On September 02 2014 12:21 duy2911 wrote: I don't really get why Blizzard tried to design SC2 such that it produces a new champion every 3 months. Any sport that has individuals competing with one another needs a bonjwa at any given time. F1 with Schumacher. Golf with Tiger Wood. Boxing with Mike Tyson. Tennis with Federer. That's what draws the crowds to the stadium.
And has I mentioned that most SC2 players "dominant" players might be good but seem to lost their personality in their play? I mean back in the BW days you can easily recognize players by just by watching their FPVOD: Bisu (four bases simultaneous harassment), Flash (impeccable defense and macro), or JD (split second decision and muta control). Now they all look the same without the faces.
All the hypes with JD or Flash are not because they're overrated. We fans just crave for such personality again.
SC2 has been every bit comparable with BW in terms of champions and dominance. Key difference is that there are many more SC2 tournaments broadcast than BW at the same time. When you actually fact check instead of relying on nostalgia, you'll see a really high turnover rate of the top 16 in the OSL comparable to that of SC2.
I don't think that is true. Let's compare OSL/MSL with GSL/OSL (yeah there weren't many^^). (foreign tournaments are just not consistent enough with the participants i think) If there is interest i would actually do the work
we saw it at other thread about the first 3 or 4 years of BW. BW had more turnover than sc2.
That's a disingenuous comparison, though. Professional gaming was not an industry with established practices for the first several years of BW. The training realities and support systems were very, very different.
I know nothing about BW until 2010 but your reason isnt clear to me. Why is this disingenuos to compare the first 3 years of BW with the first 3 years of Sc2? Training realities is rather no reason because everyone used the same training realities ~10 years ago in BW and nowadays everyone uses the same "modern" training realities.
He's referring to the fact that because it was not "professional" back then, even if you were a champion and extremely good at the game with amazing potential, alot of players just gave up on it because nobody except extremely passionate people like boxer thought it would ever be a real career or occupation. The high turn over rate often reflects players giving up on the game and going to work elsewhere instead of any game issue.
On September 02 2014 18:43 Zealously wrote:
On September 02 2014 17:43 Caihead wrote:
On September 02 2014 17:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 02 2014 12:21 duy2911 wrote: I don't really get why Blizzard tried to design SC2 such that it produces a new champion every 3 months. Any sport that has individuals competing with one another needs a bonjwa at any given time. F1 with Schumacher. Golf with Tiger Wood. Boxing with Mike Tyson. Tennis with Federer. That's what draws the crowds to the stadium.
And has I mentioned that most SC2 players "dominant" players might be good but seem to lost their personality in their play? I mean back in the BW days you can easily recognize players by just by watching their FPVOD: Bisu (four bases simultaneous harassment), Flash (impeccable defense and macro), or JD (split second decision and muta control). Now they all look the same without the faces.
All the hypes with JD or Flash are not because they're overrated. We fans just crave for such personality again.
I call major bs on this one. There are numerous defining attributes and play styles I can name about different players to distinguish them.
Life in particular is one of those players I'd be confident in being able to identify in a group of mystery zergs. Nobody seems to be able to consistently replicate his aggressive/reactive style of play with the same control. Even back when he burst onto the scene, nearly every top Zerg said they couldn't do it.
I dunno, Donglings (BW) still > Lifelings, bisu probe micro > any worker micro i've ever seen in sc2 barring that one instance when Polt or bomber (?) spammed build supply depot on a ramp while a zerg was attacking in like 2011 or 2012, fantasy vultures >>> bogus hellbats / hellion, I can't think of something comparable in sc2 for alot of things players were trade marked for in BW.
When I started watching BW, JD had already ascended to god-tier so I don't know his gameplay history very well, but was he really as fond of zerglings (in situations where no one else would ever use them to any effect) as Life is? You can argue efficiency or skill all you want, but fact remains that Life's ling-heavy style is incredibly unique and very easy to discern. Does JD being good with lings in BW change that?
Well considering JD made deep championship runs off the back that his ZvZ was probably one of the best player match-ups in BW history, and that in BW ZvZ you ONLY made lings and mutas in the first 10-12 minutes, yeah he was as fond of zerglings as life is, if not more.
So in other word's JD's ling play was near-identical to Effort's?
The point is that Life's composition *and* micro make him instantly identifiable.
As you said, everyone in high level BW ZvZ went Ling - Muta, so they all ended up with the same composition. That JD could distinguish himself by micro alone says a lot about him of course, but you're almost intentionally missing the point about Life being very stylistic (notice the disclaimer of Life using them when they aren't called for - ie not in BW ZvZ when it's the only way to go).
