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On August 10 2012 22:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:04 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 10 2012 21:52 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 21:50 Causality~ wrote:
Wish we had other casters, they are so biased. But I do have to admit, its pretty funny to listen to the desperation in their voice when they try to convice them selves that Leenock could still win Yeah, either they had absolutely zero clue about the ZvZ matchup or they were just super biased. They kept calling it for Leenock in game 2 just cause he had more drones, when Roro got every single hatch earlier, had better army value, better army composition, and then started completely destroying Leenock in multi-pronged harassments/expo trades. He had roaches streaming EVERYWHERE, better defense with infestors at home, burrowing constantly to hide shit in Leenock's bases, and focusing on crippling Leenock's eco and shoving units between all of Leenock's rally points. Leenock's response was to blunder around with two big ass ctrl groups. One in Roro's base, one defending his own base. Just hilarious how big a gap there is between the two players. The mechanics of Kespa are miles ahead. No. That's why Soulkey died to Gumiho's multitasking, that's why Effort died even harder to HerO. BW is a harder game, I'm not doubting that. But SC2 is a different game with different mechanics. They're not better mechanically at this game. They got great basics though. It should also be taken into account that Soulkey/Effort are probably still learning the game and spend most of their mental power trying to remember what to do and gauging things. This is part of the whole experience/training aspect of being new to a game. I can guarantee that Effort's mechanics are far above Hero's. SC2 mechanics aren't different. They're vastly easier. You're crazy if you think more than a handful of SC2 players can even dream of competing with Effort's mechanics. That guy is a total monster. I'm not gonna argue with you. Bias good unit BW mechanics =/= SC2 mechanics. And if SC2 mechanics are "vastly easier", then they're not a deciding factor since most high level players will have them down. And since you were impressed by the multitasking Roro displayed vs Leenock, you've probably never even seen HerO play. Or Taeja. Why do I even bother.
If Taeja's mechanic were that good he would not have a bad macro for its level.
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On August 10 2012 21:52 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 21:50 Causality~ wrote:
Wish we had other casters, they are so biased. But I do have to admit, its pretty funny to listen to the desperation in their voice when they try to convice them selves that Leenock could still win Yeah, either they had absolutely zero clue about the ZvZ matchup or they were just super biased. They kept calling it for Leenock in game 2 just cause he had more drones, when Roro got every single hatch earlier, had better army value, better army composition, and then started completely destroying Leenock in multi-pronged harassments/expo trades. He had roaches streaming EVERYWHERE, better defense with infestors at home, burrowing constantly to hide shit in Leenock's bases, and focusing on crippling Leenock's eco and shoving units between all of Leenock's rally points. Leenock's response was to blunder around with two big ass ctrl groups. One in Roro's base, one defending his own base. Just hilarious how big a gap there is between the two players. The mechanics of Kespa are miles ahead.
Seriously, these two are so biased for GSL players it hurts. I wish casters would figure out how to fill time better intstead of talking out their asses about possible comebacks and straight up wrong calls. "Leenock is actually now ahead in drones here!" ~ Down 15 drones. Facepalm
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On August 10 2012 21:59 NeonFox wrote:
One ex-BW pro is doing good, and everybody says "the elephant is coming". Ex-BW pros who used to be better than Roro get stomped by mid tier sc2 players, and "oh just give them time".
Lol! MVP, MC, Nestea, And Hyun were not better then the RoRo I'm their greatest days. Know what you are talking about before coming on here blabbing your text.
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On August 10 2012 22:19 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 21:59 NeonFox wrote:
One ex-BW pro is doing good, and everybody says "the elephant is coming". Ex-BW pros who used to be better than Roro get stomped by mid tier sc2 players, and "oh just give them time". Lol! MVP, MC, Nestea, And Hyun were not better then the RoRo in their greatest days. Know what you are talking about before coming on here blabbing your text.
