oh wow, Innovation doesn't use the automatic worker rally. I think he was 1-2 seconds late on the workers. I'm quite curious now how many pros use the automatic rally and how many don't want to do it
in hots new, the BADASS, KICKASS terran music that started every match in WoL with terran in it now doesnt start the match anymore
that music seriously was 99% of the energy of WoL matches containing terran. remember the MMA vs Idra days back at MLG... that music... pumping you up at the start of the game...
On April 08 2013 17:44 centergoliath4 wrote: WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN to starcraft 2
in hots new, the BADASS, KICKASS terran music that started every match in WoL with terran in it now doesnt start the match anymore
that music seriously was 99% of the energy of WoL matches containing terran. remember the MMA vs Idra days back at MLG... that music... pumping you up at the start of the game...
On April 08 2013 17:43 Yello wrote: oh wow, Innovation doesn't use the automatic worker rally. I think he was 1-2 seconds late on the workers. I'm quite curious now how many pros use the automatic rally and how many don't want to do it
I think it's because of the custom lobby they are using.
Basically they just stall the game in the beginning so the worker rally doesn't work.
On April 08 2013 17:43 Yello wrote: oh wow, Innovation doesn't use the automatic worker rally. I think he was 1-2 seconds late on the workers. I'm quite curious now how many pros use the automatic rally and how many don't want to do it
I think it's because of the custom lobby they are using.
Basically they just stall the game in the beginning so the worker rally doesn't work.
Hm, I don't know how that works out. If the game is just paused it shouldn't make a difference, the workers should still get rallied. But I don't know what exactly SPL changed for that lobby.
Wow Action, really nice move! Baneling drops on the mineral line? Action, you've earned a fan today!
On April 08 2013 17:43 Yello wrote: oh wow, Innovation doesn't use the automatic worker rally. I think he was 1-2 seconds late on the workers. I'm quite curious now how many pros use the automatic rally and how many don't want to do it
I think it's because of the custom lobby they are using.
Basically they just stall the game in the beginning so the worker rally doesn't work.
Hm, I don't know how that works out. If the game is just paused it shouldn't make a difference, the workers should still get rallied. But I don't know what exactly SPL changed for that lobby.
Wow Action, really nice move!
SPL uses a special custom map, the countdown you see before the game starts is BW-esque, in fact the time you see that countdown, the game is already loaded.
Jeez, Bogus's macro is just relentless. Action's holding on for now, but I'm afraid it'll snowball against him eventually even with the fun bane bombs.
Innovation really is amazing, not getting deterred in the slightest having lost so many SCVs, just building them all up again while continuing to successfully push Action.
His multitasking, micro, decision-making and composure is soooo stellar.
I love that Action is doing this. His supply is way down but banelings are part of that.
Nydus Worm defence is nice, but it'd still be nice if they had an appropriate amount of hit points for their gas cost or Nydus Networks only cost minerals. {I shall never stop asking for one or the other! ;D}
This baneling play does tend to fizzle out if you lose enough economy or don't have enough normal army though.
the casters overlooked that boogus didnt lose any army value during the baneling harass and had a steady army rise all game long. Up until this point, when he crushes action with attacks at all front
Having played zerg for most of my time in WoL and watching games like this makes me feel that it is nearly impossible to damage a Terran's econ by going for scvs.
I just dont get how innovation does it. It seemed to me like action was doing all the right moves, so many scv died, bogus still steamrolls. He is so good.
Am I the only person who didn't see this game as being close at all? Action was -30 supply the whole game but the commentators were acting like it was dead even. 40+ SCV kills and still didn't get near his supply.
Innovation handled most of that pretty well from what I could tell...apart from losing so many SCVs from late/no reactions to the baneling drops. Not whining here, but that might have been very different without MULEs. :Þ
@Greatzerg: Banelings use half supply but fair amounts of money for that (1 marauder = 100/25 & 2 supply, 4 banelings = 200/100 & 2 supply), so supply will usually be low when going baneling heavy. He lost too many drones to the marine pressure though, I think.
action needed to gather his army at some point. He kept fighting with 2 ultras at a time and was a bit spread out. Innovation kind of forced it thou with aggression all over the map. Cool game and a great start to this match
On April 08 2013 17:57 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: What a cool game. I mean Bogus was significantly ahead in supply all game, but nice effort by Action. He did better than I thought.
Action did all the cool and innovative stuff but Bogus played impressively solid with superior macro, micro and multitasking. One hell of a starting game for this match!
On April 08 2013 17:58 SayTT wrote: the casters overlooked that boogus didnt lose any army value during the baneling harass and had a steady army rise all game long. Up until this point, when he crushes action with attacks at all front
Putting it nicely, the casters are... not very good.
On April 08 2013 17:58 greatZERG wrote: Am I the only person who didn't see this game as being close at all? Action was -30 supply the whole game but the commentators were acting like it was dead even. 40+ SCV kills and still didn't get near his supply.
I feel exactly the same way. The commentators aren't calling these games well at all. Whiplash keeps talking about the "high level" of play in this game, but it was really just Innovation taking apart Action left and right. Cute stuff from action, but this game was never close.
Casters didn't notice Innovation pulled workers off Gas to mitigate losing so many to the banelings.
Also Innovation wasn't losing army, just workers.
Action's drone count wasn't greedy enough, nor was his army strong enough after that. He essentially traded away a lot of gas (plus overlord speed/transport), but it seems he made a really poor choice to go into swarmhosts.
I liked the Nydus Worm usage, but I feel like all the baneling drops into the terran economy hurt him more than they helped. Replenishing SCVs is really easy and it made his army spread really thing and he couldn't defend his expansions because of that.
Zerg gave EVERYTHING he had (even droppin) against Terran and didn't even scratch him. I know Innovation is a godly player but this shows that Terran is just OP in some aspects. like 50 workers lost.... NP!
Action just could never rally enough units together to form an army he could really go on offense with. Innovation's macro just kept him on defense the entire time.
The baneling drops were cute but they just weren't enough to stall Innovation's economy to a point where Action could actually build a legitimate army, so he just kept defending until eventually he folded.
On April 08 2013 17:58 FinestHour wrote: i mean action never got a supply lead even after killing 50 scvs that was pretty foreboding of how the game was going
Pretty much, but damn that was cool. Fast 3 CC let Innovation catch back up really quickly with Mules/Triple production.
think he made too many SHs in the end, they are OKish vs mines but ultimately useless vs mass bio, especially when used just to defend. would love to see him save up that gas for more ultras
On April 08 2013 18:01 Highwinds wrote: meh casters hype the loser again and again... Huk yesterday. today action.. If they just look at supply or upgrades it's not even close games. -.-
entertainin game. action showed some cool harass but i feel like this relies on the terran trying harder to defend than attack for it to work
yeah the casters never take a single note of macro
On April 08 2013 17:58 greatZERG wrote: Am I the only person who didn't see this game as being close at all? Action was -30 supply the whole game but the commentators were acting like it was dead even. 40+ SCV kills and still didn't get near his supply.
I feel exactly the same way. The commentators aren't calling these games well at all. Whiplash keeps talking about the "high level" of play in this game, but it was really just Innovation taking apart Action left and right. Cute stuff from action, but this game was never close.
Yeah they kept talking about how well Action was doing when Innovation was at like 190 supply and Action was at 138 supply.
Zerg gave EVERYTHING he had (even droppin) against Terran and didn't even scratch him. I know Innovation is a godly player but this shows that Terran is just OP in some aspects.
It doesn't show that at all. It just shows that what Action was doing wasn't effective at actually denying Innovation's macro, he was just constantly delaying him but never really causing any real damage.
Just because something doesn't work it doesn't mean a race is overpowered it just means a strategy didn't work. Honestly Action would've been better off just using Mutalisks. The Swarm Hosts were more expensive, more supply heavy and just not effective enough especially considering they have no ability to actually counter attack while being spread out.
On April 08 2013 17:58 greatZERG wrote: Am I the only person who didn't see this game as being close at all? Action was -30 supply the whole game but the commentators were acting like it was dead even. 40+ SCV kills and still didn't get near his supply.
na, you're not alone. The whole game was basically Innovation being caught with his pants down to the drops, cleaning up the mess, being 20supply ahead and then starting to abuse the fact that Action didn't play mutalisks.
This game showed how cost effective terran bio with mules is. Impressive play by Action nonetheless, but combined cost of drops + nyduses + hive tech killed him. WHy is Blizzard limiting this game by insane cost of nydus is beyond me..
On April 08 2013 17:58 FinestHour wrote: i mean action never got a supply lead even after killing 50 scvs that was pretty foreboding of how the game was going
Pretty much, but damn that was cool. Fast 3 CC let Innovation catch back up really quickly with Mules/Triple production.
Well, Swarm hosts are overpriced for mid tier units anyway, so you dont get that supply easily.
Zerg gave EVERYTHING he had (even droppin) against Terran and didn't even scratch him. I know Innovation is a godly player but this shows that Terran is just OP in some aspects. like 50 workers lost.... NP!
