EPTWhy do IEM and MLG (now NASL) have to loose their brand for WCS and korean leagues don't have to?
[OSL] RO16 Day 1 WCS Korea Season 2 2013 - Page 99
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
Why do IEM and MLG (now NASL) have to loose their brand for WCS and korean leagues don't have to? | ||
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edgeOut
United States945 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:02 Douillos wrote: Why don't we take the problem the other way round. Why do IEM and MLG (now NASL) have to loose their brand for WCS and korean leagues don't have to? Cause MLG and IEM have their own tournaments intact, WCS is just extra work and bonus for them, their brands have more exposure. GSL and OSL basically handed over their own tournaments to follow Blizzard's lead, they have to remain their name in the tournament, otherwise, they have nothing in their brands left. | ||
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:02 Douillos wrote: Why don't we take the problem the other way round. Why do IEM and MLG (now NASL) have to loose their brand for WCS and korean leagues don't have to? Yes, why don't we take the problem the other way around? Why do IEM and MLG (now NASL) not facilitate to (arguably much better) map pools and formats of Korean leagues? Imo, just take the best out of OSL and GSL (like OSL Ro16 seems to be better format than the GSL one, while Bo1 for Ro32 was worse than Bo3 of GSL) and make all of them take that format, with map pool provided by Korean side. Much better. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
On July 02 2013 21:48 ReDeYe wrote: + Show Spoiler + "Newcomers" - Interesting terminology to explain someone who has spent the best part of 11 years in esports at the highest level. Newcomer to StarCraft? Relatively I guess, although I've been on the fringes of SC since 2005. I'm also well aware of the history of OSL having worked with OGN since 2005 on a regular basis too, but that's not the argument here, so let me qualify some of it, which obviously can't be understood or explained properly in 140 charachters. The WCS is a global competition run by partners in each region. I understand the OSL and GSL have history and I don't want to disrespect that history, but WCS is what the entire competition is now. My issues are around wanting StarCraft to appeal to as wide an audience as possible as I fully believe those who are exposed to it, will love the players, the game and the incredible community, ultimately leading to an even larger community. To capture those however, there are many things that have to happen in order to help improve the entry for casual viewers. The key ingredients to successful esports and tournaments over the last 11 years of watching them are format and consistency. If we establish that the basic thought behind the WCS is to bring all leagues, all players and fans together under one umbrella and (despite reservations over this) we accept this as the premise, it becomes a priority to ensure that no matter who runs each region, the map pools, the rules, the format and the nomenclature used is consistent. This is the essence of the argument. Right now, the rules are inconsistent, the map pools different and the way it all plays out is intrinsically different in each region. I totally get OSL and GSL have history and I don't want to remove that, but it's time to move on. This is WCS and it's not the same as GSL (although mirrors this more closely perhaps) and it's not OSL. Not only the casual viewer is unsure about it all on a global scale right now, but it seems a lot of people who have followed SC for a long time are confused about it too and it's not surprising. Keeping heritage in esports is super important, you won't hear any argument from me on that. WCS is very special and should be given the prestige it deserves for the time, effort and money being put in by a lot of people to raise the bar for SC. I understand this, but the brand OSL (GSL for that matter too) will reward the community with ease of access for the Korean audience. Isn't the WCS KR broadcast created with Koreans in mind as a first priority. It is the country with the most integrated culture for this type of sport and cultivating this area should be the biggest thing at the moment. Calling it WCS KR OSL or Code S doesn't change the fact that it's part of the WCS branding, since OSL and GSL are under it. The fact that rules and map pools are different is less than optimal, but I believe that testing the format of OSL (or adapting it with Bo3 in Ro32 (no I don't want this, but it seems like the majority does) will go a long way. It's a proven format and does not ruin hype or this story line everyone is so damn caught up in. It merely breaks the Ro16 up in different stages. Stage one being the two first weeks with the intro to the groups, stage two being the second matches (which might result in one knockout or an advancement) and then ending it with the match that matters. People that have spectated for a long time, and people that understand how a partnership works should understand that WCS is basically a partnership, or a union, between the leagues so we get a more coherent structure to the scene, but understanding that WCS as a whole is divided by subgroups that are named differently should not be hard for people with the least amount of brain capacity. It is merely WCS KR OSL, or WCS KR GSL Code S. EU and AM, to be fair, have no actual history, even under the WCS branding. WCS Korea is a result of a partnership, and it should represent that. It is not a competition solely for WCS. It is also the great pillars in the scene called GSL Code S/A and OnGameNet StarLeague. Why not treat it for what it is? I think EU, AM and GOM next season should look at one map pool (please abuse the Korean (or foreign TLMC guys) map makers, they are fucking amazing), A best of both worlds of the OSL and GSL format and a ruleset that Blizzard creates. I hope you understand. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:05 edgeOut wrote: Cause MLG and IEM have their own tournaments intact, WCS is just extra work and bonus for them, their brands have more exposure. GSL and OSL basically handed over their own tournaments to follow Blizzard's lead, they have to remain their name in the tournament, otherwise, they have nothing in their brands left. I don't recall IEM doing anything else than WCS EU... same for MLG as long as WCS AM was running... | ||