Well back in the day (09-10) if you showed you 50 videos of ZvZ or ZvT and removed the name plates and asked you which ones were Jaedong's lings / mutas, it was pretty damn clear, his control was just above everyone else (and more over he did different things compared to everyone else). Same with PvT for BeSt or Jangbi, or TvP / TvZ for Flash / Fantasy, or TvZ for Light, or TvT for Flash, or PvP /PvZ for Bisu. It was that distinct.
For example
Everybody assumed Jaedong was in an un-winnable position, Flash had a squad of units camping Jaedong's third/fourth location, even setting up a bunker, there's a bunker at the natural with 2 fire bats, turrets and marine / medic in the main, and Jaedong just had a squad of mutas and 7 lings out on the map. A typical zerg would have tried to surround the force that was in the middle of the map, take the losses and take the third / fourth and play from behind, only Jaedong would know to attack from that position.
On September 02 2014 12:21 duy2911 wrote: I don't really get why Blizzard tried to design SC2 such that it produces a new champion every 3 months. Any sport that has individuals competing with one another needs a bonjwa at any given time. F1 with Schumacher. Golf with Tiger Wood. Boxing with Mike Tyson. Tennis with Federer. That's what draws the crowds to the stadium.
And has I mentioned that most SC2 players "dominant" players might be good but seem to lost their personality in their play? I mean back in the BW days you can easily recognize players by just by watching their FPVOD: Bisu (four bases simultaneous harassment), Flash (impeccable defense and macro), or JD (split second decision and muta control). Now they all look the same without the faces.
All the hypes with JD or Flash are not because they're overrated. We fans just crave for such personality again.
Blizzard didn't design it that way. No one has reached the level where they have perfect mechanics, decision making and understanding of Starcraft II yet, so upsets happen when a progamer is unprepared for certain strategies, compositions or they simply make mistakes in positioning, micro or scouting.
Just because YOU don't see Flash's style shining through doesn't mean there isn't a personality in his play. His style is just extremely smart, defense oriented, standard play.
Rain doesn't play like PartinG, sOs or herO; Life does not resemble Soulkey, Snute, or Symbol; and FlaSh doesn't look like Maru, Bbyong, or Innovation.
As far as consistency, have you heard of a Zerg named soO?
I forgot how the documentary was named, but they repeatedly said it was designed that way on purpose, for instance that even a lesser foreigner can win tournaments from time to time.
Rollora,
First, thanks for sharing that video.
Blizzard wanted to put some uncertainty into the game, but it wasn't their intention to design a game with such a large uncertainty that their will never be a bonjwa.
Another factor they wanted to weigh heavily on when designing SC2 is skill, and that reduces some of that uncertainty. If you know you're better than your opponent, there should be less uncertainty. Will a lesser-foreigner win a tournament? For sure, but this could be attributed to other things, and not purely skill. Perhaps it's the foreigner's play style, such that its difficult to read the opponent.
As well, Lunareste was referring to personality shining through in gameplay, not the uncertainty of dominant champions. In fact, SC2 skills vary so much that personalities do shine through. Snute builds a bajillion swarmhosts in some of his zvp games, while hyun favours his roach hydra. Zest is another example of personality shining through. In tvp he prefers 3 colossi 10min push, and in tvz he enjoys using stargates.
The biggest example of personality through gameplay is Avilo. His mech play is absurd numbers of ravens and vikings with speckled tanks and thors. It works and he has crushed pros with it before, but it would rarely work on them twice.
And thx for sharing your opinion.Jett.Jack.Alvir. I agree with you in every point, which is nice since it keeps the discussion evolving. Still I have the FEELING, and it might be nostalgia, but that these uncertainties were not that big with BW. Also I still rage about scouted allins that kill my favorites - but that is my fanboyism that maybe leads me to misjudge the situation.
And because you mentioned Avilo or playstyle in general: I can see that there is a big impact of that. Like Flash almost lost to Snute because he wasn't used to the new EU-only (so far) playstyle of zerg. Like when Stephano won his Tourneys and so on. Helps evolving the meta of course.
So it is yet to be seen, if SC2 is TOO uncertain/random/versatile and there will never bee a Flash-like bonjwa. And I hope it to be Flash
It's very refreshing having a discussion with people on TL.net, as opposed to the unmoderated hell that is the battle.net forums.
I don't remember much about the broodwar era, but I did play it and I think this nostalgia you are feeling is due to the INCREDIBLE skill ceiling in broodwar. I think we can all agree, BW requires more skill to play than its successor. The UI and design created inherited skill ceilings (e.g. pathing).
This higher skill ceiling further reduced any uncertainty.
Well we have to give the game and pros more time to mature and evolve before we see any solid bonjwa. I hope Flash's performance in Toronto gave us a small indication of his future domination over all the other proletariats.