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On August 10 2012 22:17 Disposition1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 21:52 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 21:50 Causality~ wrote:
Wish we had other casters, they are so biased. But I do have to admit, its pretty funny to listen to the desperation in their voice when they try to convice them selves that Leenock could still win Yeah, either they had absolutely zero clue about the ZvZ matchup or they were just super biased. They kept calling it for Leenock in game 2 just cause he had more drones, when Roro got every single hatch earlier, had better army value, better army composition, and then started completely destroying Leenock in multi-pronged harassments/expo trades. He had roaches streaming EVERYWHERE, better defense with infestors at home, burrowing constantly to hide shit in Leenock's bases, and focusing on crippling Leenock's eco and shoving units between all of Leenock's rally points. Leenock's response was to blunder around with two big ass ctrl groups. One in Roro's base, one defending his own base. Just hilarious how big a gap there is between the two players. The mechanics of Kespa are miles ahead. Seriously, these two are so biased for GSL players it hurts. I wish casters would figure out how to fill time better intstead of talking out their asses about possible comebacks and straight up wrong calls. "Leenock is actually now ahead in drones here!" ~ Down 15 drones. Facepalm
Dunno about that, Khaldor is just very biased towards Leenock I think. It's always been pretty obvious in his casts that Leenock is among his very favourite players. He was cheering on Reality and loving his work so it's not pro GOM players. Overall I prefer non biased casts, but there hardly are any so I just try to ignore it these days. I find wolf to be one of the less biased casters overall.
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On August 10 2012 22:17 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:08 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 22:05 bgx wrote:On August 10 2012 22:03 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 10 2012 21:42 mikedebo wrote:On August 10 2012 21:42 FabledIntegral wrote:
Really cool seeing Roro perform well since I've watched him for so long in BW, but I honestly feel ZvZ is the least satisfying victory. PvP? Ok, I should have said for Zerg. You're completely right  . TvT is fine though (although 1 base allins aren't anything special to me either). Mirrors that go to the lategame can be another story, although PvP is pretty boring throughout (although I find it surprisingly tense to playmid-lategame due to DT drops, warp prism mass zealot warp ins, and the volatility of the battles and lack of information. That, and I've lost 3 PvPs super lategame because I had a single observer in a maxed mothership vs mothership battle T_T). BoX ZvZ is one of a kind MU. Its true that not understanding it missing 80% of joy. I still have goosebumps left from Dimaga vs nestea... how we figured out Nestea terrifing build order that basically made Nestea a god in korean ZvZ. He figured out it in 2 days. ZvZ is an incredibly skill based mu. At every point in the game, ZvZ is tense, exciting, and volatile. Banes are not just right click and watch shit blow up. Tons and tons of micro. There are a TON of different openings that can be used. A ton of transitions into mid-game. In mid-game there is fast infestor tech for defense/harass, muta tech for map control, roach busts. In late game shit goes absolutely bonkers with roach/hydra/infestor wars. I don't get how anyone can say it is a boring or luck-based matchup. Either total chobos or just clueless never played it before type kids. Well if i didnt play zerg i would see a possibilty of going with the crowd and slating it bad MU because terran has affinity to protoss gameplay and viceversa (similar economy style). But because i play zerg and started to embrace the MU i started to notice things that are unique in SC2 just like there are certain plays in PvP or TvT that are not seen in non mirror. And ZvZ is not BW ZvZ, BW ZvZ sadly is PvP of SC2 due to warpgate and the fact that larger maps dont really mandate going full eco openings while allowing for ZvZ to statistically improve (more games started as 15 hatch or 14p because of longer travel distance). edit nvm
Well he was quoting me, and I've played Zerg at a top level, and ZvZ is one of my better MUs, so.... it's the volatility that gets me. Over a large BoX I truly believe skill will dominate, but like PvP (although not as bad), individual games and Bo3's volatility of the MU (and luck) plays a heavy factor in who will win.