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evaniss
53 Posts
On July 02 2013 21:46 Tobblish wrote: South Korea have a population of 50milion+. Sweden can average over 25k viewers on SVT24 02:00 in the night because of how they measure TV ratings. as far as i know about korean viewership in Starleague 2009 season, it was Average viewership (13-29 year old men) 1.11%, (Up to 2.12% viewership, 38.4% share) If compare 2009 and now, i guess this OSL viewership could be near to 0.5~0.7% ??? so i think it could be much more than 70k viewers (you know koreans watch OSL with mobile devices and web based too) it is just my idea and it's hard to calculate how many number of viewers but i think it could be way over 70k in average viewership | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:07 Ammanas wrote: Yes, why don't we take the problem the other way around? Why do IEM and MLG (now NASL) not facilitate to (arguably much better) map pools and formats of Korean leagues? Imo, just take the best out of OSL and GSL (like OSL Ro16 seems to be better format than the GSL one, while Bo1 for Ro32 was worse than Bo3 of GSL) and make all of them take that format, with map pool provided by Korean side. Much better. IIRC this is what is happening? WCS EU and AM are GSL format... | ||
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mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
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edgeOut
United States945 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:08 Douillos wrote: I don't recall IEM doing anything else than WCS EU... same for MLG as long as WCS AM was running... Oh, man, they only do weekend tournaments, they can't do both simultaneously even if they desperately want to. | ||
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:09 Douillos wrote: IIRC this is what is happening? WCS EU and AM are GSL format... Yes and no. Yes they are for premier league, they are not for challenger league/up and downs. And they for sure are not taking their map pools, which is by far the silliest thing they have done so far in WCS... GSL format, while OK by itself, is not the best format available, and I hope that for 2014 Blizz, GOM and foreign partners will look into this style of Ro16, which is arguably better (not only because of format, but for example also because of fixed maps). | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:13 edgeOut wrote: Oh, man, they only do weekend tournaments, they can't do both simultaneously even if they desperately want to. The point is, Korean leagues already have a special status as it is. I don't get how people get so defensive when someone comes up and critisizes... | ||
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therabit
795 Posts
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:15 Ammanas wrote: Yes and no. Yes they are for premier league, they are not for challenger league/up and downs. And they for sure are not taking their map pools, which is by far the silliest thing they have done so far in WCS... GSL format, while OK by itself, is not the best format available, and I hope that for 2014 Blizz, GOM and foreign partners will look into this style of Ro16, which is arguably better (not only because of format, but for example also because of fixed maps). I'm not sure everyone would agree with you on the format... IMO a lot of people are defending it in this thread because a) people love novelty and the GSL format is everywhere nowadays b) OSL brings out the elitist hipster shit out of all of us. Let's wait a few weeks before saying that OSL format is "da best in da world"... I would like to see how many of the "omg OSL sooooo good" people were the same shitting all over LR threads with the "OMG Bo1 fuuuuu OSL never gonna tune in again". | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On July 02 2013 21:46 Tobblish wrote: South Korea have a population of 50milion+. Sweden can average over 25k viewers on SVT24 02:00 in the night because of how they measure TV ratings. I know perfectly well how large their population is and how the measurement is done in Sweden. Did you happen to miss when I wrote fringe programs? If you look at that as well as other channels (I choose svt because they are the largest and EVERYONE have access to them so it's the best possible scenario here). The reason I asked in the first place was because I was curious but depending on how large the Korean channel is and how popular the game is as well as other factors like lead ins, there's no guarantee that the numbers surpass the stream numbers by great margins. If the stream numbers mentioned by other is correct that's great but it doesn't change my point. (And you can't have looked at a lot of number if you think the 25k comment is a valid point against that...). | ||
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fuzzylogic44
Canada2633 Posts
