On May 19 2013 12:35 Shellshock1122 wrote: I guess Hydra has a specific plan for INnoVation? #1 vZ player vs a zerg who overall hasn't shown the best ZvT in sc2
On May 19 2013 12:35 Shellshock1122 wrote: I guess Hydra has a specific plan for INnoVation? #1 vZ player vs a zerg who overall hasn't shown the best ZvT in sc2
On May 19 2013 12:35 Shellshock1122 wrote: I guess Hydra has a specific plan for INnoVation? #1 vZ player vs a zerg who overall hasn't shown the best ZvT in sc2
6 Pool
lol, well seeing the way Innovation micro'd those hellions of his against lifelings, good luck with that 6 pool
That game was so weird, I felt like Hydra was going to win for quite some time since none of the drops worked out, he probably should have taken a 5th and gone for infestors/ultras way earlier maybe
Maybe he missed a round of injects or tried to go for +3/+3/adrenal glands/ultra cavern and had no gas for banes? Regardless, Innovation's continuous push is really scary. I don't think any zerg can win against that if innovation gets to 3 bases unscathed.
On May 19 2013 12:50 IshinShishi wrote: innovation lost like 5 dropships without doing any damage and won anyway..
his macro was just wayyy better
this. Innovation had better macro I think. Also, Innovation kept Hydra's mutas busy with the drops and outmultitasked him. Either way, I thought Hydra was doing well but he kept on running his units into widow mines and eventually he got overwhelmed slowly by Innovation.
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
On May 19 2013 12:52 sparklyresidue wrote: vs. Innovation, the burden is on the Zerg to hurt his enon. It seems if you just deny drops and defend okay, you can't keep up economically with him.
I haven't seen a Zerg manage to be aggressive against Innovation or Flash in a macro game. They're too busy defending against everything the Terran throws at them.
Hydra denied drops well but that big ling bane bust just before mutas was really bad, he also took a long time to get his 4th up and mining. Innovation also's macroed well and took a 4th whilst applying constant pressure.
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timied) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
lol what are you talking about? buildings tons of banelings early on to just throw them away is no mistake in your eyes? without this early investment, hydra's economy and tech could have been much better when the deadly triple drop occurred.
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timied) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
you have to realize terran units are more expendable than zerg units. Hydra had the worst baneling control, and on top of that his roach bane timing did 0 dmg. Having those 2 things happen vs innovation, with godlike macro.. it doesn't matter how many medivacs you kill because marines and mines come out faster than lings at a certain point. It is just a steady never ending stream.. So yea hydra deserved to lose, too many mistakes.
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
The only terran players that we've seen that are able to really multitask and dare I say outmacro a zerg are innovation or flash so saying terran is generalizing a bit.
On May 19 2013 12:54 Black Gun wrote: well, i think the timing of the triple drop at the end was extremely unlucky for hydra.
btw why is cj continuing to feed zergs to innovation?
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
at the same time when a zerg is that god awful ar microing baneligns vs widow mines it doesnt matter how much you kill in medivacs. The groups of blings dieing to widow mine shots were much more expensive than the medivac pick offs. He also tried to get all of his tech at once and spend all his gas while he had no banelings and no static defense
On May 19 2013 12:52 sparklyresidue wrote: vs. Innovation, the burden is on the Zerg to hurt his enon. It seems if you just deny drops and defend okay, you can't keep up economically with him.
I haven't seen a Zerg manage to be aggressive against Innovation or Flash in a macro game. They're too busy defending against everything the Terran throws at them.
Soulkey That's the only loss of Innovtion in TvZ in Hots -_-. And if you didn't saw it, the third game of Stephano vs thorzain in WCS, Stephano was in a bad spot, decied to be agressive and won outright.
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timied) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
lol what are you talking about? buildings tons of banelings early on to just throw them away is no mistake in your eyes? without this early investment, hydra's economy and tech could have been much better when the deadly triple drop occurred.
Innovation lost 2 medivacs right after that attack so it didnt really matter that much. It was a very late bust too so economy wise they were fine. You also have to consider the fake bane roach all in that made hydra economy be better than usual at the begining of the game
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
or maybe innovation is just better at the game than hydra and macroed him into the ground with brute force, which he does every game. I don't understand why people forget about skill differences when analyzing a game. Innovation could make mistakes and still win because he is a better player than hydra, not because the game is at fault.
EDIT: 1000 posts! Been spamming the tourney threads recently and that milestone just snuck up on me lol.
Innovation reminds me of late 2011, early 2012 MMA v Z with the multi-pronged harassed backed by strong macro, but he's even more dangerous and powerful IMO because he uses widow mines and medivac boosts so well. Such a pleasure to watch him play
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
or maybe innovation is just better at the game than hydra and macroed him into the ground with brute force, which he does every game. I don't understand why people forget about skill differences when analyzing a game. Innovation could make mistakes and still win because he is a better player than hydra, not because the game is at fault.
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
Hydra kept losing WWAAAYYY to much vs the mines, the only reason he stayed alive so long was the number of failed drops
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
at the same time when a zerg is that god awful ar microing baneligns vs widow mines it doesnt matter how much you kill in medivacs. The groups of blings dieing to widow mine shots were much more expensive than the medivac pick offs. He also tried to get all of his tech at once and spend all his gas while he had no banelings and no static defense
do you really think you can micro/engage bane/ling cost efficient vs mines? Theres no micro that makes it bane vs mine worth unless the terran fucks up on positioning them, the radius (5) and damage (1 shot kill) is just too much. And its quite obivous why zergs dont have static defense on most games, you just cant afford. Do you even play this game at all?
On May 19 2013 12:58 Bagration wrote: Innovation reminds me of late 2011, early 2012 MMA v Z with the multi-pronged harassed backed by strong macro, but he's even more dangerous and powerful IMO because he uses widow mines and medivac boosts so well. Such a pleasure to watch him play
yep, their play is very similiar. They both send dropships knowing that they will probably die, through overlord vision. But they make up for it with improving their position on the map while the dropship is in the air, and taking the lead economically. It is a really bold play
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
at the same time when a zerg is that god awful ar microing baneligns vs widow mines it doesnt matter how much you kill in medivacs. The groups of blings dieing to widow mine shots were much more expensive than the medivac pick offs. He also tried to get all of his tech at once and spend all his gas while he had no banelings and no static defense
do you really think you can micro/engage bane/ling cost efficient vs mines? Theres no micro that makes it bane vs mine worth unless the terran fucks up on positioning them, the radius (5) and damage (1 shot kill) is just too much. And its quite obivous why zergs dont have static defense on most games, you just cant afford. Do you even play this game at all?
