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well although warpprism play always looks skilled, it doesn't always have to be effective. The only thing you are buying with it is time, while you are spending tons of money on it. (ToD nearly doubled sheth in units lost from time to time).
So if youre trading money for time, you should probably do something with that. If the other player is just pumping his money into units, that may not look as impressive but it's probably way more efficient.
And even if he wouldve killed all his tech buildings, this just opens a timing window for ToD it doesn't mean he should get an autowin. If he kills the infestation pit, for that to mean something you actually need to move out and use that timing window. I see nothing wrong with the ability to rebuilding killed buildings, same as above it gives you a timing windows you need to utilize and nothing else.
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On November 11 2012 13:02 TheHova wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 12:58 Crosswind wrote:
I play toss, but ToD got outplayed the third game. I realize that people on these boards think that lots of harass = outplaying, but the fact is, the harass was ineffective. ToD was doubling Sheth's resources lost after the harass, and didn't secure a 4th. So he lost to an army that was overwhelmingly more expensive than his.
I'm all for the ZERG IS OP bandwagon, but that was a bad game to claim the toss outplayed the zerg. =)
-Cross He killed the main, killed tons of drones, killed the hive, got the spire cancelled, killed the spawning pool, infestation pit, roach warren, 4th base, forced sheth to fuck his drones up on nearly all his gases... But yeah... Sheth amoving his entire army from 1 base to another is outplaying ToD lol.
ToD was outplaying sheth.
but he was coming from an insane ridiculous disadvantage - no warpgate = super late 3rd vs 4 base. His first DT rush didn't do too much damage (it was the continuous aggression that eventually did lots of damage).
the game was pretty much already over in zerg favour (when sheth moved out after defending the first DTs, he was up by 50+ supply with roach/ling infestor against a tiny tiny protoss army. the game should have ended, but he didn't commit to an attack), and ToD outplayed sheth to almost get to a win. but he did not overcome his huge defecit because he had to throw away fistfuls of money over and over again to keep sheth home and stay alive.
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On November 11 2012 13:06 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 13:02 TheHova wrote:On November 11 2012 12:58 Crosswind wrote:
I play toss, but ToD got outplayed the third game. I realize that people on these boards think that lots of harass = outplaying, but the fact is, the harass was ineffective. ToD was doubling Sheth's resources lost after the harass, and didn't secure a 4th. So he lost to an army that was overwhelmingly more expensive than his.
I'm all for the ZERG IS OP bandwagon, but that was a bad game to claim the toss outplayed the zerg. =)
-Cross He killed the main, killed tons of drones, killed the hive, got the spire cancelled, killed the spawning pool, infestation pit, roach warren, 4th base, forced sheth to fuck his drones up on nearly all his gases... But yeah... Sheth amoving his entire army from 1 base to another is outplaying ToD lol. He didn't kill half the structures you listed in the third game. You're talking about the second game (which he won).
No he did kill all of those structures in the third game as well....
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On November 11 2012 13:05 felisconcolori wrote:
Alright, I am going to bed.
Balance whine portion of this post:
Work is OP. They need to nerf work so I don't have to go to bed and can instead stay up to watch more Starcrafts.
NERF WORK! #SaveLife
Skip work #yolo
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Will the next match be the last of the day?
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On November 11 2012 12:57 Bwaaaa wrote:
the "..." was not bm tod was angry at himself
ToD is angry about zergs. But it's not BM, he just thinks there's no solution, more a balance whining (winning? Why Ning?...damn...crying !) than any kind of disrespect to Sheth.
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On November 11 2012 13:06 Nyxisto wrote:
well although warpprism play always looks skilled, it doesn't always have to be effective. The only thing you are buying with it is time, while you are spending tons of money on it. (ToD nearly doubled sheth in units lost from time to time).
So if youre trading money for time, you should probably do something with that. If the other player is just pumping his money into units, that may not look as impressive but it's probably way more efficient.
First player to understand this in a sea of angry posters. I salute you.
