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On April 25 2013 06:25 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:20 Sissors wrote:On April 25 2013 06:15 sitromit wrote:
Only Korean Zergs can play Muta/Ling against Bio/Mine I expect zergs to start using infestors more. Really bio isn't as fast as for example mutas and phoenix, so with some practise you can still fungal them. And fungal on widow mines is really effective. Maybe Infestors will become popular again, I don't know. It just looks to me like foreign Zergs don't have strong enough mechanics to play Muta/Ling against Bio/Mine. Even among Korean Zergs, only the best ones seem to be able to pull this off so far.
So the roles have been reversed?
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One thing about balance (and nothing based on today, bly's failed aggression often put him far behind), it is somewhat disturbing what terrans are able to do with extremely inefficient builds. 2k gas banks are the norm in a 15 minute TvZ. Imagine that gas turned into units (or the scv's doing the mining done so). There is a lot of room for improvement on the terran side.
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Bel'shir Vestige seems like the graveyard for zerg players lately. It seems that most of the ZvX games I've watched on that map have gone against the zerg. Maybe the narrowness and distance between 4th and 5th?
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Thank you ESL !!!!!!!!!!!
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On April 25 2013 06:29 m0ck wrote:
One thing about balance (and nothing based on today, bly's failed aggression often put him far behind), it is somewhat disturbing what terrans are able to do with extremely inefficient builds. 2k gas banks are the norm in a 15 minute TvZ. Imagine that gas turned into units (or the scv's doing the mining done so). There is a lot of room for improvement on the terran side.
That's pretty much been the case in all of WoL too, although we have been seeing more finetuned builds in korea with 3 base 4 gas I think.
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I am just tired of Zerg acting like Terran is absurdly OP, Terran were way cooler to you guys IIRC when you were OP, also Protoss is a freakin JOKE and nobody seems to care, can Protoss begin whining yet? You guys have 3 in KR out of 16, in EU 0, no peeps outta you? Its always bang that Terran OP drum slowly.
Zerg have more representation in Code S KR, and according to my prediction using that win generator website, in WCS NA they will be beating Terran, top 8 will be 5 Zerg, 3 Terran and 1 Toss. Also my prediction is either Violet or Sen wins WCS NA. Life wins WCS KR.
Terran will win be called OP but Zerg will win everything. Still if Zerg keep talking Blizzard will have to listen and get ready for ZvZ until LotV. Yippie.
Zerg tears are made of acid and erode eSports.
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On April 25 2013 06:30 pak150 wrote:
Bel'shir Vestige seems like the graveyard for zerg players lately. It seems that most of the ZvX games I've watched on that map have gone against the zerg. Maybe the narrowness and distance between 4th and 5th?
Static defense at 3rd, take 4 above main. Zergs have been spoiled for years. Terran and protos use buildings and static defence to defend. Its time for zerg to do that aswell. Its a transition i know...
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On April 25 2013 06:33 DeathProfessor wrote:
I am just tired of Zerg acting like Terran is absurdly OP, Terran were way cooler to you guys IIRC when you were OP, also Protoss is a freakin JOKE and nobody seems to care, can Protoss begin whining yet? You guys have 3 in KR out of 16, in EU 0, no peeps outta you? Its always bang that Terran OP drum slowly.
Zerg have more representation in Code S KR, and according to my prediction using that win generator website, in WCS NA they will be beating Terran, top 8 will be 5 Zerg, 3 Terran and 1 Toss. Also my prediction is either Violet or Sen wins WCS NA. Life wins WCS KR.
Terran will win be called OP but Zerg will win everything. Still if Zerg keep talking Blizzard will have to listen and get ready for ZvZ until LotV. Yippie.
Zerg tears are made of acid and erode eSports.
The quality of this post is astounding, where do I buy more?
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Northern Ireland25470 Posts
On April 25 2013 06:03 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:02 AlternativeEgo wrote:On April 25 2013 06:00 Heartland wrote:On April 25 2013 05:58 AlternativeEgo wrote:On April 25 2013 05:56 Ace Frehley wrote:
Europeans do not like all-ins and cheeses very much, huh? Finnish terrans do. And Finnish Protosses. Maybe they are eager to get to the sauna I think someone should try to get to the bottom of what makes all Finnish players crazy.
They're Finnish
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On April 25 2013 06:36 sparklyresidue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:33 DeathProfessor wrote:
I am just tired of Zerg acting like Terran is absurdly OP, Terran were way cooler to you guys IIRC when you were OP, also Protoss is a freakin JOKE and nobody seems to care, can Protoss begin whining yet? You guys have 3 in KR out of 16, in EU 0, no peeps outta you? Its always bang that Terran OP drum slowly.
Zerg have more representation in Code S KR, and according to my prediction using that win generator website, in WCS NA they will be beating Terran, top 8 will be 5 Zerg, 3 Terran and 1 Toss. Also my prediction is either Violet or Sen wins WCS NA. Life wins WCS KR.
Terran will win be called OP but Zerg will win everything. Still if Zerg keep talking Blizzard will have to listen and get ready for ZvZ until LotV. Yippie.