On September 02 2014 12:21 duy2911 wrote: I don't really get why Blizzard tried to design SC2 such that it produces a new champion every 3 months. Any sport that has individuals competing with one another needs a bonjwa at any given time. F1 with Schumacher. Golf with Tiger Wood. Boxing with Mike Tyson. Tennis with Federer. That's what draws the crowds to the stadium.
And has I mentioned that most SC2 players "dominant" players might be good but seem to lost their personality in their play? I mean back in the BW days you can easily recognize players by just by watching their FPVOD: Bisu (four bases simultaneous harassment), Flash (impeccable defense and macro), or JD (split second decision and muta control). Now they all look the same without the faces.
All the hypes with JD or Flash are not because they're overrated. We fans just crave for such personality again.
SC2 has been every bit comparable with BW in terms of champions and dominance. Key difference is that there are many more SC2 tournaments broadcast than BW at the same time. When you actually fact check instead of relying on nostalgia, you'll see a really high turnover rate of the top 16 in the OSL comparable to that of SC2.
I don't think that is true. Let's compare OSL/MSL with GSL/OSL (yeah there weren't many^^). (foreign tournaments are just not consistent enough with the participants i think) If there is interest i would actually do the work
we saw it at other thread about the first 3 or 4 years of BW. BW had more turnover than sc2.
That's a disingenuous comparison, though. Professional gaming was not an industry with established practices for the first several years of BW. The training realities and support systems were very, very different.
I know nothing about BW until 2010 but your reason isnt clear to me. Why is this disingenuos to compare the first 3 years of BW with the first 3 years of Sc2? Training realities is rather no reason because everyone used the same training realities ~10 years ago in BW and nowadays everyone uses the same "modern" training realities.
He's referring to the fact that because it was not "professional" back then, even if you were a champion and extremely good at the game with amazing potential, alot of players just gave up on it because nobody except extremely passionate people like boxer thought it would ever be a real career or occupation. The high turn over rate often reflects players giving up on the game and going to work elsewhere instead of any game issue.
On September 02 2014 18:43 Zealously wrote:
On September 02 2014 17:43 Caihead wrote:
On September 02 2014 17:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 02 2014 12:21 duy2911 wrote: I don't really get why Blizzard tried to design SC2 such that it produces a new champion every 3 months. Any sport that has individuals competing with one another needs a bonjwa at any given time. F1 with Schumacher. Golf with Tiger Wood. Boxing with Mike Tyson. Tennis with Federer. That's what draws the crowds to the stadium.
And has I mentioned that most SC2 players "dominant" players might be good but seem to lost their personality in their play? I mean back in the BW days you can easily recognize players by just by watching their FPVOD: Bisu (four bases simultaneous harassment), Flash (impeccable defense and macro), or JD (split second decision and muta control). Now they all look the same without the faces.
All the hypes with JD or Flash are not because they're overrated. We fans just crave for such personality again.
I call major bs on this one. There are numerous defining attributes and play styles I can name about different players to distinguish them.
Life in particular is one of those players I'd be confident in being able to identify in a group of mystery zergs. Nobody seems to be able to consistently replicate his aggressive/reactive style of play with the same control. Even back when he burst onto the scene, nearly every top Zerg said they couldn't do it.
I dunno, Donglings (BW) still > Lifelings, bisu probe micro > any worker micro i've ever seen in sc2 barring that one instance when Polt or bomber (?) spammed build supply depot on a ramp while a zerg was attacking in like 2011 or 2012, fantasy vultures >>> bogus hellbats / hellion, I can't think of something comparable in sc2 for alot of things players were trade marked for in BW.
When I started watching BW, JD had already ascended to god-tier so I don't know his gameplay history very well, but was he really as fond of zerglings (in situations where no one else would ever use them to any effect) as Life is? You can argue efficiency or skill all you want, but fact remains that Life's ling-heavy style is incredibly unique and very easy to discern. Does JD being good with lings in BW change that?
Well considering JD made deep championship runs off the back that his ZvZ was probably one of the best player match-ups in BW history, and that in BW ZvZ you ONLY made lings and mutas in the first 10-12 minutes, yeah he was as fond of zerglings as life is, if not more.
So in other word's JD's ling play was near-identical to Effort's?
The point is that Life's composition *and* micro make him instantly identifiable.
As you said, everyone in high level BW ZvZ went Ling - Muta, so they all ended up with the same composition. That JD could distinguish himself by micro alone says a lot about him of course, but you're almost intentionally missing the point about Life being very stylistic (notice the disclaimer of Life using them when they aren't called for - ie not in BW ZvZ when it's the only way to go).