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
at the same time when a zerg is that god awful ar microing baneligns vs widow mines it doesnt matter how much you kill in medivacs. The groups of blings dieing to widow mine shots were much more expensive than the medivac pick offs. He also tried to get all of his tech at once and spend all his gas while he had no banelings and no static defense
do you really think you can micro/engage bane/ling cost efficient vs mines? Theres no micro that makes it bane vs mine worth unless the terran fucks up on positioning them, the radius (5) and damage (1 shot kill) is just too much. And its quite obivous why zergs dont have static defense on most games, you just cant afford. Do you even play this game at all?
The problem isn't mines, the problem is Innovation's usage of mines. His positioning and control are just so solid
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
or maybe innovation is just better at the game than hydra and macroed him into the ground with brute force, which he does every game. I don't understand why people forget about skill differences when analyzing a game. Innovation could make mistakes and still win because he is a better player than hydra, not because the game is at fault.
EDIT: 1000 posts! Been spamming the tourney threads recently and that milestone just snuck up on me lol.
My only problem with this explaination is that Innovation crushes top zergs too, while not looking as godly in other matchups... Or maybe he's worse in TvT jsut because the matchup is volatile
I think also hydra repeatedly made a lot more mutas than needed. If you are going to only deny drops..why do you need that giant clump? that made those dropships not seem like such a loss because he spent so much to stop those drops
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
at the same time when a zerg is that god awful ar microing baneligns vs widow mines it doesnt matter how much you kill in medivacs. The groups of blings dieing to widow mine shots were much more expensive than the medivac pick offs. He also tried to get all of his tech at once and spend all his gas while he had no banelings and no static defense
do you really think you can micro/engage bane/ling cost efficient vs mines? Theres no micro that makes it bane vs mine worth unless the terran fucks up on positioning them, the radius (5) and damage (1 shot kill) is just too much. And its quite obivous why zergs dont have static defense on most games, you just cant afford. Do you even play this game at all?
The problem isn't mines, the problem is Innovation's usage of mines. His positioning and control are just so solid
Mines don't need control (You can unburrow but innovation didnt really bother microing it). All drops were not controlled (didnt even need actually)
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
at the same time when a zerg is that god awful ar microing baneligns vs widow mines it doesnt matter how much you kill in medivacs. The groups of blings dieing to widow mine shots were much more expensive than the medivac pick offs. He also tried to get all of his tech at once and spend all his gas while he had no banelings and no static defense
do you really think you can micro/engage bane/ling cost efficient vs mines? Theres no micro that makes it bane vs mine worth unless the terran fucks up on positioning them, the radius (5) and damage (1 shot kill) is just too much. And its quite obivous why zergs dont have static defense on most games, you just cant afford. Do you even play this game at all?
Just stop. You're probably not even up to masters league. Quit complaining and using the best player in the world as an example.
On May 19 2013 12:52 Taipoka wrote: Jesus. Wtf was that? hydra just disapeared.
Terran can get way with a lot of mistakes than protoss/zerg. Innovation lost 5-6 completely full medivacs (terribly timed) but they were both ended up even. Hydra makes the first mistake of the game and its over.
at the same time when a zerg is that god awful ar microing baneligns vs widow mines it doesnt matter how much you kill in medivacs. The groups of blings dieing to widow mine shots were much more expensive than the medivac pick offs. He also tried to get all of his tech at once and spend all his gas while he had no banelings and no static defense
do you really think you can micro/engage bane/ling cost efficient vs mines? Theres no micro that makes it bane vs mine worth unless the terran fucks up on positioning them, the radius (5) and damage (1 shot kill) is just too much. And its quite obivous why zergs dont have static defense on most games, you just cant afford. Do you even play this game at all?
The problem isn't mines, the problem is Innovation's usage of mines. His positioning and control are just so solid
Mines don't need control (You can unburrow but innovation didnt really bother microing it). All drops were not controlled (didnt even need actually)
Yeah we got it. Innovation is a terribad player and hes winning only because terrans, mines, medivacs and hellbats are OP. Ok now move on pls.
oh my god .. innovation with 92.3 % winrate in tvz .. really wish effort win's against innovation .. its kinda sucks that there is a player that has almost 100% win rate ..
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
MVP already won 2 gsls in that time. Innovation hasn't won anything yet.
What I mean is that he is "looking" as dominate or more than MVP did, every time he goes out you are pretty sure he's going to win. Like how it used to be "MVP v Z" was very different from TvZ
On May 19 2013 13:17 BisuDagger wrote: This is frustrating to watch.
It's beyond frustrating when you want the zerg to win, I agree. However, because I like Innovation, and dislike Symbol almost more than any other zerg.. I hope we see something similar next Thursday
On May 19 2013 13:17 BisuDagger wrote: This is frustrating to watch.
It's beyond frustrating when you want the zerg to win, I agree. However, because I like Innovation, and dislike Symbol almost more than any other zerg.. I hope we see something similar next Thursday
This is as if.. Innovation is a legendary Flying type pokemon And all the players he's facing are pokemon using ground type moves. except flash and apparently turn..who's also a legendary flying type and pidgey, respectively.
Innovation 22-2 in HoTS TvZ across all competitions ^^. Loss to Soulkey in Proleague and a 2-1 victory over Leenock in the Asian Indoor Games qualifiers
Seriously though, effOrt had the money near the end to add in at least 5 queens if not 6, which could have transfused and kept him from losing ultras. If he didn't lose much of anything vs. Inno's aggression, Inno would have dried out his 3 bases pretty soon and effOrt might have had a chance to come back.
Oh well, vwp by both sides anyways. Was a very exciting game to watch.
