this over the last 3-4 years than with actually believing in the concept of a "correct opinion". Haha; You're at it again Xoro? Maybe we should just post our private messages about this if it comes up so that everyone has all the pro's and cons of both formats :D People complained about BL/Infestor, until it was gone and I am determined to do the same with the GSL format. As the self-proclaimed prophet of Round Robin it is my duty to do so. I'm pretty sure that the GSL guys still have PTSD from the Naniwa vs Nestea everytime they hear "Round Robin", so yeah good luck with killing the GSL format d: Naniwa vs Nestea only happens when a player isn't professional, you can deal with that as it happens (just ban him) RR is just superior and i don't even think this is an opinion at all, i would look at it as a fact Wowowow easy there. While I agree with your first statement, the second one needs further explanation. If it is a fact and not an opinion, can you point me to some factual/scientific/scientific-ish evidence? Ok i maybe should have said it is fairer ( which i consider superior in this instance) You play vs every opponent of your group instead of a random draw, pretty straight forward imo. On February 17 2015 03:31 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
lol i always hate when the stupid format arguments happen lol Well i understand why, but you don't have to participate if you don't like it :D Well I guess that's where we disagree. I think the GSL format is superior (although I agree that it is fairer) because it is easier to understand (a player loses two times -> out, wins two times -> in), more time-efficient (I mean when you see that SpoTV/KeSPA weren't able to schedule the STYW-JAGW match later, I dunno how they would handle a tiebreaker lol. DH-style?), and gives more potential for group-lasting storylines. edit : I understand your POV though. Ideally Starcraft group stages should be played with the Swiss-format though. All of your points are true. None of them has anything to do with fairness. Being easier to understand only changes the watchers perspective about fairness, not the acutal fairness itself. The time-thing is true, but WCS isn't on a strict schedule; they play one group per day, so tie-breakers (to infinity, if it's neccessary) are solving that at least for this tournament (that is a much bigger problem in other events, though, I can see that as a point). Storylines have nothing at all to do with fairness. Having a tournament with swiss system (I assume, you mean the one, that is used in chess) would be a nice breath of fresh air, but if you play a 4-man group in 3 rounds of swiss-system, it just becomes RR again. Well, I said that RR is indeed fairer. So I dunno what you want more. Obviously fairness is the very basis of any legit sports-like competition, but there is a point where it becomes acceptable to lose some fairness for the sake of other things. I mean, playoffs are unfair by nature, right? They allow bracket luck as well as people winning tournaments facing only one race. Why aren't we playing tourneys like IEM Katowice or BlizzCon in a big RR or in Swiss system (yes the one that is used in chess) instead of BoX playoffs? Because bracket luck is part of the game, and that's why to me the slight unfairness of GSL format is acceptable, as long as the groups were selected randomly with seeds and not with a format that allows someone to willfully make life difficult for another player.
Ok, misunderstood you earlier than. If you are willing to sacrifice a bit of fairness for other things, that is an opinion (not a correct or false one this time  ), I do not share, but I can see, why you are prefering Double-elim then.
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How can you even think to say that RR is fairer? Somebody even brought up the problem, but it was quickly dismissed, because it is inconvenient. The situation when somebody's advancement is decided by a match of two other people, one of which has nothing to gain/lose is inevitable in RR and it is the polar opposite of "fair". You can toss around "professionality" as much as you want, it won't make it fair.
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On February 17 2015 22:39 opisska wrote:
How can you even think to say that RR is fairer? Somebody even brought up the problem, but it was quickly dismissed, because it is inconvenient. The situation when somebody's advancement is decided by a match of two other people, one of which has nothing to gain/lose is inevitable in RR and it is the polar opposite of "fair". You can toss around "professionality" as much as you want, it won't make it fair.
What case are you exactly talking about?
