The usual: Don't flame casters or players. Don't discuss balance in this or any LR thread. Don't call your fellow posters idiots. Be excited, happy and entertained.
On March 18 2013 10:16 ShivaN wrote: wow he calls zerg weak, after just winning the 1st major Hots tournament? Are you fucking kidding me? lol
Well if you don't count Life game, zerg are 3-21 in ZvT in this tournament. And Life barely win against Polt and Last, even if both are really good player, Life has been since the last 6 month of MLG hand down the best player in the world and I think it's fair to say he is a way better player. Furthermore, yes he did win at the end, but a lot of his win was due to the fact that he cleverly exploited the HoTS metagames with his baneling bust timing, it's not going to work as much now it has been shown. It's not lying to say that zerg is a little bit underpowered against terran, I'm not sure if there is real problems in the PvZ match up to be honest, but there is style a lot of room to improve bio mine in terms of timing and the micro/positionning of the widow mine but I really don't see how you can play better that Life did.
Foreigners vs Koreans stats are invalid becuase of huge skill gap.
I hate this idea of saying that a guy is obviously better because he is Korean, there is absolutely no logic behind it. Stephano has been considered (by Korean too) as one of the top Zerg in the world, he's not the best obviously but he is really good and has won a lot even at a time where Zerg were weaker, i don't know how you would not count that. He has been demolished 3-0. Leenock as well, does that not count to you? The fact that DRG, Soulkey, Curious have also been eliminated by terran does not count? A lot pros agrees on this, even terran Zerg is indeed a little bit weaker right now, even though Life has won the tournament. Fruitdealer also won first GSL, it doesn't mean terran wasn't the stronger race at the time.
Nobody's saying that people are better simply because they're Korean. They're saying that professional Korean players are better than professional foreigners. It's just simply a fact. Maybe wait for the game to be out longer than a week before talking about balance?
On March 18 2013 10:40 DavoS wrote: So all I have to do to beat Terran is have godlike ling micro. Sounds good. Gj Life, you are the true God of Starcraft 2
trust me, at whatever paper league you're in zerg is still plenty of good.
haha so true. I honestly cant believe after 12 months of lings of liberty we see zergs already complaining all over the place when a fucking zerg just won the first major tournament.
Agree. In general its still the same as WOL. Survive till late game and you will most probably win. Its just that now we have more ways to pressure zergs early game ie reapers and widow mines drop.
On March 18 2013 10:35 Wombat_NI wrote: So basically people think it's a GOOD thing that widowmines can hit a huge clump of stuff and pretty much do nothing?
Widowmines should be potent, but counterable by baiting them with lings. That's 100% really cool I loved Life's continual use of that kind of micro trick. Widowmines randomly wiping out whole armies, or doing nothing is terrible and gimmicky, an artificial way to create 'tension'
It hit huge clump last game? I didn't see it..
I'm saying this distinct from those games. People have been claiming some sort of 'randomness' with mines would improve the game by adding volatility.
but it really forces zerg to use their zergling micro heavily. We all have seen Life's ridiculuos mine baiting micro.
Yeah but, that's zergling baiting, which is fine and I said that was cool. People were mentioning mines should be more like Reaver scarabs from BW which would sometimes fizzle out and do nothing at seemingly random intervals.
In essence. 1. Mitigating the splash with baiting and micro = awesome 2. Randomness = bad.
I was wondering if there would be some way to hold mines fire via some APM intensive thing, as a Terran counter to Zergs baiting tactics that could come in. Might be ridiculous though, but I'd rather see those kind of solutions pursued than straight tweaks to damage and whatnot
Despite all the OP controversy over the splash damage of the widow mines and medivac speed, I think they're still awesome additions to the game, and this entire tournament confirmed that for me. TvZ is fun again.
On March 18 2013 10:35 Wombat_NI wrote: So basically people think it's a GOOD thing that widowmines can hit a huge clump of stuff and pretty much do nothing?