User was warned for this post
how does this show balance? the zerg did economy harass but ignored the army and died...
that's like if a zerg made only mutalisks and no lings or blings to deal with the army. you won't win by just fighting workers most games
On April 08 2013 18:01 Highwinds wrote: meh casters hype the loser again and again... Huk yesterday. today action.. If they just look at supply or upgrades it's not even close games. -.-
entertainin game. action showed some cool harass but i feel like this relies on the terran trying harder to defend than attack for it to work
To be fair that is their job to keep game interesting.
Ah, people, lay off the casters this time. I think they were just intended to focus on where the action was and Action was doing exciting things you don't see too often, so they focussed on his perspective. I'm not sure they really meant to suggest he was way ahead and SNM WAS right that keeping that base could prove critical, but enough damage actually WAS dealt too (I believe) and Bogus was just excellent.
On April 08 2013 17:58 warmus wrote: I just dont get how innovation does it. It seemed to me like action was doing all the right moves, so many scv died, bogus still steamrolls. He is so good.
I think a big thing is that nothing dents him. He can lose 40 SCVs in entirely unexpected baneling bombs and not give a shit...he'll still be playing at 100% capacity, relentlessly macroing and recognizing and utilizing every advantage he can take.
Actions early game was really good though in my opinion, anticipating where the hellions would go and getting early Overlord speed to deny mines was fun to watch.
But after that he went into really ineffective trades all game long.
On April 08 2013 17:58 greatZERG wrote: Am I the only person who didn't see this game as being close at all? Action was -30 supply the whole game but the commentators were acting like it was dead even. 40+ SCV kills and still didn't get near his supply.
I feel exactly the same way. The commentators aren't calling these games well at all. Whiplash keeps talking about the "high level" of play in this game, but it was really just Innovation taking apart Action left and right. Cute stuff from action, but this game was never close.
Did you miss Bogus losing 40+ scvs? Granted he's terran, and his units are insanely cost effective so it doesn't really matter, but yeah, Action did MAJOR damage with the baneling drop. It's just that terran doesn't need scvs nearly as much as the other races need their harvesters.
On April 08 2013 18:02 Pitrocelli wrote: This game showed how cost effective terran bio with mules is. Impressive play by Action nonetheless, but combined cost of drops + nyduses + hive tech killed him. WHy is Blizzard limiting this game by insane cost of nydus is beyond me..
I think its because they think Nydus is too OP. As in, guys with poor map awareness succumb to them too well.
The depressing thing was that innovation never skipped a beat. At no point in time was it ever close. Even when scvs were wiped out from all three bases.
Action's spell-heavy ZvT play towards the end of BW was incredible, it's good to see him try and emulate it in HOTS ZvT.
I hope this style of Zerg is a glimpse into what the future holds. It looks difficult to pull off, but it is beautiful to watch so many variations in attack in one game. I think against less mechanically robust Terrans he could've won.
On April 08 2013 18:02 Pitrocelli wrote: This game showed how cost effective terran bio with mules is. Impressive play by Action nonetheless, but combined cost of drops + nyduses + hive tech killed him. WHy is Blizzard limiting this game by insane cost of nydus is beyond me..
I think its because they think Nydus is too OP. As in, guys with poor map awareness succumb to them too well.
The never ending plight of the Bronzies vs the pros.
Zerg gave EVERYTHING he had (even droppin) against Terran and didn't even scratch him. I know Innovation is a godly player but this shows that Terran is just OP in some aspects. like 50 workers lost.... NP!
User was warned for this post
you must take into consideration at what time the terran expanded and for how long he saturated the bases, even though he got harassed he had a steady income base for a long time. He had time to build both infrastructure and had enough CC to rebuild the mineral income that is the only thing needed in late game to smash a zerg.
Hopefully Swarm Host builds will keep losing until Blizzard just does away with them. The bastard child of Lurkers and Brood Lords, I have never seen them do anything interesting. With the decreased role of Fungal Growth, maybe we could see the root removed from that, too...
I would really like if zerg harassing would be somewhat effective, the reaction time from bogus was pretty appalling - Ts are used to simply being safe. And this game is a pretty good demonstration of why.
Hahaha, SNM now backtracking and sticking it to the people picking on their commentary this time by pointing out everything they want him to point out. Funny.
On April 08 2013 17:58 greatZERG wrote: Am I the only person who didn't see this game as being close at all? Action was -30 supply the whole game but the commentators were acting like it was dead even. 40+ SCV kills and still didn't get near his supply.
I feel exactly the same way. The commentators aren't calling these games well at all. Whiplash keeps talking about the "high level" of play in this game, but it was really just Innovation taking apart Action left and right. Cute stuff from action, but this game was never close.
Did you miss Bogus losing 40+ scvs? Granted he's terran, and his units are insanely cost effective so it doesn't really matter, but yeah, Action did MAJOR damage with the baneling drop. It's just that terran doesn't need scvs nearly as much as the other races need their harvesters.
he killed 40 SCVs when Bogus was actually ahead on workers. Bogus was at 70 workers to Actions ~55 and normally Zerg needs to be ahead. Action did merely catch up in workers with the drops and he didn't do anything to Bogus army at all.
Bogus had the huge army lead afterwards (because of better macro) and then attacked with superior micro and good multitasking with drops.
On April 08 2013 18:01 PredY wrote: think he made too many SHs in the end, they are OKish vs mines but ultimately useless vs mass bio, especially when used just to defend. would love to see him save up that gas for more ultras
in panic mode, Action thought those little mushroom could shoot spikes from underground....
ok I wont brought up this discussion again but it's pretty frustrated to see a band of bio run into zerg's expo with like five SHs worth of resource and kill everything with ease
On April 08 2013 18:06 M.R. McThundercrotch wrote: Hopefully Swarm Host builds will keep losing until Blizzard just does away with them. The bastard child of Lurkers and Brood Lords, I have never seen them do anything interesting. With the decreased role of Fungal Growth, maybe we could see the root removed from that, too...
Swarm Hosts are actually really good when used offensively but as for a defensive unit they are not very powerful.
The unit is going to take some time to really figure out but trust me, once the pros do people will change their minds about it.
On April 08 2013 17:58 greatZERG wrote: Am I the only person who didn't see this game as being close at all? Action was -30 supply the whole game but the commentators were acting like it was dead even. 40+ SCV kills and still didn't get near his supply.
I feel exactly the same way. The commentators aren't calling these games well at all. Whiplash keeps talking about the "high level" of play in this game, but it was really just Innovation taking apart Action left and right. Cute stuff from action, but this game was never close.
Did you miss Bogus losing 40+ scvs? Granted he's terran, and his units are insanely cost effective so it doesn't really matter, but yeah, Action did MAJOR damage with the baneling drop. It's just that terran doesn't need scvs nearly as much as the other races need their harvesters.
he killed 40 SCVs when Bogus was actually ahead on workers. Bogus was at 70 workers to Actions ~55 and normally Zerg needs to be ahead. Action did merely catch up in workers with the drops and he didn't do anything to Bogus army at all.
Bogus had the huge army lead afterwards (because of better macro) and then attacked with superior micro and good multitasking with drops.
70 drones vs 48 scvs. But with 3/4 CCs that is obviously not very much of a difference at all.
On April 08 2013 18:01 Emnjay808 wrote: Damn, Action looks very upset. He shouldn't be. That was a very good game.
He should be for his now 8-loss streak .
Action is only meeting strong opponents tho. It's a drag to watch that epic zerg when it happens. He loses confidence. TT Atleast Broejja is awesome every playoff.
On April 08 2013 17:58 greatZERG wrote: Am I the only person who didn't see this game as being close at all? Action was -30 supply the whole game but the commentators were acting like it was dead even. 40+ SCV kills and still didn't get near his supply.
I feel exactly the same way. The commentators aren't calling these games well at all. Whiplash keeps talking about the "high level" of play in this game, but it was really just Innovation taking apart Action left and right. Cute stuff from action, but this game was never close.
Did you miss Bogus losing 40+ scvs? Granted he's terran, and his units are insanely cost effective so it doesn't really matter, but yeah, Action did MAJOR damage with the baneling drop. It's just that terran doesn't need scvs nearly as much as the other races need their harvesters.
That's correct, but protoss and especially zerg can produce workers much faster. While Action was bombing he was also losing his fourth, and to get way ahead from the baneling bombs he would have wanted a fifth.
Investing in those bombs cost him a lot, and Innovation was able to use his superior army to make sure Action could not get too far ahead while he rebuilt his SCV count.
Then Action went for an army composition that did not work against Innovation, and he was far behind.
On April 08 2013 18:06 M.R. McThundercrotch wrote: Hopefully Swarm Host builds will keep losing until Blizzard just does away with them. The bastard child of Lurkers and Brood Lords, I have never seen them do anything interesting. With the decreased role of Fungal Growth, maybe we could see the root removed from that, too...
Swarm Hosts are actually really good when used offensively but as for a defensive unit they are not very powerful.
The unit is going to take some time to really figure out but trust me, once the pros do people will change their minds about it.
Seriously hope they don't remove swarm hosts. I"m actually having more fun playing with them online than I did with lurkers and I think they are good against Protoss or meching terran. (at least at my level of play )
On April 08 2013 17:58 greatZERG wrote: Am I the only person who didn't see this game as being close at all? Action was -30 supply the whole game but the commentators were acting like it was dead even. 40+ SCV kills and still didn't get near his supply.