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On August 10 2012 22:11 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:08 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 22:05 bgx wrote:On August 10 2012 22:03 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 10 2012 21:42 mikedebo wrote:On August 10 2012 21:42 FabledIntegral wrote:
Really cool seeing Roro perform well since I've watched him for so long in BW, but I honestly feel ZvZ is the least satisfying victory. PvP? Ok, I should have said for Zerg. You're completely right . TvT is fine though (although 1 base allins aren't anything special to me either). Mirrors that go to the lategame can be another story, although PvP is pretty boring throughout (although I find it surprisingly tense to playmid-lategame due to DT drops, warp prism mass zealot warp ins, and the volatility of the battles and lack of information. That, and I've lost 3 PvPs super lategame because I had a single observer in a maxed mothership vs mothership battle T_T). BoX ZvZ is one of a kind MU. Its true that not understanding it missing 80% of joy. I still have goosebumps left from Dimaga vs nestea... how we figured out Nestea terrifing build order that basically made Nestea a god in korean ZvZ. He figured out it in 2 days. ZvZ is an incredibly skill based mu. At every point in the game, ZvZ is tense, exciting, and volatile. Banes are not just right click and watch shit blow up. Tons and tons of micro. There are a TON of different openings that can be used. A ton of transitions into mid-game. In mid-game there is fast infestor tech for defense/harass, muta tech for map control, roach busts. In late game shit goes absolutely bonkers with roach/hydra/infestor wars. I don't get how anyone can say it is a boring or luck-based matchup. Either total chobos or just clueless never played it before type kids. It's highly skilled, but that doesn't mean it's highly volatile. And the volatility is what I was referring to. ZvZ is a game where a single misclick can lose you the game in an instant. While a better player will prevent that from happening more often, that doesn't mean in individually isolated circumstances the element of luck isn't more heavily present than other matchups. This compounding with the fact BO is one of the more significant factors out of any MU, that's how I gather such a conclusion. ZvZ has also always been one of my better matchups, so it's not like I've given up on it or anything. When I was on top of my game I could beat any foreign pro out there that I encountered on ladder, with the exception of Slush, who I remember going like 0-8 vs.
Yeah but that's what I've always loved about ZvZ. It's a stressful as hell MU and a single misclick can lose you the game but arguably that's how all zerg games go. ZvP is probably the most forgiving micro-wise, but ZvT and ZvZ are both super fragile. If you engage at all wrong or misclick at a crucial moment you can lose EVERYTHING. Especially back in the day when metagame vs T was to go that heavy muta cloud and try to just dissect them with it before critical thor mass.
Also, I think at the least ZvZ in SC2 is less volatile than BW. BW was seriously coin-flippy BOs into muta-scourge wars all day.
I dno, I feel like the volatility and the intensity of the matchup just elevates it to an art-form. The better player will drop a game here and there, but in a BoX or over a few seasons, the better player will always emerge victorious. And for me, what I saw in tonight's games, Roro just plain outplayed Leenock. It wasn't like a crazy bane detonation on a drone drill or some queen bugging out while trying to block ramp. It was just straight up late-game brilliance by Roro.
Especially game 3. He cold-clocked Leenock. He did exactly the transition Leenock did to him in game 2, except way better. He dropped spines to protect his 3rd and 4th while trading, instead of just lazily sitting on 2k mineral bank like Leenock did. He kept his drone count in the 50s to get an edge in army supply, yet still always managed to squeeze out the units he needed. Constantly scouted with overseers and changelings to keep track of Leenock's army, and spread creep aggressively. He just used the typical BW level of mechanics with constant roaming armies, multi-prongs, and insane amounts of scouting. It's what I've been dying to see for so long in SC2 and NOT getting it from the GSL players. Thank god Kespa has arrived.
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On August 10 2012 22:20 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:19 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 10 2012 21:59 NeonFox wrote:
One ex-BW pro is doing good, and everybody says "the elephant is coming". Ex-BW pros who used to be better than Roro get stomped by mid tier sc2 players, and "oh just give them time". Lol! MVP, MC, Nestea, And Hyun were not better then the RoRo in their greatest days. Know what you are talking about before coming on here blabbing your text.
bisu, stork, flash, jaedong, etc were though. Its pretty obvious he was referring to other kespa players when he said 'Ex-BW pros'.