On May 19 2013 13:17 BisuDagger wrote: This is frustrating to watch.
How? This guy is macroing, microing, positioning, and playing perfectly. The only way I see it as frustrating is this: he is at a level I KNOW I will NEVER get to.
On May 19 2013 13:24 Shellshock1122 wrote: Innovation 22-2 in HoTS TvZ across all competitions ^^. Loss to Soulkey in Proleague and a 2-1 victory over Leenock in the Asian Indoor Games qualifiers
INoVation just seems to get TvZ naturally compared to other Terrans. Even in the light of WoL BL/Infestor, he still managed to beat the best Zergs around with a style that has relatively been unchanged since the expansion.
On May 19 2013 13:24 Shellshock1122 wrote: Innovation 22-2 in HoTS TvZ across all competitions ^^. Loss to Soulkey in Proleague and a 2-1 victory over Leenock in the Asian Indoor Games qualifiers
On May 19 2013 13:17 BisuDagger wrote: This is frustrating to watch.
It's beyond frustrating when you want the zerg to win, I agree. However, because I like Innovation, and dislike Symbol almost more than any other zerg.. I hope we see something similar next Thursday
I have no problem with Innovation but I did want effort to win there for sure. Sometimes just seeing a race get run over by some1 as good as innovation is tough.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
MVP already won 2 gsls in that time. Innovation hasn't won anything yet.
What I mean is that he is "looking" as dominate or more than MVP did, every time he goes out you are pretty sure he's going to win. Like how it used to be "MVP v Z" was very different from TvZ
Dominance wise he looks similar to Mvp but I would like to see him keeping this up for a while longer. Players like Taeja have also shown these types of incredible runs.
On May 19 2013 13:17 BisuDagger wrote: This is frustrating to watch.
How? This guy is macroing, microing, positioning, and playing perfectly. The only way I see it as frustrating is this: he is at a level I KNOW I will NEVER get to.
Are you a Vulcan? Here's an example: It's frustrating to me to watch Zerg players play well in the early and midgame, and then suck completely in the late game.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Not exactly, INoVation needs to win a tournament at least, and across multiple regions.
Haha I don't think these "INnoVation must win something first" counter arguments are relevant at all. If players like INnoVation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey etc etc etc were playing SC2 back then, it would have been an entirely different scenario.
On May 19 2013 13:17 BisuDagger wrote: This is frustrating to watch.
How? This guy is macroing, microing, positioning, and playing perfectly. The only way I see it as frustrating is this: he is at a level I KNOW I will NEVER get to.
Like I said in my most recent post, it was frustrating to see Effort lose so "Effortlessly" so to speak. I hurt seeing him get run over like that. That's why it's upsetting. Has nothing to do with balance, Innovation just made Effort look less than mortal.
On May 19 2013 13:26 EleanorRIgby wrote: innovations widow mines just seem to get crazy good hits while mine usually kill a few lings or kill my own marines..
he might micro them... no way to really tell, though.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
You can't have one without the other. If you're not winning tournaments, then you're not actually dominating. Mvp won three GSLs and an MLG from January-August in 2011, Innovation currently has nothing to his name except looking really amazing in one matchup. It's not the same, not even a little.
On May 19 2013 13:26 EleanorRIgby wrote: innovations widow mines just seem to get crazy good hits while mine usually kill a few lings or kill my own marines..
he might micro them... no way to really tell, though.
can you micro mines though? :S I thought you couldn't.
On May 19 2013 13:26 EleanorRIgby wrote: innovations widow mines just seem to get crazy good hits while mine usually kill a few lings or kill my own marines..
he might micro them... no way to really tell, though.
can you micro mines though? :S I thought you couldn't.
you can target them. every time you target something it resets the cast timer as well
On May 19 2013 13:17 BisuDagger wrote: This is frustrating to watch.
How? This guy is macroing, microing, positioning, and playing perfectly. The only way I see it as frustrating is this: he is at a level I KNOW I will NEVER get to.
Like I said in my most recent post, it was frustrating to see Effort lose so "Effortlessly" so to speak. I hurt seeing him get run over like that. That's why it's upsetting. Has nothing to do with balance, Innovation just made Effort look less than mortal.
My apologies! I just assumed it was typical internet whine, not something legit :D
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Not exactly, INoVation needs to win a tournament at least, and across multiple regions.
Haha I don't think these "INnoVation must win something first" counter arguments are relevant at all. If players like INnoVation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey etc etc etc were playing SC2 back then, it would have been an entirely different scenario.
Yeah, maybe proleague would have people watching and esf players would be playing LoL atm.
Yeah if they had a good terran I would send him without hesitation. Hellbats make the match kind of a coin flip. I actually though liked old tvt a lot better when it would more positional tank marine without them having to worry about getting doomed drop all the time.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
You can't have one without the other. If you're not winning tournaments, then you're not actually dominating. Mvp won three GSLs and an MLG from January-August in 2011, Innovation currently has nothing to his name except looking really amazing in one matchup. It's not the same, not even a little.
tournaments usually follow from dominating, but they're not the same. no has or will have a 100% win rate in an rts. you can be clearly the best player and favorite in any match without necessarily winning a tournament.
On May 19 2013 13:30 snakeeyez wrote: Yeah if they had a good terran I would send him without hesitation. Hellbats make the match kind of a coin flip. I actually though liked old tvt a lot better when it would more positional tank marine without them having to worry about getting doomed drop all the time.
i don't think skyhigh can allkill STX that's why you see hero
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
You can't have one without the other. If you're not winning tournaments, then you're not actually dominating. Mvp won three GSLs and an MLG from January-August in 2011, Innovation currently has nothing to his name except looking really amazing in one matchup. It's not the same, not even a little.
This is true.
I think Innovation is currently playing the best SC2 we've seen, only comparable to Life(who I still think could take him on, just played really bad in their series.)
I also love his personality.
But I don't think he's dominating as he hasn't been utterly destroying in TvT and TvP, although that might be because of the higher competition he faces.
I just don't get the feeling I get from MVP back in the day, where literally no matter what I'm like "MVP can do it, he's the best".