I feel exactly the same way. The commentators aren't calling these games well at all. Whiplash keeps talking about the "high level" of play in this game, but it was really just Innovation taking apart Action left and right. Cute stuff from action, but this game was never close.
Did you miss Bogus losing 40+ scvs? Granted he's terran, and his units are insanely cost effective so it doesn't really matter, but yeah, Action did MAJOR damage with the baneling drop. It's just that terran doesn't need scvs nearly as much as the other races need their harvesters.
he killed 40 SCVs when Bogus was actually ahead on workers. Bogus was at 70 workers to Actions ~55 and normally Zerg needs to be ahead. Action did merely catch up in workers with the drops and he didn't do anything to Bogus army at all.
Bogus had the huge army lead afterwards (because of better macro) and then attacked with superior micro and good multitasking with drops.
70 drones vs 48 scvs. But with 3/4 CCs that is obviously not very much of a difference at all.
yeah, after the drops it was 70 drones to 48 SCVs. Before them (and Action droning) Bogus was ahead
and Bogus still had the better and bigger army and could damage Action
On April 08 2013 18:06 M.R. McThundercrotch wrote: Hopefully Swarm Host builds will keep losing until Blizzard just does away with them. The bastard child of Lurkers and Brood Lords, I have never seen them do anything interesting. With the decreased role of Fungal Growth, maybe we could see the root removed from that, too...
Swarm Hosts are actually really good when used offensively but as for a defensive unit they are not very powerful.
The unit is going to take some time to really figure out but trust me, once the pros do people will change their minds about it.
Seriously hope they don't remove swarm hosts. I"m actually having more fun playing with them online than I did with lurkers.
Well, they didn't remove Carriers, so there is hope yet.
On April 08 2013 18:01 PredY wrote: think he made too many SHs in the end, they are OKish vs mines but ultimately useless vs mass bio, especially when used just to defend. would love to see him save up that gas for more ultras
in panic mode, Action thought those little mushroom could shoot spikes from underground....
ok I wont brought up this discussion again but it's pretty frustrated to see a band of bio run into zerg's expo with like five SHs worth of resource and kill everything with ease
but wouldn't the same thing happen if there were 5 Broodlords in the base "guarding" it? Alone they just aren't that effective.
On April 08 2013 18:06 m0ck wrote: I would really like if zerg harassing would be somewhat effective, the reaction time from bogus was pretty appalling - Ts are used to simply being safe. And this game is a pretty good demonstration of why.
Yeah, definitely true. Baneling drops can be very potent against terran as well as protoss but fast reactions (and the right reaction) makes a huge difference and Innovation just let Action eat up his SCVs with too little consequence. I think buffed Nydus Worms (more hp probably) and possibly some further increased overlord speed (Maybe??) would help to make harassment including small drops here and there more effective. I don't see either change happening in a hurry, sadly.
On April 08 2013 18:01 PredY wrote: think he made too many SHs in the end, they are OKish vs mines but ultimately useless vs mass bio, especially when used just to defend. would love to see him save up that gas for more ultras
in panic mode, Action thought those little mushroom could shoot spikes from underground....
ok I wont brought up this discussion again but it's pretty frustrated to see a band of bio run into zerg's expo with like five SHs worth of resource and kill everything with ease
but wouldn't the same thing happen if there were 5 Broodlords in the base "guarding" it? Alone they just aren't that effective.
Yeah, SHs seem far more suited to offence than defence because in defence at least, they seem quite poor in small numbers or without support.
Mind was a freaking best in TvP in BW, he had amazing map control and zoning with tanks. HE could take games from Flash in TvT too just because he had such damn good tank placement.
On April 08 2013 18:06 m0ck wrote: I would really like if zerg harassing would be somewhat effective, the reaction time from bogus was pretty appalling - Ts are used to simply being safe. And this game is a pretty good demonstration of why.
Yeah, definitely true. Baneling drops can be very potent against terran as well as protoss but fast reactions (and the right reaction) makes a huge difference and Innovation just let Action eat up his SCVs with too little consequence. I think buffed Nydus Worms (more hp probably) and possibly some further increased overlord speed (Maybe??) would help to make harassment including small drops here and there more effective. I don't see either change happening in a hurry, sadly.
Just cut gas cost for both Nydus worms and drop tech. It's just too expensive at the moment. (says the horribly biased Zerg )
zerg is put into a situation where they need to defend every area at once. put army in one area, terran drops other area, your screwed
only true solution to this is mutalisks, as life probably figured out. nydus is too expensive to really get the job done in the time needed to defend every area properly. but if you got 20 mutalisks with overlord spread you can prevent all the drops (and vikings cant beat the mutas) then work your way towards ultra/ling/bane with some infestors for fungal
swarm hosts are strong units. the problem is the swarm hosts just arent good in doing what zerg NEEDS against terran, and that is defending against drops and dealing with them effectively. Swarmhosts cannot do that, and since terrans will be dropping every game you need mutas every game.
swarmhosts are good in a straight up fight but thats not what terran will be doing. swarmhosts do not provide what zerg needs against terran, soon good zergs will be going muta every game against terran until some other option is made to exist.
On April 08 2013 18:14 eviltomahawk wrote: Swarm Hosts should get the upgrade from campaign where they can instantly teleport around the map. That should solve some defensive woes.
On April 08 2013 18:11 centergoliath4 wrote: zerg is put into a situation where they need to defend every area at once. put army in one area, terran drops other area, your screwed
only true solution to this is mutalisks, as life probably figured out. nydus is too expensive to really get the job done in the time needed to defend every area properly. but if you got 20 mutalisks with overlord spread you can prevent all the drops (and vikings cant beat the mutas) then work your way towards ultra/ling/bane with some infestors for fungal
swarm hosts are strong units. the problem is the swarm hosts just arent good in doing what zerg NEEDS against terran, and that is defending against drops and dealing with them effectively. Swarmhosts cannot do that, and since terrans will be dropping every game you need mutas every game.
swarmhosts are good in a straight up fight but thats not what terran will be doing. swarmhosts do not provide what zerg needs against terran, soon good zergs will be going muta every game against terran until some other option is made to exist.
It's pretty much the development stephano has gone through in the last week, now opening bling->muta every game against T. But it's very easy to lose those mutas on the way to infestor-BL and once/if they're gone, the game is close to being over.
*due to inability of infestor/BL to handle drops, I mean
On April 08 2013 18:10 SayTT wrote: Mind was a freaking best in TvP in BW, he had amazing map control and zoning with tanks. HE could take games from Flash in TvT too just because he had such damn good tank placement.
You're out of your mind...(npi) Mind was absolutely amazing at getting up to 3 bases then dying to arbiters/carriers almost every game. He was an absolute mental cripple in the mu. No clue why you're calling him a TvP beast, he was more of a punching bag.
On April 08 2013 18:11 centergoliath4 wrote: zerg is put into a situation where they need to defend every area at once. put army in one area, terran drops other area, your screwed
only true solution to this is mutalisks, as life probably figured out. nydus is too expensive to really get the job done in the time needed to defend every area properly. but if you got 20 mutalisks with overlord spread you can prevent all the drops (and vikings cant beat the mutas) then work your way towards ultra/ling/bane with some infestors for fungal
swarm hosts are strong units. the problem is the swarm hosts just arent good in doing what zerg NEEDS against terran, and that is defending against drops and dealing with them effectively. Swarmhosts cannot do that, and since terrans will be dropping every game you need mutas every game.
swarmhosts are good in a straight up fight but thats not what terran will be doing. swarmhosts do not provide what zerg needs against terran, soon good zergs will be going muta every game against terran until some other option is made to exist.
Yes, heavy ling bling muta is still the way to go for zerg mid-game. Life knows this, has always done it and continues to do it.
On April 08 2013 18:14 eviltomahawk wrote: Swarm Hosts should get the upgrade from campaign where they can instantly teleport around the map. That should solve some defensive woes.
Better give Terrans aoe Banshees to compensate.
And screw protoss!
You can have Zeratul.
He'll be a fast, stealthy assassin hero unit that depends on RNG for critical hits. Oh wait...
On April 08 2013 18:04 Megiddosc wrote: Granted he's terran, and his units are insanely cost effective so it doesn't really matter
What? Terran is cost effective? Did you watch highlevel TvZ the last 3 weeks? It is all about trading everywhere to not let the Zerg get too many ultras. Terran feels like Zerg should be.
On April 08 2013 18:04 Megiddosc wrote: It's just that terran doesn't need scvs nearly as much as the other races need their harvesters.
Only because there are MULEs, it doesnt mean that you can keep up with the economy when you lost so many workers.
I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
On April 08 2013 18:14 eviltomahawk wrote: Swarm Hosts should get the upgrade from campaign where they can instantly teleport around the map. That should solve some defensive woes.
Better give Terrans aoe Banshees to compensate.
try to make a bad design work. sounds like typical Blizzard eh
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
when david kim was asked about this he defined zerg completeness as in units of all 3 techs are being used so he feels zerg is complete now lololol
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
I have seen a fair few people use roach/hydra/viper but you have to have a shed load of static defense to go with it
On April 08 2013 18:04 Megiddosc wrote: Granted he's terran, and his units are insanely cost effective so it doesn't really matter
What? Terran is cost effective? Did you watch highlevel TvZ the last 3 weeks? It is all about trading everywhere to not let the Zerg get too many ultras. Terran feels like Zerg should be.
