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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On February 19 2014 10:13 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 09:21 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On February 19 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 19 2014 08:03 Zealously wrote:On February 19 2014 07:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 19 2014 07:43 Zealously wrote:On February 19 2014 07:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 19 2014 07:36 sharkie wrote:On February 19 2014 07:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 19 2014 07:07 stuchiu wrote:
[quote]
At most there are 11 players in the world not in the WCS KR system that could play at the Code S level: Stardust, ForGG, Hero, Jaedong, Polt, Taeja, San, Jjakji, MC, MMA and Bomber.
Even then I'd argue neither MMA nor Bomber could have gotten to Code S this season anyway.
GSL is still the epitome of skill. Are you actually saying Innovation and Flash didn't get into this Code S because of skill? Actually? Like actually? On top of that you're equating WCS KR system with Code S, which isn't the same thing at all. It's possible for WCS KR to have almost all of the best players, but Code S not to. In fact... it is... not only possible... but... probable. Yes, Innovation and Flash were the inferior players in their groups. This guy! Fun fact. Did you know that if we buffed Zerglings to have 200 HP each, no Terran or Protoss would ever be the superior player in a group with Zerg players ever again? Did you know that making weird insinuations doesn't make it any less clear that you (seem to) think Flash and Innovation only lost because Terran is UP? You win this round. edit: then again you are a Mod, and Mods are obviously favored vs. posters.  I hope you don't back out of a discussion because you think I'd ban you for disagreeing =/ Not at all, TL mods are awesome. But you basically nailed it -- I do think that Terran is, to oversimplify, UP -- so there's not a lot more I can say that'll be constructive. The point was brought up that Code S is the epitome of SC2 skill, and I think that was a lot more true in 2013 seasons 1-3 (including OSL) than 2014 s1, athough Season 3 was already beginning to decline IMO. That was the most balanced race distribution we've ever had in GSL (iirc) and the games were top notch. To see what is in my mind a stark regression is very disheartening given how long each season lasts. Innovation to me is a benchmark macro Terran player, like Rain is for Protoss.* He has proven that he has by far some of the best mechanics in the world, but okay-to-terrible ability to improvise and react to opponents. That to me does not spell "guaranteed finals contender" but it does spell "guaranteed top 16." If he doesn't make it to top 16, something's seriously off, because there should always be a viable standard way to play the game. No NHL team spends more time practicing against a given opponent team than they do practicing their own team synergy. The further behind he falls, the more is off with the game. Obviously that doesn't take into account the fact that he himself may be in a slump, but his losses in Code A and Cologne don't tell me that he's in a (noticeable) slump, they tell me that he has to play off his opponent more than ever, and he's failing to do that as he always has. If someone like Maru or sOs or hyvaa (  ) wants to get into his head and destroy him from the inside out, that's cool. But when every Protoss gets to be sOs vs. Innovation, that's some copyright infringement shit going on. * it's tougher for Rain because of PvP. I really feel for the guy. But game isn't about macro only. Which is exactly why I said "That to me does not spell 'guaranteed finals contender' but it does spell 'guaranteed top 16.'" Because the game is not about macro only. But it should be about macro enough that one of the top 5 strongest mechanical players in the world should have a guaranteed spot in the top 16. Right now TvP isn't about macro at all unless you're ForGG, Polt, playing against Rain, or outclassing your opponent (and even then not necessarily). Edit: hyperbole probably isn't the best way to get this point across, but I have to run, so hopefully you'll see what I meant.
Gotcha.
Game is unfair, it happens.
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On February 19 2014 10:13 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 09:21 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On February 19 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 19 2014 08:03 Zealously wrote:On February 19 2014 07:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 19 2014 07:43 Zealously wrote:On February 19 2014 07:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 19 2014 07:36 sharkie wrote:On February 19 2014 07:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 19 2014 07:07 stuchiu wrote:
[quote]
At most there are 11 players in the world not in the WCS KR system that could play at the Code S level: Stardust, ForGG, Hero, Jaedong, Polt, Taeja, San, Jjakji, MC, MMA and Bomber.
