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On August 30 2012 16:53 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 10:50 Maghetti wrote:
I really hope to see more builds like Flyings build developed and used in sc2. sc2 pros seems to largely go super econ builds, "safe" builds like 1rax expand, and allin builds. I love seeing builds that get up some production/tech and attacks to get an advantage while still getting econ up. I hope to see more of this from the bw guys. Economy and greed is the current trend. This is what some people in this thread have been trying to say: The kespa players are really messing with the sc2 metagame because they do old builds sometimes (like flyings immortal push) when the current metagame is greed and greed and hard teching. This, along with the bo1 does give the kespa players a slight advantage. Im not saying this because i hate kespa or whatever, im a fan of good sc2 games no matter who is playing. But you cant deny that bo1 is likely to result in more upsets etc. Dont we quite often see koreans win 2 - 1 against foreigners in tournaments when we all know that the korean is a much better player? Its not uncommon for the korean to lose the first map either. I dont mean that kespa players are better or worse, im just talking about the effects of bo1 format. Ask yourself if there is a reason for a final to be bo5, or bo7, other than more entertainment and adds. But this is just how it is, its not like OSL have created this format to benefit the kespa players in the battle against ESF. Afaik this format has been the standard for OSL for a very long time. Accept the situation, its not the end of the world if your favourite player loses a bo1, and its not evidence of any domination by anyone. Everyone should be happy about the addition of the kespa players to the sc2 scene, because together with the ESF players they are likely to produce more and better sc2 games in the near future than we have ever seen.
Uh, I never said anything about the bo1 format but since you brought it up honestly I'm okay with it for the OSL groups. Currently in sc2 you hate bo3-7 mass gaming without specific preparation(MLG style) and you have bo3-7 with more allowed preparation(GSL style), but with OSL you go to the extreme of preparation. Every game has a full week of training time allowed so you should get peoples absolute best for every match. You example about korean players beating foreigners 2-1 doesn't necessarily apply as we have never seen foreigners and ESF players play in this sort of bo1 pass preparation style, but id expect it to benefit the ESF player more personally.
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On August 30 2012 17:31 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 17:25 Squeegy wrote:On August 30 2012 15:18 mrtomjones wrote:On August 30 2012 11:09 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 08:05 Heavenlee wrote:On August 30 2012 06:51 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 06:34 mrtomjones wrote:On August 30 2012 06:01 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 05:36 mrtomjones wrote:On August 30 2012 04:40 p14c wrote:
So far Kespa 4 - GSL 3. Deal with it! Micro and macro from BW translate easily to SC2. They just need good build orders and to get acquainted with the new units. Why does anyone need to post retarded as shit stuff like this? DEAL WITH IT. This is what I'd expect from a 13 year old kid who likes yelling at people and showing their superiority. Does no one realize that it is possible to cheer for your own players without antagonizing people that cheer for someone else? Only if the antagonizing side don't spark the fire in the first place. So far, that's the sole reason why BW knowledgeable fanbase are doing, they are defending against the ongoing onslaught of the uninformed. People who don't take their time and effort to learn about the StarCraf's gaming competition is really committing a sin here. Some might even call that 'hurting e-sport'. Ummm what? 75% of the crap spewed comes from BW elitist fans. The elephant article was written by a BW elitist fanboy and was the first time I saw any conflict between the fan groups specifically pertaining to SC2. The only arguments from before that were the BW fans saying how much better their game is and how they don't enjoy watching SC2. Perhaps BW fans should simply accept that not every SC2 fan will know a ton about BW and that it is not an insult if they don't have time to learn about it. Many Sc2 fans expressed excitement about the BW players joining them and an expansion to their community. I very much doubt this is the way they expected it to go down. Stop acting so god damned elitist and like you shit Lannister gold and perhaps you would see less crap spewed. From what I can tell the huge majority of SC2 fans simply want both sides to perform well and for the people that they have cheered for two years to have continued success. I hope that Kespa players do well and I hope that the top ESF players continue doing well too. That article is suppose to be taken as an education piece of work. A work that could very well reflect on the future of the StarCraft 2 scene. The author's intend was to teach TeamLiquid's newly acquired StarCraft 2 fans about the 'other side of the gate'. Yes it might hit a touchy string in the heart of many people as they have became quite fond of some of their players. That's comprehensible on my part. But however, it does echoes sounds of truth and was very prescient on the following sequence of things. At heart, it suppose to give hope to the fans about the upcoming events that could potentially change their whole point of views on professional StarCraft gaming. But then it met with multiple of relentless attack reigned from the new fans. But these attacks are not based on logical reason or by looking at what the facts present themselves in front of their eyes. No these strikes came from their emotional egomaniac of new-kid-on-the-block-attitude. Instead of acknowledging it with humble humility, they put up their pitchforks and waged war upon the site's veterans. That's not the worst part yet, they have also developed an irrational abhorrence toward the grandfather of culturing altering's perspective on professional gaming, the predessor itself Brood War. And thus came the posts about "BW is a dead game", "Stop trying to change 'our' game for the better, if you want to obtain things that make BW great, you can just go back playing that game." And that's the exact attitude that the Brood War originated fans detest with the greatest passion possible. And it is up to 'us' to individually educate the uninformed about the entire Korean's professional gaming scene, their structure of the system, and its historical aspect. Educational piece of work, intent to teach TL sc2 fans about BW, give hope to the fans about upcoming events...
Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats.
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.
Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment
Wow, what a great educational, enlightening article it was, huh? I don't really see why SC2 fans are being so uptight when he was really just trying to tell us about how nice the skill level will be when BW pros switch over. Those comments should definitely be accepted with humble humility huh? I'm sure if you went to any other game and called the pros complete shit because they aren't Kespa players, they would agree and perhaps beg you to teach them more, but the SC2 fans are just so egotistical right? Everyone knows people like MC didn't succeed in Brood War, that doesn't mean you have to write condescending posts about how you have to "educate" us about how good Kespa players are. It's not an "irrational abhorrence" to Brood War, why would anyone have anything bad to say about BW specifically? Almost no one dislikes Brood War or claims that wasn't a great game with many talented, dedicated players that have now switched to SC2. People root against Kespa players because of people like you and the writer of the elephant article who are mindnumbingly condescending because you watch spent years of your life watching people play a video game in Korea and now think you're some kind of revered buddha of esports. Even if you are somehow superior for having watched BW for a long time, that's pretty much the equivalent of walking up to someone reading a book and going "Are you seriously reading that inferior series? Try some Dostoyevsky or Tolstoy, they were far more talented writers than this scumbag who only has a career because of writers like him. I can't believe their books are even sold in the same store, and that people like this guy." Even if you're right, you're still a condescending elitist. You being part of the forum equivalent of a private book club doesn't make you special. Some people just want some entertainment and to root for their players. MC's my favorite player, apparently that I get offended when someone calls him complete trash not fit to lick Flash's shoes makes me "an emotional egomaniac new-kid-on-the-block." Yep the central message behind the article should definitely be taught in the heat of moment. See if it wasn't written back then, there would be way less hype induced around the notion of Kespa players making the switch. But because it was articulated, it heated up the topic. If it wasn't the same identical author that produced it, it would be someone else. Oh yeah if you want talk about people shitting on Brood War, you should just visit some of the suggestions the BW communities made to enhance the StarCraft 2 experience. And also you should pay attention to some of the StarCraft 2 fan's attitude toward the game by saying that the big names in StarCraft:Brood War should make the switch because they are wasting their time on it. Or speaking nonsense like "BW is dead." See if you don't want us to dangle around sensitive topics a la Elephant, some of the StarCraft 2 fans. Now I want to note that I did not say all of the StarCraft 2 fans because that some is actually in the sub 50% of population could use some history lessons. BW pro scene is dead. I think that sucks as I was watching it a bit towards the end again but meh. That is unless you want to watch China which I think still has pro leagues. I wish both games could keep going but one didn't. Saying that doesn't mean you are insulting it. You really are delusional though... nice book of nonsense you wrote. I think he meant in the past, before Kespa began the transition to SC2. Of course the SC2 fans probably mostly meant no harm. They just wanted to see all the players united under one game in the name of esports. However, that is not what many of the BW fans cared about. They didn't care about esports as a whole, they cared about BW. So naturally, the SC2 fans ended up stepping on a lot of people's toes. I also don't understand why people are so terribly hurt by the Kespa vs ESF argument. It generally comes with sports that you rub it in when your team or player wins. I think most people would agree that this fan rivalry only makes the competition more interesting (that is not to say, some people don't go overboard). If you want to simply enjoy good games then why don't you do that? Nothing is stopping you. You however choose to take part in a discussion that is outside of that scope. It is possible to have multile topics going on in a thread, so why don't you just contribute to a different topic? It's not like we're sharpening our blades or taking out our baseball bats to go fight each other on the streets. There is no harm done. The best players will end up on the top eventually and whoever ended up being wrong will learn to shut up (except the ESF fans, they'll just come up with excuses). That is when this discussion will end. And then there will either be nothing going on, making the competition dull, or something similar, starting it all over again. Such is life. Everything is good under the sun. one of the more reasonable posts i've seen from you :p however, it's difficult to ignore topics too, haha, we're only human. i've done what i can to not get drawn into this discussion too much, but it has been a disappointing read to say the least, with both sides going at each other.
Rather than just looking at my posts, you should try reading them too. Perhaps then you would find that they're not quite as unreasonable as you assume. People just like to read more into my words than I say when they should only read what I actually say.
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On August 30 2012 11:16 zachMEISTER wrote:
I think I like the BO1 idea better. It makes the sessions much faster, and it leaves suspense as to how well they'll do next time.
Or do they actually play all of the series and just televise them later?
They play the game once every week, so they can train on every details they want. It's a sort of ultra preparation for each match. Enough time to study the map, prepare a good build order and practice it fifty times a day with the teammates.
Sometimes it ends in something really fun, like that zerg i didn't remember in BW (type-b ?), who said in interview he trained like a boss during a week and he went 4-pool. 
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On August 30 2012 17:32 Maghetti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 16:53 Fjodorov wrote:On August 30 2012 10:50 Maghetti wrote:
I really hope to see more builds like Flyings build developed and used in sc2. sc2 pros seems to largely go super econ builds, "safe" builds like 1rax expand, and allin builds. I love seeing builds that get up some production/tech and attacks to get an advantage while still getting econ up. I hope to see more of this from the bw guys. Economy and greed is the current trend. This is what some people in this thread have been trying to say: The kespa players are really messing with the sc2 metagame because they do old builds sometimes (like flyings immortal push) when the current metagame is greed and greed and hard teching. This, along with the bo1 does give the kespa players a slight advantage. Im not saying this because i hate kespa or whatever, im a fan of good sc2 games no matter who is playing. But you cant deny that bo1 is likely to result in more upsets etc. Dont we quite often see koreans win 2 - 1 against foreigners in tournaments when we all know that the korean is a much better player? Its not uncommon for the korean to lose the first map either. I dont mean that kespa players are better or worse, im just talking about the effects of bo1 format. Ask yourself if there is a reason for a final to be bo5, or bo7, other than more entertainment and adds. But this is just how it is, its not like OSL have created this format to benefit the kespa players in the battle against ESF. Afaik this format has been the standard for OSL for a very long time. Accept the situation, its not the end of the world if your favourite player loses a bo1, and its not evidence of any domination by anyone. Everyone should be happy about the addition of the kespa players to the sc2 scene, because together with the ESF players they are likely to produce more and better sc2 games in the near future than we have ever seen. Uh, I never said anything about the bo1 format but since you brought it up honestly I'm okay with it for the OSL groups. Currently in sc2 you hate bo3-7 mass gaming without specific preparation(MLG style) and you have bo3-7 with more allowed preparation(GSL style), but with OSL you go to the extreme of preparation. Every game has a full week of training time allowed so you should get peoples absolute best for every match. You example about korean players beating foreigners 2-1 doesn't necessarily apply as we have never seen foreigners and ESF players play in this sort of bo1 pass preparation style, but id expect it to benefit the ESF player more personally.
Aye, sry about the poor construction of my post. Only the part about metagame and builds was directed to you. Yeah, the bo1 format is in theory beautiful with the long preparation for just one game. Most of the time it should produce better games, with carefully tailored builds for a specific map and player. But a build order win will have greater in impact in bo1 and it will benefit the underdog.
You say a bo1 format would benefit the korean (better player) against a foreigner (worse player). In any sport, game, or any competitive activity, the worse player/participant will always benefit from having as few matches as possible. I dont see how it could not. A worse player can take a game, especially in a game like sc2, against a better. Does the worse player have a better chance of advancing if he plays a cup, and he faces a better player in a bo1, bo5, bo7? If you asked greece before the final against portugal in european championship in football, if they wanted to play a bo1 or bo7, what do you think they would have chosen? (greece won, they were a huge underdog and portugal was playing on home turf.) Manchester united will win 9 games of 10 against a league 2 team in a cup, but every now and then the worse team wins in one of those cups against the big teams like united. It would never happen if it was bo7. Sry for all the football analogys but i think they support my point quite well in this case: bo1 always benefits the underdog.