Well back in the day (09-10) if you showed you 50 videos of ZvZ or ZvT and removed the name plates and asked you which ones were Jaedong's lings / mutas, it was pretty damn clear, his control was just above everyone else (and more over he did different things compared to everyone else). Same with PvT for BeSt or Jangbi, or TvP / TvZ for Flash / Fantasy, or TvZ for Light, or TvT for Flash, or PvP /PvZ for Bisu. It was that distinct.
Everybody assumed Jaedong was in an un-winnable position, Flash had a squad of units camping Jaedong's third/fourth location, even setting up a bunker, there's a bunker at the natural with 2 fire bats, turrets and marine / medic in the main, and Jaedong just had a squad of mutas and 7 lings out on the map. A typical zerg would have tried to surround the force that was in the middle of the map, take the losses and take the third / fourth and play from behind, only Jaedong would know to attack from that position.
Unfortunately I'm not really versed in how Zerg's play ZvT (for some reason I'm more familiar with the T side of it, I guess cuz I was a very, very casual fan towards the end). But let's rewind this a little since I think talking about who's ling play is better isn't really relevant to the main argument.
In SC2 if I showed you a vod of Life or True or SoO or some other Zerg playing the early game, could you tell the difference? Almost everyone would say yes to that and JD and other BW legends being awesome doesn't really change that (unless you think Life and friends look the same).
On September 02 2014 12:21 duy2911 wrote: I don't really get why Blizzard tried to design SC2 such that it produces a new champion every 3 months. Any sport that has individuals competing with one another needs a bonjwa at any given time. F1 with Schumacher. Golf with Tiger Wood. Boxing with Mike Tyson. Tennis with Federer. That's what draws the crowds to the stadium.
And has I mentioned that most SC2 players "dominant" players might be good but seem to lost their personality in their play? I mean back in the BW days you can easily recognize players by just by watching their FPVOD: Bisu (four bases simultaneous harassment), Flash (impeccable defense and macro), or JD (split second decision and muta control). Now they all look the same without the faces.
All the hypes with JD or Flash are not because they're overrated. We fans just crave for such personality again.
Blizzard didn't design it that way. No one has reached the level where they have perfect mechanics, decision making and understanding of Starcraft II yet, so upsets happen when a progamer is unprepared for certain strategies, compositions or they simply make mistakes in positioning, micro or scouting.
Just because YOU don't see Flash's style shining through doesn't mean there isn't a personality in his play. His style is just extremely smart, defense oriented, standard play.
Rain doesn't play like PartinG, sOs or herO; Life does not resemble Soulkey, Snute, or Symbol; and FlaSh doesn't look like Maru, Bbyong, or Innovation.
As far as consistency, have you heard of a Zerg named soO?
I forgot how the documentary was named, but they repeatedly said it was designed that way on purpose, for instance that even a lesser foreigner can win tournaments from time to time.
Rollora,
First, thanks for sharing that video.
Blizzard wanted to put some uncertainty into the game, but it wasn't their intention to design a game with such a large uncertainty that their will never be a bonjwa.
Another factor they wanted to weigh heavily on when designing SC2 is skill, and that reduces some of that uncertainty. If you know you're better than your opponent, there should be less uncertainty. Will a lesser-foreigner win a tournament? For sure, but this could be attributed to other things, and not purely skill. Perhaps it's the foreigner's play style, such that its difficult to read the opponent.
As well, Lunareste was referring to personality shining through in gameplay, not the uncertainty of dominant champions. In fact, SC2 skills vary so much that personalities do shine through. Snute builds a bajillion swarmhosts in some of his zvp games, while hyun favours his roach hydra. Zest is another example of personality shining through. In tvp he prefers 3 colossi 10min push, and in tvz he enjoys using stargates.
The biggest example of personality through gameplay is Avilo. His mech play is absurd numbers of ravens and vikings with speckled tanks and thors. It works and he has crushed pros with it before, but it would rarely work on them twice.
And thx for sharing your opinion.Jett.Jack.Alvir. I agree with you in every point, which is nice since it keeps the discussion evolving. Still I have the FEELING, and it might be nostalgia, but that these uncertainties were not that big with BW. Also I still rage about scouted allins that kill my favorites - but that is my fanboyism that maybe leads me to misjudge the situation.
And because you mentioned Avilo or playstyle in general: I can see that there is a big impact of that. Like Flash almost lost to Snute because he wasn't used to the new EU-only (so far) playstyle of zerg. Like when Stephano won his Tourneys and so on. Helps evolving the meta of course.
So it is yet to be seen, if SC2 is TOO uncertain/random/versatile and there will never bee a Flash-like bonjwa. And I hope it to be Flash
It's very refreshing having a discussion with people on TL.net, as opposed to the unmoderated hell that is the battle.net forums.
