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On January 17 2014 22:28 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 21:55 Kasaraki wrote:
Daedalus is funny because it just goes against their own racial design. It's so odd, the map seems made in complete obliviousness with regards to how the early game works. But they designed both things, so how does that happen?
"Imbalanced" maps can be cool though, like rush maps or something with unusual mechanics. I'd like to see more unusual maps in general, but Daedalus isn't exactly the way to go (Even disregarding the open natural, the entire middle is just flat with a very small amount of obstacles) because they want to see if people work something out ? you have to test boundaries and if people don't want to test, then you have to force them. I like the map and how different Protoss plays on it. The best part, you only face Zergs most of the time on this map.
It's fine having a map like this on ladder, but having it in competitive rotation, especially in systems that don't have a vetoes like Code A is just straight wrong. These are players lives at stake in these competitions, their careers. It is so heavily favored for Zerg it's not even funny, in all non-mirror matchups. There is a reason every Zerg picks this map in PvZ and most of the time in TvZ. It forces the opposing race to take extreme risks just to compete on even ground, and that's a travesty. Keep it no the ladder but don't make it available for competitive play until it's actually tested. Same goes for Heavy Rain. PvT on that map is just ridiculous, as seen in that game Fantasy vs Super, there was just no possible way for Fantasy to win that game even though he did some decent damage to Super's economy and scouted everything that was going on. Super just fakes a blink all-in and contains with Force Fields and blink stalkers while macroing up at home. Either that or he goes straight for blink and kills him. there's nothing terran can do on that map in that situation except die.
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well this vod system is absolute garbage
cant even change quality from source to 720p and source never runs smoothly
does anybody have a way around this?
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People defending Daedulus should be sterilized in the interests of evolution. Every single zerg has picked daedulus as their maps and their win ratio on it is near 100%. I don't think a zerg has dropped a map on it in the first week of Code A. Progamers in Korea only have 3 shots a year at the GSL and they were given a huge disadvantage by Daedulus, a poorly tested, blizzard-made monstrosity of a map. You think anyone that loves the game can really take it seriously as an Esport when Blizzard treats the game so badly? This is all on the shoulders of David Kim who said they wanted to increase map diversity. Yeah, get Kespa mapmakers and fire your own guys. At the same time, please just resign and let someone better take your place Dayvee.
And has been shown by Yongwha versus Flash on Heavy Rain, PvT is a literal shitfest. All Yongwha did was spam photon overcharge and timewarps continuously for 4 minutes from 8-12:00 until flash finally pulled scv's. It may be balanced but it's the same bullshit coinflip balance of broodlord infestors. Hero spellcaster units buy one race all the time in the world leaving only a tiny window of opportunity for one race to do a timing or else they die to unbeatable deathball. Terrans were all raped in basically the same way by protoss the last week of Code A.
Why they thought having a hero unit that had abilities that last so long you can chain them constantly with a ridiculuos site range of 13 and that can fly and get free scouts is absurd. They tried to bandaid PvP and ZvP and those matchups are still terrible and they ruined PvT as well. Just go watch league of legends if you want hero units. At least you get more variety.
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
daedalus record:
Record: TvZ: 1-3 (25%) | ZvP: 5-3 (62.5%) | PvT: 3-0 (100%)
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
When it debuted, Whirlwind was considered the worst map in the pool due to its size and base layout. To be fair, it started out terribly. But over time players began to understand how to play on the map, one of the first enlightening games being Ryung vs DRG. Without a doubt it has been one of the best maps we've had, if only because of the amount of great games it has provided. As an objective measure, it's hard to argue against a map that routinely results in good games. It had the most games in the Best Games of 2013.
We always complain when map pools become stale and don't change, and when the changes are basically the same as the old maps. Daedalus might suck, but without maps that try to change things up, we will never know nor understand the limits and possibilities of map design. Unfortunately, the masses are quick to call for a map's death, even when the same disgruntled voices scream for change.
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On January 20 2014 12:54 opterown wrote:
daedalus record:
Record: TvZ: 1-3 (25%) | ZvP: 5-3 (62.5%) | PvT: 3-0 (100%)
So zergs are 75% on the map and Protoss 100% against terran. Seems fair.