Widowmines should be potent, but counterable by baiting them with lings. That's 100% really cool I loved Life's continual use of that kind of micro trick. Widowmines randomly wiping out whole armies, or doing nothing is terrible and gimmicky, an artificial way to create 'tension'
It hit huge clump last game? I didn't see it..
I'm saying this distinct from those games. People have been claiming some sort of 'randomness' with mines would improve the game by adding volatility.
but it really forces zerg to use their zergling micro heavily. We all have seen Life's ridiculuos mine baiting micro.
Yeah but, that's zergling baiting, which is fine and I said that was cool. People were mentioning mines should be more like Reaver scarabs from BW which would sometimes fizzle out and do nothing at seemingly random intervals.
In essence. 1. Mitigating the splash with baiting and micro = awesome 2. Randomness = bad.
I was wondering if there would be some way to hold mines fire via some APM intensive thing, as a Terran counter to Zergs baiting tactics that could come in. Might be ridiculous though, but I'd rather see those kind of solutions pursued than straight tweaks to damage and whatnot
No matter what people were mentioning but in the last game it's not that mines did nothing. It activated but it hit last pack of zergling. That's what I saw. I could be wrong though.
I'm not sure either, and would have to watch the VoDs over again to really have an opinion on that specific incident. I'm not really sure why it would have hit the last lings (if that were the case) rather than the forward ones that had triggered it.
I think it's because they just ran out of the mines range. I remember that you could use that trick with stalker too.
On March 18 2013 10:28 IMHope wrote: All the randomness that widow mines bring is great for the game. Stuff like that is what made BW a great spectator game because you never knew what would happen and it added suspense to games rather than knowing how fights would turn out before they even happened.
Perhaps that's how you feel personally. For me I despise the 'random' things in Starcraft, takes away from it as a legitimate competitive activity to a degree, for me anyway.
The guy posting about lucky/unlucky scarabs hits the nail on the head.
That's nonsense every competitive sport in the world has some luck/randomness involved. The weather, wind, bounce of a ball, the referees decision. It makes it more exciting and entertaining for the spectator. Mines and scarabs in BW were awesome. Too much randomness is obviously bad and at the moment the widow mine might need tweaking a bit but its not far off
On March 18 2013 10:35 Wombat_NI wrote: So basically people think it's a GOOD thing that widowmines can hit a huge clump of stuff and pretty much do nothing?
Widowmines should be potent, but counterable by baiting them with lings. That's 100% really cool I loved Life's continual use of that kind of micro trick. Widowmines randomly wiping out whole armies, or doing nothing is terrible and gimmicky, an artificial way to create 'tension'
It hit huge clump last game? I didn't see it..
I'm saying this distinct from those games. People have been claiming some sort of 'randomness' with mines would improve the game by adding volatility.
but it really forces zerg to use their zergling micro heavily. We all have seen Life's ridiculuos mine baiting micro.
Yeah but, that's zergling baiting, which is fine and I said that was cool. People were mentioning mines should be more like Reaver scarabs from BW which would sometimes fizzle out and do nothing at seemingly random intervals.
In essence. 1. Mitigating the splash with baiting and micro = awesome 2. Randomness = bad.
I was wondering if there would be some way to hold mines fire via some APM intensive thing, as a Terran counter to Zergs baiting tactics that could come in. Might be ridiculous though, but I'd rather see those kind of solutions pursued than straight tweaks to damage and whatnot
On March 18 2013 10:40 DavoS wrote: So all I have to do to beat Terran is have godlike ling micro. Sounds good. Gj Life, you are the true God of Starcraft 2
trust me, at whatever paper league you're in zerg is still plenty of good.
haha so true. I honestly cant believe after 12 months of lings of liberty we see zergs already complaining all over the place when a fucking zerg just won the first major tournament.
Agree. In general its still the same as WOL. Survive till late game and you will most probably win. Its just that now we have more ways to pressure zergs early game ie reapers and widow mines drop.