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On August 10 2012 22:06 DrPandaPhD wrote:
Some BW fans are quite ignorant. Saying BW players are better than the SC2 players because the GOM players have played SC2 for a longer time is stupid. The KeSPA players only needed to catch up to the current phase of sc2, not "re-live" everything that happend in earlier SC2 phases.
The saddest part is that the BW elitists are usually not the ones who have been following it for the longer time. Because with that reasoning, Flash would never become as good as Boxer because Boxer played the game for 5-6 years before Flash started. Learning the game goes really fast if you're a good RTS player (which they obviously are) until they hit the same slow-pushing wall that all the top SC2 players are at. Then they will get stuck there and push the game further with the top SC2 players. In another 3 months we are not going to see 100% KeSPA players which some people seem to think.
I embrace more good players to the scene, it's fun to see new styles and the more people innovating the further SC2 will get.
Of course you don't have to re-live the two years, but playing a game for two years, and having lived through the changes in strategies and such, helps you understand the game much better. It's not as simple as just learning the latest strategies that work and using your mechanics to win. You need to actually understand how the game works and how to react to different situations.
If the players who have played it at the highest level for a long time now are losing games already, it is nothing but highly impressive for the Kespa players. I often ask that if the situation was reversed, do you think the GSL players could do the same? Of course they couldn't.
Your Flash and Boxer example is actually nobody's reasoning but a strawman you just built. Nor does anyone think in 3 months we are going to see 100% Kespa players. Not only is that ridiculous considering how the tournaments work but also because of the number of tournaments. More importantly, we are perfectly fine with Kespa pros needing as much as a year to dominate. As long as they dominate, they have proven their superiority. And they will.
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On August 10 2012 22:27 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 21:53 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:43 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Clafou wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Uni1987 wrote:
elephant Don't bring this crap here. Roro slapped Leenock with a Elephant Trunk of massive force. And all the other Kespa players are doing well, too... Oh, wait -.-; This tournament has already proven the elephant in the room article wrong. Drop this bullshit and focus on the games. I did focus on the game and what I saw was Roro using his trunk and slapping players left and right. Maybe he will loose at one point but still damn he's a sexy elephant. Tuut-tuut! That article suggested that BW players would dominate SC2 players en masse within months of switching. Since that hasn't happened, the "elephant in the room" is dead. We don't need all this elephant bullshit in every SC2 thread. EDIT: "More importantly, we are perfectly fine with Kespa pros needing as much as a year to dominate. As long as they dominate, they have proven their superiority. And they will." Wrong, after a year they will be no better than people like DJRecco bursting onto the scene 
The last OSL just ended last week. And you talk about the elephant being dead? These guys are still playing 2 games. Roro was playing SC1 in proleague just this week.
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On August 10 2012 22:26 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:06 DrPandaPhD wrote:
Some BW fans are quite ignorant. Saying BW players are better than the SC2 players because the GOM players have played SC2 for a longer time is stupid. The KeSPA players only needed to catch up to the current phase of sc2, not "re-live" everything that happend in earlier SC2 phases.
The saddest part is that the BW elitists are usually not the ones who have been following it for the longer time. Because with that reasoning, Flash would never become as good as Boxer because Boxer played the game for 5-6 years before Flash started. Learning the game goes really fast if you're a good RTS player (which they obviously are) until they hit the same slow-pushing wall that all the top SC2 players are at. Then they will get stuck there and push the game further with the top SC2 players. In another 3 months we are not going to see 100% KeSPA players which some people seem to think.
I embrace more good players to the scene, it's fun to see new styles and the more people innovating the further SC2 will get. Of course you don't have to re-live the two years, but playing a game for two years, and having lived through the changes in strategies and such, helps you understand the game much better. It's not as simple as just learning the latest strategies that work and using your mechanics to win. You need to actually understand how the game works and how to react to different situations. If the players who have played it at the highest level for a long time now are losing games already, it is nothing but highly impressive for the Kespa players. I often ask that if the situation was reversed, do you think the GSL players could do the same? Of course they couldn't. Your Flash and Boxer example is actually nobody's reasoning but a strawman you just built. Nor does anyone think in 3 months we are going to see 100% Kespa players. Not only is that ridiculous considering how the tournaments work but also because of the number of tournaments. More importantly, we are perfectly fine with Kespa pros needing as much as a year to dominate. As long as they dominate, they have proven their superiority. And they will.