ToD's harrassment looked effective but was actually very bad by the end of the game.
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On November 11 2012 12:59 shabby wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 12:57 TheHova wrote:On November 11 2012 12:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 11 2012 12:55 TheHova wrote:
ToD might not have played perfect but he completely and utterly outplayed Sheth in every single game, the fact that he lost this series is just a joke. PvZ... Yeah okay lmao How did Sheth play better than ToD in any of those games? He played terrible. Broodlord Infestor saved him in both games that he won and almost even in the 2nd... Throw away endless zealots and DTs and warp prisms to kill a few drones, spines but mostly target buildings that don't die. Do this while forgetting warp gate, wasting time trying to expand when you have no army while making a 150 supply "deathball". Then proceed to whine when you lose to a zerg you didn't touch for the first 13 minutes of the game, and only bruised for the rest.
He didn't throw away many DTs, just tossed one in on occasion. What are you supposed to throw at zergs if not mineral units such as warp prisms and zealots? Not saying he played well, but I do agree that he played with more skill that series than sheth did.
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On November 11 2012 12:59 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 12:58 FrogOfWar wrote:On November 11 2012 12:54 Sated wrote:On November 11 2012 12:53 Dodgin wrote:
I'm not sure who deserves to lose this game more.
Forgetting Warp Gate is really bad but Sheth's defense has been completely awful
It's ok though Sheth has a good army so he's going to win. Forgetting Warp Gate was bad, but ToD has played so well since then with his harassment... ... Obviously doesn't matter how much damage you take as Zerg, though =P I agree the harassment was great. And that's why sheth deserves some credit for still getting his bl/infestor up. Those aren't free, you know. If all it takes to win games is macroing units then this game sucks.
What happened to macro games being considered to be high art, as opposed to all-inning, cheesing and playing cute?
If all it took to win games was to sneak in dts this game would suck.
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On November 11 2012 13:09 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 12:59 shabby wrote:On November 11 2012 12:57 TheHova wrote:On November 11 2012 12:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 11 2012 12:55 TheHova wrote:
ToD might not have played perfect but he completely and utterly outplayed Sheth in every single game, the fact that he lost this series is just a joke. PvZ... Yeah okay lmao How did Sheth play better than ToD in any of those games? He played terrible. Broodlord Infestor saved him in both games that he won and almost even in the 2nd... Throw away endless zealots and DTs and warp prisms to kill a few drones, spines but mostly target buildings that don't die. Do this while forgetting warp gate, wasting time trying to expand when you have no army while making a 150 supply "deathball". Then proceed to whine when you lose to a zerg you didn't touch for the first 13 minutes of the game, and only bruised for the rest. He didn't throw away many DTs, just tossed one in on occasion. What are you supposed to throw at zergs if not mineral units such as warp prisms and zealots? Not saying he played well, but I do agree that he played with more skill that series than sheth did.
He threw away teams of 6 Zealots + 2 DTs with regularity on an attempt to kill the Greater Spire at the natural (which never worked, not even in the final battle because he was paying zero attention and they autotargetted spine crawlers).
He lost over 20 Zealots, 6 DTs, and at least 2 Warp Prisms on one building that never died.
That's not good. That's AWFUL.
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On November 11 2012 13:06 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 13:02 TheHova wrote:On November 11 2012 12:58 Crosswind wrote:
I play toss, but ToD got outplayed the third game. I realize that people on these boards think that lots of harass = outplaying, but the fact is, the harass was ineffective. ToD was doubling Sheth's resources lost after the harass, and didn't secure a 4th. So he lost to an army that was overwhelmingly more expensive than his.
