On May 20 2014 04:19 sharkie wrote: The problem with Innovation is: because of his crazy dominance in the past there are only two levels for him by fans: god tier or utter crap ^^
There's nothing in between for Innovation hehe
and the problem about GSL is it is just ONE tournament and you can drop out of it within one short group stage, while other tournaments (like PL) you need to play over several months. Basing things on one tourney is knowingly not a good idea, cause you can cheese your way through several rounds and get very far. I like the proleague format more cause it takes the form over several months. That is why I am wondering, why flash isn't on the list, being at 3rd place of "most kills"
Flash has failed at numerous tournaments. He is just a beast at preparing, thats why he is so strong in PL.
so what defines a good player? Good micro`? Good macro? good allins? good cheese? or is it also good preparation?
on the other hand the most games he lost were just pure flash-counterbuilds If you saw the group stages comparing to he didn't prepare such builds in the group stages, what is why he fails in group stages mostly.
What makes a good player? Winning tournaments.
what makes a good race, 50% winrate? That is such a onsided statement. Wha was C. ronaldo chosen "best player" besides winning NO tournament that year? why was innovation considered best player atm while not winning tournaments? I agree with your list of wins and so on, but the way some play (like TY who wasn't mentioned as well, not only flash) DURING a game is just awesome and in sometimes they show "more" then the mentioned ones recently. Also you forget, that flash was also the player with most wins in last PL, even though the current balance issues. It is said only the best players overcome them so I think it is fair to say that he still belongs to the top players
On May 20 2014 04:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I missed this Polt series. How did Armani wreck him? Never even heard of that guy o.O
Muta muta muta into huge midgame push for the 2 1st games. The 3rd was Polt ahead, attacking the 4rd, polt better army and upgrade, but stilll lose his army. Then polt lost the game with 3/3 with 1/3 because reasons.
No drops by Polt, a nono when you want to be top 10 terran. Bad splits Strange build reasons
Last day people were pointing out that Terran was stupid to try to go for drops, instead they should collect their army and have some killing-instinct (the game was TY vs Effort).
I mean, its like a double punishment, if you drop you should get your shit together and if you get it together you should drop.
Im quite sure they are doing their best and playing to their strenghts.
edit: yeah, you are kinda right.
The problem is terran scales with multitasking and apm like no other race.
Also i think the maps in this season are really hard for t
On May 20 2014 04:33 stuchiu wrote: Targa's ZvZ is good though. Polt's TvZ is not good.
Funny how that seems to apply for every Terran?
Come on, Polt does not have bad TvZ, but it is incredible hard for Terran to go even with Zerg. Balance stats are slowly but steady turning more and more in favour for the Zerg players.
I think it is quite offensive then, saying Polt does not have good TvZ when he puts up such a game vs Armani, who won against Flash in the Code A-qualifier with 2-0 for an example.
I don't think anyone has good TvZ except for Maru against anyone not named Soulkey. Though Inno is a giant ? for me.
I guess I just compare players to the very best of their race. A holdover from a time when every Zerg sucked except for Nestea. Every Protoss sucked except for MC.
EFFORT SAYS HELLO
Effort is like 1st or 2nd best ZvT now. And that was a fucking hard win for him too.
Effort, the guy who was 1-8 in PL right ? I still think the MUs state is why Effort is so good at tvz now.
On May 20 2014 04:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I missed this Polt series. How did Armani wreck him? Never even heard of that guy o.O
Muta muta muta into huge midgame push for the 2 1st games. The 3rd was Polt ahead, attacking the 4rd, polt better army and upgrade, but stilll lose his army. Then polt lost the game with 3/3 with 1/3 because reasons.
Polt was never really ahead besides those upgrades.
Yeah because it's not an huge advantage to be 3/3 vs 1/2 for 5min with 5bases vs 5.
Of course it is, but that's all he had going for him. Broodlords make up for it because it acts as additional buffer, and infestors are incredible against marines. His army composition was just wayyy better. Because Polt was poor for so much of the game he was mostly just making marines, which aren't too great against broodlords, banelings and infestors.