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On February 18 2015 01:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 22:39 opisska wrote:
How can you even think to say that RR is fairer? Somebody even brought up the problem, but it was quickly dismissed, because it is inconvenient. The situation when somebody's advancement is decided by a match of two other people, one of which has nothing to gain/lose is inevitable in RR and it is the polar opposite of "fair". You can toss around "professionality" as much as you want, it won't make it fair. What case are you exactly talking about?
I am talking exactly about the case I have so explicitly described. Not a specific instance of it happening, but about the fact that this can happen and cannot be avoided.
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On February 17 2015 22:39 opisska wrote:
How can you even think to say that RR is fairer? Somebody even brought up the problem, but it was quickly dismissed, because it is inconvenient. The situation when somebody's advancement is decided by a match of two other people, one of which has nothing to gain/lose is inevitable in RR and it is the polar opposite of "fair". You can toss around "professionality" as much as you want, it won't make it fair.
You are WRONG.
RR is fairer cause at least between 2 guys we can determine the better one.
You can argue that group selection is already a RANDOM factor. Fair. So I consider 2 people facing each other first in Double Bracket be in the same "little group". But even in this little group, things are not fair.
There is an extreme case for this when your group has 4 people, 1 ranked extremely high (H), 1 extremely low(L), and 2 other guys in the middle (A & B).
Matches are A vs B, H vs L.
A wins, H wins.
A vs H -> A loses -> exhausted (plays the best player)
B vs L -> B wins -> easy win (cause L is really bad)
now decider: A vs B rematch
Now B gains 2 BIG advantages:
1. A is exhausted mentally & physically after losing hard games to H.
2. A shows all his cards the first time they met.
Thus, B wins the rematch, despite being the worse player. All because of DB.
If B identifies the situation right from the beginning (that there is H very good and L very bad), he can have a high-chance winning strategy: loses purposely to A but try to make him expose all cards, then use prepared strategies ONLY in the rematch.
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On February 18 2015 01:40 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 01:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 22:39 opisska wrote:
How can you even think to say that RR is fairer? Somebody even brought up the problem, but it was quickly dismissed, because it is inconvenient. The situation when somebody's advancement is decided by a match of two other people, one of which has nothing to gain/lose is inevitable in RR and it is the polar opposite of "fair". You can toss around "professionality" as much as you want, it won't make it fair. What case are you exactly talking about? I am talking exactly about the case I have so explicitly described. Not a specific instance of it happening, but about the fact that this can happen and cannot be avoided.
so you are talking about mapwins as decider? (kinda what TB was angry about in a dreamhack some time ago)
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On February 18 2015 02:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 01:40 opisska wrote:On February 18 2015 01:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 22:39 opisska wrote:
How can you even think to say that RR is fairer? Somebody even brought up the problem, but it was quickly dismissed, because it is inconvenient. The situation when somebody's advancement is decided by a match of two other people, one of which has nothing to gain/lose is inevitable in RR and it is the polar opposite of "fair". You can toss around "professionality" as much as you want, it won't make it fair. What case are you exactly talking about? I am talking exactly about the case I have so explicitly described. Not a specific instance of it happening, but about the fact that this can happen and cannot be avoided. so you are talking about mapwins as decider? (kinda what TB was angry about in a dreamhack some time ago)
Ok, let me give you a specific example, right?
A>B
C>D
A>C
B<D
A<D
A 2
B 0
C 1
D 2
now we play B vs. C - if B wins, A and D advance while if C wins, then A>C>D>A is a 3-way tie at 2 points.
But there is nothing for B in the last game (except for pride) and that gives C a huge and unfair advantage. He is not out of the woods yet (in more than 4-player groups you can find examples when it's a straight up advancing, not a tie, but I couldn't find one for 4 players), but definitely better off than if he lost ...
