EPT[WCS KR] WR2 D1 - Page 58
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
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seansye
United States1722 Posts
On August 10 2012 21:52 Alaiz wrote: I'm so glad that RoRo has won this game against Leenock. RoRo showed a lot of game sense and multitasking. The most impressive thing is that he started playing SC2 since April-May on half of their time, whereas Leenock is playing it for 2 years at full time... I wonder how some of the current Pro gamer foreigners feel about this situation. Their chance of winning tournaments are decreasing and they are going to get crowded out by the huge influx of all the Kespa players. Obviously, the top foreigners like Stephano, Nani, Thorzain, Sase, etc can and will still compete, but I wonder how pros like Catz, Destiny, Incontrol, etc, who have been playing the game since release are already being outplayed by players who have only been practicing for 3-6 months. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On August 10 2012 21:52 StorkHwaiting wrote: Yeah, either they had absolutely zero clue about the ZvZ matchup or they were just super biased. They kept calling it for Leenock in game 2 just cause he had more drones, when Roro got every single hatch earlier, had better army value, better army composition, and then started completely destroying Leenock in multi-pronged harassments/expo trades. He had roaches streaming EVERYWHERE, better defense with infestors at home, burrowing constantly to hide shit in Leenock's bases, and focusing on crippling Leenock's eco and shoving units between all of Leenock's rally points. Leenock's response was to blunder around with two big ass ctrl groups. One in Roro's base, one defending his own base. Just hilarious how big a gap there is between the two players. The mechanics of Kespa are miles ahead. No. That's why Soulkey died to Gumiho's multitasking, that's why Effort died even harder to HerO. BW is a harder game, I'm not doubting that. But SC2 is a different game with different mechanics. They're not better mechanically at this game. They got great basics though. | ||
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anarchyattack
Sweden54 Posts
On August 10 2012 21:58 FuzzyJAM wrote: KeSPA player wins a series 2-1 = game over for the GSL guys. Gorgeous logic. 2 macro games = Kespa player win. 1 fast game = GSL player win. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
 but Leenock definitely was in good shape and still p.s. Just noticed there's a loser's bracket. Some of these Kespa players were pretty close to winning the matches they lost, so perhaps at least one more of them will be able to make a good run in the loser's bracket. We are up for some more elephant candy. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Ok, I should have said for Zerg. You're completely right . TvT is fine though (although 1 base allins aren't anything special to me either).Mirrors that go to the lategame can be another story, although PvP is pretty boring throughout (although I find it surprisingly tense to playmid-lategame due to DT drops, warp prism mass zealot warp ins, and the volatility of the battles and lack of information. That, and I've lost 3 PvPs super lategame because I had a single observer in a maxed mothership vs mothership battle T_T). On August 10 2012 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: No. That's why Soulkey died to Gumiho's multitasking, that's why Effort died even harder to HerO. BW is a harder game, I'm not doubting that. But SC2 is a different game with different mechanics. They're not better mechanically at this game. They got great basics though. There's some truth to this. Mechanically the two games are more similar than they could be compared to any other RTS game out there, and that cannot be ignored, as well as how the units interact (how fast they die, types of abilities, etc.). The biggest thing that gets taking used to beyond the basics is exactly how to deal with enemy multitasking - it's not that they can't do it themselves, they aren't used to the type of it. Mass medivac harass was not an issue in BW. Of course dropship harass existed, but there was no incentive to create mass dropships from your starports - rather you'd use them to mass produce science vessels, which involved insane multitasking in a COMPLETELY different regard. That, and adapting to marines getting stuck behind mineral lines so easily, it wasn't quite the same, not to mention the balance itself was different. I think the multitasking changes are what's hitting the BW players the hardest, which is somewhat counter intuitive, just because of exponentially higher level of multitasking BW required. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On August 10 2012 21:58 FuzzyJAM wrote: KeSPA player wins a series 2-1 = game over for the GSL guys. Gorgeous logic. Well we had so far Reality > Heart , Shine , Symbol , YuGiOh , almost beat Puzzle . Roro > Hack , Leenock . Some other notable wins in the first qualifiers Zero > Tassadar , Light > Jjakji , there are some others as well , so it's safe to say that the top Kespa players can at least compete with the GOM players at this point in time . On August 10 2012 21:59 seansye wrote: I wonder how some of the current Pro gamer foreigners feel about this situation. Their chance of winning tournaments are decreasing and they are going to get crowded out by the huge influx of all the Kespa players. Obviously, the top foreigners like Stephano, Nani, Thorzain, Sase, etc can and will still compete, but I wonder how pros like Catz, Destiny, Incontrol, etc, who have been playing the game since release are already being outplayed by players who have only been practicing for 3-6 months. We probably won't see Kespa players competing outside of MLG WCS WCG tournaments outside of Korea . | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On August 10 2012 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: No. That's why Soulkey died to Gumiho's multitasking, that's why Effort died even harder to HerO. BW is a harder game, I'm not doubting that. But SC2 is a different game with different mechanics. They're not better mechanically at this game. They got great basics though. It should also be taken into account that Soulkey/Effort are probably still learning the game and spend most of their mental power trying to remember what to do and gauging things. This is part of the whole experience/training aspect of being new to a game. I can guarantee that Effort's mechanics are far above Hero's. SC2 mechanics aren't different. They're vastly easier. You're crazy if you think more than a handful of SC2 players can even dream of competing with Effort's mechanics. That guy is a total monster. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Ok, I should have said for Zerg. You're completely right . TvT is fine though (although 1 base allins aren't anything special to me either).Mirrors that go to the lategame can be another story, although PvP is pretty boring throughout (although I find it surprisingly tense to playmid-lategame due to DT drops, warp prism mass zealot warp ins, and the volatility of the battles and lack of information. That, and I've lost 3 PvPs super lategame because I had a single observer in a maxed mothership vs mothership battle T_T). BoX ZvZ is one of a kind MU. Its true that not understanding it missing 80% of joy. I still have goosebumps left from Dimaga vs nestea... how we figured out Nestea terrifing build order that basically made Nestea a god in korean ZvZ. He figured out it in 2 days. | ||
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
The saddest part is that the BW elitists are usually not the ones who have been following it for the longer time. Because with that reasoning, Flash would never become as good as Boxer because Boxer played the game for 5-6 years before Flash started. Learning the game goes really fast if you're a good RTS player (which they obviously are) until they hit the same slow-pushing wall that all the top SC2 players are at. Then they will get stuck there and push the game further with the top SC2 players. In another 3 months we are not going to see 100% KeSPA players which some people seem to think. I embrace more good players to the scene, it's fun to see new styles and the more people innovating the further SC2 will get. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:03 raga4ka wrote: Well we had so far Reality > Heart , Shine , Symbol , YuGiOh , almost beat Puzzle . Roro > Hack , Leenock . Some other notable wins in the first qualifiers Zero > Tassadar , Light > Jjakji , there are some others as well , so it's safe to say that the top Kespa players can at least compete with the GOM players at this point in time . Yeah, the very best KeSPA players can compete with anyone. My issue is with people who think this somehow means that the GSL players are done with. The top 50 SC2 pros right now are still almost entirely made up of non-KeSPA players who are only now starting to break into the ranks slightly. | ||