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
You can't have one without the other. If you're not winning tournaments, then you're not actually dominating. Mvp won three GSLs and an MLG from January-August in 2011, Innovation currently has nothing to his name except looking really amazing in one matchup. It's not the same, not even a little.
Well, back then, there wasn't KeSPA pros... And no, this doesn't invalidate the achievements of early BW pros like BoxeR, because there wasn't a RTS comparable to BW, and no pro e-sports scene in Korea even.
innovation beats people through mechanical prowess, in mvp's era he had it all, there were games he won before even moving out of his base, still the smartest sc2 player to date.
On May 19 2013 13:32 TimENT wrote: Wasn't Bogus one of the best upcoming players at the end of BW?
He was..inconsistent. He'd show flashes of brilliance then, he'd play like a b-teamer. TY had a higher upside. the true rising player out of STX is supposed to be Mini..but eh's done squat :<..
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
You can't have one without the other. If you're not winning tournaments, then you're not actually dominating. Mvp won three GSLs and an MLG from January-August in 2011, Innovation currently has nothing to his name except looking really amazing in one matchup. It's not the same, not even a little.
tournaments usually follow from dominating, but they're not the same. no has or will have a 100% win rate in an rts. you can be clearly the best player and favorite in any match without necessarily winning a tournament.
have you actually just said something valid which I agree with? Bogus inspires people to do impossible things.
On May 19 2013 13:29 Highwinds wrote: So no shortage of games for Symbol to study innovation's TvZ.
GL HF Symbol
ya, but innovation is aware of that too. that's why he let that nydus go up in his main. symbol probably creamed his lair when he saw that.
Don't compare this "n00b effort nydus" to the "symbol nydus". Symbol elevated nydus usage to never reached before levels, Innovation have to get ready.
On May 19 2013 13:17 BisuDagger wrote: This is frustrating to watch.
How? This guy is macroing, microing, positioning, and playing perfectly. The only way I see it as frustrating is this: he is at a level I KNOW I will NEVER get to.
Like I said in my most recent post, it was frustrating to see Effort lose so "Effortlessly" so to speak. I hurt seeing him get run over like that. That's why it's upsetting. Has nothing to do with balance, Innovation just made Effort look less than mortal.
My apologies! I just assumed it was typical internet whine, not something legit :D
On May 19 2013 13:34 IshinShishi wrote: innovation beats people through mechanical prowess, in mvp's era he had it all, there were games he won before even moving out of his base, still the smartest sc2 player to date.
Agreed. Life comes close, but MVP is still what I would describe as the most skilled in the most ways player so far.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Not exactly, INoVation needs to win a tournament at least, and across multiple regions.
Haha I don't think these "INnoVation must win something first" counter arguments are relevant at all. If players like INnoVation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey etc etc etc were playing SC2 back then, it would have been an entirely different scenario.
true, but mvp was dominant in all matchups whereas innovation only has this aura of inviciblity in his best matchup, tvz. remember how unbeatable mvp (in his prime) was in tvt? how dominant he was in tvz? and how he was able to win a gsl against almost only protoss opponents, very strong ones nonetheless, at a time where his wrists were already exploding and protoss had the upper hand in the pvt metagame? mvp has the ability to conjure victories out of nothing. so far, innovation has only shown this skill in tvz alone.
On May 19 2013 13:29 Highwinds wrote: So no shortage of games for Symbol to study innovation's TvZ.
GL HF Symbol
ya, but innovation is aware of that too. that's why he let that nydus go up in his main. symbol probably creamed his lair when he saw that.
Don't compare this "n00b effort nydus" to the "symbol nydus". Symbol elevated nydus usage to never reached before levels, Innovation have to get ready.
aha, that's true. i shouldn't underestimate the symbol nydus.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Not exactly, INoVation needs to win a tournament at least, and across multiple regions.
Haha I don't think these "INnoVation must win something first" counter arguments are relevant at all. If players like INnoVation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey etc etc etc were playing SC2 back then, it would have been an entirely different scenario.
true, but mvp was dominant in all matchup whereas innovation only has this aura of inviciblity in his best matchup, tvz. remember how unbeatable mvp (in his prime) was in tvt? how dominant he was in tvz? and how i was able to win a gsl against almost only protoss opponents, very strong ones nonetheless, at a time where his wrists were already exploding and protoss had the upper hand in the pvt metagame? mvp has the ability to conjure victories out of nothing. so far, innovation has only shown this skill in tvz alone.
MVP winning that GSL with hurt wrists and in his match-up he struggled with for the longest time, after a period of domination had ended and people begun writing him up, is by the far the greatest sc2 experience that has happened to me so far.
On May 19 2013 13:37 playa wrote: Anyone know if "Innovation" (43-2 GM) on NA is the real one? Getting desperate to find a challenge perhaps.
I doubt it. It's probably another prime player impersonating someone else's ID getting tired of Korea since they seem to be unable to win anything anymore. ByuN was already playing on NA and the team is known for copying many other IDs to ladder: Boxer, Flash, Rain, Effort, etc
Why doesn't anyone hallucinate oracles to scout? It's always phoenixes, are they that much faster? He could also move a hallucinated one in one base then attack with the real one at another? Maybe I'm thinking too much about it.
On May 19 2013 13:37 playa wrote: Anyone know if "Innovation" (43-2 GM) on NA is the real one? Getting desperate to find a challenge perhaps.
I doubt it. It's probably another prime player impersonating someone else's ID getting tired of Korea since they seem to be unable to win anything anymore. ByuN was already playing on NA and the team is known for copying many other IDs to ladder: Boxer, Flash, Rain, Effort, etc
Pretty sure I saw xenocider streaming from that name..
On May 19 2013 13:24 Shellshock1122 wrote: Innovation 22-2 in HoTS TvZ across all competitions ^^. Loss to Soulkey in Proleague and a 2-1 victory over Leenock in the Asian Indoor Games qualifiers
On May 19 2013 13:37 playa wrote: Anyone know if "Innovation" (43-2 GM) on NA is the real one? Getting desperate to find a challenge perhaps.