Even then I'd argue neither MMA nor Bomber could have gotten to Code S this season anyway.
GSL is still the epitome of skill. Are you actually saying Innovation and Flash didn't get into this Code S because of skill? Actually? Like actually? On top of that you're equating WCS KR system with Code S, which isn't the same thing at all. It's possible for WCS KR to have almost all of the best players, but Code S not to. In fact... it is... not only possible... but... probable. Yes, Innovation and Flash were the inferior players in their groups. This guy! Fun fact. Did you know that if we buffed Zerglings to have 200 HP each, no Terran or Protoss would ever be the superior player in a group with Zerg players ever again? Did you know that making weird insinuations doesn't make it any less clear that you (seem to) think Flash and Innovation only lost because Terran is UP? You win this round. edit: then again you are a Mod, and Mods are obviously favored vs. posters. I hope you don't back out of a discussion because you think I'd ban you for disagreeing =/ Not at all, TL mods are awesome. But you basically nailed it -- I do think that Terran is, to oversimplify, UP -- so there's not a lot more I can say that'll be constructive. The point was brought up that Code S is the epitome of SC2 skill, and I think that was a lot more true in 2013 seasons 1-3 (including OSL) than 2014 s1, athough Season 3 was already beginning to decline IMO. That was the most balanced race distribution we've ever had in GSL (iirc) and the games were top notch. To see what is in my mind a stark regression is very disheartening given how long each season lasts. Innovation to me is a benchmark macro Terran player, like Rain is for Protoss.* He has proven that he has by far some of the best mechanics in the world, but okay-to-terrible ability to improvise and react to opponents. That to me does not spell "guaranteed finals contender" but it does spell "guaranteed top 16." If he doesn't make it to top 16, something's seriously off, because there should always be a viable standard way to play the game. No NHL team spends more time practicing against a given opponent team than they do practicing their own team synergy. The further behind he falls, the more is off with the game. Obviously that doesn't take into account the fact that he himself may be in a slump, but his losses in Code A and Cologne don't tell me that he's in a (noticeable) slump, they tell me that he has to play off his opponent more than ever, and he's failing to do that as he always has. If someone like Maru or sOs or hyvaa ( ) wants to get into his head and destroy him from the inside out, that's cool. But when every Protoss gets to be sOs vs. Innovation, that's some copyright infringement shit going on. * it's tougher for Rain because of PvP. I really feel for the guy. But game isn't about macro only. Which is exactly why I said "That to me does not spell 'guaranteed finals contender' but it does spell 'guaranteed top 16.'" Because the game is not about macro only. But it should be about macro enough that one of the top 5 strongest mechanical players in the world should have a guaranteed spot in the top 16. Right now TvP isn't about macro at all unless you're ForGG, Polt, playing against Rain, or outclassing your opponent (and even then not necessarily). Edit: hyperbole probably isn't the best way to get this point across, but I have to run, so hopefully you'll see what I meant.
Except when the map pool is extremely favorable to aggressive early game strategies it isn't very surprising that Innovation got knocked out early on. Not to mention it's pretty much been established that 2 rax reactor expand build is absolutely terrible against 2 base blink but Innovation decided to do this on Polar Night which happens to be a great map for 2base blink. Zest did a great job preparing specifically for his opponent, and did some tricky things. And herO is arguably the best Protoss in the world right now (according to Aligulac he is #1 P in the world) who has been destroying pretty much everybody since the end of 2013. Sorry buddy but no one is guaranteed a spot in Code S, and Innovation has been playing pretty poorly for quite awhile now, so he's probably not the greatest person to base your view of the games success, or the strength of Code S, on how well his results have been recently.