Pls note that im not saying kespa players are bad, or esf player for that matter. Im only talking about the bo1 format in this case.
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opterown
Australia54783 Posts
On August 30 2012 17:56 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 17:31 opterown wrote:On August 30 2012 17:25 Squeegy wrote:On August 30 2012 15:18 mrtomjones wrote:On August 30 2012 11:09 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 08:05 Heavenlee wrote:On August 30 2012 06:51 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 06:34 mrtomjones wrote:On August 30 2012 06:01 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 05:36 mrtomjones wrote:
[quote]
Why does anyone need to post retarded as shit stuff like this? DEAL WITH IT. This is what I'd expect from a 13 year old kid who likes yelling at people and showing their superiority. Does no one realize that it is possible to cheer for your own players without antagonizing people that cheer for someone else? Only if the antagonizing side don't spark the fire in the first place. So far, that's the sole reason why BW knowledgeable fanbase are doing, they are defending against the ongoing onslaught of the uninformed. People who don't take their time and effort to learn about the StarCraf's gaming competition is really committing a sin here. Some might even call that 'hurting e-sport'. Ummm what? 75% of the crap spewed comes from BW elitist fans. The elephant article was written by a BW elitist fanboy and was the first time I saw any conflict between the fan groups specifically pertaining to SC2. The only arguments from before that were the BW fans saying how much better their game is and how they don't enjoy watching SC2. Perhaps BW fans should simply accept that not every SC2 fan will know a ton about BW and that it is not an insult if they don't have time to learn about it. Many Sc2 fans expressed excitement about the BW players joining them and an expansion to their community. I very much doubt this is the way they expected it to go down. Stop acting so god damned elitist and like you shit Lannister gold and perhaps you would see less crap spewed. From what I can tell the huge majority of SC2 fans simply want both sides to perform well and for the people that they have cheered for two years to have continued success. I hope that Kespa players do well and I hope that the top ESF players continue doing well too. That article is suppose to be taken as an education piece of work. A work that could very well reflect on the future of the StarCraft 2 scene. The author's intend was to teach TeamLiquid's newly acquired StarCraft 2 fans about the 'other side of the gate'. Yes it might hit a touchy string in the heart of many people as they have became quite fond of some of their players. That's comprehensible on my part. But however, it does echoes sounds of truth and was very prescient on the following sequence of things. At heart, it suppose to give hope to the fans about the upcoming events that could potentially change their whole point of views on professional StarCraft gaming. But then it met with multiple of relentless attack reigned from the new fans. But these attacks are not based on logical reason or by looking at what the facts present themselves in front of their eyes. No these strikes came from their emotional egomaniac of new-kid-on-the-block-attitude. Instead of acknowledging it with humble humility, they put up their pitchforks and waged war upon the site's veterans. That's not the worst part yet, they have also developed an irrational abhorrence toward the grandfather of culturing altering's perspective on professional gaming, the predessor itself Brood War. And thus came the posts about "BW is a dead game", "Stop trying to change 'our' game for the better, if you want to obtain things that make BW great, you can just go back playing that game." And that's the exact attitude that the Brood War originated fans detest with the greatest passion possible. And it is up to 'us' to individually educate the uninformed about the entire Korean's professional gaming scene, their structure of the system, and its historical aspect. Educational piece of work, intent to teach TL sc2 fans about BW, give hope to the fans about upcoming events...
Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats.
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.
Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment
Wow, what a great educational, enlightening article it was, huh? I don't really see why SC2 fans are being so uptight when he was really just trying to tell us about how nice the skill level will be when BW pros switch over. Those comments should definitely be accepted with humble humility huh? I'm sure if you went to any other game and called the pros complete shit because they aren't Kespa players, they would agree and perhaps beg you to teach them more, but the SC2 fans are just so egotistical right? Everyone knows people like MC didn't succeed in Brood War, that doesn't mean you have to write condescending posts about how you have to "educate" us about how good Kespa players are. It's not an "irrational abhorrence" to Brood War, why would anyone have anything bad to say about BW specifically? Almost no one dislikes Brood War or claims that wasn't a great game with many talented, dedicated players that have now switched to SC2. People root against Kespa players because of people like you and the writer of the elephant article who are mindnumbingly condescending because you watch spent years of your life watching people play a video game in Korea and now think you're some kind of revered buddha of esports. Even if you are somehow superior for having watched BW for a long time, that's pretty much the equivalent of walking up to someone reading a book and going "Are you seriously reading that inferior series? Try some Dostoyevsky or Tolstoy, they were far more talented writers than this scumbag who only has a career because of writers like him. I can't believe their books are even sold in the same store, and that people like this guy." Even if you're right, you're still a condescending elitist. You being part of the forum equivalent of a private book club doesn't make you special. Some people just want some entertainment and to root for their players. MC's my favorite player, apparently that I get offended when someone calls him complete trash not fit to lick Flash's shoes makes me "an emotional egomaniac new-kid-on-the-block." Yep the central message behind the article should definitely be taught in the heat of moment. See if it wasn't written back then, there would be way less hype induced around the notion of Kespa players making the switch. But because it was articulated, it heated up the topic. If it wasn't the same identical author that produced it, it would be someone else. Oh yeah if you want talk about people shitting on Brood War, you should just visit some of the suggestions the BW communities made to enhance the StarCraft 2 experience. And also you should pay attention to some of the StarCraft 2 fan's attitude toward the game by saying that the big names in StarCraft:Brood War should make the switch because they are wasting their time on it. Or speaking nonsense like "BW is dead." See if you don't want us to dangle around sensitive topics a la Elephant, some of the StarCraft 2 fans. Now I want to note that I did not say all of the StarCraft 2 fans because that some is actually in the sub 50% of population could use some history lessons. BW pro scene is dead. I think that sucks as I was watching it a bit towards the end again but meh. That is unless you want to watch China which I think still has pro leagues. I wish both games could keep going but one didn't. Saying that doesn't mean you are insulting it. You really are delusional though... nice book of nonsense you wrote. I think he meant in the past, before Kespa began the transition to SC2. Of course the SC2 fans probably mostly meant no harm. They just wanted to see all the players united under one game in the name of esports. However, that is not what many of the BW fans cared about. They didn't care about esports as a whole, they cared about BW. So naturally, the SC2 fans ended up stepping on a lot of people's toes. I also don't understand why people are so terribly hurt by the Kespa vs ESF argument. It generally comes with sports that you rub it in when your team or player wins. I think most people would agree that this fan rivalry only makes the competition more interesting (that is not to say, some people don't go overboard). If you want to simply enjoy good games then why don't you do that? Nothing is stopping you. You however choose to take part in a discussion that is outside of that scope. It is possible to have multile topics going on in a thread, so why don't you just contribute to a different topic? It's not like we're sharpening our blades or taking out our baseball bats to go fight each other on the streets. There is no harm done. The best players will end up on the top eventually and whoever ended up being wrong will learn to shut up (except the ESF fans, they'll just come up with excuses). That is when this discussion will end. And then there will either be nothing going on, making the competition dull, or something similar, starting it all over again. Such is life. Everything is good under the sun. one of the more reasonable posts i've seen from you :p however, it's difficult to ignore topics too, haha, we're only human. i've done what i can to not get drawn into this discussion too much, but it has been a disappointing read to say the least, with both sides going at each other. Rather than just looking at my posts, you should try reading them too. Perhaps then you would find that they're not quite as unreasonable as you assume. People just like to read more into my words than I say when they should only read what I actually say.