If GSL groups, every match is the players plying for themselves, a player never plays in a situation where his fate (good or bad) is already decided.
edit: fate vs. faith is a funny typo
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On February 18 2015 03:28 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 02:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 18 2015 01:40 opisska wrote:On February 18 2015 01:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 22:39 opisska wrote:
How can you even think to say that RR is fairer? Somebody even brought up the problem, but it was quickly dismissed, because it is inconvenient. The situation when somebody's advancement is decided by a match of two other people, one of which has nothing to gain/lose is inevitable in RR and it is the polar opposite of "fair". You can toss around "professionality" as much as you want, it won't make it fair. What case are you exactly talking about? I am talking exactly about the case I have so explicitly described. Not a specific instance of it happening, but about the fact that this can happen and cannot be avoided. so you are talking about mapwins as decider? (kinda what TB was angry about in a dreamhack some time ago) Ok, let me give you a specific example, right? A>B C>D A>C B<D A<D A 2 B 0 C 1 D 2 now we play B vs. C - if B wins, A and D advance while if C wins, then A>C>D>A is a 3-way tie at 2 points. But there is nothing for B in the last game (except for pride) and that gives C a huge and unfair advantage. He is not out of the woods yet (in more than 4-player groups you can find examples when it's a straight up advancing, not a tie, but I couldn't find one for 4 players), but definitely better off than if he lost ... If GSL groups, every match is the players plying for themselves, a player never plays in a situation where his faith (good or bad) is already decided.
In RR there are always 2 matches played at the same time. Thus A vs D and B vs C are played at the same time and B doesn't know, that D will beat A. Thus the standings would be:
A 2
B 0
C 1
D 1
And B would still have a chance to win a tie-breaker, thus he would play for something.
In the hypothetical case, that the result of A vs D would be known (which is, as said before, usually not the case), the problem is still easily fixable: Make the money distribution 4,5k/3,5k instead of 4k/4k and suddenly instead of playing for nothing, B plays for a chance to maybe overtake C and thus for 1k.
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On February 18 2015 03:36 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 03:28 opisska wrote:On February 18 2015 02:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 18 2015 01:40 opisska wrote:On February 18 2015 01:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 17 2015 22:39 opisska wrote:
How can you even think to say that RR is fairer? Somebody even brought up the problem, but it was quickly dismissed, because it is inconvenient. The situation when somebody's advancement is decided by a match of two other people, one of which has nothing to gain/lose is inevitable in RR and it is the polar opposite of "fair". You can toss around "professionality" as much as you want, it won't make it fair. What case are you exactly talking about? I am talking exactly about the case I have so explicitly described. Not a specific instance of it happening, but about the fact that this can happen and cannot be avoided. so you are talking about mapwins as decider? (kinda what TB was angry about in a dreamhack some time ago) Ok, let me give you a specific example, right? A>B C>D A>C B<D A<D A 2 B 0 C 1 D 2 now we play B vs. C - if B wins, A and D advance while if C wins, then A>C>D>A is a 3-way tie at 2 points. But there is nothing for B in the last game (except for pride) and that gives C a huge and unfair advantage. He is not out of the woods yet (in more than 4-player groups you can find examples when it's a straight up advancing, not a tie, but I couldn't find one for 4 players), but definitely better off than if he lost ... If GSL groups, every match is the players plying for themselves, a player never plays in a situation where his faith (good or bad) is already decided. In RR there are always 2 matches played at the same time. Thus A vs D and B vs C are played at the same time and B doesn't know, that D will beat A. Thus the standings would be: A 2 B 0 C 1 D 1 And B would still have a chance to win a tie-breaker, thus he would play for something. In the hypothetical case, that the result of A vs D would be known (which is, as said before, usually not the case), the problem is still easily fixable: Make the money distribution 4,5k/3,5k instead of 4k/4k and suddenly instead of playing for nothing, B plays for a chance to maybe overtake C and thus for 1k.
1. in a broadcasted league, you will probably want to play the matches one after another because of the viewers. I think there is some space to help things here, because you can choose the order, but the problem is that that also influences the matches, so is not so "fair".
2. what? if tha A-D results is known, B does not advance no matter what, so the prize money distribution is not helping at all. You can make per-match prizes to give incentive, but that can turn out to be expensive and also it is very different to play for 100$ and for a shot on the GSL trophy.
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EPT