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On February 19 2014 06:42 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 06:39 boxerfred wrote:On February 19 2014 06:38 The_Templar wrote:On February 19 2014 06:37 boxerfred wrote:On February 19 2014 06:37 Darkhorse wrote:On February 19 2014 06:36 boxerfred wrote:On February 19 2014 06:35 nkr wrote:
Naniwa has always been arrogant and an asshole butyou get away with it when you are the best. Kinda like IdrA. Just that they're both far from being the best best foreigner at various times. Agreed on Idra, never on Naniwa Naniwa was the best foreigner in November-December 2013 at the least Since when does that count as a period of dominance? especially since he was never the best because of his awesome skill, but rather because there was just noone except scarlett do ever challenge him. the jinro/idra/huk/stephano times are basically over. naniwa can't fill the gap. It was pretty obvious Naniwa was the best foreigner, especially with Scarlett's hole in ZvP. In terms of being challenged, not sure where you're going with that or how that matters. If you think 2 months is nothing Innovation was the best player in the world for just two months, Dear maybe 1 month, TaeJa a month and a half or so.
Yeah. Naniwa is not overrated.
He just defeats himself. He did that against Bunny. All games yesterday looked similar - Naniwa intentionally breaking his head against the wall using extremely aggressive builds. Painful to watch.
It's up to him, if he will be able to fix his mindset. I feel like this community actually doesn't help it. Who is the best foreigner if not Naniwa? Without Naniwa, in the last two stacked tournaments (RoG & IEM Cologne) there was no foreigner in top8, in IEM Sao Paulo TLO reached top4 (just because there was only one Korean on his way).
Get real. Naniwa is the best foreigner by far since over a half a year. It's sad, that the best foreigner is so inconsistent and self-defeating. He needs to keep working on his mentality and receive support from the community. New talents appearing in the foreigner scene would also help.
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On February 19 2014 20:47 pms wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 06:42 The_Templar wrote:On February 19 2014 06:39 boxerfred wrote:On February 19 2014 06:38 The_Templar wrote:On February 19 2014 06:37 boxerfred wrote:On February 19 2014 06:37 Darkhorse wrote:On February 19 2014 06:36 boxerfred wrote:On February 19 2014 06:35 nkr wrote:
Naniwa has always been arrogant and an asshole butyou get away with it when you are the best. Kinda like IdrA. Just that they're both far from being the best best foreigner at various times. Agreed on Idra, never on Naniwa Naniwa was the best foreigner in November-December 2013 at the least Since when does that count as a period of dominance? especially since he was never the best because of his awesome skill, but rather because there was just noone except scarlett do ever challenge him. the jinro/idra/huk/stephano times are basically over. naniwa can't fill the gap. It was pretty obvious Naniwa was the best foreigner, especially with Scarlett's hole in ZvP. In terms of being challenged, not sure where you're going with that or how that matters. If you think 2 months is nothing Innovation was the best player in the world for just two months, Dear maybe 1 month, TaeJa a month and a half or so. Yeah. Naniwa is not overrated. He just defeats himself. He did that against Bunny. All games yesterday looked similar - Naniwa intentionally breaking his head against the wall using extremely aggressive builds. Painful to watch. It's up to him, if he will be able to fix his mindset. I feel like this community actually doesn't help it. Who is the best foreigner if not Naniwa? Without Naniwa, in the last two stacked tournaments (RoG & IEM Cologne) there was no foreigner in top8, in IEM Sao Paulo TLO reached top4 (just because there was only one Korean on his way). Get real. Naniwa is the best foreigner by far since over a half a year. It's sad, that the best foreigner is so inconsistent and self-defeating. He needs to keep working on his mentality and receive support from the community. New talents appearing in the foreigner scene would also help.