On April 08 2013 18:04 Megiddosc wrote: It's just that terran doesn't need scvs nearly as much as the other races need their harvesters.
Only because there are MULEs, it doesnt mean that you can keep up with the economy when you lost so many workers.
yup. pretty much the zergs hope is ultras now. mutas to defend long enough to get ultras
spending gas on infestors is kind of worthless. the best option is ultras
every 150 gas you spend on a infestor, 50 more gas would get you an ultra
3/3 ultralisks on creep are pretty much the only real unit zerg has that can beat terran. And they do a good job of it beating any even food force. only need 1-2 infestors to stop bio from kiting and its goodbye
im almost starting to think it might be better to skip pathogen glands and just get 2 infestors around the time the pits done and protect them heavily. they can provide occasional fungals, so when your ultra force is done you have a couple fungals and dats it to stop kiting
Imo, it's a good thing that some of the new maps are named after areas prominent in the campaign. (Korhal floating island) I think they also should have a map with the Zerus theme, and in general they should be making references to the campaign even in the maps, for instance with Mengsk statues and whatnot. I think that's more engaging and memorable for casual viewers.
On April 08 2013 18:23 Grumbels wrote: Imo, it's a good thing that some of the new maps are named after areas prominent in the campaign. (Korhal floating island) I think they also should have a map with the Zerus theme, and in general they should be making references to the campaign even in the maps, for instance with Mengsk statues and whatnot. I think that's more engaging and memorable for casual viewers.
On April 08 2013 18:23 Grumbels wrote: Imo, it's a good thing that some of the new maps are named after areas prominent in the campaign. (Korhal floating island) I think they also should have a map with the Zerus theme, and in general they should be making references to the campaign even in the maps, for instance with Mengsk statues and whatnot. I think that's more engaging and memorable for casual viewers.
I agree. The graphic design in campaign missions wasn't bad either so I'd like to see those elements carry over too.
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
In TvZ Terran has the most versatile early game with multiple harassment options, but mid-game and late-game will eventually settle into nothing but marine, marauder, mine, medivac.
Zerg has the least versatile early and mid-game which will eventually settle into nothing but heavy ling, bling, mutalisk, but have more T3 options in broodlords, ultralisks, infestors and vipers.
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
In fact Terran T3 (except ghosts in TvP) is viable in nothing but late-game TvT.
TvZ will eventually settle with MMMM and TvP MMM+ghosts and vikings depending on the protoss tech choice.
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
In fact Terran T3 (except ghosts in TvP) is viable in nothing but late-game TvT.
Ravens are pretty common late game TvZ... don't use 'in fact' when you're spouting biased nonsense
I think my FPL is screwed either way from today, KT are the team I picked but I have Crazy on my anti, I need everyone bar Crazy to win to pull it to the ace :/
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
In fact Terran T3 (except ghosts in TvP) is viable in nothing but late-game TvT.
Ravens are pretty common late game TvZ... don't use 'in fact' when you're spouting biased nonsense
This is a lie. I haven't seen any raven being used in TvZ in Proleague. Raven is not cost effective because the spells are not reliable at all. Spells with 5 seconds delay are a joke.
On April 08 2013 18:29 Otolia wrote: Not putting Flash in the first 4 players is going to come back and bite KT in the ass ...
It doesnt matter if the other players can't win a single match. This is not winners league you know?...
Look at my post count ? Do you think I ignore that it's not WL ?
Having your best player in the first 4 guarantee a 5th match which gives you one more chance to take the match into the ace game. It would not effectively double the probability the KT has to win the game (games aren't independent) after the first 3 games lost but it would increase it nonetheless.
On April 08 2013 18:36 paradoxOO9 wrote: I think my FPL is screwed either way from today, KT are the team I picked but I have Crazy on my anti, I need everyone bar Crazy to win to pull it to the ace :/
Bisu 4 Innovation 3 Trap 3
Doing well today, and I have KT as my team so I'm hoping for 4-3 STX Soul where Innovation wins the Ace match, for a perfect finish for my FPL today.
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
In fact Terran T3 (except ghosts in TvP) is viable in nothing but late-game TvT.
Ravens are pretty common late game TvZ... don't use 'in fact' when you're spouting biased nonsense
This is a lie. I haven't seen any raven being used in TvZ in Proleague. Raven is not cost effective because the spells are not reliable at all.
Bomber uses Ravens in almost every single late game TvZ he plays, usually to great effect as well.
On April 08 2013 18:36 paradoxOO9 wrote: I think my FPL is screwed either way from today, KT are the team I picked but I have Crazy on my anti, I need everyone bar Crazy to win to pull it to the ace :/
Bisu 4 Innovation 3 Trap 3
Doing well today, and I have KT as my team so I'm hoping for 4-3 STX Soul where Innovation wins the Ace match, for a perfect finish for my FPL today.
I have Innovation as my captain, any chance you could shine some light on would actually be better for my points? This is the first time I have actually done FPL. Quite lucky that I am being pulled up by Argo and Jaedong really, and Bisu for 2 points was too cheap to pass up
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
In fact Terran T3 (except ghosts in TvP) is viable in nothing but late-game TvT.
Ravens are pretty common late game TvZ... don't use 'in fact' when you're spouting biased nonsense
This is a lie. I haven't seen any raven being used in TvZ in Proleague. Raven is not cost effective because the spells are not reliable at all.
Bomber uses Ravens in almost every single late game TvZ he plays, usually to great effect as well.
either: -shit I have too much resource lets dump it into raven -shit cant beat ultra/whatever strong zerg composition. Lets pray on HSM
On April 08 2013 18:36 paradoxOO9 wrote: I think my FPL is screwed either way from today, KT are the team I picked but I have Crazy on my anti, I need everyone bar Crazy to win to pull it to the ace :/
Bisu 4 Innovation 3 Trap 3
Doing well today, and I have KT as my team so I'm hoping for 4-3 STX Soul where Innovation wins the Ace match, for a perfect finish for my FPL today.
I have Innovation as my captain, any chance you could shine some light on would actually be better for my points? This is the first time I have actually done FPL
The score of the captain is only used to determine tiebreakers
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
In fact Terran T3 (except ghosts in TvP) is viable in nothing but late-game TvT.
Ravens are pretty common late game TvZ... don't use 'in fact' when you're spouting biased nonsense
This is a lie. I haven't seen any raven being used in TvZ in Proleague. Raven is not cost effective because the spells are not reliable at all.
Bomber uses Ravens in almost every single late game TvZ he plays, usually to great effect as well.
That's true, I didn't think of Ravens. I think they'll be phased out in favor of more MMMM though, or only see use when the zerg player has gone very heavily into mutas, and even in that scenario they don't add much that more MMMM doesn't, and costs more.
Oh dear, Whiplash, with your poor pronunciation and frighteningly incomplete vocabulary. Zest is peel (or the thinnest outside layer of it at least). "Zesting" is not even a common verb as you can just peel or grate zest.
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
In fact Terran T3 (except ghosts in TvP) is viable in nothing but late-game TvT.
Ravens are pretty common late game TvZ... don't use 'in fact' when you're spouting biased nonsense
This is a lie. I haven't seen any raven being used in TvZ in Proleague. Raven is not cost effective because the spells are not reliable at all.
Bomber uses Ravens in almost every single late game TvZ he plays, usually to great effect as well.
That's true, I didn't think of Ravens. I think they'll be phased out in favor of more MMMM though, or only see use when the zerg player has gone very heavily into mutas, and even in that scenario they don't add much that more MMMM doesn't, and costs more.
Ravens are really good against Broodlord-Corruptor compositions because they clump up quite a lot and you spreading them in a fight is pretty difficult. They don't do much against Ultras though and almost nobody goes for Broodlord-based lategame in ZvT anymore in HotS. Having more Marauders or Medivacs is better against Ultras than using your supply on Ravens
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
In fact Terran T3 (except ghosts in TvP) is viable in nothing but late-game TvT.
Ravens are pretty common late game TvZ... don't use 'in fact' when you're spouting biased nonsense
This is a lie. I haven't seen any raven being used in TvZ in Proleague. Raven is not cost effective because the spells are not reliable at all.
Bomber uses Ravens in almost every single late game TvZ he plays, usually to great effect as well.
That's true, I didn't think of Ravens. I think they'll be phased out in favor of more MMMM though, or only see use when the zerg player has gone very heavily into mutas, and even in that scenario they don't add much that more MMMM doesn't, and costs more.
Ravens work quite well against BL/Corruptor, you just don't see many Zergs use that composition anymore because of how good the changed ultralisk is.
On April 08 2013 18:36 paradoxOO9 wrote: I think my FPL is screwed either way from today, KT are the team I picked but I have Crazy on my anti, I need everyone bar Crazy to win to pull it to the ace :/
Bisu 4 Innovation 3 Trap 3
Doing well today, and I have KT as my team so I'm hoping for 4-3 STX Soul where Innovation wins the Ace match, for a perfect finish for my FPL today.