I'm all for the ZERG IS OP bandwagon, but that was a bad game to claim the toss outplayed the zerg. =)
-Cross He killed the main, killed tons of drones, killed the hive, got the spire cancelled, killed the spawning pool, infestation pit, roach warren, 4th base, forced sheth to fuck his drones up on nearly all his gases... But yeah... Sheth amoving his entire army from 1 base to another is outplaying ToD lol. ToD was outplaying sheth. but he was coming from an insane ridiculous disadvantage - no warpgate = super late 3rd vs 4 base. His first DT rush didn't do too much damage (it was the continuous aggression that eventually did lots of damage). the game was pretty much already over in zerg favour (when sheth moved out after defending the first DTs, he was up by 50+ supply with roach/ling infestor against a tiny tiny protoss army. the game should have ended, but he didn't commit to an attack), and ToD outplayed sheth to almost get to a win. but he did not overcome his huge defecit because he had to throw away fistfuls of money over and over again to keep sheth home and stay alive.
ToD outplayed Sheth in one thing: units/resources lost. Trading tons of units just to kill few buildings and cheaply replenished drones wasn't that effective. Often he suicided whole squad for nothing more than keeping Sheth on defense. It's nice that you can warp in all your cycles on the other side of the map but then you end up with abysmal army and less bases.
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On November 11 2012 13:07 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 12:57 Bwaaaa wrote:
the "..." was not bm tod was angry at himself ToD is angry about zergs. But it's not BM, he just thinks there's no solution, more a balance whining (winning? Why Ning?...damn...crying !) than any kind of disrespect to Sheth.
Or maaaybe, he realized that the game wasen't exactly good.. So it be kinda wrong to state so :b
relax people..
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Let's just all agree that the series was terrible, not worthy for any balance whining, move on, and try to erase that series forever
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How much time for qxc vs ret?
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On November 11 2012 13:14 pedrlz wrote:
How much time for qxc vs ret?
It's on now.
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On November 11 2012 13:10 FrogOfWar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 12:59 Dodgin wrote:On November 11 2012 12:58 FrogOfWar wrote:On November 11 2012 12:54 Sated wrote:On November 11 2012 12:53 Dodgin wrote:
I'm not sure who deserves to lose this game more.
Forgetting Warp Gate is really bad but Sheth's defense has been completely awful
It's ok though Sheth has a good army so he's going to win. Forgetting Warp Gate was bad, but ToD has played so well since then with his harassment... ... Obviously doesn't matter how much damage you take as Zerg, though =P I agree the harassment was great. And that's why sheth deserves some credit for still getting his bl/infestor up. Those aren't free, you know. If all it takes to win games is macroing units then this game sucks. What happened to macro games being considered to be high art, as opposed to all-inning, cheesing and playing cute? If all it took to win games was to sneak in dts this game would suck.
What I meant was, if all it takes to win games is building up your force and a-moving across the map once you reach your optimal composition, and have that force barely require any micro to be effective, then the game sucks.
Which is what we are seeing.
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On November 11 2012 13:11 jnd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 13:06 Oboeman wrote:On November 11 2012 13:02 TheHova wrote:On November 11 2012 12:58 Crosswind wrote:
I play toss, but ToD got outplayed the third game. I realize that people on these boards think that lots of harass = outplaying, but the fact is, the harass was ineffective. ToD was doubling Sheth's resources lost after the harass, and didn't secure a 4th. So he lost to an army that was overwhelmingly more expensive than his.
I'm all for the ZERG IS OP bandwagon, but that was a bad game to claim the toss outplayed the zerg. =)
-Cross He killed the main, killed tons of drones, killed the hive, got the spire cancelled, killed the spawning pool, infestation pit, roach warren, 4th base, forced sheth to fuck his drones up on nearly all his gases... But yeah... Sheth amoving his entire army from 1 base to another is outplaying ToD lol. ToD was outplaying sheth. but he was coming from an insane ridiculous disadvantage - no warpgate = super late 3rd vs 4 base. His first DT rush didn't do too much damage (it was the continuous aggression that eventually did lots of damage). the game was pretty much already over in zerg favour (when sheth moved out after defending the first DTs, he was up by 50+ supply with roach/ling infestor against a tiny tiny protoss army. the game should have ended, but he didn't commit to an attack), and ToD outplayed sheth to almost get to a win. but he did not overcome his huge defecit because he had to throw away fistfuls of money over and over again to keep sheth home and stay alive. ToD outplayed Sheth in one thing: units/resources lost. Trading tons of units just to kill few buildings and cheaply replenished drones wasn't that effective. Often he suicided whole squad for nothing more than keeping Sheth on defense. It's nice that you can warp in all your cycles on the other side of the map but then you end up with abysmal army and less bases.