Commits logical fallacy and then talks about strawman. Ohh...how your empty yet wordy reply annoys and amuses me at the same time
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On August 10 2012 22:24 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:11 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 10 2012 22:08 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 22:05 bgx wrote:On August 10 2012 22:03 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 10 2012 21:42 mikedebo wrote:On August 10 2012 21:42 FabledIntegral wrote:
Really cool seeing Roro perform well since I've watched him for so long in BW, but I honestly feel ZvZ is the least satisfying victory. PvP? Ok, I should have said for Zerg. You're completely right . TvT is fine though (although 1 base allins aren't anything special to me either). Mirrors that go to the lategame can be another story, although PvP is pretty boring throughout (although I find it surprisingly tense to playmid-lategame due to DT drops, warp prism mass zealot warp ins, and the volatility of the battles and lack of information. That, and I've lost 3 PvPs super lategame because I had a single observer in a maxed mothership vs mothership battle T_T). BoX ZvZ is one of a kind MU. Its true that not understanding it missing 80% of joy. I still have goosebumps left from Dimaga vs nestea... how we figured out Nestea terrifing build order that basically made Nestea a god in korean ZvZ. He figured out it in 2 days. ZvZ is an incredibly skill based mu. At every point in the game, ZvZ is tense, exciting, and volatile. Banes are not just right click and watch shit blow up. Tons and tons of micro. There are a TON of different openings that can be used. A ton of transitions into mid-game. In mid-game there is fast infestor tech for defense/harass, muta tech for map control, roach busts. In late game shit goes absolutely bonkers with roach/hydra/infestor wars. I don't get how anyone can say it is a boring or luck-based matchup. Either total chobos or just clueless never played it before type kids. It's highly skilled, but that doesn't mean it's highly volatile. And the volatility is what I was referring to. ZvZ is a game where a single misclick can lose you the game in an instant. While a better player will prevent that from happening more often, that doesn't mean in individually isolated circumstances the element of luck isn't more heavily present than other matchups. This compounding with the fact BO is one of the more significant factors out of any MU, that's how I gather such a conclusion. ZvZ has also always been one of my better matchups, so it's not like I've given up on it or anything. When I was on top of my game I could beat any foreign pro out there that I encountered on ladder, with the exception of Slush, who I remember going like 0-8 vs. Yeah but that's what I've always loved about ZvZ. It's a stressful as hell MU and a single misclick can lose you the game but arguably that's how all zerg games go. ZvP is probably the most forgiving micro-wise, but ZvT and ZvZ are both super fragile. If you engage at all wrong or misclick at a crucial moment you can lose EVERYTHING. Especially back in the day when metagame vs T was to go that heavy muta cloud and try to just dissect them with it before critical thor mass. Also, I think at the least ZvZ in SC2 is less volatile than BW. BW was seriously coin-flippy BOs into muta-scourge wars all day. I dno, I feel like the volatility and the intensity of the matchup just elevates it to an art-form. The better player will drop a game here and there, but in a BoX or over a few seasons, the better player will always emerge victorious. And for me, what I saw in tonight's games, Roro just plain outplayed Leenock. It wasn't like a crazy bane detonation on a drone drill or some queen bugging out while trying to block ramp. It was just straight up late-game brilliance by Roro. Especially game 3. He cold-clocked Leenock. He did exactly the transition Leenock did to him in game 2, except way better. He dropped spines to protect his 3rd and 4th while trading, instead of just lazily sitting on 2k mineral bank like Leenock did. He kept his drone count in the 50s to get an edge in army supply, yet still always managed to squeeze out the units he needed. Constantly scouted with overseers and changelings to keep track of Leenock's army, and spread creep aggressively. He just used the typical BW level of mechanics with constant roaming armies, multi-prongs, and insane amounts of scouting. It's what I've been dying to see for so long in SC2 and NOT getting it from the GSL players. Thank god Kespa has arrived.