I don't remember much about the broodwar era, but I did play it and I think this nostalgia you are feeling is due to the INCREDIBLE skill ceiling in broodwar. I think we can all agree, BW requires more skill to play than its successor. The UI and design created inherited skill ceilings (e.g. pathing).
This higher skill ceiling further reduced any uncertainty.
Well we have to give the game and pros more time to mature and evolve before we see any solid bonjwa. I hope Flash's performance in Toronto gave us a small indication of his future domination over all the other proletariats.
Guess you just said what I tried to express: it was a harder game with a higher skill ceiling, leading to only those who reached it winning or even dominating.
Now that this is resolved, I will stop crying like a baby and thank you for the constructive discussion.
On September 02 2014 12:21 duy2911 wrote: I don't really get why Blizzard tried to design SC2 such that it produces a new champion every 3 months. Any sport that has individuals competing with one another needs a bonjwa at any given time. F1 with Schumacher. Golf with Tiger Wood. Boxing with Mike Tyson. Tennis with Federer. That's what draws the crowds to the stadium.
And has I mentioned that most SC2 players "dominant" players might be good but seem to lost their personality in their play? I mean back in the BW days you can easily recognize players by just by watching their FPVOD: Bisu (four bases simultaneous harassment), Flash (impeccable defense and macro), or JD (split second decision and muta control). Now they all look the same without the faces.
All the hypes with JD or Flash are not because they're overrated. We fans just crave for such personality again.
Blizzard didn't design it that way. No one has reached the level where they have perfect mechanics, decision making and understanding of Starcraft II yet, so upsets happen when a progamer is unprepared for certain strategies, compositions or they simply make mistakes in positioning, micro or scouting.
Just because YOU don't see Flash's style shining through doesn't mean there isn't a personality in his play. His style is just extremely smart, defense oriented, standard play.
Rain doesn't play like PartinG, sOs or herO; Life does not resemble Soulkey, Snute, or Symbol; and FlaSh doesn't look like Maru, Bbyong, or Innovation.
As far as consistency, have you heard of a Zerg named soO?
I forgot how the documentary was named, but they repeatedly said it was designed that way on purpose, for instance that even a lesser foreigner can win tournaments from time to time.
Rollora,
First, thanks for sharing that video.
Blizzard wanted to put some uncertainty into the game, but it wasn't their intention to design a game with such a large uncertainty that their will never be a bonjwa.
Another factor they wanted to weigh heavily on when designing SC2 is skill, and that reduces some of that uncertainty. If you know you're better than your opponent, there should be less uncertainty. Will a lesser-foreigner win a tournament? For sure, but this could be attributed to other things, and not purely skill. Perhaps it's the foreigner's play style, such that its difficult to read the opponent.
As well, Lunareste was referring to personality shining through in gameplay, not the uncertainty of dominant champions. In fact, SC2 skills vary so much that personalities do shine through. Snute builds a bajillion swarmhosts in some of his zvp games, while hyun favours his roach hydra. Zest is another example of personality shining through. In tvp he prefers 3 colossi 10min push, and in tvz he enjoys using stargates.
The biggest example of personality through gameplay is Avilo. His mech play is absurd numbers of ravens and vikings with speckled tanks and thors. It works and he has crushed pros with it before, but it would rarely work on them twice.
And thx for sharing your opinion.Jett.Jack.Alvir. I agree with you in every point, which is nice since it keeps the discussion evolving. Still I have the FEELING, and it might be nostalgia, but that these uncertainties were not that big with BW. Also I still rage about scouted allins that kill my favorites - but that is my fanboyism that maybe leads me to misjudge the situation.
And because you mentioned Avilo or playstyle in general: I can see that there is a big impact of that. Like Flash almost lost to Snute because he wasn't used to the new EU-only (so far) playstyle of zerg. Like when Stephano won his Tourneys and so on. Helps evolving the meta of course.
So it is yet to be seen, if SC2 is TOO uncertain/random/versatile and there will never bee a Flash-like bonjwa. And I hope it to be Flash
It's very refreshing having a discussion with people on TL.net, as opposed to the unmoderated hell that is the battle.net forums.
I don't remember much about the broodwar era, but I did play it and I think this nostalgia you are feeling is due to the INCREDIBLE skill ceiling in broodwar. I think we can all agree, BW requires more skill to play than its successor. The UI and design created inherited skill ceilings (e.g. pathing).
This higher skill ceiling further reduced any uncertainty.
Well we have to give the game and pros more time to mature and evolve before we see any solid bonjwa. I hope Flash's performance in Toronto gave us a small indication of his future domination over all the other proletariats.
Guess you just said what I tried to express: it was a harder game with a higher skill ceiling, leading to only those who reached it winning or even dominating.