I doubt it. It's probably another prime player impersonating someone else's ID getting tired of Korea since they seem to be unable to win anything anymore. ByuN was already playing on NA and the team is known for copying many other IDs to ladder: Boxer, Flash, Rain, Effort, etc
Pretty sure I saw xenocider streaming from that name..
On May 19 2013 13:37 playa wrote: Anyone know if "Innovation" (43-2 GM) on NA is the real one? Getting desperate to find a challenge perhaps.
I doubt it. It's probably another prime player impersonating someone else's ID getting tired of Korea since they seem to be unable to win anything anymore. ByuN was already playing on NA and the team is known for copying many other IDs to ladder: Boxer, Flash, Rain, Effort, etc
Pretty sure I saw xenocider streaming from that name..
would be surprising to see xenocider going 43-2
On a new account on NA not that surprising if he dodges a few people.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
so in a scene with even more gosus, how do we separate the best from the rest? how do we see who is truly dominating?
winning is the only thing that matters. I think innovation is the best player in the world right now, but if he doesn't win this GSL it reverts back to Life, who has actually put the results behind the hype consistently over a non-trivial period of time.
On May 19 2013 13:37 playa wrote: Anyone know if "Innovation" (43-2 GM) on NA is the real one? Getting desperate to find a challenge perhaps.
I doubt it. It's probably another prime player impersonating someone else's ID getting tired of Korea since they seem to be unable to win anything anymore. ByuN was already playing on NA and the team is known for copying many other IDs to ladder: Boxer, Flash, Rain, Effort, etc
Pretty sure I saw xenocider streaming from that name..
would be surprising to see xenocider going 43-2
Shiiiit, not really. If I can go like 15-2, a guy who sits at top 16 GM can do it easily. I'm only mid masters, at best on a good day on the cusp of high.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
so in a scene with even more gosus, how do we separate the best from the rest? how do we see who is truly dominating?
you let fanboys battle it out in lr's with backhanded compliments and snark ofc.
On May 19 2013 13:37 playa wrote: Anyone know if "Innovation" (43-2 GM) on NA is the real one? Getting desperate to find a challenge perhaps.
I doubt it. It's probably another prime player impersonating someone else's ID getting tired of Korea since they seem to be unable to win anything anymore. ByuN was already playing on NA and the team is known for copying many other IDs to ladder: Boxer, Flash, Rain, Effort, etc
Pretty sure I saw xenocider streaming from that name..
would be surprising to see xenocider going 43-2
would it really be? we can assume 20 of those games were against players much worse than him if it's a new account, then it's not out of the question to say he could go 23-2 if he doesn't hit the best players on na.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
so in a scene with even more gosus, how do we separate the best from the rest? how do we see who is truly dominating?
by sheer statistics telling us bogus is 75% vP, 90% vZ, 50% vT, pretty decent no? Take into account that half of his vT are against Flash, half of his vP are against Rain both arguably are the best vT players of their races. Yet this is still being called hollow hype just because he hasn't won anything.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
so in a scene with even more gosus, how do we separate the best from the rest? how do we see who is truly dominating?
by sheer statistics telling us bogus is 75% vP, 90% vZ, 50% vT, pretty decent no? Take into account that half of his vT are against Flash, half of his vP are against Rain both arguably are the best vT players of their races. Yet this is still being called hollow hype just because he hasn't won anything.
It's not being called hollow hype, it's being called "we can't compare it to Mvp's 2011 run yet". Read more carefully please.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
so in a scene with even more gosus, how do we separate the best from the rest? how do we see who is truly dominating?
by sheer statistics telling us bogus is 75% vP, 90% vZ, 50% vT, pretty decent no? Take into account that half of his vT are against Flash, half of his vP are against Rain both arguably are the best vT players of their races. Yet this is still being called hollow hype just because he hasn't won anything.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
so in a scene with even more gosus, how do we separate the best from the rest? how do we see who is truly dominating?
by sheer statistics telling us bogus is 75% vP, 90% vZ, 50% vT, pretty decent no? Take into account that half of his vT are against Flash, half of his vP are against Rain both arguably are the best vT players of their races. Yet this is still being called hollow hype just because he hasn't won anything.
it's not hollow hype. it's legit hype. but that doesn't stop it from meaning nothing at the end of the day. you play to win, so until you win tournaments all your win percentages come with a huge asterisk by them. I fully expect Innovation to win this GSL, but if he doesn't then it is perfectly fair to knock him down a peg until he wins something.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
On May 19 2013 13:48 tuho12345 wrote: Innovation will start the next game as well. Oh god this will be so painful for the next team lol
well the next one is WJS soooo that should be pretty hype
I wonder why he's the starter for both matches even though he has his WCS match to prepare for. If he allkills again and wins his match, he's got some godlike stamina.
On May 19 2013 13:44 Ace Frehley wrote: Hero was in a good position, but threw it, bleh
Is it just me that notices 90% of the people on teamliquid don't understand the meaning of the "threw" or "throwing the match"?
Hero 'blew' it would be appropriate, saying he threw it suggests he lost on purpose.. Evrytime a player loses after being in a good position, all these posts come up about how they threw the matches which makes no sense, unless people really do think they lose on purpose :S
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Not exactly, INoVation needs to win a tournament at least, and across multiple regions.
Haha I don't think these "INnoVation must win something first" counter arguments are relevant at all. If players like INnoVation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey etc etc etc were playing SC2 back then, it would have been an entirely different scenario.
true, but mvp was dominant in all matchups whereas innovation only has this aura of inviciblity in his best matchup, tvz. remember how unbeatable mvp (in his prime) was in tvt? how dominant he was in tvz? and how he was able to win a gsl against almost only protoss opponents, very strong ones nonetheless, at a time where his wrists were already exploding and protoss had the upper hand in the pvt metagame? mvp has the ability to conjure victories out of nothing. so far, innovation has only shown this skill in tvz alone.
Realistically, I don't think he could dominate as easily in all MUs given the higher level of competition today vs. the time before KeSPA transitioned. These guys are definitely playing a notch higher.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
so in a scene with even more gosus, how do we separate the best from the rest? how do we see who is truly dominating?
by sheer statistics telling us bogus is 75% vP, 90% vZ, 50% vT, pretty decent no? Take into account that half of his vT are against Flash, half of his vP are against Rain both arguably are the best vT players of their races. Yet this is still being called hollow hype just because he hasn't won anything.