lol i read plenty, here's me hoping you keep your posts like this and not flamebait or be snide
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Do you know when will be day3 ? It isn't list in the upcoming events.
Thanks
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Do you know when will be day3 ? It isn't list in the upcoming events.
Thanks
Next week on Tuesday
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On August 30 2012 19:06 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 17:56 Squeegy wrote:On August 30 2012 17:31 opterown wrote:On August 30 2012 17:25 Squeegy wrote:On August 30 2012 15:18 mrtomjones wrote:On August 30 2012 11:09 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 08:05 Heavenlee wrote:On August 30 2012 06:51 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 06:34 mrtomjones wrote:On August 30 2012 06:01 Xiphos wrote:
[quote]
Only if the antagonizing side don't spark the fire in the first place. So far, that's the sole reason why BW knowledgeable fanbase are doing, they are defending against the ongoing onslaught of the uninformed. People who don't take their time and effort to learn about the StarCraf's gaming competition is really committing a sin here. Some might even call that 'hurting e-sport'. Ummm what? 75% of the crap spewed comes from BW elitist fans. The elephant article was written by a BW elitist fanboy and was the first time I saw any conflict between the fan groups specifically pertaining to SC2. The only arguments from before that were the BW fans saying how much better their game is and how they don't enjoy watching SC2. Perhaps BW fans should simply accept that not every SC2 fan will know a ton about BW and that it is not an insult if they don't have time to learn about it. Many Sc2 fans expressed excitement about the BW players joining them and an expansion to their community. I very much doubt this is the way they expected it to go down. Stop acting so god damned elitist and like you shit Lannister gold and perhaps you would see less crap spewed. From what I can tell the huge majority of SC2 fans simply want both sides to perform well and for the people that they have cheered for two years to have continued success. I hope that Kespa players do well and I hope that the top ESF players continue doing well too. That article is suppose to be taken as an education piece of work. A work that could very well reflect on the future of the StarCraft 2 scene. The author's intend was to teach TeamLiquid's newly acquired StarCraft 2 fans about the 'other side of the gate'. Yes it might hit a touchy string in the heart of many people as they have became quite fond of some of their players. That's comprehensible on my part. But however, it does echoes sounds of truth and was very prescient on the following sequence of things. At heart, it suppose to give hope to the fans about the upcoming events that could potentially change their whole point of views on professional StarCraft gaming. But then it met with multiple of relentless attack reigned from the new fans. But these attacks are not based on logical reason or by looking at what the facts present themselves in front of their eyes. No these strikes came from their emotional egomaniac of new-kid-on-the-block-attitude. Instead of acknowledging it with humble humility, they put up their pitchforks and waged war upon the site's veterans. That's not the worst part yet, they have also developed an irrational abhorrence toward the grandfather of culturing altering's perspective on professional gaming, the predessor itself Brood War. And thus came the posts about "BW is a dead game", "Stop trying to change 'our' game for the better, if you want to obtain things that make BW great, you can just go back playing that game." And that's the exact attitude that the Brood War originated fans detest with the greatest passion possible. And it is up to 'us' to individually educate the uninformed about the entire Korean's professional gaming scene, their structure of the system, and its historical aspect. Educational piece of work, intent to teach TL sc2 fans about BW, give hope to the fans about upcoming events...
Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats.
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.
Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment
Wow, what a great educational, enlightening article it was, huh? I don't really see why SC2 fans are being so uptight when he was really just trying to tell us about how nice the skill level will be when BW pros switch over. Those comments should definitely be accepted with humble humility huh? I'm sure if you went to any other game and called the pros complete shit because they aren't Kespa players, they would agree and perhaps beg you to teach them more, but the SC2 fans are just so egotistical right? Everyone knows people like MC didn't succeed in Brood War, that doesn't mean you have to write condescending posts about how you have to "educate" us about how good Kespa players are. It's not an "irrational abhorrence" to Brood War, why would anyone have anything bad to say about BW specifically? Almost no one dislikes Brood War or claims that wasn't a great game with many talented, dedicated players that have now switched to SC2. People root against Kespa players because of people like you and the writer of the elephant article who are mindnumbingly condescending because you watch spent years of your life watching people play a video game in Korea and now think you're some kind of revered buddha of esports. Even if you are somehow superior for having watched BW for a long time, that's pretty much the equivalent of walking up to someone reading a book and going "Are you seriously reading that inferior series? Try some Dostoyevsky or Tolstoy, they were far more talented writers than this scumbag who only has a career because of writers like him. I can't believe their books are even sold in the same store, and that people like this guy." Even if you're right, you're still a condescending elitist. You being part of the forum equivalent of a private book club doesn't make you special. Some people just want some entertainment and to root for their players. MC's my favorite player, apparently that I get offended when someone calls him complete trash not fit to lick Flash's shoes makes me "an emotional egomaniac new-kid-on-the-block." Yep the central message behind the article should definitely be taught in the heat of moment. See if it wasn't written back then, there would be way less hype induced around the notion of Kespa players making the switch. But because it was articulated, it heated up the topic. If it wasn't the same identical author that produced it, it would be someone else. Oh yeah if you want talk about people shitting on Brood War, you should just visit some of the suggestions the BW communities made to enhance the StarCraft 2 experience. And also you should pay attention to some of the StarCraft 2 fan's attitude toward the game by saying that the big names in StarCraft:Brood War should make the switch because they are wasting their time on it. Or speaking nonsense like "BW is dead." See if you don't want us to dangle around sensitive topics a la Elephant, some of the StarCraft 2 fans. Now I want to note that I did not say all of the StarCraft 2 fans because that some is actually in the sub 50% of population could use some history lessons. BW pro scene is dead. I think that sucks as I was watching it a bit towards the end again but meh. That is unless you want to watch China which I think still