Now that this is resolved, I will stop crying like a baby and thank you for the constructive discussion.
No need to reduce your opinion to that of a mewling baby, it is yours to formulate.
I am happy to have had this discussion with you as well. It feels good to know that our small discussion resulted in further clarity.
I hope we can have another one of these in the future.
People who argue that the skill ceiling in BW is higher have no idea what a skill ceiling is and how complicated it is to quantify.
The reason why identifiable and unique micro and mechanics aren't as widespread in SC2 is the fact that the game is too fast. There are so many more things that pros can do, such as medivac dropping for EMPs/warp prism hot pick up for HTs, individually microing mutas back and forth for health regen, individually burrow/unburrowing roaches for regen, better splitting, individual hellion transformations, zealot stop command to save charge cooldown, improved phoenix control, individual mine burrow/unburrow for improved targeting... the list of things that pros can still do is limitless. Yet even the most mechanically impressive players are still unable to perform these actions consistently because the game is too fast. It's not that there is nothing more to do; it is that the pros who could perform more in BW don't yet have the speed nor ability to do these things in SC2.
The difference is that similar tasks had to be performed in BW to make the most of several units, and there was time to perform these actions due to game speed and a combination of lower damage/longer battles. The fact that many of the BW pros who could perform impressive feats of micro and develop undeniable moments of brilliance have had a difficult time replicating their heroics in SC2 does not necessarily mean that there are no such avenues for genius in the game. As mentioned earlier, the number of things that pros can improve is limitless; whether it is possible for a player to reach a level of skill that allows him to do things no one else can consistently is a question of the limitations of the player, not the game.
It can be argued that the risk/reward ratio in doing impressive micro tricks in SC2 is lower, and that players have more incentive to macro and take key positional and strategic advantages instead of individual ones. Perhaps the divide between the mechanically elite and the also rans could be widened by lowering the game speed slightly to a threshold where some can perform while others cannot. Perhaps it's better to wait and see if someone will finally reach the speed of thought and dexterity required to impress us with their control.
That is game design and has nothing to do with skill ceilings that are hypothetically impossible to reach. If anything the speed of thought and reaction time required in SC2 is higher than BW and in that respect makes it more difficult. BW of course is more difficult in other areas. Neither game is easier nor harder; they are easier or harder in different ways because they are different games.
On September 03 2014 14:44 lichter wrote: People who argue that the skill ceiling in BW is higher have no idea what a skill ceiling is and how complicated it is to quantify.
The reason why identifiable and unique micro and mechanics aren't as widespread in SC2 is the fact that the game is too fast. There are so many more things that pros can do, such as medivac dropping for EMPs/warp prism hot pick up for HTs, individually microing mutas back and forth for health regen, individually burrow/unburrowing roaches for regen, better splitting, individual hellion transformations, zealot stop command to save charge cooldown, improved phoenix control, individual mine burrow/unburrow for improved targeting... the list of things that pros can still do is limitless. Yet even the most mechanically impressive players are still unable to perform these actions consistently because the game is too fast. It's not that there is nothing more to do; it is that the pros who could perform more in BW don't yet have the speed nor ability to do these things in SC2.
The difference is that similar tasks had to be performed in BW to make the most of several units, and there was time to perform these actions due to game speed and a combination of lower damage/longer battles. The fact that many of the BW pros who could perform impressive feats of micro and develop undeniable moments of brilliance have had a difficult time replicating their heroics in SC2 does not necessarily mean that there are no such avenues for genius in the game. As mentioned earlier, the number of things that pros can improve is limitless; whether it is possible for a player to reach a level of skill that allows him to do things no one else can consistently is a question of the limitations of the player, not the game.
It can be argued that the risk/reward ratio in doing impressive micro tricks in SC2 is lower, and that players have more incentive to macro and take key positional and strategic advantages instead of individual ones. Perhaps the divide between the mechanically elite and the also rans could be widened by lowering the game speed slightly to a threshold where some can perform while others cannot. Perhaps it's better to wait and see if someone will finally reach the speed of thought and dexterity required to impress us with their control.
That is game design and has nothing to do with skill ceilings that are hypothetically impossible to reach. If anything the speed of thought and reaction time required in SC2 is higher than BW and in that respect makes it more difficult. BW of course is more difficult in other areas. Neither game is easier nor harder; they are easier or harder in different ways because they are different games.
Well they are two different games, BW and SC2, so there are similarities and differences to the required skill, and yes it is hard to quantify.
The biggest difference though are things like unit selection, smarter pathing and casting, auto-mining, and other things that made SC2 easier to manage than BW. Landing money storms isn't incredibly difficult now, but in BW those required skill.