I have Innovation as my captain, any chance you could shine some light on would actually be better for my points? This is the first time I have actually done FPL
The score of the captain is only used to determine tiebreakers
Cheers! Kinda gotta hope Crazy wins now which is a bit painful to say though
Well that's a disappointment, although many people had Zest on their main FPL (and I don't) so that's fine.
I actually think Crazy, Flash and Stats can take these three games...pretty stupid decision-making by KT to have both Action and Mind in the first four and neither Flash or Crazy to reliably take wins.
Are there zero STX fans here? It's funny seeing only KT fans complaining without anyone being happy xD I personally don't care who wins this one, just an observation.
On April 08 2013 18:55 HolyArrow wrote: Are there zero STX fans here? It's funny seeing only KT fans complaining without anyone being happy xD I personally don't care who wins this one, just an observation.
On April 08 2013 18:55 HolyArrow wrote: Are there zero STX fans here? It's funny seeing only KT fans complaining without anyone being happy xD I personally don't care who wins this one, just an observation.
On April 08 2013 18:55 HolyArrow wrote: Are there zero STX fans here? It's funny seeing only KT fans complaining without anyone being happy xD I personally don't care who wins this one, just an observation.
If so, I think Khan and KT today made great mistakes by putting strong players so late in the lineup that they may end up going 0-4, instead of, say, 2-4.
On April 08 2013 18:18 Megiddosc wrote: I just like how Blizzard has always said that they made Terran the most versatile because Wings of Liberty was the Terran expansion. So now with HotS, what is Zerg's versatility? Is there anything other than ling/bane/muta that could effectively do anything, or is our versatility nonexistant? Hopefully something will eventually be discovered.
Think about TvP. Sure terran has a few different openers but after that there is no versatility at all for terran. I would say zergs has more options against T than T has against P. I think we should wait for the players to develop the meta and see what happens.
In fact Terran T3 (except ghosts in TvP) is viable in nothing but late-game TvT.
Ravens are pretty common late game TvZ... don't use 'in fact' when you're spouting biased nonsense
This is a lie. I haven't seen any raven being used in TvZ in Proleague. Raven is not cost effective because the spells are not reliable at all.
Bomber uses Ravens in almost every single late game TvZ he plays, usually to great effect as well.
That's true, I didn't think of Ravens. I think they'll be phased out in favor of more MMMM though, or only see use when the zerg player has gone very heavily into mutas, and even in that scenario they don't add much that more MMMM doesn't, and costs more.
Ravens work quite well against BL/Corruptor, you just don't see many Zergs use that composition anymore because of how good the changed ultralisk is.
Yes, why use BL/Corruptor that's become riskier against the improved HSM when you can use ling, bling, muta, ultra, infestor to swarm the terran MMMM? Good use of infested terrans and zerglings temporarily make the terran army very vulnerable to devastating surrounds, and even if you lack the mutas to kill medivacs escaping with the bio, you can kill all the essential mines and contain the terran.
On April 08 2013 18:55 HolyArrow wrote: Are there zero STX fans here? It's funny seeing only KT fans complaining without anyone being happy xD I personally don't care who wins this one, just an observation.
There are like 4
That's pretty sad :|
I think quite a lot of people are still fans of players rather than fans of teams since player tournaments are much more established and important than team tournaments in SC2.
At least for me it's like this: I support the players (see signature/quote) I like much more than any team.
Ok Classic is gonna lose this and Flash is going to win. Stats just has to win his game so we get a Flash vs Innovation acematch and I become a FPL millionaire! :D
Actually, with the chin and the downward-slanted open mouth, Classic looks somewhat like an Altmer or maybe a Bosmer, I'd have to load Skyrim to decide which.
So I assume what happened was Crazy watched Stephanos stream earlier, saw him doing this build, did it on ladder once, and said "ok, lets bring this to the mainstage".
On April 08 2013 19:16 Ketch wrote: Imagine if those bases were scouted a bit earlier
Imagine those stargates scouted by that overlord. Or those Zerglings. Or that attack actually defended. Or those Swarm Hosts burrowed in time and not unburrowed with phoenixes on top of them.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
On April 08 2013 19:16 Ketch wrote: Imagine if those bases were scouted a bit earlier
Imagine those stargates scouted by that overlord. Or those Zerglings. Or that attack actually defended. Or those Swarm Hosts burrowed in time and not unburrowed with phoenixes on top of them.
you just cant do jack shit by protecting SHs with queen. Classic tries hard to make that game funny
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
HSL, Oz vs Monster. Kinda weird and scrappy games but Monster shows that Swarm Hosts can be used if you know what you are doing.
Also let's wait till GSL Code S is finished, we are still just at the start of the season and strategies are still being figured out
Haha, the casters need to learn to hold off talking for about 10 seconds after they are told they are off air to be sure. They're still new apparently. STILL.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
as far as I concern, pros refuse to go SHs in GSTL/GSL/SPL. And when they did, it's pretty much a fuckin joke. The only fairly good usage is a game on DMZ in which terran tried to be as passive as possible (and still won)
On April 08 2013 19:17 sharkie wrote: I will never understand playing the best players last
If no-one else can win then it's just gonna be 2-4 instead of 0-4.
Which is better, since map wins matter in PL.
With so many teams very close in match W-L, the maps may decide who makes playoffs and who doesn't. Coaches need to start using their great players earlier in lineups or they are missing so many potential map wins from badly lost matches.
Khan and KT both making the same mistake about this. It's amazing and terrible.
On April 08 2013 19:21 opterown wrote: honestly they should change the captain format, it's smarter to have a 1-pointer as your captain than flash, etc.
Not always. High-pointers generally get fielded and win more often than low-pointers, but if for some reason yours doesn't you'll be stuck with all that trade value.
It's an exciting risk IMO: either choose a low-pointer who may not gain a lot of points as captain but save the trade value for players that can be traded, or choose a high-pointer who may get a lot of points but can't be traded if he doesn't.
On April 08 2013 19:21 opterown wrote: honestly they should change the captain format, it's smarter to have a 1-pointer as your captain than flash, etc.
Not always. High-pointers generally get fielded and win more often than low-pointers, but if for some reason yours doesn't you'll be stuck with all that trade value.
It's an exciting risk IMO; either choose a low-pointer who may not gain a lot of points as captain but save the trade value for players that can get traded, or choose a high-pointer who may get a lot of points but can't be traded if he doesn't.
nah, choosing a 1-pointer to get team win points is actually extremely efficient, since it often means you'll be able to afford ace-level players over a mid-tier player (the difference between, say, herO and bong). monk posted something about it fairly recently with how the point values are set up. the fact that captains cannot be traded means that you should choose a low-point player, since the benefit of a captain (breaks tiebreakers) is actually very small. tiebreakers are only useful if you're top10ish anyway, and at that point, there usually is a big difference between points anyway so there is no need for itebreakers
having captains get extra +1 point for each win would mean a lot more.
On April 08 2013 19:21 opterown wrote: honestly they should change the captain format, it's smarter to have a 1-pointer as your captain than flash, etc.
Not always. High-pointers generally get fielded and win more often than low-pointers, but if for some reason yours doesn't you'll be stuck with all that trade value.
It's an exciting risk IMO; either choose a low-pointer who may not gain a lot of points as captain but save the trade value for players that can get traded, or choose a high-pointer who may get a lot of points but can't be traded if he doesn't.
nah, choosing a 1-pointer to get team win points is actually extremely efficient, since it often means you'll be able to afford ace-level players over a mid-tier player (the difference between, say, herO and bong). monk posted something about it fairly recently with how the point values are set up. the fact that captains cannot be traded means that you should choose a low-point player, since the benefit of a captain (breaks tiebreakers) is actually very small. tiebreakers are only useful if you're top10ish anyway, and at that point, there usually is a big difference between points anyway so there is no need for itebreakers
having captains get extra +1 point for each win would mean a lot more.
I agree, an extra +1 for captain wins and ace wins would be better. Tell monk this.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
as far as I concern, pros refuse to go SHs in GSTL/GSL/SPL. And when they did, it's pretty much a fuckin joke. The only fairly good usage is a game on DMZ in which terran tried to be as passive as possible (and still won)
I am quite convinced that pros aren't using them the way they should, I've seen better usage of Swarm Hosts from some lower level players than from the Pros. Most of them just burrow them and let them spawn Locusts, and don't unburrow them at all. If anything, you really should be active and aggressive with them, with proper support, so they don't just outright die if the enemy drops on them/flanks them.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
as far as I concern, pros refuse to go SHs in GSTL/GSL/SPL. And when they did, it's pretty much a fuckin joke. The only fairly good usage is a game on DMZ in which terran tried to be as passive as possible (and still won)
I am quite convinced that pros aren't using them the way they should, I've seen better usage of Swarm Hosts from some lower level players than from the Pros. Most of them just burrow them and let them spawn Locusts, and don't unburrow them at all. If anything, you really should be active and aggressive with them, with proper support, so they don't just outright die if the enemy drops on them/flanks them.