It's not being called hollow hype, it's being called "we can't compare it to Mvp's 2011 run yet". Read more carefully please.
even in Mvp's prime he didn't have extremely dominant TvP, just TvT and TvZ. It's actually funny because in 2012 and in HotS his TvP has been better than his TvT
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Not exactly, INoVation needs to win a tournament at least, and across multiple regions.
Haha I don't think these "INnoVation must win something first" counter arguments are relevant at all. If players like INnoVation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey etc etc etc were playing SC2 back then, it would have been an entirely different scenario.
true, but mvp was dominant in all matchups whereas innovation only has this aura of inviciblity in his best matchup, tvz. remember how unbeatable mvp (in his prime) was in tvt? how dominant he was in tvz? and how he was able to win a gsl against almost only protoss opponents, very strong ones nonetheless, at a time where his wrists were already exploding and protoss had the upper hand in the pvt metagame? mvp has the ability to conjure victories out of nothing. so far, innovation has only shown this skill in tvz alone.
Realistically, I don't think he could dominate as easily in all MUs given the higher level of competition today vs. the time before KeSPA transitioned. These guys are definitely playing a notch higher.
The same could be easily said of any number of great players prior to the TBLS era, yet that doesn't diminish what they accomplished. Starcraft just like any other sport evolves over time and the skill level gets ever higher. That doesn't stop players who did great things in their own time from deserving recognition and respect for it.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Yeah that Woongjin terran had an impressive run in 2011, I trust Innovation to do and be even better though.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
don't put words in my mouth, it's not meaningless, it's devalued significantly and you can't deny that. Where's mvp with all the current pros around? Oh I forgot, he's healing the wrists, just as taeja. blahblah
btw, to stay realistic about the Innovation hype train, don't forget TvT....
everyone was so quick to ignore that Life might be weak in a mirror when he made his championship runs at GSL/MLG, and then he was exposed two seasons in a row in that match-up
Innovation is showing GODLY TvZ, very good TvP, but his TvT is still vulnerable, despite being quite good
On May 19 2013 13:58 Dodgin wrote: It would be funny if Symbol beats Bogus in the ro4 with only roach-baneling allins and nydus worm allins, like he has to every other terran.
hyvaa is basically a miniatur version of symbol though. he loves em timing attacks sans nydus worms.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Not exactly, INoVation needs to win a tournament at least, and across multiple regions.
Haha I don't think these "INnoVation must win something first" counter arguments are relevant at all. If players like INnoVation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey etc etc etc were playing SC2 back then, it would have been an entirely different scenario.
true, but mvp was dominant in all matchups whereas innovation only has this aura of inviciblity in his best matchup, tvz. remember how unbeatable mvp (in his prime) was in tvt? how dominant he was in tvz? and how he was able to win a gsl against almost only protoss opponents, very strong ones nonetheless, at a time where his wrists were already exploding and protoss had the upper hand in the pvt metagame? mvp has the ability to conjure victories out of nothing. so far, innovation has only shown this skill in tvz alone.
Realistically, I don't think he could dominate as easily in all MUs given the higher level of competition today vs. the time before KeSPA transitioned. These guys are definitely playing a notch higher.
The same could be easily said of any number of great players prior to the TBLS era, yet that doesn't diminish what they accomplished. Starcraft just like any other sport evolves over time and the skill level gets ever higher. That doesn't stop players who did great things in their own time from deserving recognition and respect for it.
There's a difference between players of different time eras, and players playing quite similar games in the same era.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Not exactly, INoVation needs to win a tournament at least, and across multiple regions.
Haha I don't think these "INnoVation must win something first" counter arguments are relevant at all. If players like INnoVation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey etc etc etc were playing SC2 back then, it would have been an entirely different scenario.
true, but mvp was dominant in all matchups whereas innovation only has this aura of inviciblity in his best matchup, tvz. remember how unbeatable mvp (in his prime) was in tvt? how dominant he was in tvz? and how he was able to win a gsl against almost only protoss opponents, very strong ones nonetheless, at a time where his wrists were already exploding and protoss had the upper hand in the pvt metagame? mvp has the ability to conjure victories out of nothing. so far, innovation has only shown this skill in tvz alone.
Realistically, I don't think he could dominate as easily in all MUs given the higher level of competition today vs. the time before KeSPA transitioned. These guys are definitely playing a notch higher.
The same could be easily said of any number of great players prior to the TBLS era, yet that doesn't diminish what they accomplished. Starcraft just like any other sport evolves over time and the skill level gets ever higher. That doesn't stop players who did great things in their own time from deserving recognition and respect for it.
On May 19 2013 13:58 Dodgin wrote: It would be funny if Symbol beats Bogus in the ro4 with only roach-baneling allins and nydus worm allins, like he has to every other terran.
I didn't see any chance, Symbol is so predicable. And Bogus is very good at early engagement.
On May 19 2013 13:18 Talack wrote: This is more dominate than MVP's 2011 run, just crazy
Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on...
On May 19 2013 13:58 Dodgin wrote: It would be funny if Symbol beats Bogus in the ro4 with only roach-baneling allins and nydus worm allins, like he has to every other terran.
I didn't see any chance, Symbol is so predicable. And Bogus is very good at early engagement.
If he's predictable.. he wouldnt be in Ro4 for two consecutive GSL's in a row, one of th eonly players putting up a fight against the KeSPA's elite tier and having a decent GSTL record :/
On May 19 2013 13:20 forsooth wrote: [quote] Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on...
Because they are comparing era of dominance, not skill level. of course the best player of 2011 would be far from best player in 2013. they are comparing the players' dominance relative to the scene in their time period
On May 19 2013 13:20 forsooth wrote: [quote] Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on...