No no.... zerg needs to pressure now in the early game so they keep terran in their base. If they let them get out and start dropping 3 bases at onces, they'll be on the back foot and lose.
Life won by attacking early and not letting flash get his drops going. Most zergs, who are used to staying back and waiting for the late game, get decimated by the mid-game drops.
Life - is the exception because he's always been exceptionally aggressive. Which is even more vital now because terran is so dangerous mid-game.
On March 18 2013 10:28 IMHope wrote: All the randomness that widow mines bring is great for the game. Stuff like that is what made BW a great spectator game because you never knew what would happen and it added suspense to games rather than knowing how fights would turn out before they even happened.
Perhaps that's how you feel personally. For me I despise the 'random' things in Starcraft, takes away from it as a legitimate competitive activity to a degree, for me anyway.
The guy posting about lucky/unlucky scarabs hits the nail on the head.
That's nonsense every competitive sport in the world has some luck/randomness involved. The weather, wind, bounce of a ball, the referees decision. It makes it more exciting and entertaining for the spectator. Mines and scarabs in BW were awesome. Too much randomness is obviously bad and at the moment the widow mine might need tweaking a bit but its not far off
It would be like deliberately making poor refereeing decisions in football just to spice things up a bit.
Acceptable randomness is things like pulling your overlord back just inches from that proxy pylon, or things on that basis, but that's just me.
On March 18 2013 10:31 Levistus wrote: Would building tanks really help flash in that series? I think that's the only series recently that I remember where Terran didn't build tanks against Z.
what was FLash afraid of building tanks for? Life zergling numbers are insane so tanks are probably not a great answer.
the series was about Flash not being ready for Life all or nothing approach. And then some, Flash even got somewhat intimidated by the fact Life was just not afraid to lose to a Bonjwa a rushmore figure in e-sports.
Game 3. Life goes baneling bust, FLash not prepared or ready to see a ballsy move like that. game 4 FLash cheeses Life, but life is still not intimidated by Flash, will continue to economically cheese flash. game 5. Life not only out expands FLash early, he kills an SCV and does that same baneling bust that decimated FLash's workers Game 6: Life early expands again and FLash should have stopped this kid by cheesing this kid or punishing Life for continually double expanding so early. FLash would punish JD for doing so, with Life no so much
Bling busts on fast 3 bases are not exactly all or nothing...
It's risky. Life wasn't afraid to take those risks
On March 18 2013 10:35 Wombat_NI wrote: So basically people think it's a GOOD thing that widowmines can hit a huge clump of stuff and pretty much do nothing?
Widowmines should be potent, but counterable by baiting them with lings. That's 100% really cool I loved Life's continual use of that kind of micro trick. Widowmines randomly wiping out whole armies, or doing nothing is terrible and gimmicky, an artificial way to create 'tension'
It hit huge clump last game? I didn't see it..
I'm saying this distinct from those games. People have been claiming some sort of 'randomness' with mines would improve the game by adding volatility.
but it really forces zerg to use their zergling micro heavily. We all have seen Life's ridiculuos mine baiting micro.
Yeah but, that's zergling baiting, which is fine and I said that was cool. People were mentioning mines should be more like Reaver scarabs from BW which would sometimes fizzle out and do nothing at seemingly random intervals.
In essence. 1. Mitigating the splash with baiting and micro = awesome 2. Randomness = bad.
I was wondering if there would be some way to hold mines fire via some APM intensive thing, as a Terran counter to Zergs baiting tactics that could come in. Might be ridiculous though, but I'd rather see those kind of solutions pursued than straight tweaks to damage and whatnot
If something awsome like this were to happend in sc2 people would immediately cry imba and blizzard would nerf it within a week to never be seen again.