Keep in mind current ZvZ is no where near in its statistical volatility circa 2010/2011. Its not even the fact players got better but volatile styles are only used as a special plays not standard plays as it used to be. Map pools and much longer travel distance also shaped this MU nicely. Remember Tal Darim or maps that went you go 14g14p no matter what (unless you liked playing roulette). Nowadays its more up to players not the map what they want and expect. Queen buff and OV buff also helped to bring more stability. I dare to say ZvZ become incredibly micro straining while losing most of volatility thanks to less baneling centric styles.
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On August 10 2012 22:19 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 21:59 NeonFox wrote:
One ex-BW pro is doing good, and everybody says "the elephant is coming". Ex-BW pros who used to be better than Roro get stomped by mid tier sc2 players, and "oh just give them time". Lol! MVP, MC, Nestea, And Hyun were not better then the RoRo I'm their greatest days. Know what you are talking about before coming on here blabbing your text.
I think he meant ex-BW pros as in Kespa pros better than Roro. Of course his point doesn't make any sense at all even then.
Yes, if someone is not dominating now, then that doesn't mean that he won't in the near future. If Roro is able to beat one of the very best ZvZ players GSL has to offer, then I don't see why Flash wouldn't be able to do the same in the near future. Who knows, maybe he could do it already. I wouldn't be surprised. The rankings within Kespa are changing quickly, I can gurantee you that, and there is no reason to believe that Roro is the best Kespa player right now or at that he will be in the near future.
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On August 10 2012 22:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:27 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:53 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:43 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Clafou wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Uni1987 wrote:
elephant Don't bring this crap here. Roro slapped Leenock with a Elephant Trunk of massive force. And all the other Kespa players are doing well, too... Oh, wait -.-; This tournament has already proven the elephant in the room article wrong. Drop this bullshit and focus on the games. I did focus on the game and what I saw was Roro using his trunk and slapping players left and right. Maybe he will loose at one point but still damn he's a sexy elephant. Tuut-tuut! That article suggested that BW players would dominate SC2 players en masse within months of switching. Since that hasn't happened, the "elephant in the room" is dead. We don't need all this elephant bullshit in every SC2 thread. EDIT: "More importantly, we are perfectly fine with Kespa pros needing as much as a year to dominate. As long as they dominate, they have proven their superiority. And they will." Wrong, after a year they will be no better than people like DJRecco bursting onto the scene The last OSL just ended last week. And you talk about the elephant being dead? These guys are still playing 2 games. Roro was playing SC1 in proleague just this week.
Preach my good man!
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On August 10 2012 22:27 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 21:53 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:43 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Clafou wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Uni1987 wrote:
elephant Don't bring this crap here. Roro slapped Leenock with a Elephant Trunk of massive force. And all the other Kespa players are doing well, too... Oh, wait -.-; This tournament has already proven the elephant in the room article wrong. Drop this bullshit and focus on the games. I did focus on the game and what I saw was Roro using his trunk and slapping players left and right. Maybe he will loose at one point but still damn he's a sexy elephant. Tuut-tuut! That article suggested that BW players would dominate SC2 players en masse within months of switching. Since that hasn't happened, the "elephant in the room" is dead. We don't need all this elephant bullshit in every SC2 thread. EDIT: To the guy above: Show nested quote +More importantly, we are perfectly fine with Kespa pros needing as much as a year to dominate. As long as they dominate, they have proven their superiority. And they will." Wrong, after a year they will be no better than people like DJRecco bursting onto the scene
Elephant is here to stay. In 6 month it will be close to total domination and when HotS comes it is all over and the elephants will stomp around like rabid ultras with stimpack!