I mean he outplayed sheth to stay in the game much longer than he should have and make it look much closer than it was. Sheth's handling of the situation was pretty damn awful, but there was no way he should have ever lost that game. He made it look possible.
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On November 11 2012 13:15 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 13:10 FrogOfWar wrote:On November 11 2012 12:59 Dodgin wrote:On November 11 2012 12:58 FrogOfWar wrote:On November 11 2012 12:54 Sated wrote:On November 11 2012 12:53 Dodgin wrote:
I'm not sure who deserves to lose this game more.
Forgetting Warp Gate is really bad but Sheth's defense has been completely awful
It's ok though Sheth has a good army so he's going to win. Forgetting Warp Gate was bad, but ToD has played so well since then with his harassment... ... Obviously doesn't matter how much damage you take as Zerg, though =P I agree the harassment was great. And that's why sheth deserves some credit for still getting his bl/infestor up. Those aren't free, you know. If all it takes to win games is macroing units then this game sucks. What happened to macro games being considered to be high art, as opposed to all-inning, cheesing and playing cute? If all it took to win games was to sneak in dts this game would suck. What I meant was, if all it takes to win games is building up your force and a-moving across the map once you reach your optimal composition, and have that force barely require any micro to be effective, then the game sucks. Which is what we are seeing.
Point taken. I just want to point out that the skill it takes to keep up your economy and tech while being harassed everywhere doesn't show up on stream like engagements do.
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On November 11 2012 13:15 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 13:11 jnd wrote:On November 11 2012 13:06 Oboeman wrote:On November 11 2012 13:02 TheHova wrote:On November 11 2012 12:58 Crosswind wrote:
I play toss, but ToD got outplayed the third game. I realize that people on these boards think that lots of harass = outplaying, but the fact is, the harass was ineffective. ToD was doubling Sheth's resources lost after the harass, and didn't secure a 4th. So he lost to an army that was overwhelmingly more expensive than his.
I'm all for the ZERG IS OP bandwagon, but that was a bad game to claim the toss outplayed the zerg. =)
-Cross He killed the main, killed tons of drones, killed the hive, got the spire cancelled, killed the spawning pool, infestation pit, roach warren, 4th base, forced sheth to fuck his drones up on nearly all his gases... But yeah... Sheth amoving his entire army from 1 base to another is outplaying ToD lol. ToD was outplaying sheth. but he was coming from an insane ridiculous disadvantage - no warpgate = super late 3rd vs 4 base. His first DT rush didn't do too much damage (it was the continuous aggression that eventually did lots of damage). the game was pretty much already over in zerg favour (when sheth moved out after defending the first DTs, he was up by 50+ supply with roach/ling infestor against a tiny tiny protoss army. the game should have ended, but he didn't commit to an attack), and ToD outplayed sheth to almost get to a win. but he did not overcome his huge defecit because he had to throw away fistfuls of money over and over again to keep sheth home and stay alive. ToD outplayed Sheth in one thing: units/resources lost. Trading tons of units just to kill few buildings and cheaply replenished drones wasn't that effective. Often he suicided whole squad for nothing more than keeping Sheth on defense. It's nice that you can warp in all your cycles on the other side of the map but then you end up with abysmal army and less bases. I mean he outplayed sheth to stay in the game much longer than he should have and make it look much closer than it was. Sheth's handling of the situation was pretty damn awful, but there was no way he should have ever lost that game. He made it look possible.
That's very true. One of the high points of ToD's play was the spire cancel into fourth base kill. He retreated just in the nick of time before he would have gotten punished for being there.
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EPT
