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2286 Posts
On May 21 2013 22:19 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 22:12 theMagus wrote:On May 21 2013 22:08 neptunusfisk wrote:On May 21 2013 21:50 silentsaint wrote:On May 21 2013 20:36 Valikyr wrote:On May 21 2013 20:30 Musicus wrote:
Tasteless had to call Innovation the best RTS player we've ever seen at least once today :D. Yea lol. Where did the memory of Flash and Nada go  Flash is only the best BW player of all time while at the same time being one of the 3 best terrans in SC2. Tastosis probably just do it to create a "storyline". You have to at least hype a little bit for that. Also, commentators always exageratte like hell to create suspense. But... Innovation is playing so much better than Flash right now. He's lost 3 maps this GSL. (Against Rain and Flash.) okay, innovation is the best rts player of all time. lol. If you assume that the general level of play has been increasing over time (it has) and that SC2 is higher paced and harder to play "perfectly enough" than BW (which it is) and also that Flash is doing his best (which is likely), then it's not a unreasonable statement to claim Innovation being the best ever.
BW is so ridiculously hard to play that everyone makes mistakes. It's forgiving in that manner; the better player can mess up bigtime and then compensate for the rest of the game. In SC2, "playing perfectly" is exactly that - being on key the whole game. Missing one supply depot timing puts you significantly behind and a second of bad micro kills your whole army. SC2 is an easier game, but it is more unforgiving to small mistakes.
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damn I stop after game 3 and didn't expect sOs to give SK one hell of a run. Nice try, at least it wasn't 4-0
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On May 21 2013 20:03 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 19:53 Veroleg wrote:On May 21 2013 19:37 Wintex wrote:On May 21 2013 19:35 Veroleg wrote:On May 21 2013 19:17 Wintex wrote:On May 21 2013 19:14 Veroleg wrote:On May 21 2013 19:05 Wintex wrote:On May 21 2013 19:01 Veroleg wrote:On May 21 2013 18:53 Wintex wrote:
Innovation doesn't really amaze me as much, but his mastery of the basic concepts of matchups is great. His macro is not Bomber level, and micro is not MKP-primetime level, but he knows what to do at all times and knows how to control the game in sick ways. Strongest terran, but I don't see the "unfairness" like when Bomber just has more stuff cause fuck you, or when the micro of a terran just fuckin overcomes the stupidest odds (not because of shitty play from a Z or P)
Soulkey just reads games insanely well. Fuck, it almost blows me away. bomber could not even compete in a much more skillfull game when he wasnt 24+y old. no his macro is not comparable to bogus, i dont know where you would get that idea His macro is superior, to be honest. I'm biased, but he is. Problem is he dies way too often because he doesn't scout, compared to Innovation who is great at it. Or he doesn't perform to his usual standards. nothing of his is superior. he was a bteamer when he was at his peak and now hes 24+. its not close and i dont havea clue where you got this idea from Different game is different. His macro is nothing short of godly. He gets more units out of everything for no apparent reason. Too bad his decision making is WORSE than INnoVation's is. Let's not derail the thread. then dont come up with random statements. yes that was a long time ago, and now hes 24+. just about nobody in the history of sc has been better at 24 than 20. yes im sure bomber went from complete bteamer to better macro and mechanics than a top3 in the world. as i said, where would you even get this idea? im suspecting trolling. a source would be helpful if youre going to keep claiming this You didn't watch StarCraft games with Bomber the last 3 years. Please go away. People have been better after aging (NesTea got to shine), and more. You are claiming a lot without backing your statements either. Multiple second-fourth place finishes, MLG win and a Code A win vs Mvp are no small feats. what do you mean? ive watched sc2 since start. what crazy ideas am i claiming without backing up? why are you listing results? Cause it's obvious how good Bomber is when he doesn't bungle it. The macro is on point. Micro is worse, but his ideas are backed up by macro unmatched. Have you ever analyzed his play or seen it and gone through it, comparing it to others? IT IS INSANE. You are just denying it. INnoVation forgets to macro some times. Arguably, his style is way more micro intensive and perfecting it might be harder. I don't really see that part of godliness, but the other parts are fucking phenomenal. Go watch Bomber versus any protoss. That matchup is a slaughter for him if he gets to the midgame 90% of the time.