has pro leagues. I wish both games could keep going but one didn't. Saying that doesn't mean you are insulting it. You really are delusional though... nice book of nonsense you wrote. I think he meant in the past, before Kespa began the transition to SC2. Of course the SC2 fans probably mostly meant no harm. They just wanted to see all the players united under one game in the name of esports. However, that is not what many of the BW fans cared about. They didn't care about esports as a whole, they cared about BW. So naturally, the SC2 fans ended up stepping on a lot of people's toes. I also don't understand why people are so terribly hurt by the Kespa vs ESF argument. It generally comes with sports that you rub it in when your team or player wins. I think most people would agree that this fan rivalry only makes the competition more interesting (that is not to say, some people don't go overboard). If you want to simply enjoy good games then why don't you do that? Nothing is stopping you. You however choose to take part in a discussion that is outside of that scope. It is possible to have multile topics going on in a thread, so why don't you just contribute to a different topic? It's not like we're sharpening our blades or taking out our baseball bats to go fight each other on the streets. There is no harm done. The best players will end up on the top eventually and whoever ended up being wrong will learn to shut up (except the ESF fans, they'll just come up with excuses). That is when this discussion will end. And then there will either be nothing going on, making the competition dull, or something similar, starting it all over again. Such is life. Everything is good under the sun. one of the more reasonable posts i've seen from you :p however, it's difficult to ignore topics too, haha, we're only human. i've done what i can to not get drawn into this discussion too much, but it has been a disappointing read to say the least, with both sides going at each other. Rather than just looking at my posts, you should try reading them too. Perhaps then you would find that they're not quite as unreasonable as you assume. People just like to read more into my words than I say when they should only read what I actually say. lol i read plenty, here's me hoping you keep your posts like this and not flamebait or be snide
Sometimes a reasonable post can be a flamebait. All it needs to do is disagree heavily enough with a differing opinion. That baits flames from the unreasonable. It doesn't mean I am being unreasonable. And being snide? Sure, but being snide has not much to do with being reasonable. It is simply a matter of style of the post. I thought you implied I am often not reasonable. If that is what you think, then I am afraid, it is really just a matter of you not understanding what you read. Or that you read more in my posts than what I write.
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On August 30 2012 18:43 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 17:32 Maghetti wrote:On August 30 2012 16:53 Fjodorov wrote:On August 30 2012 10:50 Maghetti wrote:
I really hope to see more builds like Flyings build developed and used in sc2. sc2 pros seems to largely go super econ builds, "safe" builds like 1rax expand, and allin builds. I love seeing builds that get up some production/tech and attacks to get an advantage while still getting econ up. I hope to see more of this from the bw guys. Economy and greed is the current trend. This is what some people in this thread have been trying to say: The kespa players are really messing with the sc2 metagame because they do old builds sometimes (like flyings immortal push) when the current metagame is greed and greed and hard teching. This, along with the bo1 does give the kespa players a slight advantage. Im not saying this because i hate kespa or whatever, im a fan of good sc2 games no matter who is playing. But you cant deny that bo1 is likely to result in more upsets etc. Dont we quite often see koreans win 2 - 1 against foreigners in tournaments when we all know that the korean is a much better player? Its not uncommon for the korean to lose the first map either. I dont mean that kespa players are better or worse, im just talking about the effects of bo1 format. Ask yourself if there is a reason for a final to be bo5, or bo7, other than more entertainment and adds. But this is just how it is, its not like OSL have created this format to benefit the kespa players in the battle against ESF. Afaik this format has been the standard for OSL for a very long time. Accept the situation, its not the end of the world if your favourite player loses a bo1, and its not evidence of any domination by anyone. Everyone should be happy about the addition of the kespa players to the sc2 scene, because together with the ESF players they are likely to produce more and better sc2 games in the near future than we have ever seen. Uh, I never said anything about the bo1 format but since you brought it up honestly I'm okay with it for the OSL groups. Currently in sc2 you hate bo3-7 mass gaming without specific preparation(MLG style) and you have bo3-7 with more allowed preparation(GSL style), but with OSL you go to the extreme of preparation. Every game has a full week of training time allowed so you should get peoples absolute best for every match. You example about korean players beating foreigners 2-1 doesn't necessarily apply as we have never seen foreigners and ESF players play in this sort of bo1 pass preparation style, but id expect it to benefit the ESF player more personally. Aye, sry about the poor construction of my post. Only the part about metagame and builds was directed to you. Yeah, the bo1 format is in theory beautiful with the long preparation for just one game. Most of the time it should produce better games, with carefully tailored builds for a specific map and player. But a build order win will have greater in impact in bo1 and it will benefit the underdog. You say a bo1 format would benefit the korean (better player) against a foreigner (worse player). In any sport, game, or any competitive activity, the worse player/participant will always benefit from having as few matches as possible. I dont see how it could not. A worse player can take a game, especially in a game like sc2, against a better. Does the worse player have a better chance of advancing if he plays a cup, and he faces a better player in a bo1, bo5, bo7? If you asked greece before the final against portugal in european championship in football, if they wanted to play a bo1 or bo7, what do you think they would have chosen? (greece won, they were a huge underdog and portugal was playing on home turf.) Manchester united will win 9 games of 10 against a league 2 team in a cup, but every now and then the worse team wins in one of those cups against the big teams like united. It would never happen if it was bo7. Sry for all the football analogys but i think they support my point quite well in this case: bo1 always benefits the underdog. Pls note that im not saying kespa players are bad, or esf player for that matter. Im only talking about the bo1 format in this case.
Pro football. That is all. In games of great strategy, preparation separates the great from the good. BoInfinity and marathon games like MLG only determine who has the best mechanics(ie who is the best monkey). this BO1 format determines who has the greatest mind. Peyton Manning is not the best QB because he had the best arm or mechanics, he's the best because he PREPARES the best out of any QB in history.