Blizzard removed some skill requirements, or lowered its ceiling significantly, thus giving more players an opportunity to succeed in SC2. This gave them an opportunity to give the players other things to do that would have more meaningful effect to the game, and increased the difficulty for SC2 to have a bonjwa.
Its not an argument of which is easier to play, or the height of the ceiling. Its a discussion about differences in skill requirement, and how some things in SC2 were made easier to do, while BW had skill ceilings affected by design and code.
We can all agree that both games are incredibly difficult to master, so their hypothetical skill ceilings can't be measured side by side.
On September 03 2014 15:13 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Well they are two different games, BW and SC2, so there are similarities and differences to the required skill, and yes it is hard to quantify.
The biggest difference though are things like unit selection, smarter pathing and casting, auto-mining, and other things that made SC2 easier to manage than BW. Landing money storms isn't incredibly difficult now, but in BW those required skill.
Blizzard removed some skill requirements, or lowered its ceiling significantly, thus giving more players an opportunity to succeed in SC2. This gave them an opportunity to give the players other things to do that would have more meaningful effect to the game, and increased the difficulty for SC2 to have a bonjwa.
While Blizzard removed some skills from BW, it added several others. Storms are much easier to cast and unit clumping is automatic, so splitting and prepositioning units is far more important in SC2. It is the same for just about every other change; it has lowered the skill required for one thing only to increase emphasis on another.
That isn't a skill ceiling though. That is the skill floor. The barrier to entry is much lower in SC2 and even bad players can have a good day. It takes a little less effort to play at a sufficiently decent competitive level. That is what a skill floor is, not a skill ceiling.
A skill ceiling is the maximum attainable skill level, not the minimum required level to be good. The fact that there are thousands of other ways to play better that have not been explored suggests that the skill ceiling has nothing to do with the perceived randomness or luck factor involved in the game.
However it can be argued that the competitive skill floor is too low and the weight for improvement is too heavy. Not enough players are able to elevate towards the skill ceiling, and as I suggested it may be due to the speed of the game. On the other hand, the skill floor has been increasing over time (compare today's games vs 2011); the problem is no single player has been able to improve by leaps and bounds more than other players. In a way that is the true cause for the lack of a bonjwa: the gravity for improvement is too heavy, and everyone improves at a similar pace.
However, as I mentioned earlier, is that a limitation of the game, or the limitation of the players?
Its not an argument of which is easier to play, or the height of the ceiling. Its a discussion about differences in skill requirement, and how some things in SC2 were made easier to do, while BW had skill ceilings affected by design and code.
We can all agree that both games are incredibly difficult to master, so their hypothetical skill ceilings can't be measured side by side.
One is a maze of mirrors while the other is a maze of thorns.
I was buisy with RL stuff for the last few days, so this post is a bit late, but I guess better late than ever.
I hereby publicly admit, that I was wrong about Flash and I admit, that I recognize, that he is a world class player. Not neccesarily th best player and certainly no god yet, but certainly wolrd class. If any Flash fans felt insulted by my apperently wrong assumptions about his skill level, I do apologize for that.
And there it goes. That one was a nice discussion in an anonymous forum. A seldom thing these days.
And when we were constructive and got to a point together without yelling at each other ('s mum, then race, then the game...) a sudden lichter appears
On September 03 2014 21:59 Xoronius wrote: I was buisy with RL stuff for the last few days, so this post is a bit late, but I guess better late than ever.
I hereby publicly admit, that I was wrong about Flash and I admit, that I recognize, that he is a world class player. Not neccesarily th best player and certainly no god yet, but certainly wolrd class. If any Flash fans felt insulted by my apperently wrong assumptions about his skill level, I do apologize for that.
While I never understood the ones calling flash mediocre or even less (he has a winrate of 90% the last 3 qualifiers, +IEM btw), I always thought it was pure hatred or jealousness or not wanting others to happily cheer for someone.
Glad to see people actually not being ignorant, but change their opinions. Rare sight in online discussions, as mentioned above
On September 03 2014 14:44 lichter wrote: People who argue that the skill ceiling in BW is higher have no idea what a skill ceiling is and how complicated it is to quantify.
The reason why identifiable and unique micro and mechanics aren't as widespread in SC2 is the fact that the game is too fast. There are so many more things that pros can do, such as medivac dropping for EMPs/warp prism hot pick up for HTs, individually microing mutas back and forth for health regen, individually burrow/unburrowing roaches for regen, better splitting, individual hellion transformations, zealot stop command to save charge cooldown, improved phoenix control, individual mine burrow/unburrow for improved targeting... the list of things that pros can still do is limitless. Yet even the most mechanically impressive players are still unable to perform these actions consistently because the game is too fast. It's not that there is nothing more to do; it is that the pros who could perform more in BW don't yet have the speed nor ability to do these things in SC2.