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On January 20 2014 13:22 lichter wrote:
When it debuted, Whirlwind was considered the worst map in the pool due to its size and base layout. To be fair, it started out terribly. But over time players began to understand how to play on the map, one of the first enlightening games being Ryung vs DRG. Without a doubt it has been one of the best maps we've had, if only because of the amount of great games it has provided. As an objective measure, it's hard to argue against a map that routinely results in good games. It had the most games in the Best Games of 2013.
We always complain when map pools become stale and don't change, and when the changes are basically the same as the old maps. Daedalus might suck, but without maps that try to change things up, we will never know nor understand the limits and possibilities of map design. Unfortunately, the masses are quick to call for a map's death, even when the same disgruntled voices scream for change.
Well whirlwind was not very good in WOL and was a much better map in HOTS. Travel distance was more of an issue on huge maps with WOL mechanics. At any rate, Daedulus still sucks hard and will definitely not improve. The new Proleague maps looks pretty fun. Much better than any of the new blizzard-made ladder maps. Given Blizzard's poor track record, I think they should just stop making their own maps. Their success rate is piss-poor.
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
On January 20 2014 13:43 Diogenes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 12:54 opterown wrote:
daedalus record:
Record: TvZ: 1-3 (25%) | ZvP: 5-3 (62.5%) | PvT: 3-0 (100%) So zergs are 75% on the map and Protoss 100% against terran. Seems fair.
and there are less than ten games lol, don't draw joke conclusions like you are doing what the fuck lol
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On January 20 2014 13:46 Diogenes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 13:22 lichter wrote:
When it debuted, Whirlwind was considered the worst map in the pool due to its size and base layout. To be fair, it started out terribly. But over time players began to understand how to play on the map, one of the first enlightening games being Ryung vs DRG. Without a doubt it has been one of the best maps we've had, if only because of the amount of great games it has provided. As an objective measure, it's hard to argue against a map that routinely results in good games. It had the most games in the Best Games of 2013.
We always complain when map pools become stale and don't change, and when the changes are basically the same as the old maps. Daedalus might suck, but without maps that try to change things up, we will never know nor understand the limits and possibilities of map design. Unfortunately, the masses are quick to call for a map's death, even when the same disgruntled voices scream for change. Well whirlwind was not very good in WOL and was a much better map in HOTS. Travel distance was more of an issue on huge maps with WOL mechanics. At any rate, Daedulus still sucks hard and will definitely not improve. The new Proleague maps looks pretty fun. Much better than any of the new blizzard-made ladder maps. Given Blizzard's poor track record, I think they should just stop making their own maps. Their success rate is piss-poor.
If you look at early HoTS winrates for Whirlwind (Code B was the first offline to use it in HoTS) you will also see that it was fairly lopsided in TvZ (38~%) and PvT (60~%). However by the end of its life those winrates normalized to around 46% and 49% respectively. So no HoTS didn't magically cure Whirlwind. It took the players to figure out how to play on it.
Of course, I'm not defending Daedalus. I do think it is a strange map and it's unlikely to work out. But there is much to gain from experimenting with maps. Now we know an easy to take third base does not compensate for a difficult natural for P and T vs Z. Map making is an evolving process, and without potential failures such as Deadalus (who knows, it might still work out somehow) we'd never move out of maps that look identical to Daybreak or Whirlwind.
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You know, maybe one of the issues is simply the way maps work in GSL, with players allowed to pick a map. Granted, I don't know if pre-determined maps is better or worse in general, but for something likes Daedalus, experimenting with it would look less silly if it wasn't going to be the 1st pick of Z vs P in almost every case, but instead could randomly be part of maps in a BoX series.
Also I'm genuinely curious to see how things develop on Daedalus. :o It's just fun to see how players deal with the map, isn't it? I'm way more interested in Daedalus build orders than I would be on Standard Map version 3.0. I guess we should just be happy they are experimenting, instead of worrying too much about the specifics of the map.
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EPT