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On August 30 2012 21:04 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 18:43 Fjodorov wrote:On August 30 2012 17:32 Maghetti wrote:On August 30 2012 16:53 Fjodorov wrote:On August 30 2012 10:50 Maghetti wrote:
I really hope to see more builds like Flyings build developed and used in sc2. sc2 pros seems to largely go super econ builds, "safe" builds like 1rax expand, and allin builds. I love seeing builds that get up some production/tech and attacks to get an advantage while still getting econ up. I hope to see more of this from the bw guys. Economy and greed is the current trend. This is what some people in this thread have been trying to say: The kespa players are really messing with the sc2 metagame because they do old builds sometimes (like flyings immortal push) when the current metagame is greed and greed and hard teching. This, along with the bo1 does give the kespa players a slight advantage. Im not saying this because i hate kespa or whatever, im a fan of good sc2 games no matter who is playing. But you cant deny that bo1 is likely to result in more upsets etc. Dont we quite often see koreans win 2 - 1 against foreigners in tournaments when we all know that the korean is a much better player? Its not uncommon for the korean to lose the first map either. I dont mean that kespa players are better or worse, im just talking about the effects of bo1 format. Ask yourself if there is a reason for a final to be bo5, or bo7, other than more entertainment and adds. But this is just how it is, its not like OSL have created this format to benefit the kespa players in the battle against ESF. Afaik this format has been the standard for OSL for a very long time. Accept the situation, its not the end of the world if your favourite player loses a bo1, and its not evidence of any domination by anyone. Everyone should be happy about the addition of the kespa players to the sc2 scene, because together with the ESF players they are likely to produce more and better sc2 games in the near future than we have ever seen. Uh, I never said anything about the bo1 format but since you brought it up honestly I'm okay with it for the OSL groups. Currently in sc2 you hate bo3-7 mass gaming without specific preparation(MLG style) and you have bo3-7 with more allowed preparation(GSL style), but with OSL you go to the extreme of preparation. Every game has a full week of training time allowed so you should get peoples absolute best for every match. You example about korean players beating foreigners 2-1 doesn't necessarily apply as we have never seen foreigners and ESF players play in this sort of bo1 pass preparation style, but id expect it to benefit the ESF player more personally. Aye, sry about the poor construction of my post. Only the part about metagame and builds was directed to you. Yeah, the bo1 format is in theory beautiful with the long preparation for just one game. Most of the time it should produce better games, with carefully tailored builds for a specific map and player. But a build order win will have greater in impact in bo1 and it will benefit the underdog. You say a bo1 format would benefit the korean (better player) against a foreigner (worse player). In any sport, game, or any competitive activity, the worse player/participant will always benefit from having as few matches as possible. I dont see how it could not. A worse player can take a game, especially in a game like sc2, against a better. Does the worse player have a better chance of advancing if he plays a cup, and he faces a better player in a bo1, bo5, bo7? If you asked greece before the final against portugal in european championship in football, if they wanted to play a bo1 or bo7, what do you think they would have chosen? (greece won, they were a huge underdog and portugal was playing on home turf.) Manchester united will win 9 games of 10 against a league 2 team in a cup, but every now and then the worse team wins in one of those cups against the big teams like united. It would never happen if it was bo7. Sry for all the football analogys but i think they support my point quite well in this case: bo1 always benefits the underdog. Pls note that im not saying kespa players are bad, or esf player for that matter. Im only talking about the bo1 format in this case. Pro football. That is all. In games of great strategy, preparation separates the great from the good. BoInfinity and marathon games like MLG only determine who has the best mechanics(ie who is the best monkey). this BO1 format determines who has the greatest mind. Peyton Manning is not the best QB because he had the best arm or mechanics, he's the best because he PREPARES the best out of any QB in history.
I don't think this is entirely fair. How so?
1) BoX is the accepted format for any "important" match, in Starcraft as well as most professional sports. Football (and football) are exceptions mainly because they also contain an endurance element - not that basketball or whatever doesn't, but it's far more "part of the game" in football-type games. (I don't know much about rugby/Aussie/Gaelic, but I'd assume the same things apply.)
2) When you ask "why"? the answer is that a longer series favors the better player. Not the better "monkey", the better player. The classic Brood War example of this in recent years was the fantasy vs Jaedong OSL final. fantasy took two games with prepared builds executed with impeccable micro and timings - but given time to adapt, and a little luck, Jaedong was able to hang tough through the third game, then come back and win, because he was the better player. Given the nature of the game - no one can stop cheese 100% of the time - you have to give the better player a chance to prove it.
3) Of course, this doesn't entirely apply to group stages. I like Bo1 - either ODT/MST-style double-elimination or this group style - in the group stage, because it makes the group the challenge. Bo3 is tolerable, but even that is pushing things; do you have a group to deal with, or a series of individuals who happen to have been lumped into the same category for the purposes of the tournament? If you try to imagine Bo5 or something in group play, it gets ridiculous.
For any tournament, there are balances: fairness vs. excitement, time constraints vs. most preferable formats, etc. LAN formats (MLG, Dreamhack, etc.) favor consistency over inventiveness. "Seasonal" tournaments (OSL, GSL, TSL, etc.) favor, to one degree or another, inventiveness - or strategy, or preparation, depending how you look at it - over sheer mechanical prowess. (Though you won't win either type of tournament without both, obviously.)
I don't know if there is an "ideal" format: it's probably best that the scene has multiple tournaments which present different challenges. On the other hand, the most successful tournaments (in entertainment and therefore making money) will survive and eventually dictate by default what the "right" format is. I just have no idea which one(s) that will be yet.
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So by your logic, is that we should have a one-dimensional type of players who HAS to have mechanics as their best strength?
By that logic Boxer should've never been succesful as a BW player as he was one to thrive in preparation of special builds and the lack of replays (meaning that people couldn't analyze his timings to the ground)
I mean boxer was still a force to be reckoned with when replays came but after that he diminished.
Bo1 and shorter series are really ruthless and less forgiving.
Look at how the SPL works compared to IPL, the advantage the 1st seed of the season has is simply preparation time - and often this is an advantage which overcame the challenger's momentum, to me IM should've lost that finals but because of the riddicolous advantage of winner bracket they didn't, and even then a bo7 (9? I don't remember which one) is even really forgiving as well.
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On August 30 2012 16:53 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 10:50 Maghetti wrote:
I really hope to see more builds like Flyings build developed and used in sc2. sc2 pros seems to largely go super econ builds, "safe" builds like 1rax expand, and allin builds. I love seeing builds that get up some production/tech and attacks to get an advantage while still getting econ up. I hope to see more of this from the bw guys. Economy and greed is the current trend. This is what some people in this thread have been trying to say: The kespa players are really messing with the sc2 metagame because they do old builds sometimes (like flyings immortal push) when the current metagame is greed and greed and hard teching. This, along with the bo1 does give the kespa players a slight advantage. Im not saying this because i hate kespa or whatever, im a fan of good sc2 games no matter who is playing. But you cant deny that bo1 is likely to result in more upsets etc. Dont we quite often see koreans win 2 - 1 against foreigners in tournaments when we all know that the korean is a much better player? Its not uncommon for the korean to lose the first map either. I dont mean that kespa players are better or worse, im just talking about the effects of bo1 format. Ask yourself if there is a reason for a final to be bo5, or bo7, other than more entertainment and adds. But this is just how it is, its not like OSL have created this format to benefit the kespa players in the battle against ESF. Afaik this format has been the standard for OSL for a very long time. Accept the situation, its not the end of the world if your favourite player loses a bo1, and its not evidence of any domination by anyone. Everyone should be happy about the addition of the kespa players to the sc2 scene, because together with the ESF players they are likely to produce more and better sc2 games in the near future than we have ever seen.