Bomber makes the same ridiculous mistakes against Protoss as he does against Zerg.
They do some random cheese or all in, Bomber scouts it and continues to be Bomber building up those 3 CCs like he never scouted at all.
His decision making is absolutely terrible, which is why Bomber always disappoints despite stellar macro and micro. The match against Symbol was embarassing.
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Batisterio-PiB
Brazil219 Posts
On May 22 2013 01:49 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 22:19 neptunusfisk wrote:On May 21 2013 22:12 theMagus wrote:On May 21 2013 22:08 neptunusfisk wrote:On May 21 2013 21:50 silentsaint wrote:On May 21 2013 20:36 Valikyr wrote:On May 21 2013 20:30 Musicus wrote:
Tasteless had to call Innovation the best RTS player we've ever seen at least once today :D. Yea lol. Where did the memory of Flash and Nada go Flash is only the best BW player of all time while at the same time being one of the 3 best terrans in SC2. Tastosis probably just do it to create a "storyline". You have to at least hype a little bit for that. Also, commentators always exageratte like hell to create suspense. But... Innovation is playing so much better than Flash right now. He's lost 3 maps this GSL. (Against Rain and Flash.) okay, innovation is the best rts player of all time. lol. If you assume that the general level of play has been increasing over time (it has) and that SC2 is higher paced and harder to play "perfectly enough" than BW (which it is) and also that Flash is doing his best (which is likely), then it's not a unreasonable statement to claim Innovation being the best ever. BW is so ridiculously hard to play that everyone makes mistakes. It's forgiving in that manner; the better player can mess up bigtime and then compensate for the rest of the game. In SC2, "playing perfectly" is exactly that - being on key the whole game. Missing one supply depot timing puts you significantly behind and a second of bad micro kills your whole army. SC2 is an easier game, but it is more unforgiving to small mistakes.
How can you call Innovation the BEST EVER if he didnt even win a championship. I can name a dozen of players that perform as he does now! Even in SC2, in the 2nd GSL nestea went to the finals without losing a game, you would call that he was the best ever?
Thats nonsense! Innovation is not even a legend yet! To be a legend you have to be on top for at least 2 years. Like Boxer, nada, iloveoov, savior, flash that every match they played they were the clear favorite.
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People still thinking that SC2 in it's current HOTS form isn't insanely skill intensive (yes, even compared to Brood War) really just aren't very good at the game, to be honest.
Innovation is way above any Terran right now, especially against Zerg. He is also much better than Flash, with the skill ceiling in SC2 not even being closed to reached yet.
It honestly surprises me how many people think that Life wouldn't decimated Brood War the way he has been SC2 the last few months, with his insane multitasking he would have easily overtaken Flash within a couple months or at least been on par.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 22 2013 03:30 Figgy wrote:
It honestly surprises me how many people think that Life wouldn't decimated Brood War the way he has been SC2 the last few months, with his insane multitasking he would have easily overtaken Flash within a couple months or at least been on par.
...I don't know man. Zerglings were not NEARLY as good as they are in SC2....
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Batisterio-PiB
Brazil219 Posts
On May 22 2013 03:30 Figgy wrote:
People still thinking that SC2 in it's current HOTS form isn't insanely skill intensive (yes, even compared to Brood War) really just aren't very good at the game, to be honest.
Innovation is way above any Terran right now, especially against Zerg. He is also much better than Flash, with the skill ceiling in SC2 not even being closed to reached yet.
It honestly surprises me how many people think that Life wouldn't decimated Brood War the way he has been SC2 the last few months, with his insane multitasking he would have easily overtaken Flash within a couple months or at least been on par.