Zerg tears are made of acid and erode eSports. The quality of this post is astounding, where do I buy more?
It is actually really weird whereas in Proleague, Protoss' thrive.
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On April 25 2013 06:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:03 Heartland wrote:On April 25 2013 06:02 AlternativeEgo wrote:On April 25 2013 06:00 Heartland wrote:On April 25 2013 05:58 AlternativeEgo wrote:On April 25 2013 05:56 Ace Frehley wrote:
Europeans do not like all-ins and cheeses very much, huh? Finnish terrans do. And Finnish Protosses. Maybe they are eager to get to the sauna I think someone should try to get to the bottom of what makes all Finnish players crazy. They're Finnish
They are impatient. That's why they are all good at motor sports.
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Northern Ireland25470 Posts
On April 25 2013 06:40 Abominous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:36 sparklyresidue wrote:On April 25 2013 06:33 DeathProfessor wrote:
I am just tired of Zerg acting like Terran is absurdly OP, Terran were way cooler to you guys IIRC when you were OP, also Protoss is a freakin JOKE and nobody seems to care, can Protoss begin whining yet? You guys have 3 in KR out of 16, in EU 0, no peeps outta you? Its always bang that Terran OP drum slowly.
Zerg have more representation in Code S KR, and according to my prediction using that win generator website, in WCS NA they will be beating Terran, top 8 will be 5 Zerg, 3 Terran and 1 Toss. Also my prediction is either Violet or Sen wins WCS NA. Life wins WCS KR.
Terran will win be called OP but Zerg will win everything. Still if Zerg keep talking Blizzard will have to listen and get ready for ZvZ until LotV. Yippie.
Zerg tears are made of acid and erode eSports. The quality of this post is astounding, where do I buy more? It is actually really weird whereas in Proleague, Protoss' thrive.
It's not that weird, Protoss suit preparing for a bo1. The more sets the more difficult, can't do the same builds all the time, especially in WoL PvZ if you want a good example.
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On April 25 2013 06:29 m0ck wrote:
One thing about balance (and nothing based on today, bly's failed aggression often put him far behind), it is somewhat disturbing what terrans are able to do with extremely inefficient builds. 2k gas banks are the norm in a 15 minute TvZ. Imagine that gas turned into units (or the scv's doing the mining done so). There is a lot of room for improvement on the terran side.
There's nothing to spend the gas on in a standard M^4 or MTM play, but if you need to switch to ravens/starports and you don't have gas you're kinda screwed. Plus, going from ~70 scv's on 3base to ~80 scv's on 3base all mining minerals, it isn't very efficient and having a gas stockpile for techswitching is much more valuable.
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On April 25 2013 06:44 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:40 Abominous wrote:On April 25 2013 06:36 sparklyresidue wrote:On April 25 2013 06:33 DeathProfessor wrote:
I am just tired of Zerg acting like Terran is absurdly OP, Terran were way cooler to you guys IIRC when you were OP, also Protoss is a freakin JOKE and nobody seems to care, can Protoss begin whining yet? You guys have 3 in KR out of 16, in EU 0, no peeps outta you? Its always bang that Terran OP drum slowly.
Zerg have more representation in Code S KR, and according to my prediction using that win generator website, in WCS NA they will be beating Terran, top 8 will be 5 Zerg, 3 Terran and 1 Toss. Also my prediction is either Violet or Sen wins WCS NA. Life wins WCS KR.
Terran will win be called OP but Zerg will win everything. Still if Zerg keep talking Blizzard will have to listen and get ready for ZvZ until LotV. Yippie.
Zerg tears are made of acid and erode eSports. The quality of this post is astounding, where do I buy more? It is actually really weird whereas in Proleague, Protoss' thrive. It's not that weird, Protoss suit preparing for a bo1. The more sets the more difficult, can't do the same builds all the time, especially in WoL PvZ if you want a good example.
Well, sOs and Rain have shown some great games outside proleague. I think Korean Protoss is gonna be fine, whereas I'm not so sure for foreign.
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On April 25 2013 06:35 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:30 pak150 wrote:
Bel'shir Vestige seems like the graveyard for zerg players lately. It seems that most of the ZvX games I've watched on that map have gone against the zerg. Maybe the narrowness and distance between 4th and 5th? Static defense at 3rd, take 4 above main. Zergs have been spoiled for years. Terran and protos use buildings and static defence to defend. Its time for zerg to do that aswell. Its a transition i know...
I think you're right about taking the 4th above the main -- less area to traverse
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On April 25 2013 06:45 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:29 m0ck wrote:
One thing about balance (and nothing based on today, bly's failed aggression often put him far behind), it is somewhat disturbing what terrans are able to do with extremely inefficient builds. 2k gas banks are the norm in a 15 minute TvZ. Imagine that gas turned into units (or the scv's doing the mining done so). There is a lot of room for improvement on the terran side. There's nothing to spend the gas on in a standard M^4 or MTM play, but if you need to switch to ravens/starports and you don't have gas you're kinda screwed. Plus, going from ~70 scv's on 3base to ~80 scv's on 3base all mining minerals, it isn't very efficient and having a gas stockpile for techswitching is much more valuable.