... and players are supposed to punish those who think they can get away with greedy builds.
*Eye roll*
There is no need to make excuses for or against what we're seeing man. It's perfectly normal to see this happen. It's not like the players haven't seen this before.
There is no advantage for any side. Do the time, punish the player, get the advantage and win.
The results are always going to be mixed so get used to it.
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On August 30 2012 20:31 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 19:06 opterown wrote:On August 30 2012 17:56 Squeegy wrote:On August 30 2012 17:31 opterown wrote:On August 30 2012 17:25 Squeegy wrote:On August 30 2012 15:18 mrtomjones wrote:On August 30 2012 11:09 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 08:05 Heavenlee wrote:On August 30 2012 06:51 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2012 06:34 mrtomjones wrote:
[quote]
Ummm what? 75% of the crap spewed comes from BW elitist fans. The elephant article was written by a BW elitist fanboy and was the first time I saw any conflict between the fan groups specifically pertaining to SC2. The only arguments from before that were the BW fans saying how much better their game is and how they don't enjoy watching SC2. Perhaps BW fans should simply accept that not every SC2 fan will know a ton about BW and that it is not an insult if they don't have time to learn about it. Many Sc2 fans expressed excitement about the BW players joining them and an expansion to their community. I very much doubt this is the way they expected it to go down. Stop acting so god damned elitist and like you shit Lannister gold and perhaps you would see less crap spewed. From what I can tell the huge majority of SC2 fans simply want both sides to perform well and for the people that they have cheered for two years to have continued success. I hope that Kespa players do well and I hope that the top ESF players continue doing well too. That article is suppose to be taken as an education piece of work. A work that could very well reflect on the future of the StarCraft 2 scene. The author's intend was to teach TeamLiquid's newly acquired StarCraft 2 fans about the 'other side of the gate'. Yes it might hit a touchy string in the heart of many people as they have became quite fond of some of their players. That's comprehensible on my part. But however, it does echoes sounds of truth and was very prescient on the following sequence of things. At heart, it suppose to give hope to the fans about the upcoming events that could potentially change their whole point of views on professional StarCraft gaming. But then it met with multiple of relentless attack reigned from the new fans. But these attacks are not based on logical reason or by looking at what the facts present themselves in front of their eyes. No these strikes came from their emotional egomaniac of new-kid-on-the-block-attitude. Instead of acknowledging it with humble humility, they put up their pitchforks and waged war upon the site's veterans. That's not the worst part yet, they have also developed an irrational abhorrence toward the grandfather of culturing altering's perspective on professional gaming, the predessor itself Brood War. And thus came the posts about "BW is a dead game", "Stop trying to change 'our' game for the better, if you want to obtain things that make BW great, you can just go back playing that game." And that's the exact attitude that the Brood War originated fans detest with the greatest passion possible. And it is up to 'us' to individually educate the uninformed about the entire Korean's professional gaming scene, their structure of the system, and its historical aspect. Educational piece of work, intent to teach TL sc2 fans about BW, give hope to the fans about upcoming events...
Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats.
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.
Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment
Wow, what a great educational, enlightening article it was, huh? I don't really see why SC2 fans are being so uptight when he was really just trying to tell us about how nice the skill level will be when BW pros switch over. Those comments should definitely be accepted with humble humility huh? I'm sure if you went to any other game and called the pros complete shit because they aren't Kespa players, they would agree and perhaps beg you to teach them more, but the SC2 fans are just so egotistical right? Everyone knows people like MC didn't succeed in Brood War, that doesn't mean you have to write condescending posts about how you have to "educate" us about how good Kespa players are. It's not an "irrational abhorrence" to Brood War, why would anyone have anything bad to say about BW specifically? Almost no one dislikes Brood War or claims that wasn't a great game with many talented, dedicated players that have now switched to SC2. People root against Kespa players because of people like you and the writer of the elephant article who are mindnumbingly condescending because you watch spent years of your life watching people play a video game in Korea and now think you're some kind of revered buddha of esports. Even if you are somehow superior for having watched BW for a long time, that's pretty much the equivalent of walking up to someone reading a book and going "Are you seriously reading that inferior series? Try some Dostoyevsky or Tolstoy, they were far more talented writers than this scumbag who only has a career because of writers like him. I can't believe their books are even sold in the same store, and that people like this guy." Even if you're right, you're still a condescending elitist. You being part of the forum equivalent of a private book club doesn't make you special. Some people just want some entertainment and to root for their players. MC's my favorite player, apparently that I get offended when someone calls him complete trash not fit to lick Flash's shoes makes me "an emotional egomaniac new-kid-on-the-block." Yep the central message behind the article should definitely be taught in the heat of moment. See if it wasn't written back then, there would be way less hype induced around the notion of Kespa players making the switch. But because it was articulated, it heated up the topic. If it wasn't the same identical author that produced it, it would be someone else. Oh yeah if you want talk about people shitting on Brood War, you should just visit some of the suggestions the BW communities made to enhance the StarCraft 2 experience. And also you should pay attention to some of the StarCraft 2 fan's attitude toward the game by saying that the big names in StarCraft:Brood War should make the switch because they are wasting their time on it. Or speaking nonsense like "BW is dead." See if you don't want us to dangle around sensitive topics a la Elephant, some of the StarCraft 2 fans. Now I want to note that I did not say all of the StarCraft 2 fans because that some is actually in the sub 50% of population could use some history lessons. BW pro scene is dead. I think that sucks as I was watching it a bit towards the end again but meh. That is unless you want to watch China which I think still has pro leagues. I wish both games could keep going but one didn't. Saying that doesn't mean you are insulting it. You really are delusional though... nice book of nonsense you wrote. I think he meant in the past, before Kespa began the transition to SC2. Of course the SC2 fans probably mostly meant no harm. They just wanted to see all the players united under one game in the name of esports. However, that is not what many of the BW fans cared about. They didn't care about esports as a whole, they cared about BW. So naturally, the SC2 fans ended up stepping on a lot of people's toes. I also don't understand why people are so terribly hurt by the Kespa vs ESF argument. It generally comes with sports that you rub it in when your team or player wins. I think most people would agree that this fan rivalry only makes the competition more interesting (that is not to say, some people don't go overboard). If you want to simply enjoy good games then why don't you do that? Nothing is stopping you. You however choose to take part in a discussion that is outside of that scope. It is possible to have multile topics going on in a thread, so why don't you just contribute to a different topic? It's not like we're sharpening our blades or taking out our baseball bats to go fight each other on the streets. There is no harm done. The best players will end up on the top eventually and whoever ended up being wrong will learn to shut up (except the ESF fans, they'll just come up with excuses). That is when this discussion will end. And then there will either be nothing going on, making the competition dull, or something similar, starting it all over again. Such is life. Everything is good under the sun. one of the more reasonable posts i've seen from you :p however, it's difficult to ignore topics too, haha, we're only human. i've done what i can to not get drawn into this discussion too much, but it has been a disappointing read to say the least, with both sides going at each other. Rather than just looking at my posts, you should try reading them too. Perhaps then you would find that they're not quite as unreasonable as you assume. People just like to read more into my words than I say when they should only read what I actually say. lol i read plenty, here's me hoping you keep your posts like this and not flamebait or be snide Sometimes a reasonable post can be a flamebait. All it needs to do is disagree heavily enough with a differing opinion. That baits flames from the unreasonable. It doesn't mean I am being unreasonable. And being snide? Sure, but being snide has not much to do with being reasonable. It is simply a matter of style of the post. I thought you implied I am often not reasonable. If that is what you think, then I am afraid, it is really just a matter of you not understanding what you read. Or that you read more in my posts than what I write.