Why don't players actually change races more often? People like Classic, and Gumiho initially being random, and MKP jumping right into the SPL action after having played a different game would suggest that you perhaps can switch races successfully, or take breaks and still be competitive.
ZvT is my favourite matchup both to play and watch, but even as a zerg it saddens me to see the matchup being currently so predictable with terrans losing all the time. Couldn't they switch races until something is patched or figured out?
On May 20 2014 04:39 Shellshock wrote: Disappointed Stork didn't win the paid trip. I hope he sitll goes but idk trip from Korea is probably pretty expensive plus idk if his team would send him
they sent Solar for the last Numericable Nup in France
Didn't they also send Armani for LSC3 when he didn't win the paid trip?
On May 20 2014 04:47 diverzee wrote: Why don't players actually change races more often? People like Classic, and Gumiho initially being random, and MKP jumping right into the SPL action after having played a different game would suggest that you perhaps can switch races successfully, or take breaks and still be competitive.
ZvT is my favourite matchup both to play and watch, but even as a zerg it saddens me to see the matchup being currently so predictable with terrans losing all the time. Couldn't they switch races until something is patched or figured out?
Then you will get fucked in the mirror matchups imo.
On May 20 2014 04:33 stuchiu wrote: Targa's ZvZ is good though. Polt's TvZ is not good.
Funny how that seems to apply for every Terran?
Come on, Polt does not have bad TvZ, but it is incredible hard for Terran to go even with Zerg. Balance stats are slowly but steady turning more and more in favour for the Zerg players.
I think it is quite offensive then, saying Polt does not have good TvZ when he puts up such a game vs Armani, who won against Flash in the Code A-qualifier with 2-0 for an example.
I don't think anyone has good TvZ except for Maru against anyone not named Soulkey. Though Inno is a giant ? for me.
I guess I just compare players to the very best of their race. A holdover from a time when every Zerg sucked except for Nestea. Every Protoss sucked except for MC.
EFFORT SAYS HELLO
Effort is like 1st or 2nd best ZvT now. And that was a fucking hard win for him too.
Effort, the guy who was 1-8 in PL right ? I still think the MUs state is why Effort is so good at tvz now.
On May 20 2014 04:39 Shellshock wrote: Disappointed Stork didn't win the paid trip. I hope he sitll goes but idk trip from Korea is probably pretty expensive plus idk if his team would send him
they sent Solar for the last Numericable Nup in France
Didn't they also send Armani for LSC3 when he didn't win the paid trip?
On May 20 2014 04:33 stuchiu wrote: Targa's ZvZ is good though. Polt's TvZ is not good.
Funny how that seems to apply for every Terran?
Come on, Polt does not have bad TvZ, but it is incredible hard for Terran to go even with Zerg. Balance stats are slowly but steady turning more and more in favour for the Zerg players.
I think it is quite offensive then, saying Polt does not have good TvZ when he puts up such a game vs Armani, who won against Flash in the Code A-qualifier with 2-0 for an example.
I don't think anyone has good TvZ except for Maru against anyone not named Soulkey. Though Inno is a giant ? for me.
I guess I just compare players to the very best of their race. A holdover from a time when every Zerg sucked except for Nestea. Every Protoss sucked except for MC.
EFFORT SAYS HELLO
Effort is like 1st or 2nd best ZvT now. And that was a fucking hard win for him too.
Effort, the guy who was 1-8 in PL right ? I still think the MUs state is why Effort is so good at tvz now.
Was thinking the same
LLLLL lost 5 games in a row before playing maru
but maybe when you have such a losing streak, your opponents start to prepare less for you.
On May 20 2014 04:33 stuchiu wrote: Targa's ZvZ is good though. Polt's TvZ is not good.
Funny how that seems to apply for every Terran?
Come on, Polt does not have bad TvZ, but it is incredible hard for Terran to go even with Zerg. Balance stats are slowly but steady turning more and more in favour for the Zerg players.