Well, anyway. I guess I'm too dramatic. Naniwa posted this in his fanclub 1 month ago:
"hi guys ! sorry for the late update. ill write here and in my blog a bit more thoroughly ^ Lately ive been really depressed about things that i rather not share in public but i am working on fixing them which lead me to have quite bad practice results lately and that shakes my confidence obviously . that plus all the drama at the same time and some other bad news regarding my team is making me really sad at the moment. But never the less i will come back stronger eventually so i guess all i ask is that you remember that im human too ^ As of right now in terms of my own plans there's korea plans and there's living on my own in sweden plans aswell both of which i find nice because i really feel i need a change in my life right now so that i can continue gaming alot of people really think its easy to be a foreigner pro and i guess this bothers me a litlte bit, sure if you dont care about results and you only want to stream then its a piece of cake but if you really want to win and try to better your game all the time it can be super frustrating when you have subpar practice possibilitys compared to the korean players who you have to play in tournaments. basically i guess all im saying is that i feel alot of pressure and stress etc etc. but oh well ill find a way to cope ! Sorry for saying so many different things in this post but my head is a mess right now , I do however want you guys to know that i check this thread quite regularly and i do appriciate your support "
This explains a lot. I hope you'll recover Nani! Best of luck!
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United States97277 Posts
imagine if this liquibet was worth points
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/liquibet2/showgraph.php?liquibet=53)
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On February 19 2014 21:19 Shellshock wrote:imagine if this liquibet was worth points
wow, that would have been good for ~30 people. Probably wouldn't have changed that much though.
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On February 20 2014 00:33 jakethesnake wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 21:19 Shellshock wrote:imagine if this liquibet was worth points wow, that would have been good for ~30 people. Probably wouldn't have changed that much though.
I would've bet MC and Bunny had I remembered to bet in the first place. xD
\o/
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On February 20 2014 01:06 Godwrath wrote:
No group B LR ?
Group B is tomorrow
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Poland3772 Posts
On February 19 2014 21:17 pms wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 20:47 pms wrote:On February 19 2014 06:42 The_Templar wrote:On February 19 2014 06:39 boxerfred wrote:On February 19 2014 06:38 The_Templar wrote:On February 19 2014 06:37 boxerfred wrote:On February 19 2014 06:37 Darkhorse wrote:On February 19 2014 06:36 boxerfred wrote:On February 19 2014 06:35 nkr wrote:
Naniwa has always been arrogant and an asshole butyou get away with it when you are the best. Kinda like IdrA. Just that they're both far from being the best best foreigner at various times. Agreed on Idra, never on Naniwa Naniwa was the best foreigner in November-December 2013 at the least Since when does that count as a period of dominance? especially since he was never the best because of his awesome skill, but rather because there was just noone except scarlett do ever challenge him. the jinro/idra/huk/stephano times are basically over. naniwa can't fill the gap. It was pretty obvious Naniwa was the best foreigner, especially with Scarlett's hole in ZvP. In terms of being challenged, not sure where you're going with that or how that matters. If you think 2 months is nothing Innovation was the best player in the world for just two months, Dear maybe 1 month, TaeJa a month and a half or so. Yeah. Naniwa is not overrated. He just defeats himself. He did that against Bunny. All games yesterday looked similar - Naniwa intentionally breaking his head against the wall using extremely aggressive builds. Painful to watch. It's up to him, if he will be able to fix his mindset. I feel like this community actually doesn't help it. Who is the best foreigner if not Naniwa? Without Naniwa, in the last two stacked tournaments (RoG & IEM Cologne) there was no foreigner in top8, in IEM Sao Paulo TLO reached top4 (just because there was only one Korean on his way). Get real. Naniwa is the best foreigner by far since over a half a year. It's sad, that the best foreigner is so inconsistent and self-defeating. He needs to keep working on his mentality and receive support from the community. New talents appearing in the foreigner scene would also help. Well, anyway. I guess I'm too dramatic.
Please don't get offended but with nickname pms being dramatic sounds just right.
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On February 20 2014 01:07 Lorning wrote:Group B is tomorrow
So the WCS web lied to me 
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EPT
