EPT[Code S] Ro4 Day 2 WCS Korea Season 1 2013 - Page 98
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Coolness53
United States668 Posts
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
If its related to TvZ, you can throw leenocks name in there. | ||
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GWdeathscythe
Brazil1091 Posts
On May 24 2013 01:57 Coolness53 wrote: Monday, 29 April 2013 Soulkey beat Innovation in SPL. Not saying Soulkey is going to win. He does have a chance is all I am saying. And that was an incredible game by Soulkey, constantly denying Bogus 3rd (IIRC) and with a solid harass defence. It will be an amazing finals. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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vesicular
United States1311 Posts
Should be a really good finals regardless of who wins. Both players much deserved to be there. | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On May 24 2013 02:00 LighT. wrote: If its related to TvZ, you can throw leenocks name in there. LeeNock got his ass kicked 3-0 in MLG iirc | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On May 24 2013 01:31 Tibbroar wrote: To be fair, Flash has proven he can go toe to toe with Innovation numerous times, and is actually winning their head to head 5-3, he just happened to lose this GSL. That being said, I want Mvp to get robot arms and prove he's still the greatest SC2 player ever. >_< I wrote a paragraph on page 95 about MVP that you should check out. Even in MVPs prime MMA ties in head to head matches. So even if MVP went "robot arms" in accordance with my previous paragraph on pg 95, I don't believe he would have been the greatest SC2 player after the Kespa transition. | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
Martial Arts Games. He did lose the set though 1-2 not referring to MLG | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
Symbol got rightly crushed!! At last a code S finals actually worthy of it's name, with a great possibility of the finalists being the best contenders out of everyone, so long since we had one of those! I'm fine with either of them taking it, but I hope Bogus, man prevails. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On May 24 2013 03:05 BlazeFury01 wrote: I wrote a paragraph on page 95 about MVP that you should check out. Even in MVPs prime MMA leads in head to head victories. So even if MVP went "robot arms" in accordance with my previous paragraph on pg 95, I don't believe he would have been the greatest SC2 player after the Kespa transition. Turn leads the head-to-head against Innovation, and Bear against RorO. Every player, almost without exception, will have one player or more against whom they have a losing record. That doesn't, or at least it shouldn't, diminish their accomplishments. I think, as the only four-time GSL champion, having a losing record against a two-time GSL champion should at the very least be considered acceptable, when he leads the head-to-head against a bunch of other GSL champions. | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
To be honest theres a chance Symbol may have even beaten Innovation had he continued with his 2 base all ins. However, he decided to do a semi all in off 3 bases while taking a fourth on Whirlwind which gave him the loss. After he lost to Innovation in the first game, he started doing primarily 2 base all ins which he went 2-2 in, so if he continued doing that I say theres still maybe a 50% chance he would have won. | ||
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On May 24 2013 03:15 Zealously wrote: Turn leads the head-to-head against Innovation, and Bear against RorO. Every player, almost without exception, will have one player or more against whom they have a losing record. That doesn't, or at least it shouldn't, diminish their accomplishments. I think, as the only four-time GSL champion, having a losing record against a two-time GSL champion should at the very least be considered acceptable, when he leads the head-to-head against a bunch of other GSL champions. I think it's all in context. Mvp's accomplishments were brilliant and astounding but it's always going to be downplayed. There was no SK, Bogus, Flash, Roro or Rain during his runs because they were all busy playing sc:bw for the last PL. Thus he wasnt facing the fierciest competition. I highly doub teven in Mvp's prime that he'd be the top player at the given moment, although he'd likely be a top 10 contender for sure. Thats not much to say, Mvp's reign is still something for the record books | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
this series was amazing. between the actual games, Innovation's abilities and Tastosis' casting, including a very casual f-bomb from Tasteless which he commented on just as casually like half an hour later, i was thoroughly entertained. also when Artosis said his brother showed him his balls and Tasteless giggled like a child. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On May 24 2013 03:26 LighT. wrote: I think it's all in context. Mvp's accomplishments were brilliant and astounding but it's always going to be downplayed. There was no SK, Bogus, Flash, Roro or Rain during his runs because they were all busy playing sc:bw for the last PL. Thus he wasnt facing the fierciest competition. I highly doub teven in Mvp's prime that he'd be the top player at the given moment, although he'd likely be a top 10 contender for sure. Thats not much to say, Mvp's reign is still something for the record books I find that logic flawed. You could expand it by saying, that Flash is only good because other genius RTS players are too busy playing a crappy game. Or other genius SC2 players that we barely hear about, are too busy living life and have no time to play, otherwise they would dominate. Perhaps if Kasparov would play SC2 he would be the biggest bonjwa ever. Or who knows who else? In the limit, if every possible combination of human beings played SC2, i bet Flash wouldn't even be in top 1 billion, and Mvp top 1 trillion. But still, Flash's and Mvp's reign are still something for the record books. -_- No one will ever be for the record books by that logic, because there's always the possibility of someone else that isn't playing the game being better. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On May 24 2013 03:15 Zealously wrote: Turn leads the head-to-head against Innovation, and Bear against RorO. Every player, almost without exception, will have one player or more against whom they have a losing record. That doesn't, or at least it shouldn't, diminish their accomplishments. I think, as the only four-time GSL champion, having a losing record against a two-time GSL champion should at the very least be considered acceptable, when he leads the head-to-head against a bunch of other GSL champions. I used the MMA example because of the sample size. Take a look at the sample size between the two from both Korea and Internationally. The sample sizes for your comparisons are only one game lol thus proves it unarguable to the point I was trying to make. I don't diminish or ignore MVPs accomplishments by any means. I just wish that people will stop acting like he could have achieved the same accomplishments had the Kespa players transitioned sooner. I used MMA as an example to show that MVP was not as invincible as a lot of people make him out to be. | ||
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Arnstein
Norway3381 Posts
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Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On May 24 2013 04:35 Apolo wrote: I find that logic flawed. You could expand it by saying, that Flash is only good because other genius RTS players are too busy playing a crappy game. Or other genius SC2 players that we barely hear about, are too busy living life and have no time to play, otherwise they would dominate. Perhaps if Kasparov would play SC2 he would be the biggest bonjwa ever. Or who knows who else? In the limit, if every possible combination of human beings played SC2, i bet Flash wouldn't even be in top 1 billion, and Mvp top 1 trillion. But still, Flash's and Mvp's reign are still something for the record books. -_- No one will ever be for the record books by that logic, because there's always the possibility of someone else that isn't playing the game being better. The difference here is that ex Kespa and Brood War players are more accomplished in the Korean side of SC2 than any pro from any other game. Plus, MVP was the best Kespa player to transition to SC2 at that time. So, it only makes sense to speculate and assume that MVP would not have been as dominant as he was if he was paired against players who have already "proven" that they were either equivalent or better. | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On May 24 2013 04:35 Apolo wrote: I find that logic flawed. You could expand it by saying, that Flash is only good because other genius RTS players are too busy playing a crappy game. Or other genius SC2 players that we barely hear about, are too busy living life and have no time to play, otherwise they would dominate. Perhaps if Kasparov would play SC2 he would be the biggest bonjwa ever. Or who knows who else? In the limit, if every possible combination of human beings played SC2, i bet Flash wouldn't even be in top 1 billion, and Mvp top 1 trillion. But still, Flash's and Mvp's reign are still something for the record books. -_- No one will ever be for the record books by that logic, because there's always the possibility of someone else that isn't playing the game being better. You can go both ways. SC2 and SC1 are vastly different at the same time, similar games. When Mvp reigned, ask yourself who were the top players at that time? What was their stages in terms of growth as an esports player? You end up thinking of MC, DRG, MMA, Nestea, Squirtle, TOP, Polt etc; and in comparison; where are they now? MC = Fringe Code S player DRG = Fringe Coe S player MMA = non-relevant Nestea = sharp decline Squirtle = Solid Code S TOP = Non-relevant Polt = A complete unknown at the moment, somewhere between Code A-S material. But focusing moreso on Mvp's 2011 run, you mostly had TOP, sC, MC, Nestea, Polt, Nada, Boxer, San etc, players I would make a strong argument that while they were revolutionizing the game and strategically brilliant, their mechanics wasnt the topest of tiers. While the very young gens (Leenock, Life, Taeja, Symbol) existed, but were entering the infant stages as an esports players. Within a short period, more than half of these guys have become afterthoughts, from favorites, this is after the KeSPA transition. I repeat, I'm not debating this eSFKespa crap, however, it is something interesting to look at. If Mvp was truly a great player, a god-tier micro/macro player; you can make the assumption that the players who was just a tier below them, should/would be dominating because he's down for the count from wrist injury. This is not the case. INstead of one single player above the top-tier guys of Squirtle/MMA/DRG etc, now you have a whole slew/class of guys above them. This isnt an age factor. Squirtle/DRG/MMA are young players, they still have a long career ahead of them. Mvp being innovatate? Absolutely, he did revolutionze the game and was a brilliant tactician, but at the game at the moment, that alone does not translate to dominance as it might have then. Mvp's top tier mechanics he brought as one of the only a-teamer to transition to sc2, well those mechanics are now the norm expected out of every player and if you were to look at the play the likes of Flash/Innovation, its a step above it. Of course, there's new true answer to this. I think translating they way you interpret it..has sound logic, but not the approach you should be perceiving it from. In that way, I dont believe my argument is really flawed at all. ----- Edit: to add a bit more to it. This is hardly a decline issue amongst the top palyers of 2011-2012 comparing to the top players of 2013 that made them fall off. Not at all. They are still the same players, some of them in better form than they were in 2011-2012 (and it just makes sense to make that assumption outside of a few exceptions ie. Nestea). IF Mvp's wrist problem is solvable through medical treatment, like they did with Flash, who appears to be half machine/half human with surgery now, I'm interested in if he can rise to the top like he did then. My thoughts are, I highly doubt it and if he returns to perfect form, he'd be a top 10 player, nothing more than that. But until he's fully recovered, and up until the point where we have stats/results from different tournaments piling in, we can only speciulate. In that way, there's no right or wrong answer. | ||
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