I think it is quite offensive then, saying Polt does not have good TvZ when he puts up such a game vs Armani, who won against Flash in the Code A-qualifier with 2-0 for an example.
I don't think anyone has good TvZ except for Maru against anyone not named Soulkey. Though Inno is a giant ? for me.
I guess I just compare players to the very best of their race. A holdover from a time when every Zerg sucked except for Nestea. Every Protoss sucked except for MC.
EFFORT SAYS HELLO
Effort is like 1st or 2nd best ZvT now. And that was a fucking hard win for him too.
Soulkey is definitely #1 now for ZvT. Anything below that is hard to say right now I think.
On May 20 2014 04:33 stuchiu wrote: Targa's ZvZ is good though. Polt's TvZ is not good.
Funny how that seems to apply for every Terran?
Come on, Polt does not have bad TvZ, but it is incredible hard for Terran to go even with Zerg. Balance stats are slowly but steady turning more and more in favour for the Zerg players.
I think it is quite offensive then, saying Polt does not have good TvZ when he puts up such a game vs Armani, who won against Flash in the Code A-qualifier with 2-0 for an example.
I don't think anyone has good TvZ except for Maru against anyone not named Soulkey. Though Inno is a giant ? for me.
I guess I just compare players to the very best of their race. A holdover from a time when every Zerg sucked except for Nestea. Every Protoss sucked except for MC.
EFFORT SAYS HELLO
Effort is like 1st or 2nd best ZvT now. And that was a fucking hard win for him too.
Effort, the guy who was 1-8 in PL right ? I still think the MUs state is why Effort is so good at tvz now.
but maybe when you have such a losing streak, your opponents start to prepare less for you.
I don't think anything changed drastically in the TvZ matchup that makes defending 8-8-8 vs hatch gas pool easier. Effort just prepared immensely for this game.
On May 20 2014 04:33 stuchiu wrote: Targa's ZvZ is good though. Polt's TvZ is not good.
Funny how that seems to apply for every Terran?
Come on, Polt does not have bad TvZ, but it is incredible hard for Terran to go even with Zerg. Balance stats are slowly but steady turning more and more in favour for the Zerg players.
I think it is quite offensive then, saying Polt does not have good TvZ when he puts up such a game vs Armani, who won against Flash in the Code A-qualifier with 2-0 for an example.
I don't think anyone has good TvZ except for Maru against anyone not named Soulkey. Though Inno is a giant ? for me.
I guess I just compare players to the very best of their race. A holdover from a time when every Zerg sucked except for Nestea. Every Protoss sucked except for MC.
EFFORT SAYS HELLO
Effort is like 1st or 2nd best ZvT now. And that was a fucking hard win for him too.
Effort, the guy who was 1-8 in PL right ? I still think the MUs state is why Effort is so good at tvz now.
but maybe when you have such a losing streak, your opponents start to prepare less for you.
I don't think anything changed drastically in the TvZ matchup that makes defending 8-8-8 vs hatch gas pool easier. Effort just prepared immensely for this game.
On May 20 2014 04:19 sharkie wrote: The problem with Innovation is: because of his crazy dominance in the past there are only two levels for him by fans: god tier or utter crap ^^
There's nothing in between for Innovation hehe
and the problem about GSL is it is just ONE tournament and you can drop out of it within one short group stage, while other tournaments (like PL) you need to play over several months. Basing things on one tourney is knowingly not a good idea, cause you can cheese your way through several rounds and get very far. I like the proleague format more cause it takes the form over several months. That is why I am wondering, why flash isn't on the list, being at 3rd place of "most kills"
Flash has failed at numerous tournaments. He is just a beast at preparing, thats why he is so strong in PL.
so what defines a good player? Good micro`? Good macro? good allins? good cheese? or is it also good preparation?
on the other hand the most games he lost were just pure flash-counterbuilds If you saw the group stages comparing to he didn't prepare such builds in the group stages, what is why he fails in group stages mostly.
