EPTJust HoTS
[SPL] CJ Entus vs. STX SouL R5 - Page 24
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
Just HoTS | ||
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dustinth
China205 Posts
On May 19 2013 13:58 Dodgin wrote: It would be funny if Symbol beats Bogus in the ro4 with only roach-baneling allins and nydus worm allins, like he has to every other terran. I didn't see any chance, Symbol is so predicable. And Bogus is very good at early engagement. | ||
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thebig1
248 Posts
On May 19 2013 13:52 forsooth wrote: As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless? Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now. This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on... | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:02 dustinth wrote: I didn't see any chance, Symbol is so predicable. And Bogus is very good at early engagement. If he's predictable.. he wouldnt be in Ro4 for two consecutive GSL's in a row, one of th eonly players putting up a fight against the KeSPA's elite tier and having a decent GSTL record :/ | ||
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Clefairy
1570 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
another all-kill for my team. This guy is gold | ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:03 thebig1 wrote: Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now. This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on... Because they are comparing era of dominance, not skill level. of course the best player of 2011 would be far from best player in 2013. they are comparing the players' dominance relative to the scene in their time period | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:05 Clefairy wrote: I love Innovation because he's been the Terran hope for 4 GSL seasons now. Hope he wins this time. I think you mean 3, unless you had him pegged as your hope in the season where it was Mvp vs Life in the finals. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:03 thebig1 wrote: Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now. This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on... Except nobody here is talking about relative skill, or how good Mvp is in 2013. Obviously if you sent Life right now back to GSL Open Season 1 he'd win every tournament in the world with no effort but that's not what was mentioned earlier. What we're talking about is a period of dominance, as in how good a player is in the scene at a particular point in time. Innovation is looking extremely good right now, clearly a cut above all the other Terrans out there, but to compare what he's doing how compared to what Mvp did two years ago is a farce. Mvp crushed everyone and won everything, that's why he has a full trophy case and a pile of prize money. Regardless of how good Bogus looks right now, you can't say the same of him. That's the whole point. | ||
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thebig1
248 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:06 Shellshock1122 wrote: Because they are comparing era of dominance, not skill level. of course the best player of 2011 would be far from best player in 2013. they are comparing the players' dominance relative to the scene in their time period Yes, I understand that, but the point is you need to take the era that they are dominating into account too. If one player is playing in an era where no one knows really knows what they are doing, people haven't had time to develop skills or strategy, and there aren't very many people playing. It's completely different than competing in an era where everyone has spent years refining their art, and there are a ton of people playing at the top level. To use baseball as an example. If you start playing right at the beginning when game is just starting to become a pro sport, no one knows the best way to throw a ball, and decide to go into baseball at the age of 18 because it turns out they have a knack at it. That's different than today, when there are tons of people practice and studying baseball from the time they are very young. Where there are training schools, have been huge improvements in techniques, and people devote their life to it. Edit: As the level of play increases it becomes MUCH MUCH harder to be that one guy who dominates everything. Even if it has nothing to do with skill. In the case of SC2, no one will have a trophy case of tournaments again, because there are 1/10th the amount of tournaments now than there used to be. | ||
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dustinth
China205 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:03 LighT. wrote: If he's predictable.. he wouldnt be in Ro4 for two consecutive GSL's in a row, one of th eonly players putting up a fight against the KeSPA's elite tier and having a decent GSTL record :/ I don't want to be rude, but if Symbol faced anyone except Kangho, Bomber in RO8, he wouldn't be in RO4 this season. We all know that last 2 WOL seasons didn't count since there are so many patch zergs. | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:13 dustinth wrote: I don't want to be rude, but if Symbol faced anyone except Kangho, Bomber in RO8, he wouldn't be in RO4 this season. We all know that last 2 WOL seasons didn't count since there are so many patch zergs. Maybe we'll see. INnovation will beat him for sure.. Innovation is already 2-0 vs Symbol Head to head.. ButI dont think he's really that bad as a player, he did manage to beat Rain after all | ||
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Clefairy
1570 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:06 Dodgin wrote: I think you mean 3, unless you had him pegged as your hope in the season where it was Mvp vs Life in the finals. MVP was no longer a hope by then because of his injury. Just a falling hero even when he got to the finals  | ||
Waxangel
United States33392 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:03 thebig1 wrote: Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now. This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position. | ||
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ColtraneL
France248 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:03 thebig1 wrote: Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now. This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on... I feel HoTS metagame hasn't stabilized enough to truly speak about long steady domination. People are still figuring things out and the different styles are very likely to change a lot in the near future. This is the reason why people tend to give less credits to the first seasons runs (Fruitdealer, Jinro ...) than to those from mid 2011 to the end of WoL. Now I agree that there are more skilled players now than there were before, but when I watch some of the best 2011 games at the top, I don't feel like they are playing bad and they would be destroyed by anybody today. Their macro is usually very solid in those, an incredible game sense sometimes, some pretty good displays of micro and multitasking happen as well. Of course I wouldn't say that Mvp is the best based on previous results, but I don't think that you can deny the greatness of his previous success just because things are supposed to be harder (and you can't compare it to old baseball/modern baseball or tennis or whatever because you're comparing 50 years apart versus 1). I also think that there is more volatility in recent SC2 (ever since big 2012 PvT and ZvT changes and all the mirror match up are more volatile than ever) which partially explains the bigger number of top players. Anyway, Innovation is at the top for the moment, but you've got to let him win things and stay at the top a little while longer before praising him for the greatest domination of the scene. If he suddenly started losing everything, we wouldn't call this last month the era of Innovation's domination one year after, give him some time. | ||
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goody153
44127 Posts
On May 19 2013 13:46 LighT. wrote: So...I just HAD to drop this in. So..Flash is the only player in all of SC2 to have a winning record vs Innovation? nope .. sos also had a winning record against innovation i believe .. but meh sOs is op so no worries haha | ||
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thebig1
248 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:18 Waxangel wrote: This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position. I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy. However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once. | ||
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largehadroncollider
United States88 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:03 thebig1 wrote: Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now. This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on... AMEN. | ||
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GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
On May 19 2013 14:13 dustinth wrote: I don't want to be rude, but if Symbol faced anyone except Kangho, Bomber in RO8, he wouldn't be in RO4 this season. We all know that last 2 WOL seasons didn't count since there are so many patch zergs. How would you know? Symbol is a player with incredible results and memorable games. Hes proved his skill and potential. Where did this idiot hurr symbol is some all in player with no skil. He fucking reverse all killed LG-IM when all hope was lost, he destroyed parting in his prime, hes shown some amazing games and deserves the same respect as any top player. Idiots like you should seriously make me laugh at your ignorance. | ||
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
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