Those things are slow. Think of them as infestors that can't burrow move. If you catch a bunch of swarm hosts moving around, they die. If you catch an overlord floating around with swarm hosts, they die. Nydus isn't exactly very good for frequent redeployments, given it costs money to spawn a nydus and those things get sniped if you abandon them.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
Not really. Sting was just bad and the casters hyped Ret to the roof. We have to wait for KR Code S to finish, if something works well its gonna get used IMO.
On April 08 2013 19:21 opterown wrote: honestly they should change the captain format, it's smarter to have a 1-pointer as your captain than flash, etc.
I do the same. I picked Aria as my captain because I guessed he would get some team points from being on Woongjin. Your idea about making captain wins is interesting, but I fear it would exacerbate the problem of picking a high-point captain, because the difference between a good captain and a bad captain (who had the same point value at the start) is even larger.
On April 08 2013 19:17 sharkie wrote: I will never understand playing the best players last
If no-one else can win then it's just gonna be 2-4 instead of 0-4.
1. Map score is very important. 2. Ever heard of momentum? You can play much better with 1-2 than 0-2 behind
I thought that better players were sent out last because there would be more pressure on them. I imagine that the lesser players might feel happier knowing there is a kind of safety net behind them and that if they lose it isn't the end of the match for their team. I doubt going first has as much pressure as going out last.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
as far as I concern, pros refuse to go SHs in GSTL/GSL/SPL. And when they did, it's pretty much a fuckin joke. The only fairly good usage is a game on DMZ in which terran tried to be as passive as possible (and still won)
I am quite convinced that pros aren't using them the way they should, I've seen better usage of Swarm Hosts from some lower level players than from the Pros. Most of them just burrow them and let them spawn Locusts, and don't unburrow them at all. If anything, you really should be active and aggressive with them, with proper support, so they don't just outright die if the enemy drops on them/flanks them.
Those things are slow. Think of them as infestors that can't burrow move. If you catch a bunch of swarm hosts moving around, they die. If you catch an overlord floating around with swarm hosts, they die. Nydus isn't exactly very good for frequent redeployments, given it costs money to spawn a nydus and those things get sniped if you abandon them.
Yes, same as Siege Tanks. Guess what, Siege Tanks are used with Marine and Marauder/Hellbat support. Swarm Hosts should be too, with Roaches, Lings and Banelings as support units, and later with Infestors and Vipers. As I said, if you are making Swarm Hosts alone, then they got caught alone, you are doing it wrong, and you deserve to lose them.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
as far as I concern, pros refuse to go SHs in GSTL/GSL/SPL. And when they did, it's pretty much a fuckin joke. The only fairly good usage is a game on DMZ in which terran tried to be as passive as possible (and still won)
I am quite convinced that pros aren't using them the way they should, I've seen better usage of Swarm Hosts from some lower level players than from the Pros. Most of them just burrow them and let them spawn Locusts, and don't unburrow them at all. If anything, you really should be active and aggressive with them, with proper support, so they don't just outright die if the enemy drops on them/flanks them.
I have tried swarm hosts a lot vs bio terran and from all I have seen in Progames, swarm host usage comes down to: you attack somewhere with them, the bioplayer tries to attack the swarm hosts and fortifies a position facing the swarm hosts. The zerg is forced to protect the hosts with most of his army and the two players stalemate each others armies. Then the Terran just starts to drop everywhere while the main armies checkmate each other - assuming the swarmhosts ever got into a threatening position.
The thing why swarm hosts dont really work vs biomech is - widow mine/tank deal with most of the locusts very fast and most damage gets healed up by medivacs. Then, anytime a spawn is killed the bioplayer can stim in and the zerg player is forced to sacrifice some units as well to protect the hosts or he loses ground by retreating and letting the Terran move forward with mines/tanks. And all of that is only true if you even reach a stable position in the midgame that lets you push out with a bigger amount of units, which is very rare and usually means that you need 3-4bases and mutalisks+speedbanes and double/triple upgrades first.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
as far as I concern, pros refuse to go SHs in GSTL/GSL/SPL. And when they did, it's pretty much a fuckin joke. The only fairly good usage is a game on DMZ in which terran tried to be as passive as possible (and still won)
I am quite convinced that pros aren't using them the way they should, I've seen better usage of Swarm Hosts from some lower level players than from the Pros. Most of them just burrow them and let them spawn Locusts, and don't unburrow them at all. If anything, you really should be active and aggressive with them, with proper support, so they don't just outright die if the enemy drops on them/flanks them.
I have tried swarm hosts a lot vs bio terran and from all I have seen in Progames, swarm host usage comes down to: you attack somewhere with them, the bioplayer tries to attack the swarm hosts and fortifies a position facing the swarm hosts. The zerg is forced to protect the hosts with most of his army and the two players stalemate each others armies. Then the Terran just starts to drop everywhere while the main armies checkmate each other - assuming the swarmhosts ever got into a threatening position.
The thing why swarm hosts dont really work vs biomech is - widow mine/tank deal with most of the locusts very fast and most damage gets healed up by medivacs. Then, anytime a spawn is killed the bioplayer can stim in and the zerg player is forced to sacrifice some units as well to protect the hosts or he loses ground by retreating and letting the Terran move forward with mines/tanks. And all of that is only true if you even reach a stable position in the midgame that lets you push out with a bigger amount of units, which is very rare and usually means that you need 3-4bases and mutalisks+speedbanes and double/triple upgrades first.
I guess you didn't watch Blade55555's replay pack from GM Korea ladder? He is always opening with Muta/Ling/Bane into Swarm Hosts, making about 10 of them, and they are working great. Widow Mine and Tanks indeed do kill Locusts, but that is not bad for the Zerg, it is bad for the Terran. Locusts are free, Tanks wasting shots on them, or Widow Mines using rocket on them means less Tanks will shoot down your Lings and Banelings, and same goes for the Widow Mines that will lose their attack for next 40 seconds, which means that you can engage the Terran without worrying that you will lose half of your army in 2 seconds. Also, Blade is always having at least 10 Mutas to counter drops, if he loses them, he makes them again. From watching his replays, I feel that Swarm Hosts really make your engagements a lot easier. Later in the game you can also spread them to attack different bases while you are constantly attacking Terran army.
All in all, I must say that I am pretty disappointed with Pro's usage of the Swarm Hosts.
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
as far as I concern, pros refuse to go SHs in GSTL/GSL/SPL. And when they did, it's pretty much a fuckin joke. The only fairly good usage is a game on DMZ in which terran tried to be as passive as possible (and still won)
I am quite convinced that pros aren't using them the way they should, I've seen better usage of Swarm Hosts from some lower level players than from the Pros. Most of them just burrow them and let them spawn Locusts, and don't unburrow them at all. If anything, you really should be active and aggressive with them, with proper support, so they don't just outright die if the enemy drops on them/flanks them.
I have tried swarm hosts a lot vs bio terran and from all I have seen in Progames, swarm host usage comes down to: you attack somewhere with them, the bioplayer tries to attack the swarm hosts and fortifies a position facing the swarm hosts. The zerg is forced to protect the hosts with most of his army and the two players stalemate each others armies. Then the Terran just starts to drop everywhere while the main armies checkmate each other - assuming the swarmhosts ever got into a threatening position.
The thing why swarm hosts dont really work vs biomech is - widow mine/tank deal with most of the locusts very fast and most damage gets healed up by medivacs. Then, anytime a spawn is killed the bioplayer can stim in and the zerg player is forced to sacrifice some units as well to protect the hosts or he loses ground by retreating and letting the Terran move forward with mines/tanks. And all of that is only true if you even reach a stable position in the midgame that lets you push out with a bigger amount of units, which is very rare and usually means that you need 3-4bases and mutalisks+speedbanes and double/triple upgrades first.
I guess you didn't watch Blade55555's replay pack from GM Korea ladder? He is always opening with Muta/Ling/Bane into Swarm Hosts, making about 10 of them, and they are working great. Widow Mine and Tanks indeed do kill Locusts, but that is not bad for the Zerg, it is bad for the Terran. Locusts are free, Tanks wasting shots on them, or Widow Mines using rocket on them means less Tanks will shoot down your Lings and Banelings, and same goes for the Widow Mines that will lose their attack for next 40 seconds, which means that you can engage the Terran without worrying that you will lose half of your army in 2 seconds. Also, Blade is always having at least 10 Mutas to counter drops, if he lose them, he makes them again. From watching his replays, I feel that Swarm Hosts really make your engagements a lot easier. Later in the game you can also spread them to attack different bases while you are constantly attacking Terran army.
All in all, I must say that I am pretty disappointed with Pro's usage of the Swarm Hosts.
why is it bad for the Terran? Tank and Mine shots are free as well, mine cooldown is only slightly longer than Host cooldown. Also biohealth is free to a certain extend for the Terran.
I haven't seen those replays and I'm sure that swarmhost play - as well as mine play, hellbat play, viper player, protoss air play, medivac play... - will get massively better than it is right now. Might want to watch those replays. But for what I have seen and experienced myself you basically give the advantage in the hands of the more mobile player when going swarm hosts - which is a tankless Terran with speedmedivacs in TvZ.
why is it bad for the Terran? Tank and Mine shots are free as well, mine cooldown is only slightly longer than Host cooldown. Also biohealth is free to a certain extend for the Terran.