On March 18 2013 10:16 ShivaN wrote: wow he calls zerg weak, after just winning the 1st major Hots tournament? Are you fucking kidding me? lol
Well if you don't count Life game, zerg are 3-21 in ZvT in this tournament. And Life barely win against Polt and Last, even if both are really good player, Life has been since the last 6 month of MLG hand down the best player in the world and I think it's fair to say he is a way better player. Furthermore, yes he did win at the end, but a lot of his win was due to the fact that he cleverly exploited the HoTS metagames with his baneling bust timing, it's not going to work as much now it has been shown. It's not lying to say that zerg is a little bit underpowered against terran, I'm not sure if there is real problems in the PvZ match up to be honest, but there is style a lot of room to improve bio mine in terms of timing and the micro/positionning of the widow mine but I really don't see how you can play better that Life did.
Foreigners vs Koreans stats are invalid becuase of huge skill gap.
I hate this idea of saying that a guy is obviously better because he is Korean, there is absolutely no logic behind it. Stephano has been considered (by Korean too) as one of the top Zerg in the world, he's not the best obviously but he is really good and has won a lot even at a time where Zerg were weaker, i don't know how you would not count that. He has been demolished 3-0. Leenock as well, does that not count to you? The fact that DRG, Soulkey, Curious have also been eliminated by terran does not count? A lot pros agrees on this, even terran Zerg is indeed a little bit weaker right now, even though Life has won the tournament. Fruitdealer also won first GSL, it doesn't mean terran wasn't the stronger race at the time.
Well you just need to see the games, maybe ? Both Stephano and leenock played very poorly versus truly amazing TvZ players : leenock going 2 base muta vs 3 CC build while doing 0 damage; Stephano doing some roach/hydra shit with 0 anti-drop defense simply dying to superior multi-tasking. They were just trying something different because of HoTs metagmae, but that were not good enough. Life figured his shit much better. And played much better. So, with 8 top wolrd terrans vs 2 top wolrd zerg in this MLG, a zerg won. Then you shit talk about zerg UP, it's kinda hilarious.
And i'am a Leenock fan and more or less a Stephano supporter.
On March 18 2013 10:28 IMHope wrote: All the randomness that widow mines bring is great for the game. Stuff like that is what made BW a great spectator game because you never knew what would happen and it added suspense to games rather than knowing how fights would turn out before they even happened.
Perhaps that's how you feel personally. For me I despise the 'random' things in Starcraft, takes away from it as a legitimate competitive activity to a degree, for me anyway.
The guy posting about lucky/unlucky scarabs hits the nail on the head.
That's nonsense every competitive sport in the world has some luck/randomness involved. The weather, wind, bounce of a ball, the referees decision. It makes it more exciting and entertaining for the spectator. Mines and scarabs in BW were awesome. Too much randomness is obviously bad and at the moment the widow mine might need tweaking a bit but its not far off
It would be like deliberately making poor refereeing decisions in football just to spice things up a bit.
Acceptable randomness is things like pulling your overlord back just inches from that proxy pylon, or things on that basis, but that's just me.
I hope they upload the replays to be able to see what really happened, because i think most people in this thread are making bold assumptions about WM randomness.
On March 18 2013 10:40 DavoS wrote: So all I have to do to beat Terran is have godlike ling micro. Sounds good. Gj Life, you are the true God of Starcraft 2
trust me, at whatever paper league you're in zerg is still plenty of good.
haha so true. I honestly cant believe after 12 months of lings of liberty we see zergs already complaining all over the place when a fucking zerg just won the first major tournament.
Agree. In general its still the same as WOL. Survive till late game and you will most probably win. Its just that now we have more ways to pressure zergs early game ie reapers and widow mines drop.
No no.... zerg needs to pressure now in the early game so they keep terran in their base. If they let them get out and start dropping 3 bases at onces, they'll be on the back foot and lose.
Life won by attacking early and not letting flash get his drops going. Most zergs, who are used to staying back and waiting for the late game, get decimated by the mid-game drops.
Life - is the exception because he's always been exceptionally aggressive. Which is even more vital now because terran is so dangerous mid-game.
don't forget the double expands and the baneling busts as well in game 5 and game 3. FLash shouldn't have droppped against mass mutas
EPT