On July 02 2013 21:48 ReDeYe wrote: "Newcomers" - Interesting terminology to explain someone who has spent the best part of 11 years in esports at the highest level. Newcomer to StarCraft? Relatively I guess, although I've been on the fringes of SC since 2005. I'm also well aware of the history of OSL having worked with OGN since 2005 on a regular basis too, but that's not the argument here, so let me qualify some of it, which obviously can't be understood or explained properly in 140 charachters. The WCS is a global competition run by partners in each region. I understand the OSL and GSL have history and I don't want to disrespect that history, but WCS is what the entire competition is now. My issues are around wanting StarCraft to appeal to as wide an audience as possible as I fully believe those who are exposed to it, will love the players, the game and the incredible community, ultimately leading to an even larger community. To capture those however, there are many things that have to happen in order to help improve the entry for casual viewers. The key ingredients to successful esports and tournaments over the last 11 years of watching them are format and consistency. If we establish that the basic thought behind the WCS is to bring all leagues, all players and fans together under one umbrella and (despite reservations over this) we accept this as the premise, it becomes a priority to ensure that no matter who runs each region, the map pools, the rules, the format and the nomenclature used is consistent. This is the essence of the argument. Right now, the rules are inconsistent, the map pools different and the way it all plays out is intrinsically different in each region. I totally get OSL and GSL have history and I don't want to remove that, but it's time to move on. This is WCS and it's not the same as GSL (although mirrors this more closely perhaps) and it's not OSL. Not only the casual viewer is unsure about it all on a global scale right now, but it seems a lot of people who have followed SC for a long time are confused about it too and it's not surprising. Keeping heritage in esports is super important, you won't hear any argument from me on that. WCS is very special and should be given the prestige it deserves for the time, effort and money being put in by a lot of people to raise the bar for SC. The problem is you're just wrong. Part of the deal is that OSL and GSL go on within the WCS framework. They aren't supposed to be erased. And I for one enjoy different formats, map pools etc. Homogeneity is a good way to make the scene boring. | ||
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isaachukfan
Canada785 Posts
Good for first to, glad to see his skill is finally starting to show in offline korean tournaments | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:07 Ammanas wrote: Yes, why don't we take the problem the other way around? Why do IEM and MLG (now NASL) not facilitate to (arguably much better) map pools and formats of Korean leagues? Imo, just take the best out of OSL and GSL (like OSL Ro16 seems to be better format than the GSL one, while Bo1 for Ro32 was worse than Bo3 of GSL) and make all of them take that format, with map pool provided by Korean side. Much better. Eh, the whole WCS format is basically Korean (GSL). The problem isn't with IEM or MLG, it's with GOM and OGN. | ||
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fuzzylogic44
Canada2633 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:08 Wintex wrote: I understand this, but the brand OSL (GSL for that matter too) will reward the community with ease of access for the Korean audience. Isn't the WCS KR broadcast created with Koreans in mind as a first priority. It is the country with the most integrated culture for this type of sport and cultivating this area should be the biggest thing at the moment. Calling it WCS KR OSL or Code S doesn't change the fact that it's part of the WCS branding, since OSL and GSL are under it. The fact that rules and map pools are different is less than optimal, but I believe that testing the format of OSL (or adapting it with Bo3 in Ro32 (no I don't want this, but it seems like the majority does) will go a long way. It's a proven format and does not ruin hype or this story line everyone is so damn caught up in. It merely breaks the Ro16 up in different stages. Stage one being the two first weeks with the intro to the groups, stage two being the second matches (which might result in one knockout or an advancement) and then ending it with the match that matters. People that have spectated for a long time, and people that understand how a partnership works should understand that WCS is basically a partnership, or a union, between the leagues so we get a more coherent structure to the scene, but understanding that WCS as a whole is divided by subgroups that are named differently should not be hard for people with the least amount of brain capacity. It is merely WCS KR OSL, or WCS KR GSL Code S. EU and AM, to be fair, have no actual history, even under the WCS branding. WCS Korea is a result of a partnership, and it should represent that. It is not a competition solely for WCS. It is also the great pillars in the scene called GSL Code S/A and OnGameNet StarLeague. Perfectly stated. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:32 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: Khaldor kind of changed his mind, he used to hold a different speech regarding the matter. https://twitter.com/Khaldor/status/330908063638908928 Well, what he said is basically true (in that tweet). Code A is the Korean Challenger League. Code A is a brand in this community. It's a preliminary for the hardest league in the world. ODT works the same way. Gotta stick to their brands. AM CL and EU CL are not quite the same as KR CL or each other. Code A is just a different name for KR CL. | ||
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