Have you played BW and watched Flash playing BW? Life wouldnt take a game of Flash in 1 year of training. BW -> SC2 is much, much easier than SC2 -> BW.
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I challenge anyone to do a serious analysis between the two games. Base your analysis on game states and action spending.
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On May 22 2013 03:30 Figgy wrote:
People still thinking that SC2 in it's current HOTS form isn't insanely skill intensive (yes, even compared to Brood War) really just aren't very good at the game, to be honest.
Innovation is way above any Terran right now, especially against Zerg. He is also much better than Flash, with the skill ceiling in SC2 not even being closed to reached yet.
It honestly surprises me how many people think that Life wouldn't decimated Brood War the way he has been SC2 the last few months, with his insane multitasking he would have easily overtaken Flash within a couple months or at least been on par.
It surprises you because you clearly haven't played Brood War therefore you do not know the difficulty of the game and amount of skill required to play at the highest level.
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Batisterio-PiB
Brazil219 Posts
On May 22 2013 03:48 mishimaBeef wrote:
I challenge anyone to do a serious analysis between the two games. Base your analysis on game states and action spending.
Ok, not a serious analysis, but
- No auto rally to the minerals/gas
- Can place all your buildings in one hotkey (Really hard to attack and macro)
- Only 12 per group (Imagine to control 100 lings?!)
- No smartcast (have to select each caster individually
- Units are dumb (goons, goliath)
- Muta micro (especially vs scourge is ridiculous difficult)
No doubt a much more difficult game to play, but its difficult for both sides
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oh gosh everyone is bias to there favorite game fuck the facts
gg soulkey
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On May 22 2013 03:30 Figgy wrote:
It honestly surprises me how many people think that Life wouldn't decimated Brood War the way he has been SC2 the last few months, with his insane multitasking he would have easily overtaken Flash within a couple months or at least been on par.
You're delusional. He's a patchzerg, in which the patch is called SC2. 3 straight Ro16 performance with the strongest race after proleague players started playing is not as impressive as you make it to be.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
It's an endless circle: the Brood War fans take the stance that no eSF pro would ever have gotten good enough to kiss Flash's shoes, and the SC2 fans (or at the very least those who got into Starcraft via SC2) take the stance that there are several SC2 pros who could have taken the fight to any top player in Brood War, and the discussion goes in a circle, where neither side listens to what the other has to say, from there.
Personally, I'm (cautiously) with the second half. There are a few players in Starcraft 2 (where Life is the most famous and successful) who have shown great potential, but not everyone (Maru) seems to have fully realised that potential. Most Brood War "die-hards" mean to say that Flash is the god of Brood War, and that's something I mostly agree with, but you have to remember that he too came out of nowhere (more or less) and won an OSL in less than a year, smashing strong players in the process. Flash is a rare specimen, naturally, but he himself has stated that he sees himself in Life - who's to say for sure that someone else, be it a SC2-only progamer or someone who never got to play BW professionally, couldn't have shown up and overthrown the old guard in 9 months or so?
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Batisterio-PiB
Brazil219 Posts
In actions
- No auto rally to the minerals/gas
SC2: 2 action (click nexus/make probe), BW: 4 (nexus, probe, (go back to nexus after 20sec), select probe send to mine)
- Can place all your buildings in one hotkey (Really hard to attack and macro)
SC2: to make 10 zea - 11 actions zzzzzzzzz (so easy), BW: select gate-zea x 11 (22 actions + the mouse movement to select each gate)
- Only 12 per group (Imagine to control 100 lings?!)
SC2 - 2 actions (1+right click), bw: select 8 times 12 lings and go back and forth to where you want to send then (no comparison)
- No smartcast (have to select each caster individually)
SC2: F - click 5x
BW: to feedback 5 units fast you would have to make 5 grups with one DA and select then individually to cast feedback
1 - f - click, 2 - f - click 3 - f- click, etc and try to control the rest of the army
- Units are dumb (goons, goliath)
- Muta micro (especially vs scourge is ridiculous difficult)
Micro in BW was so much more special and difficult, nothing more rewarding than destroy a 200 mech army with zea bombs, split goon, storm and go back to the base and click in your gateways as fast as you can to macro!