Your argument is well-phrased but your logic is flawed. You write of "style" as if you have no control over what you write or as if it was something that guided your fingers to type, when it is actually the opposite. By your logic, I could write all my posts like I am an asshole (which is very easy for me to do) and simply say it is my style when everyone gets pissed at me. If anyone disagrees with me, well then they read what I wrote wrong, they should try reading it again b/c after all, what I wrote is still correct....
I will say again that this round-robin, 1-game-a-day format really allows the Kespa players the best chance to succeed for obvious reasons. I like the choice by the organizers (although I don't know if it has always been like this?).
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On August 30 2012 22:22 Iplaythings wrote:
So by your logic, is that we should have a one-dimensional type of players who HAS to have mechanics as their best strength?
By that logic Boxer should've never been succesful as a BW player as he was one to thrive in preparation of special builds and the lack of replays (meaning that people couldn't analyze his timings to the ground)
I mean boxer was still a force to be reckoned with when replays came but after that he diminished.
Bo1 and shorter series are really ruthless and less forgiving.
Look at how the SPL works compared to IPL, the advantage the 1st seed of the season has is simply preparation time - and often this is an advantage which overcame the challenger's momentum, to me IM should've lost that finals but because of the riddicolous advantage of winner bracket they didn't, and even then a bo7 (9? I don't remember which one) is even really forgiving as well.
Actually the opposite of what you are saying exemplifies a one-dimentional one-trick pony. Boxer was successful not only because of his special builds, but because he can continuously surprise people with hundreds of special builds even in a Bo5 or 7.
Bo1 is easy for a one trick pony to keep on winning because he'll always just need to trick his opponent once and be gone with it. If this person is truly multi-dimensional, then he should have no problem coming up with 7 special builds with different timings in a Bo7.
Let me put it this way.
Bo1 = winner with best build
Nonstop games = winner with best mechanics
But Bo5/7 = Best build prep + endurance + mechanic. Which in turn shows that only the BEST of the BEST can survive in this type or format.
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Why the hell is there so much discussion about a format that has worked for years in the OSL?
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On August 31 2012 03:14 ndralcasid wrote:
Why the hell is there so much discussion about a format that has worked for years in the OSL?
It's not really a discussion as much as people just stating the obvious. The format might have been there for years but the situation has never been the same, hence the difference from years past. I don't think I've read anyone saying the format should change, just how it is beneficial in this case for certain players by looking at all the factors involved (posts on this topic are poor so I admittedly havent read much so it's possible). Doesn't take away anything from these players' victories either.
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Personally I just think Sc2 is a lot more volatile to BW, so BO1 may sometime produce lower quality games due to build order wins.
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I think in like 3 months the Kespa players will just dominate the scene.
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On August 30 2012 22:22 Iplaythings wrote:
So by your logic, is that we should have a one-dimensional type of players who HAS to have mechanics as their best strength?
By that logic Boxer should've never been succesful as a BW player as he was one to thrive in preparation of special builds and the lack of replays (meaning that people couldn't analyze his timings to the ground)
I mean boxer was still a force to be reckoned with when replays came but after that he diminished.
Bo1 and shorter series are really ruthless and less forgiving.
Look at how the SPL works compared to IPL, the advantage the 1st seed of the season has is simply preparation time - and often this is an advantage which overcame the challenger's momentum, to me IM should've lost that finals but because of the riddicolous advantage of winner bracket they didn't, and even then a bo7 (9? I don't remember which one) is even really forgiving as well.
Please do not speak of what you do not know.
Boxer was the hero of the non macro era, you have to understand that when he was the best, no one knew how to macro on any scale anywhere close to what an average d+ player could now. The reason for this is THEY had nothing, and THEY built the rts mechanics that we now understand. The real macro revolution didnt happen till midas which was far far after the game had left boxers reach. I mean honestly the dude has not been relevant in broodwar (as a player because he is still god) since like 2004,
I know a lot of you guys take our admiration of him to mean that we think hes some sort of exceptional insane player. When it comes down to it, most of us bw players in our current form would smash through old school boxer, and all the old school players, they were what we would consider bad, this is a b iccup player talking, not some mega insane korean a+ pro. The current kespa players are on another level entirely.
With that being said you guys are missing a huge point, THIS IS HOW THE OSL HAS ALWAYS BEEN. This best of one style as much as people may say is unfair is incredibly balanced at this stage of the tournament. Where do I get my evidence? The years and years of OSL. Most of the time both the OSL and MSL have what we would consider the BEST player at the time win and it is incredibly consistent. Yes certain players choke, yes sometimes we have a lame final, but those are anomalies and special situations. When you consider that outside of 4 finals in the last. jesus man has it really been, like 5 years have featured either Flash, JD, Bisu, or Stork, you can not complain about consistency or unfair advantages when the best players seem to always win. Thats not conjecture thats data,the good players win the titles therefore the system must work. I could go on and explain and make all kinds of reasons for it, but whats the point, the data is what the data is.
STOP TRYING TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR WHY PEOPLE LOST ON BOTH SIDES. They lost because they did not play well enough to win. This meta bull crap is stupid because if any of them wanted to they could watch the other players replays and prepare. That simple
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On August 31 2012 03:14 ndralcasid wrote:
Why the hell is there so much discussion about a format that has worked for years in the OSL?
It worked in BW OSL.
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EPT
