go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy.
However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once.
the question about mechanics is how much of it is innate, and how much of is it is just knowing which specific mechanics are important, and giving them the according amount of practice?
On May 19 2013 13:30 rj rl wrote: [quote] go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy.
However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once.
the question about mechanics is how much of it is innate, and how much of is it is just knowing which specific mechanics are important, and giving them the according amount of practice?
I would suspect that to a certain extent it's both. However, to some extent one has to admit that some of it is definitely trained. Knowing what specific mechanics are important I think would certainly accelerate the rate that it's improved, but it's interesting to wonder how much that would actually impact things. For example, the idea of multiple drops at once isn't something that's new. MMA was doing it back in the day, and it's obvious that he wasn't the first. I mean people were multitasking like that in Broodwar. However, the extent of the control that goes into it now compared to back then it immense. People micro more drops at once, while not letting their macro slip. Is this just innate, or from practice over the years? Has it really taken years of practice to get to this point, or is it just innate ability of a few people? Thinking about it, it would be really interesting to see some stats about how players APM has risen over the years.
Also, while slightly off target, comparing the time travel thing in SC2 becomes more complicated than something like baseball, as patches have changed the way the game is balanced. There is no way of knowing that strategies used now would even work back then at all.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy.
However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once.
the question about mechanics is how much of it is innate, and how much of is it is just knowing which specific mechanics are important, and giving them the according amount of practice?
I would suspect that to a certain extent it's both. However, to some extent one has to admit that some of it is definitely trained. Knowing what specific mechanics are important I think would certainly accelerate the rate that it's improved, but it's interesting to wonder how much that would actually impact things. For example, the idea of multiple drops at once isn't something that's new. MMA was doing it back in the day, and it's obvious that he wasn't the first. I mean people were multitasking like that in Broodwar. However, the extent of the control that goes into it now compared to back then it immense. People micro more drops at once, while not letting their macro slip. Is this just innate, or from practice over the years? Has it really taken years of practice to get to this point, or is it just innate ability of a few people? Thinking about it, it would be really interesting to see some stats about how players APM has risen over the years.
Also, while slightly off target, comparing the time travel thing in SC2 becomes more complicated than something like baseball, as patches have changed the way the game is balanced. There is no way of knowing that strategies used now would even work back then at all.
In BW, you had to look at your main to macro with Terran. It's always been "easy" to macro if you don't have to change screens. As for why maybe that hasn't happened in the past, in SC 2, I dunno. But, I do know the best SC players weren't playing SC 2 until recently (sans MVP).
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy.
However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once.
the question about mechanics is how much of it is innate, and how much of is it is just knowing which specific mechanics are important, and giving them the according amount of practice?
I would suspect that to a certain extent it's both. However, to some extent one has to admit that some of it is definitely trained. Knowing what specific mechanics are important I think would certainly accelerate the rate that it's improved, but it's interesting to wonder how much that would actually impact things. For example, the idea of multiple drops at once isn't something that's new. MMA was doing it back in the day, and it's obvious that he wasn't the first. I mean people were multitasking like that in Broodwar. However, the extent of the control that goes into it now compared to back then it immense. People micro more drops at once, while not letting their macro slip. Is this just innate, or from practice over the years? Has it really taken years of practice to get to this point, or is it just innate ability of a few people? Thinking about it, it would be really interesting to see some stats about how players APM has risen over the years.
Also, while slightly off target, comparing the time travel thing in SC2 becomes more complicated than something like baseball, as patches have changed the way the game is balanced. There is no way of knowing that strategies used now would even work back then at all.
That's why no one ever does these types of comparisons. Sports HoF voting has always compared players with respect to their peers. Trying to throw and compare players raw skill in different eras is pointless.
EPT