The difference is that similar tasks had to be performed in BW to make the most of several units, and there was time to perform these actions due to game speed and a combination of lower damage/longer battles. The fact that many of the BW pros who could perform impressive feats of micro and develop undeniable moments of brilliance have had a difficult time replicating their heroics in SC2 does not necessarily mean that there are no such avenues for genius in the game. As mentioned earlier, the number of things that pros can improve is limitless; whether it is possible for a player to reach a level of skill that allows him to do things no one else can consistently is a question of the limitations of the player, not the game.
It can be argued that the risk/reward ratio in doing impressive micro tricks in SC2 is lower, and that players have more incentive to macro and take key positional and strategic advantages instead of individual ones. Perhaps the divide between the mechanically elite and the also rans could be widened by lowering the game speed slightly to a threshold where some can perform while others cannot. Perhaps it's better to wait and see if someone will finally reach the speed of thought and dexterity required to impress us with their control.
That is game design and has nothing to do with skill ceilings that are hypothetically impossible to reach. If anything the speed of thought and reaction time required in SC2 is higher than BW and in that respect makes it more difficult. BW of course is more difficult in other areas. Neither game is easier nor harder; they are easier or harder in different ways because they are different games.
Yeah you are right of course, the problem is that even if there are theoretically these things pros could do, they probably can't do them (or to put it differently, it isn't worth doing them). So you might be right when you say that it might be even harder in sc2, but i actually think it simply doesn't affect the game enough to be worth it for a pro to do these things for several reasons. So if we accept that (i think it is true, but hey maybe i am wrong on that) it is the game's fault.
On September 03 2014 14:44 lichter wrote: People who argue that the skill ceiling in BW is higher have no idea what a skill ceiling is and how complicated it is to quantify.
The reason why identifiable and unique micro and mechanics aren't as widespread in SC2 is the fact that the game is too fast. There are so many more things that pros can do, such as medivac dropping for EMPs/warp prism hot pick up for HTs, individually microing mutas back and forth for health regen, individually burrow/unburrowing roaches for regen, better splitting, individual hellion transformations, zealot stop command to save charge cooldown, improved phoenix control, individual mine burrow/unburrow for improved targeting... the list of things that pros can still do is limitless. Yet even the most mechanically impressive players are still unable to perform these actions consistently because the game is too fast. It's not that there is nothing more to do; it is that the pros who could perform more in BW don't yet have the speed nor ability to do these things in SC2.
The difference is that similar tasks had to be performed in BW to make the most of several units, and there was time to perform these actions due to game speed and a combination of lower damage/longer battles. The fact that many of the BW pros who could perform impressive feats of micro and develop undeniable moments of brilliance have had a difficult time replicating their heroics in SC2 does not necessarily mean that there are no such avenues for genius in the game. As mentioned earlier, the number of things that pros can improve is limitless; whether it is possible for a player to reach a level of skill that allows him to do things no one else can consistently is a question of the limitations of the player, not the game.
It can be argued that the risk/reward ratio in doing impressive micro tricks in SC2 is lower, and that players have more incentive to macro and take key positional and strategic advantages instead of individual ones. Perhaps the divide between the mechanically elite and the also rans could be widened by lowering the game speed slightly to a threshold where some can perform while others cannot. Perhaps it's better to wait and see if someone will finally reach the speed of thought and dexterity required to impress us with their control.
That is game design and has nothing to do with skill ceilings that are hypothetically impossible to reach. If anything the speed of thought and reaction time required in SC2 is higher than BW and in that respect makes it more difficult. BW of course is more difficult in other areas. Neither game is easier nor harder; they are easier or harder in different ways because they are different games.
Yeah you are right of course, the problem is that even if there are theoretically these things pros could do, they probably can't do them (or to put it differently, it isn't worth doing them). So you might be right when you say that it might be even harder in sc2, but i actually think it simply doesn't affect the game enough to be worth it for a pro to do these things for several reasons. So if we accept that (i think it is true, but hey maybe i am wrong on that) it is the game's fault.
It's definitely possible that it's the game's fault. If, with time, the skill improvement rate stagnates or no pro is able find new ways to be better than the rest, then yes the game's 'way of difficulty' can be blamed. Like I said, I consider the game too fast for players' speed of thought and dexterity, and reducing it to some threshold that some reach while many do not might be a step in the right direction.
My main point is that it has nothing to do with skill ceilings or the game being "easier", but rather game design choices whose impact on skill development hasn't been determined yet. Even late in BW's professional life we could still see players improving, even if the rate was slowing down. If we reach a point where skills stop developing in SC2, then it is definitely a game design problem. Skill ceilings are irrelevant. What is important is the continued rate of skill development.
EPT