Good times
User was warned for this post
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On May 22 2013 04:08 Zealously wrote:
It's an endless circle: the Brood War fans take the stance that no eSF pro would ever have gotten good enough to kiss Flash's shoes, and the SC2 fans (or at the very least those who got into Starcraft via SC2) take the stance that there are several SC2 pros who could have taken the fight to any top player in Brood War, and the discussion goes in a circle, where neither side listens to what the other has to say, from there.
Personally, I'm (cautiously) with the second half. There are a few players in Starcraft 2 (where Life is the most famous and successful) who have shown great potential, but not everyone (Maru) seems to have fully realised that potential. Most Brood War "die-hards" mean to say that Flash is the god of Brood War, and that's something I mostly agree with, but you have to remember that he too came out of nowhere (more or less) and won an OSL in less than a year, smashing strong players in the process. Flash is a rare specimen, naturally, but he himself has stated that he sees himself in Life - who's to say for sure that someone else, be it a SC2-only progamer or someone who never got to play BW professionally, couldn't have shown up and overthrown the old guard in 9 months or so?
Yea seriously, it's not like Flash was engineered in a test tube or something, he was just some kid who came in and was really fucking good. And about you guys arguing about how many actions it takes to rally your workers and stuff, it really doesn't matter because your opponent has to play the same game, so the spare actions go to other things to compete with your opponent, if you don't make use of those spare actions then you lose. Nobody is playing SC2 perfectly.
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On May 22 2013 04:01 Batisterio-PiB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 03:48 mishimaBeef wrote:
I challenge anyone to do a serious analysis between the two games. Base your analysis on game states and action spending. Ok, not a serious analysis, but - No auto rally to the minerals/gas - Can place all your buildings in one hotkey (Really hard to attack and macro) - Only 12 per group (Imagine to control 100 lings?!) - No smartcast (have to select each caster individually - Units are dumb (goons, goliath) - Muta micro (especially vs scourge is ridiculous difficult) No doubt a much more difficult game to play, but its difficult for both sides
Hence the game state analysis is needed.
In BW the game state cannot advance as rapidly because of the battles with the interface.
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Battle with interface is unnecessarily negative term, actually this battle of interface made BW what it is now.
The fact that SC1 came with anachronistic mechanics is a bless not a curse, it put down the hegemony of C&C where everything was automated, and created the one of the most (the most?) skill hungry game ever.
I CANNOT imagine BW with SC2 ruleset. Actually it would be different game, and given the time it happened it could be too similar to C&C(still different, but closer), in that time everyone played on 1 base, and if they could select everything, they would fucking wait for 100 units and 1a move them, instead they started to ponder and this mini-segregations of units and buildings gave birth to optimilizations and slow and steady building up brick by brick.
SC2 is different game, imo worse than BW in terms of entairtainment.
I dont care about who would've what, im talking about game design so don't lump me up with the discussion about hypothetical Life kicking FLash ass in BW.
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On May 22 2013 05:03 bgx wrote:
Battle with interface is unnecessarily negative term, actually this battle of interface made BW what it is now.
The fact that SC1 came with anachronistic mechanics is a bless not a curse, it put down the hegemony of C&C where everything was automated, and created the one of the most (the most?) skill hungry game ever.
I CANNOT imagine BW with SC2 ruleset. Actually it would be different game, and given the time it happened it could be too similar to C&C(still different, but closer), in that time everyone played on 1 base, and if they could select everything, they would fucking wait for 100 units and 1a move them, instead they started to ponder and this mini-segregations of units and buildings gave birth to optimilizations and slow and steady building up brick by brick.
SC2 is different game, imo worse than BW in terms of entairtainment.
My point is everyone here is just doing string theory type arguments. Without a proper, careful analysis based on game states and action spending, arguing is pointless.
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EPT