What makes a good player? Winning tournaments.
what makes a good race, 50% winrate? That is such a onsided statement. Wha was C. ronaldo chosen "best player" besides winning NO tournament that year? why was innovation considered best player atm while not winning tournaments? I agree with your list of wins and so on, but the way some play (like TY who wasn't mentioned as well, not only flash) DURING a game is just awesome and in sometimes they show "more" then the mentioned ones recently. Also you forget, that flash was also the player with most wins in last PL, even though the current balance issues. It is said only the best players overcome them so I think it is fair to say that he still belongs to the top players
I did mention TY earlier.And I said Supernova out did him every step of the way during his series in the GSL. I guess the biggest difference in opinion comes to how much you value PL. I don't think it's super important because its 1 week format with 1 map skill set can only be applied to itself. The rest of the world is playing using the GSL Format or weekend long marathon style of DH/MLG. In that case can I say he is really one of the best players when the majority of his skill can only be used in one specific tournament?
And to add to that Flash outside of PL plays extremely similar to MKP after his IPL win. He either goes cc first or a 11/11 or 8/8/8. His skill and preparation outside of PL just aren't impressive enough for me to include him in the group of Code S Terrans. Do I think he is a strong player? Yes. But just like MKP during that time period, he has a large vulnerability in his play. And this time it's not just Symbol abusing it, but every Zerg and Terran player he meets outside of PL.
Well, it's not like either of us are definitively right or wrong in this case anyway. Just two different perspectives on what make a top player.
On May 20 2014 04:33 stuchiu wrote: Targa's ZvZ is good though. Polt's TvZ is not good.
Funny how that seems to apply for every Terran?
Come on, Polt does not have bad TvZ, but it is incredible hard for Terran to go even with Zerg. Balance stats are slowly but steady turning more and more in favour for the Zerg players.
I think it is quite offensive then, saying Polt does not have good TvZ when he puts up such a game vs Armani, who won against Flash in the Code A-qualifier with 2-0 for an example.
I don't think anyone has good TvZ except for Maru against anyone not named Soulkey. Though Inno is a giant ? for me.
I guess I just compare players to the very best of their race. A holdover from a time when every Zerg sucked except for Nestea. Every Protoss sucked except for MC.
EFFORT SAYS HELLO
Effort is like 1st or 2nd best ZvT now. And that was a fucking hard win for him too.
Effort, the guy who was 1-8 in PL right ? I still think the MUs state is why Effort is so good at tvz now.
Effort was never bad in ZvT...
Having 50% TvZ doesn't make you n°1/2 ZvT player in the world. That's average at best.
On May 20 2014 04:33 stuchiu wrote: Targa's ZvZ is good though. Polt's TvZ is not good.
Funny how that seems to apply for every Terran?
Come on, Polt does not have bad TvZ, but it is incredible hard for Terran to go even with Zerg. Balance stats are slowly but steady turning more and more in favour for the Zerg players.
I think it is quite offensive then, saying Polt does not have good TvZ when he puts up such a game vs Armani, who won against Flash in the Code A-qualifier with 2-0 for an example.
I don't think anyone has good TvZ except for Maru against anyone not named Soulkey. Though Inno is a giant ? for me.
I guess I just compare players to the very best of their race. A holdover from a time when every Zerg sucked except for Nestea. Every Protoss sucked except for MC.
EFFORT SAYS HELLO
Effort is like 1st or 2nd best ZvT now. And that was a fucking hard win for him too.
Effort, the guy who was 1-8 in PL right ? I still think the MUs state is why Effort is so good at tvz now.
Effort was never bad in ZvT...
Having 50% TvZ doesn't make you n°1/2 ZvT player in the world. That's average at best.
On May 20 2014 04:33 stuchiu wrote: Targa's ZvZ is good though. Polt's TvZ is not good.
Funny how that seems to apply for every Terran?
Come on, Polt does not have bad TvZ, but it is incredible hard for Terran to go even with Zerg. Balance stats are slowly but steady turning more and more in favour for the Zerg players.