It's bad for the terran because those mines/tanks are not shooting at all the other units :p
On April 08 2013 19:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: "Just wait till SH get figured out." Hm, yeah. They are figured out. Out maneuver em with expos and units.
Dude wtf? Did you even watch the game? It was all-in vs all-in and Toss got the better all-in this time. How can you actually take this game and make any conclusion whatsoever about the use of swarm hosts?
Well, i havent seen good usage of SH so far. Care to link some good games with them?
Ret used swarmhosts pretty good at the first IEM of SC2. There's been other people using them well too. They're not a unit that can be figured out in a week or two and I'm glad about that, they've actually got a lot of depth to them.
as far as I concern, pros refuse to go SHs in GSTL/GSL/SPL. And when they did, it's pretty much a fuckin joke. The only fairly good usage is a game on DMZ in which terran tried to be as passive as possible (and still won)
I am quite convinced that pros aren't using them the way they should, I've seen better usage of Swarm Hosts from some lower level players than from the Pros. Most of them just burrow them and let them spawn Locusts, and don't unburrow them at all. If anything, you really should be active and aggressive with them, with proper support, so they don't just outright die if the enemy drops on them/flanks them.
I have tried swarm hosts a lot vs bio terran and from all I have seen in Progames, swarm host usage comes down to: you attack somewhere with them, the bioplayer tries to attack the swarm hosts and fortifies a position facing the swarm hosts. The zerg is forced to protect the hosts with most of his army and the two players stalemate each others armies. Then the Terran just starts to drop everywhere while the main armies checkmate each other - assuming the swarmhosts ever got into a threatening position.
The thing why swarm hosts dont really work vs biomech is - widow mine/tank deal with most of the locusts very fast and most damage gets healed up by medivacs. Then, anytime a spawn is killed the bioplayer can stim in and the zerg player is forced to sacrifice some units as well to protect the hosts or he loses ground by retreating and letting the Terran move forward with mines/tanks. And all of that is only true if you even reach a stable position in the midgame that lets you push out with a bigger amount of units, which is very rare and usually means that you need 3-4bases and mutalisks+speedbanes and double/triple upgrades first.
I guess you didn't watch Blade55555's replay pack from GM Korea ladder? He is always opening with Muta/Ling/Bane into Swarm Hosts, making about 10 of them, and they are working great. Widow Mine and Tanks indeed do kill Locusts, but that is not bad for the Zerg, it is bad for the Terran. Locusts are free, Tanks wasting shots on them, or Widow Mines using rocket on them means less Tanks will shoot down your Lings and Banelings, and same goes for the Widow Mines that will lose their attack for next 40 seconds, which means that you can engage the Terran without worrying that you will lose half of your army in 2 seconds. Also, Blade is always having at least 10 Mutas to counter drops, if he lose them, he makes them again. From watching his replays, I feel that Swarm Hosts really make your engagements a lot easier. Later in the game you can also spread them to attack different bases while you are constantly attacking Terran army.
All in all, I must say that I am pretty disappointed with Pro's usage of the Swarm Hosts.
why is it bad for the Terran? Tank and Mine shots are free as well, mine cooldown is only slightly longer than Host cooldown. Also biohealth is free to a certain extend for the Terran.
I haven't seen those replays and I'm sure that swarmhost play - as well as mine play, hellbat play, viper player, protoss air play, medivac play... - will get massively better than it is right now. Might want to watch those replays. But for what I have seen and experienced myself you basically give the advantage in the hands of the more mobile player when going swarm hosts - which is a tankless Terran with speedmedivacs in TvZ.
That might be true if you are rushing Swarm Hosts, but against Terran, that is never a good thing.
Majority of Terran players today just go for Widow Mines and Bio with Medivacs. Almost no Siege Tanks. If majority of Widow Mines use their payload on the Locusts, your Mutas, Lings and Banelings can do the quick work against enemy units, and we know that Bio can't deal with those units without any kind of splash, or without perfect micro.
I really suggest you to watch them, they are pretty solid. He also included the replays where he lost, so you can see some where he did micro mistakes, or where Terran outplayed him, but his composition definitely seems viable, and he said that more and more pro Zerg players are using that composition.
please stop citing random ladder player using SHs well this and that. You actually think 200 players at the prohouses & some dedicated coaches cannot work out a decent SHs build?
So Leenock wrecked some noobs on ladder with that nydus/SH build. The day after he got murdered in GSTL using the same build. think about that. And fyi that build is very much a shenanigan.
So SHs is intended to nullify mines. It works decent on DMZ with very narrow and weird paths (result:loss) and gets completely outmaneuvered on Akilon Wastes (result:loss). Mind you that most maps are bigger than Akilon. Which niche is the SH gonna fill now?
On April 08 2013 21:26 Arceus wrote: please stop citing random ladder player using SHs well this and that. You actually think 200 players at the prohouses & some dedicated coaches cannot work out a decent SHs build?
So Leenock wrecked some noobs on ladder with that nydus/SH build. The day after he got murdered in GSTL using the same build. think about that. And fyi that build is very much a shenanigan.
So SHs is intended to nullify mines. It works decent on DMZ with very narrow and weird paths (result:loss) and gets completely outmaneuvered on Akilon Wastes (result:loss). Mind you that most maps are bigger than Akilon. Which niche is the SH gonna fill now?
No, I am not saying that they cannot make some decent SH build, I am saying that they are not using the unit properly, and they aren't.
I am also not talking about some stupid cheesy rushes with SHs and Nydus, I am talking about going them with your main army as support/siege unit, and successfully being able to transition from them.
You can't really be serious about watching one - two games where Swarm Hosts failed and then suddenly they are awful units? Exactly the opposite can be said about MVP.Monster winning against ST_Hack on Akilon Wastes at HSL, where he won with the Swarm Hosts, but that logic is flawed. You can't say some unit is bad within 1,2,3,5 or 10 matches.
Now, let's take a look at this. All of these are progamers. They are playing this game at least 10 hours a day. Do you think that they would be using this unit at all if it wouldn't work in their practice matches, that they played A LOT more than their tournament matches?
They see the potential in this unit, and definitely see something that you are not, since you don't watch all of their matches.
On April 08 2013 21:26 Arceus wrote: please stop citing random ladder player using SHs well this and that. You actually think 200 players at the prohouses & some dedicated coaches cannot work out a decent SHs build?
So Leenock wrecked some noobs on ladder with that nydus/SH build. The day after he got murdered in GSTL using the same build. think about that. And fyi that build is very much a shenanigan.
So SHs is intended to nullify mines. It works decent on DMZ with very narrow and weird paths (result:loss) and gets completely outmaneuvered on Akilon Wastes (result:loss). Mind you that most maps are bigger than Akilon. Which niche is the SH gonna fill now?
No, I am not saying that they cannot make some decent SH build, I am saying that they are not using the unit properly, and they aren't.
I am also not talking about some stupid cheesy rushes with SHs and Nydus, I am talking about going them with your main army as support/siege unit, and successfully being able to transition from them.
You can't really be serious about watching one - two games where Swarm Hosts failed and then suddenly they are awful units? Exactly the opposite can be said about MVP.Monster winning against ST_Hack on Akilon Wastes at HSL, where he won with the Swarm Hosts, but that logic is flawed. You can't say some unit is bad within 1,2,3,5 or 10 matches.
Now, let's take a look at this. All of these are progamers. They are playing this game at least 10 hours a day. Do you think that they would be using this unit at all if it wouldn't work in their practice matches, that they played A LOT more than their tournament matches?
They see the potential in this unit, and definitely see something that you are not, since you don't watch all of their matches.
well they might have only looked good against weak opponent in ladder/random leagues and not in professional settings? Yeah pros almost dont use this unit at all because it wouldnt work lol. You answer that yourself
So all in all, I dont see the potential in this unit. And so far, the usage is very low and the success rate is nil, which sorta back my opinion. (and if you wanna put up counter-argument, use offical matches aka GSL/GSTL/SPL.kthxbye)
On April 08 2013 21:26 Arceus wrote: please stop citing random ladder player using SHs well this and that. You actually think 200 players at the prohouses & some dedicated coaches cannot work out a decent SHs build?
So Leenock wrecked some noobs on ladder with that nydus/SH build. The day after he got murdered in GSTL using the same build. think about that. And fyi that build is very much a shenanigan.
So SHs is intended to nullify mines. It works decent on DMZ with very narrow and weird paths (result:loss) and gets completely outmaneuvered on Akilon Wastes (result:loss). Mind you that most maps are bigger than Akilon. Which niche is the SH gonna fill now?
No, I am not saying that they cannot make some decent SH build, I am saying that they are not using the unit properly, and they aren't.
I am also not talking about some stupid cheesy rushes with SHs and Nydus, I am talking about going them with your main army as support/siege unit, and successfully being able to transition from them.
You can't really be serious about watching one - two games where Swarm Hosts failed and then suddenly they are awful units? Exactly the opposite can be said about MVP.Monster winning against ST_Hack on Akilon Wastes at HSL, where he won with the Swarm Hosts, but that logic is flawed. You can't say some unit is bad within 1,2,3,5 or 10 matches.