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It's interesting to look at player history:
RorO's an older player; he's changed teams; but also recently he developed quite a bit. He used to be best in ZvT in BroodWar, with truly abysmal ZvP (go find VODs of any RorO vs Jaehoon game if you don't believe me) and unpredictable ZvZ. About a year ago, he showed some really improved ZvP and his ZvZ was getting better: it looked like he was (finally) a more complete player. And much as what I've described of RorO makes him sound like a "meh" player, on WeMade he often drew ace game duty (with Mind and later BaBy): he wasn't really an S-class player, but he was a pretty good player often playing above his level, which hurt his record as well.
Recently, though, he hasn't been doing well at all in BW. It's not just older-gamer mechanical fall-off: he's beaten players like  Action, Hydra,  mini,  PianO, and BaBy - but he's not winning consistently even at his career 50% rate. To me that suggests he's been concentrating on SC2 practice more than Brood War.
I'm not saying that "well obviously if every KeSPA player was practicing they'd be better trololol" because that's dumb. But I wouldn't be surprised if, say, Jangbi and Flash and fantasy and ZerO, start making giant strides in the next few months in SC2 skill. There's also the wild card of motivation - unmotivated players with huge skill (free, bored-Stork, post-July-BeSt) still don't do very well, and that's likely a factor in the transition. Conversely, a motivated player who's not great can get some things done: M18M (a pure PvT sniper in BW), while on ACE (of all teams) was one of the first KeSPA players to look solid, like he "got" the new game. I haven't seen him play for a while; maybe he's been passed up again by now.
I guess what I'm saying is something like this: I don't want to make predictions for any given players, but BW players have a lot of experience in working in the RTS "environment", and I feel like the ones who really are motivated to learn and play the new game will be at least challenging Code S players by the end of the year. RorO seems to be one; Flash is Flash; others we'll see them as they start showing up I guess.
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On August 10 2012 22:19 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 21:59 NeonFox wrote:
One ex-BW pro is doing good, and everybody says "the elephant is coming". Ex-BW pros who used to be better than Roro get stomped by mid tier sc2 players, and "oh just give them time". Lol! MVP, MC, Nestea, And Hyun were not better then the RoRo I'm their greatest days. Know what you are talking about before coming on here blabbing your text.
Exactly. And what more with Jaedong and Effort eventually catching up...
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On August 10 2012 22:31 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:19 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 10 2012 21:59 NeonFox wrote:
One ex-BW pro is doing good, and everybody says "the elephant is coming". Ex-BW pros who used to be better than Roro get stomped by mid tier sc2 players, and "oh just give them time". Lol! MVP, MC, Nestea, And Hyun were not better then the RoRo I'm their greatest days. Know what you are talking about before coming on here blabbing your text. I think he meant ex-BW pros as in Kespa pros better than Roro. Of course his point doesn't make any sense at all even then. Yes, if someone is not dominating now, then that doesn't mean that he won't in the near future. If Roro is able to beat one of the very best ZvZ players GSL has to offer, then I don't see why Flash wouldn't be able to do the same in the near future. Who knows, maybe he could do it already. I wouldn't be surprised. The rankings within Kespa are changing quickly, I can gurantee you that, and there is no reason to believe that Roro is the best Kespa player right now or at that he will be in the near future.
ye and maybe not...