I think it is quite offensive then, saying Polt does not have good TvZ when he puts up such a game vs Armani, who won against Flash in the Code A-qualifier with 2-0 for an example.
I don't think anyone has good TvZ except for Maru against anyone not named Soulkey. Though Inno is a giant ? for me.
I guess I just compare players to the very best of their race. A holdover from a time when every Zerg sucked except for Nestea. Every Protoss sucked except for MC.
EFFORT SAYS HELLO
Effort is like 1st or 2nd best ZvT now. And that was a fucking hard win for him too.
Effort, the guy who was 1-8 in PL right ? I still think the MUs state is why Effort is so good at tvz now.
Effort was never bad in ZvT...
Having 50% TvZ doesn't make you n°1/2 ZvT player in the world. That's average at best.
His 2014 results are pretty good imo even if you ignore the random bo3 vs RangnaBlade Results for EffOrt after 2014-01-01.
On May 20 2014 04:19 sharkie wrote: The problem with Innovation is: because of his crazy dominance in the past there are only two levels for him by fans: god tier or utter crap ^^
There's nothing in between for Innovation hehe
and the problem about GSL is it is just ONE tournament and you can drop out of it within one short group stage, while other tournaments (like PL) you need to play over several months. Basing things on one tourney is knowingly not a good idea, cause you can cheese your way through several rounds and get very far. I like the proleague format more cause it takes the form over several months. That is why I am wondering, why flash isn't on the list, being at 3rd place of "most kills"
Flash has failed at numerous tournaments. He is just a beast at preparing, thats why he is so strong in PL.
so what defines a good player? Good micro`? Good macro? good allins? good cheese? or is it also good preparation?
on the other hand the most games he lost were just pure flash-counterbuilds If you saw the group stages comparing to he didn't prepare such builds in the group stages, what is why he fails in group stages mostly.
What makes a good player? Winning tournaments.
what makes a good race, 50% winrate? That is such a onsided statement. Wha was C. ronaldo chosen "best player" besides winning NO tournament that year? why was innovation considered best player atm while not winning tournaments? I agree with your list of wins and so on, but the way some play (like TY who wasn't mentioned as well, not only flash) DURING a game is just awesome and in sometimes they show "more" then the mentioned ones recently. Also you forget, that flash was also the player with most wins in last PL, even though the current balance issues. It is said only the best players overcome them so I think it is fair to say that he still belongs to the top players
I did mention TY earlier.And I said Supernova out did him every step of the way during his series in the GSL. I guess the biggest difference in opinion comes to how much you value PL. I don't think it's super important because its 1 week format with 1 map skill set can only be applied to itself. The rest of the world is playing using the GSL Format or weekend long marathon style of DH/MLG. In that case can I say he is really one of the best players when the majority of his skill can only be used in one specific tournament?
And to add to that Flash outside of PL plays extremely similar to MKP after his IPL win. He either goes cc first or a 11/11 or 8/8/8. His skill and preparation outside of PL just aren't impressive enough for me to include him in the group of Code S Terrans. Do I think he is a strong player? Yes. But just like MKP during that time period, he has a large vulnerability in his play. And this time it's not just Symbol abusing it, but every Zerg and Terran player he meets outside of PL.
Well, it's not like either of us are definitively right or wrong in this case anyway. Just two different perspectives on what make a top player.
ok I will stop complaining now, just wondering why ther is no TY or Flash or Taeja on the list. Don't wanna say that they are better or worse just that they need to be at a "best of terran" list.
And now Polt is 0-6 against korean zergs (and not the best). This is so painful to watch because he looks so dominant in TvP and I feel he can beat any protoss, but always fails to a zerg ... This widow mine nerf really hurt him. He keeps using this only one build but it's obviously not working .
EPT
I will stop complaining now, just wondering why ther is no TY or Flash or Taeja on the list. Don't wanna say that they are better or worse just that they need to be at a "best of terran" list.