Now, let's take a look at this. All of these are progamers. They are playing this game at least 10 hours a day. Do you think that they would be using this unit at all if it wouldn't work in their practice matches, that they played A LOT more than their tournament matches?
They see the potential in this unit, and definitely see something that you are not, since you don't watch all of their matches.
well they might have only looked good against weak opponent in ladder/random leagues and not in professional settings? Yeah pros almost dont use this unit at all because it wouldnt work lol. You answer that yourself
So all in all, I dont see the potential in this unit. And so far, the usage is very low and the success rate is nil, which sorta back my opinion. (and if you wanna put up counter-argument, use offical matches aka GSL/GSTL/SPL.kthxbye)
They are practicing with their own teammates, that aren't weak for sure. Hellbats are great units, I still don't see them being used a lot. So, yeah, they suck so much because they aren't used much? Your logic and arguments are flawed, and with your "kthxbye" there is no point in arguing with you, since you are probably some "I know everything" kind of the kid.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Zerg ruined Wings
You should have written, "hey, don't start this shit man, it's my job!".
The end of WoL featured a lot of tournaments that were dominated by zerg, whereas the "KT needs Protoss" comment was based on a lot less. There is a big difference there in sample size :p
Also, the 5 Protoss victories today in non-mirrors were: Best beat Shine, Bisu beat Turn, Rain beat Reality, Trap beat Mind, and Classic beat Crazy. How many of those are a surprise? In Woongjin vs EG-TL yesterday Protoss went 0-3 in non-mirror matches. A couple of PL matches doesn't say much.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Hey, let's not start that shit man.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Zerg ruined Wings
You should have written, "hey, don't start this shit man, it's my job!".
The end of WoL featured a lot of tournaments that were dominated by zerg, whereas the "KT needs Protoss" comment was based on a lot less. There is a big difference there in sample size :p
Also, the 5 Protoss victories today in non-mirrors were: Best beat Shine, Bisu beat Turn, Rain beat Reality, Trap beat Mind, and Classic beat Crazy. How many of those are a surprise? In Woongjin vs EG-TL yesterday Protoss went 0-3 in non-mirror matches. A couple of PL matches doesn't say much.
I'm gonna discuss/derail this thread further, here's just to make it clear what I meant: overall Terrans dominated longer in WoL, so when talking about "Zerg domination ruining WoL" the obvious argument against it that "Terran domination ruined WoL even harder".
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Hey, let's not start that shit man.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Zerg ruined Wings
You should have written, "hey, don't start this shit man, it's my job!".
The end of WoL featured a lot of tournaments that were dominated by zerg, whereas the "KT needs Protoss" comment was based on a lot less. There is a big difference there in sample size :p
Also, the 5 Protoss victories today in non-mirrors were: Best beat Shine, Bisu beat Turn, Rain beat Reality, Trap beat Mind, and Classic beat Crazy. How many of those are a surprise? In Woongjin vs EG-TL yesterday Protoss went 0-3 in non-mirror matches. A couple of PL matches doesn't say much.
I'm gonna discuss/derail this thread further, here's just to make it clear what I meant: overall Terrans dominated longer in WoL, so when talking about "Zerg domination ruining WoL" the obvious argument against it that "Terran domination ruined WoL even harder".
Yay... Knew STX was a better pick than KT for the same cost. Surprised Action is still on the main team at this point. He hasn't won a match in quite a while.
To the poster above me, you do realize that the graph makes a different point right? That really just shows the skill gap between Korean terrans and foreign terrans.
Love how that crap ends up in a proleague discussion though.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Hey, let's not start that shit man.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Zerg ruined Wings
You should have written, "hey, don't start this shit man, it's my job!".
The end of WoL featured a lot of tournaments that were dominated by zerg, whereas the "KT needs Protoss" comment was based on a lot less. There is a big difference there in sample size :p
Also, the 5 Protoss victories today in non-mirrors were: Best beat Shine, Bisu beat Turn, Rain beat Reality, Trap beat Mind, and Classic beat Crazy. How many of those are a surprise? In Woongjin vs EG-TL yesterday Protoss went 0-3 in non-mirror matches. A couple of PL matches doesn't say much.
I'm gonna discuss/derail this thread further, here's just to make it clear what I meant: overall Terrans dominated longer in WoL, so when talking about "Zerg domination ruining WoL" the obvious argument against it that "Terran domination ruined WoL even harder".
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Hey, let's not start that shit man.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Zerg ruined Wings
You should have written, "hey, don't start this shit man, it's my job!".
The end of WoL featured a lot of tournaments that were dominated by zerg, whereas the "KT needs Protoss" comment was based on a lot less. There is a big difference there in sample size :p
Also, the 5 Protoss victories today in non-mirrors were: Best beat Shine, Bisu beat Turn, Rain beat Reality, Trap beat Mind, and Classic beat Crazy. How many of those are a surprise? In Woongjin vs EG-TL yesterday Protoss went 0-3 in non-mirror matches. A couple of PL matches doesn't say much.
I'm gonna discuss/derail this thread further, here's just to make it clear what I meant: overall Terrans dominated longer in WoL, so when talking about "Zerg domination ruining WoL" the obvious argument against it that "Terran domination ruined WoL even harder".
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Hey, let's not start that shit man.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Zerg ruined Wings
You should have written, "hey, don't start this shit man, it's my job!".
The end of WoL featured a lot of tournaments that were dominated by zerg, whereas the "KT needs Protoss" comment was based on a lot less. There is a big difference there in sample size :p
Also, the 5 Protoss victories today in non-mirrors were: Best beat Shine, Bisu beat Turn, Rain beat Reality, Trap beat Mind, and Classic beat Crazy. How many of those are a surprise? In Woongjin vs EG-TL yesterday Protoss went 0-3 in non-mirror matches. A couple of PL matches doesn't say much.
I'm gonna discuss/derail this thread further, here's just to make it clear what I meant: overall Terrans dominated longer in WoL, so when talking about "Zerg domination ruining WoL" the obvious argument against it that "Terran domination ruined WoL even harder".
When I was choosing my FPL, Samsung, KT and STX each cost 3 points. I gambled and took STX. I feel pretty good as of now I also was deciding between INnoVation and Flash and thought that Flash was to expensive so I picked INnoVation who's now on 2 wins.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Hey, let's not start that shit man.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Zerg ruined Wings
You should have written, "hey, don't start this shit man, it's my job!".
The end of WoL featured a lot of tournaments that were dominated by zerg, whereas the "KT needs Protoss" comment was based on a lot less. There is a big difference there in sample size :p
Also, the 5 Protoss victories today in non-mirrors were: Best beat Shine, Bisu beat Turn, Rain beat Reality, Trap beat Mind, and Classic beat Crazy. How many of those are a surprise? In Woongjin vs EG-TL yesterday Protoss went 0-3 in non-mirror matches. A couple of PL matches doesn't say much.
I'm gonna discuss/derail this thread further, here's just to make it clear what I meant: overall Terrans dominated longer in WoL, so when talking about "Zerg domination ruining WoL" the obvious argument against it that "Terran domination ruined WoL even harder".
Ah cool. That makes sense and thanks for clearing that up For some reason I had assumed waylander meant that "Zerg ruined the end of Wings" so the Terran stuff earlier didn't matter, but it seems that I was mistaken there and waylander really meant "Zerg ruined Wings", judging by his response. Sorry about my misunderstanding.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Hey, let's not start that shit man.
On April 09 2013 00:49 waylander_ wrote:Zerg ruined Wings
You should have written, "hey, don't start this shit man, it's my job!".
The end of WoL featured a lot of tournaments that were dominated by zerg, whereas the "KT needs Protoss" comment was based on a lot less. There is a big difference there in sample size :p
Also, the 5 Protoss victories today in non-mirrors were: Best beat Shine, Bisu beat Turn, Rain beat Reality, Trap beat Mind, and Classic beat Crazy. How many of those are a surprise? In Woongjin vs EG-TL yesterday Protoss went 0-3 in non-mirror matches. A couple of PL matches doesn't say much.
I'm gonna discuss/derail this thread further, here's just to make it clear what I meant: overall Terrans dominated longer in WoL, so when talking about "Zerg domination ruining WoL" the obvious argument against it that "Terran domination ruined WoL even harder".
Ah cool. That makes sense and thanks for clearing that up For some reason I had assumed waylander meant that "Zerg ruined the end of Wings" so the Terran stuff earlier didn't matter, but it seems that I was mistaken there and waylander really meant "Zerg ruined Wings", judging by his response. Sorry about my misunderstanding.
I was just saying that these live report threads are becoming what the Zerg one's used to be. Those were justified ofc, but these are not. I think people are just so used to whining they can never stop.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e8Wd0.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/30/Writers_Icon.png/15px-Writers_Icon.png){kind=icon}
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/r9ZH0.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/7/7f/Twitch_ico.png)
Twitch EN![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oBSiY.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LBr19.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ufhoR.png)
Action < Korhal Floating Island > 
INnoVation (Bogus) 
Trap![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/l5YZ8.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3wcCS.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WdLE8.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/c/c6/Uk.png)
)
![[image loading]](http://defiler.ru/chat/smiles-visible/025.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BeJ2tnH.png)
...what a team...first a retarded DT-rush by Wooki then this 2 base trash play by Crazy...