Except nobody here is talking about relative skill, or how good Mvp is in 2013. Obviously if you sent Life right now back to GSL Open Season 1 he'd win every tournament in the world with no effort but that's not what was mentioned earlier. What we're talking about is a period of dominance, as in how good a player is in the scene at a particular point in time. Innovation is looking extremely good right now, clearly a cut above all the other Terrans out there, but to compare what he's doing how compared to what Mvp did two years ago is a farce. Mvp crushed everyone and won everything, that's why he has a full trophy case and a pile of prize money. Regardless of how good Bogus looks right now, you can't say the same of him. That's the whole point.
On May 19 2013 13:26 rj rl wrote: [quote] to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on...
Because they are comparing era of dominance, not skill level. of course the best player of 2011 would be far from best player in 2013. they are comparing the players' dominance relative to the scene in their time period
Yes, I understand that, but the point is you need to take the era that they are dominating into account too.
If one player is playing in an era where no one knows really knows what they are doing, people haven't had time to develop skills or strategy, and there aren't very many people playing. It's completely different than competing in an era where everyone has spent years refining their art, and there are a ton of people playing at the top level.
To use baseball as an example. If you start playing right at the beginning when game is just starting to become a pro sport, no one knows the best way to throw a ball, and decide to go into baseball at the age of 18 because it turns out they have a knack at it. That's different than today, when there are tons of people practice and studying baseball from the time they are very young. Where there are training schools, have been huge improvements in techniques, and people devote their life to it.
Edit: As the level of play increases it becomes MUCH MUCH harder to be that one guy who dominates everything. Even if it has nothing to do with skill.
In the case of SC2, no one will have a trophy case of tournaments again, because there are 1/10th the amount of tournaments now than there used to be.
On May 19 2013 13:58 Dodgin wrote: It would be funny if Symbol beats Bogus in the ro4 with only roach-baneling allins and nydus worm allins, like he has to every other terran.
I didn't see any chance, Symbol is so predicable. And Bogus is very good at early engagement.
If he's predictable.. he wouldnt be in Ro4 for two consecutive GSL's in a row, one of th eonly players putting up a fight against the KeSPA's elite tier and having a decent GSTL record :/
I don't want to be rude, but if Symbol faced anyone except Kangho, Bomber in RO8, he wouldn't be in RO4 this season. We all know that last 2 WOL seasons didn't count since there are so many patch zergs.
On May 19 2013 13:58 Dodgin wrote: It would be funny if Symbol beats Bogus in the ro4 with only roach-baneling allins and nydus worm allins, like he has to every other terran.
I didn't see any chance, Symbol is so predicable. And Bogus is very good at early engagement.
If he's predictable.. he wouldnt be in Ro4 for two consecutive GSL's in a row, one of th eonly players putting up a fight against the KeSPA's elite tier and having a decent GSTL record :/
I don't want to be rude, but if Symbol faced anyone except Kangho, Bomber in RO8, he wouldn't be in RO4 this season. We all know that last 2 WOL seasons didn't count since there are so many patch zergs.
Maybe we'll see. INnovation will beat him for sure.. Innovation is already 2-0 vs Symbol Head to head.. ButI dont think he's really that bad as a player, he did manage to beat Rain after all
On May 19 2013 13:20 forsooth wrote: [quote] Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
On May 19 2013 13:20 forsooth wrote: [quote] Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on...
I feel HoTS metagame hasn't stabilized enough to truly speak about long steady domination. People are still figuring things out and the different styles are very likely to change a lot in the near future.
This is the reason why people tend to give less credits to the first seasons runs (Fruitdealer, Jinro ...) than to those from mid 2011 to the end of WoL. Now I agree that there are more skilled players now than there were before, but when I watch some of the best 2011 games at the top, I don't feel like they are playing bad and they would be destroyed by anybody today. Their macro is usually very solid in those, an incredible game sense sometimes, some pretty good displays of micro and multitasking happen as well. Of course I wouldn't say that Mvp is the best based on previous results, but I don't think that you can deny the greatness of his previous success just because things are supposed to be harder (and you can't compare it to old baseball/modern baseball or tennis or whatever because you're comparing 50 years apart versus 1). I also think that there is more volatility in recent SC2 (ever since big 2012 PvT and ZvT changes and all the mirror match up are more volatile than ever) which partially explains the bigger number of top players.
Anyway, Innovation is at the top for the moment, but you've got to let him win things and stay at the top a little while longer before praising him for the greatest domination of the scene. If he suddenly started losing everything, we wouldn't call this last month the era of Innovation's domination one year after, give him some time.
On May 19 2013 13:26 rj rl wrote: [quote] to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy.
However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once.
On May 19 2013 13:20 forsooth wrote: [quote] Let's not get carried away, Innovation needs to actually win something first.
to be dominating - no he doesn't.
to compare him to Mvp, he does.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then. To call ANYONE the best player in the world in 2013 because of their results in 2011 is insanity. In MVP's case, didn't he just lose to LucifroN? LucifroN is really good, but come on...
On May 19 2013 13:58 Dodgin wrote: It would be funny if Symbol beats Bogus in the ro4 with only roach-baneling allins and nydus worm allins, like he has to every other terran.
I didn't see any chance, Symbol is so predicable. And Bogus is very good at early engagement.
If he's predictable.. he wouldnt be in Ro4 for two consecutive GSL's in a row, one of th eonly players putting up a fight against the KeSPA's elite tier and having a decent GSTL record :/
I don't want to be rude, but if Symbol faced anyone except Kangho, Bomber in RO8, he wouldn't be in RO4 this season. We all know that last 2 WOL seasons didn't count since there are so many patch zergs.
How would you know? Symbol is a player with incredible results and memorable games. Hes proved his skill and potential. Where did this idiot hurr symbol is some all in player with no skil. He fucking reverse all killed LG-IM when all hope was lost, he destroyed parting in his prime, hes shown some amazing games and deserves the same respect as any top player.
Idiots like you should seriously make me laugh at your ignorance.
go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy.
However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once.
the question about mechanics is how much of it is innate, and how much of is it is just knowing which specific mechanics are important, and giving them the according amount of practice?
On May 19 2013 13:30 rj rl wrote: [quote] go compare jjakji and sniper to mvp then, so far you sound like a defending fanboy a bit.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy.
However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once.
the question about mechanics is how much of it is innate, and how much of is it is just knowing which specific mechanics are important, and giving them the according amount of practice?