If you're planning for the long game, fine. But then it might be more helpful to play more defensively rather than the rally style of mmmm.
If you can skip 6-8 scv's (and the cost of refineries) that would otherwise be mining gas never meant to be used, it's almost another orbital, which would allow you to produce more mmmm (or hit a stronger timing). You might be right that it is the stronger option overall to build up the gas as a safety precaution against the possibility of BLs, but my guess is that it happens more due to force of habit. When expanding, build refineries.
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On April 25 2013 06:58 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:45 GTPGlitch wrote:On April 25 2013 06:29 m0ck wrote:
One thing about balance (and nothing based on today, bly's failed aggression often put him far behind), it is somewhat disturbing what terrans are able to do with extremely inefficient builds. 2k gas banks are the norm in a 15 minute TvZ. Imagine that gas turned into units (or the scv's doing the mining done so). There is a lot of room for improvement on the terran side. There's nothing to spend the gas on in a standard M^4 or MTM play, but if you need to switch to ravens/starports and you don't have gas you're kinda screwed. Plus, going from ~70 scv's on 3base to ~80 scv's on 3base all mining minerals, it isn't very efficient and having a gas stockpile for techswitching is much more valuable. If you're planning for the long game, fine. But then it might be more helpful to play more defensively rather than the rally style of mmmm. If you can skip 6-8 scv's (and the cost of refineries) that would otherwise be mining gas never meant to be used, it's almost another orbital, which would allow you to produce more mmmm (or hit a stronger timing). You might be right that it is the stronger option overall to build up the gas as a safety precaution against the possibility of BLs, but my guess is that it happens more due to force of habit. When expanding, build refineries.
Going for the somewhat standard reaper expand into 3CC+hellions is kinda funky. At first, you need almost no gas since your money goes into hellions, scvs, CC, engineering bay and barracks. Then suddenly you need a ton for upgrades, medivacs and reactors.
The timings work out so that you get just enough gas by taking your 5-6th instantly when you take your third. What a player could do is probably to cut SCVs a bit earlier and then take gas SCVs out of gas around the time you have 2/2 started. That's when gas seems to start stacking.
This doesn't do a whole lot though, maybe add one barracks not producing 100%.
However, in the late game, I think we should see more players remove SCVs from gas as they lose workers to harass etc. Like you say, no use mining when you have 2000+ banked.
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On April 25 2013 07:07 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 06:58 m0ck wrote:On April 25 2013 06:45 GTPGlitch wrote:On April 25 2013 06:29 m0ck wrote:
One thing about balance (and nothing based on today, bly's failed aggression often put him far behind), it is somewhat disturbing what terrans are able to do with extremely inefficient builds. 2k gas banks are the norm in a 15 minute TvZ. Imagine that gas turned into units (or the scv's doing the mining done so). There is a lot of room for improvement on the terran side. There's nothing to spend the gas on in a standard M^4 or MTM play, but if you need to switch to ravens/starports and you don't have gas you're kinda screwed. Plus, going from ~70 scv's on 3base to ~80 scv's on 3base all mining minerals, it isn't very efficient and having a gas stockpile for techswitching is much more valuable. If you're planning for the long game, fine. But then it might be more helpful to play more defensively rather than the rally style of mmmm. If you can skip 6-8 scv's (and the cost of refineries) that would otherwise be mining gas never meant to be used, it's almost another orbital, which would allow you to produce more mmmm (or hit a stronger timing). You might be right that it is the stronger option overall to build up the gas as a safety precaution against the possibility of BLs, but my guess is that it happens more due to force of habit. When expanding, build refineries. Going for the somewhat standard reaper expand into 3CC+hellions is kinda funky. At first, you need almost no gas since your money goes into hellions, scvs, CC, engineering bay and barracks. Then suddenly you need a ton for upgrades, medivacs and reactors. The timings work out so that you get just enough gas by taking your 5-6th instantly when you take your third. What a player could do is probably to cut SCVs a bit earlier and then take gas SCVs out of gas around the time you have 2/2 started. That's when gas seems to start stacking. This doesn't do a whole lot though, maybe add one barracks not producing 100%. However, in the late game, I think we should see more players remove SCVs from gas as they lose workers to harass etc. Like you say, no use mining when you have 2000+ banked.
Yeah, I'll need to pay closer attention to the timings to see the ebb and flow of the gas income and expenditure in detail. It may be that at the point in time in the game where the effect of 6-8 scvs not being produced is felt, a mineral difference of ~400 in units will not make or break you.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On April 25 2013 06:30 pak150 wrote:
Bel'shir Vestige seems like the graveyard for zerg players lately. It seems that most of the ZvX games I've watched on that map have gone against the zerg. Maybe the narrowness and distance between 4th and 5th?
TvZ: 13-11 (54.2%) | ZvP: 21-10 (67.7%)
stats are fine
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EPT