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On August 10 2012 22:24 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:11 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 10 2012 22:08 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 22:05 bgx wrote:On August 10 2012 22:03 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 10 2012 21:42 mikedebo wrote:On August 10 2012 21:42 FabledIntegral wrote:
Really cool seeing Roro perform well since I've watched him for so long in BW, but I honestly feel ZvZ is the least satisfying victory. PvP? Ok, I should have said for Zerg. You're completely right . TvT is fine though (although 1 base allins aren't anything special to me either). Mirrors that go to the lategame can be another story, although PvP is pretty boring throughout (although I find it surprisingly tense to playmid-lategame due to DT drops, warp prism mass zealot warp ins, and the volatility of the battles and lack of information. That, and I've lost 3 PvPs super lategame because I had a single observer in a maxed mothership vs mothership battle T_T). BoX ZvZ is one of a kind MU. Its true that not understanding it missing 80% of joy. I still have goosebumps left from Dimaga vs nestea... how we figured out Nestea terrifing build order that basically made Nestea a god in korean ZvZ. He figured out it in 2 days. ZvZ is an incredibly skill based mu. At every point in the game, ZvZ is tense, exciting, and volatile. Banes are not just right click and watch shit blow up. Tons and tons of micro. There are a TON of different openings that can be used. A ton of transitions into mid-game. In mid-game there is fast infestor tech for defense/harass, muta tech for map control, roach busts. In late game shit goes absolutely bonkers with roach/hydra/infestor wars. I don't get how anyone can say it is a boring or luck-based matchup. Either total chobos or just clueless never played it before type kids. It's highly skilled, but that doesn't mean it's highly volatile. And the volatility is what I was referring to. ZvZ is a game where a single misclick can lose you the game in an instant. While a better player will prevent that from happening more often, that doesn't mean in individually isolated circumstances the element of luck isn't more heavily present than other matchups. This compounding with the fact BO is one of the more significant factors out of any MU, that's how I gather such a conclusion. ZvZ has also always been one of my better matchups, so it's not like I've given up on it or anything. When I was on top of my game I could beat any foreign pro out there that I encountered on ladder, with the exception of Slush, who I remember going like 0-8 vs. Yeah but that's what I've always loved about ZvZ. It's a stressful as hell MU and a single misclick can lose you the game but arguably that's how all zerg games go. ZvP is probably the most forgiving micro-wise, but ZvT and ZvZ are both super fragile. If you engage at all wrong or misclick at a crucial moment you can lose EVERYTHING. Especially back in the day when metagame vs T was to go that heavy muta cloud and try to just dissect them with it before critical thor mass. Also, I think at the least ZvZ in SC2 is less volatile than BW. BW was seriously coin-flippy BOs into muta-scourge wars all day. I dno, I feel like the volatility and the intensity of the matchup just elevates it to an art-form. The better player will drop a game here and there, but in a BoX or over a few seasons, the better player will always emerge victorious. And for me, what I saw in tonight's games, Roro just plain outplayed Leenock. It wasn't like a crazy bane detonation on a drone drill or some queen bugging out while trying to block ramp. It was just straight up late-game brilliance by Roro. Especially game 3. He cold-clocked Leenock. He did exactly the transition Leenock did to him in game 2, except way better. He dropped spines to protect his 3rd and 4th while trading, instead of just lazily sitting on 2k mineral bank like Leenock did. He kept his drone count in the 50s to get an edge in army supply, yet still always managed to squeeze out the units he needed. Constantly scouted with overseers and changelings to keep track of Leenock's army, and spread creep aggressively. He just used the typical BW level of mechanics with constant roaming armies, multi-prongs, and insane amounts of scouting. It's what I've been dying to see for so long in SC2 and NOT getting it from the GSL players. Thank god Kespa has arrived.
But see, that volatility in individual games and Bo3's is what causes it to be somewhat more luck based. For example, I think a Bo7 ZvZ will much more likely have the winner with "more skill" than a Bo7 in PvP.
My ZvT slightly off topic opinion
+ Show Spoiler +ZvT is honestly not that fragile, imo. You generally have time to prepare what's coming, etc. The only way it could be fragile is if a siege tank shot aggros your unit into running into battle. Otherwise, it's highly microable on both sides, although definitely more on the Terran side (siege tanks focus firing banelings, marines and potentially marauders splitting, and keeping medivacs safe from mutas) while Zerg needs to ensure banelings don't clump up (an issue if you use move command) but at the same time don't smash into tanks (if you use A move), while mutas need to target either medivacs/tanks, and then of course the infestors come into the equation. But really, you lose a handful of units, and you can still come back on either side np.
You lose all your lings in a ZvZ battle midgame results in your opponent taking your third and yours being denied, save for some counterattack fuckup.
I play Random on NA btw, high masters level. Haven't gotten GM in a while, but I'll go on midseason streaks where I'm playing for the most part top 20 GM's, so I get exposure to pretty much all our ladder has to offer. Still get beat down by players like Vines every time though when he was playing more regularly.
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EPT