I would suspect that to a certain extent it's both. However, to some extent one has to admit that some of it is definitely trained. Knowing what specific mechanics are important I think would certainly accelerate the rate that it's improved, but it's interesting to wonder how much that would actually impact things. For example, the idea of multiple drops at once isn't something that's new. MMA was doing it back in the day, and it's obvious that he wasn't the first. I mean people were multitasking like that in Broodwar. However, the extent of the control that goes into it now compared to back then it immense. People micro more drops at once, while not letting their macro slip. Is this just innate, or from practice over the years? Has it really taken years of practice to get to this point, or is it just innate ability of a few people? Thinking about it, it would be really interesting to see some stats about how players APM has risen over the years.
Also, while slightly off target, comparing the time travel thing in SC2 becomes more complicated than something like baseball, as patches have changed the way the game is balanced. There is no way of knowing that strategies used now would even work back then at all.
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy.
However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once.
the question about mechanics is how much of it is innate, and how much of is it is just knowing which specific mechanics are important, and giving them the according amount of practice?
I would suspect that to a certain extent it's both. However, to some extent one has to admit that some of it is definitely trained. Knowing what specific mechanics are important I think would certainly accelerate the rate that it's improved, but it's interesting to wonder how much that would actually impact things. For example, the idea of multiple drops at once isn't something that's new. MMA was doing it back in the day, and it's obvious that he wasn't the first. I mean people were multitasking like that in Broodwar. However, the extent of the control that goes into it now compared to back then it immense. People micro more drops at once, while not letting their macro slip. Is this just innate, or from practice over the years? Has it really taken years of practice to get to this point, or is it just innate ability of a few people? Thinking about it, it would be really interesting to see some stats about how players APM has risen over the years.
Also, while slightly off target, comparing the time travel thing in SC2 becomes more complicated than something like baseball, as patches have changed the way the game is balanced. There is no way of knowing that strategies used now would even work back then at all.
In BW, you had to look at your main to macro with Terran. It's always been "easy" to macro if you don't have to change screens. As for why maybe that hasn't happened in the past, in SC 2, I dunno. But, I do know the best SC players weren't playing SC 2 until recently (sans MVP).
there are guys who have won multiple GSLs and foreign tournaments, and there are guys who haven't. it's pretty simple.
I will pretend that foreign tournaments aren't irrelevant at all and answer to your whole message: the scene evolves and gets by far more gosu dense each year. Is it not simple for you?
Oh, you're one of those. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and not waste everyone's time?
seeing your im sign I bother not even trying to touch your holy mvp fanboyism,
As opposed to shamelessly fellating the Kespa pros and pretending like everything that happened before the switchover is meaningless?
Look, of course results from 2011 aren't meanlingless, that would be like saying Babe Ruth's home run record was meaningless. However, I don't think any baseball fan in their right mind would try and argue that the circumstances around his record can be compared to the records being set today. If you brought Babe Ruth forward in time, or sent Barry Bonds back it would be a total farce. The game has changed from then, it was A LOT easier to pull those kind of results back then than it is now.
This holds true for SC2 too. You even had pros talking about it on one of djwheat's shows the other day. If you sent one of them back to the early days of SC2 it would be a slaughter. Skill across the board has skyrocketed, and there are many more players at a high skill level now than back then.
This is a pretty interesting topic to think about, in terms of both traditional and electronic sports. Especially the "send a fringe pro back in time and he would dominate" thought experiment. At least in terms of esports, where there's a very small physical fitness/training/sports medicine factor, you can argue that the only advantage a modern player has is the strategic knowledge accumulated over the years. It could be argued the player sent back in time would only be dominant for a short period while others hadn't adopted to his strategies (he may not even be dominant at all if his strategies are so far ahead in the meta-game that it loses to a cheese meta executed by superior players), and then the more talented players would just adopt his strats and the fringe player would return to his previous position.
I definitely agree with that. I think it really depends on who is being sent back and how far back they are being sent. If you are just sending some random pro back, who is just going to win with knowledge then I agree that the dominance probably wouldn't last that long. Unless they were really clever about how they doled out their strategy.
However, if you sent someone back who is a mechanics monster, it could potentially take quite a while for people to be able to develop the mechanics to actually deal with 4 drops at once.
the question about mechanics is how much of it is innate, and how much of is it is just knowing which specific mechanics are important, and giving them the according amount of practice?
I would suspect that to a certain extent it's both. However, to some extent one has to admit that some of it is definitely trained. Knowing what specific mechanics are important I think would certainly accelerate the rate that it's improved, but it's interesting to wonder how much that would actually impact things. For example, the idea of multiple drops at once isn't something that's new. MMA was doing it back in the day, and it's obvious that he wasn't the first. I mean people were multitasking like that in Broodwar. However, the extent of the control that goes into it now compared to back then it immense. People micro more drops at once, while not letting their macro slip. Is this just innate, or from practice over the years? Has it really taken years of practice to get to this point, or is it just innate ability of a few people? Thinking about it, it would be really interesting to see some stats about how players APM has risen over the years.
Also, while slightly off target, comparing the time travel thing in SC2 becomes more complicated than something like baseball, as patches have changed the way the game is balanced. There is no way of knowing that strategies used now would even work back then at all.
That's why no one ever does these types of comparisons. Sports HoF voting has always compared players with respect to their peers. Trying to throw and compare players raw skill in different eras is pointless.
On May 19 2013 13:30 BigFan wrote: no point in watching the last match, I know who's gonna win(I think lol). night all ^_^
yea...we all totally knew, turn was going to beat Innovation.
well, it was either missing sleep and watching Innovation all killing or HerO trying to all kill or go to sleep. I feel that I made the right choice lol. PS look at sig ^^
Way to go Innovation! Too bad my FPL somehow disappeared on me so I have no team ><
Always send out Innovation first instead of last as an ace. He does much better with less pressure lol. And when he can win the first game, he'll take the rest easily.
On May 20 2013 06:45 affect wrote: I wouldn't say unstoppable, he lost the last two spl game prior to this one. If anyone is unstoppable it would be Zest.