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mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Ok, I should have said for Zerg. You're completely right . TvT is fine though (although 1 base allins aren't anything special to me either).Mirrors that go to the lategame can be another story, although PvP is pretty boring throughout (although I find it surprisingly tense to playmid-lategame due to DT drops, warp prism mass zealot warp ins, and the volatility of the battles and lack of information. That, and I've lost 3 PvPs super lategame because I had a single observer in a maxed mothership vs mothership battle T_T). lol I don't play SC2, I just watch. I loved watching PvP until a couple of months ago when they all started to look the same to me, but maybe that's because I don't understand the subtlety of what's going on. I just hate how two maxed armies can insta-obliterate each other. I actually enjoy watching ZvZ because (a) I don't have to play it, and (b) I like zergling slap-fights. It's like watching a street fight! | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:05 bgx wrote: BoX ZvZ is one of a kind MU. Its true that not understanding it missing 80% of joy. I still have goosebumps left from Dimaga vs nestea... how we figured out Nestea terrifing build order that basically made Nestea a god in korean ZvZ. He figured out it in 2 days. I understand it "completely" (maybe not to the extent of a Korean GM/high masters, but more than 99.99% of observers). I was a former GM Zerg and have beaten Dimaga in a ZvZ before^^ (although admittedly, on ladder, and he MIGHT have toyed with me a little bit since he was streaming to please views  ). | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:05 bgx wrote: BoX ZvZ is one of a kind MU. Its true that not understanding it missing 80% of joy. I still have goosebumps left from Dimaga vs nestea... how we figured out Nestea terrifing build order that basically made Nestea a god in korean ZvZ. He figured out it in 2 days. ZvZ is an incredibly skill based mu. At every point in the game, ZvZ is tense, exciting, and volatile. Banes are not just right click and watch shit blow up. Tons and tons of micro. There are a TON of different openings that can be used. A ton of transitions into mid-game. In mid-game there is fast infestor tech for defense/harass, muta tech for map control, roach busts. In late game shit goes absolutely bonkers with roach/hydra/infestor wars. I don't get how anyone can say it is a boring or luck-based matchup. Either total chobos or just clueless never played it before type kids. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:04 StorkHwaiting wrote: It should also be taken into account that Soulkey/Effort are probably still learning the game and spend most of their mental power trying to remember what to do and gauging things. This is part of the whole experience/training aspect of being new to a game. I can guarantee that Effort's mechanics are far above Hero's. SC2 mechanics aren't different. They're vastly easier. You're crazy if you think more than a handful of SC2 players can even dream of competing with Effort's mechanics. That guy is a total monster. We will see. It's pointless to say anything now. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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orbs
Philippines26 Posts
On August 10 2012 21:52 StorkHwaiting wrote: Yeah, either they had absolutely zero clue about the ZvZ matchup or they were just super biased. They kept calling it for Leenock in game 2 just cause he had more drones, when Roro got every single hatch earlier, had better army value, better army composition, and then started completely destroying Leenock in multi-pronged harassments/expo trades. He had roaches streaming EVERYWHERE, better defense with infestors at home, burrowing constantly to hide shit in Leenock's bases, and focusing on crippling Leenock's eco and shoving units between all of Leenock's rally points. Leenock's response was to blunder around with two big ass ctrl groups. One in Roro's base, one defending his own base. Just hilarious how big a gap there is between the two players. The mechanics of Kespa are miles ahead. I thought as well that the mechanics gap was glaring in those games. From what I saw, seemed like Roro was using a couple more control groups than Leenock to pull off those plays. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:04 StorkHwaiting wrote: It should also be taken into account that Soulkey/Effort are probably still learning the game and spend most of their mental power trying to remember what to do and gauging things. This is part of the whole experience/training aspect of being new to a game. I can guarantee that Effort's mechanics are far above Hero's. SC2 mechanics aren't different. They're vastly easier. You're crazy if you think more than a handful of SC2 players can even dream of competing with Effort's mechanics. That guy is a total monster. I'm not gonna argue with you. Bias good unit BW mechanics =/= SC2 mechanics. And if SC2 mechanics are "vastly easier", then they're not a deciding factor since most high level players will have them down. And since you were impressed by the multitasking Roro displayed vs Leenock, you've probably never even seen HerO play. Or Taeja. Why do I even bother. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:08 StorkHwaiting wrote: ZvZ is an incredibly skill based mu. At every point in the game, ZvZ is tense, exciting, and volatile. Banes are not just right click and watch shit blow up. Tons and tons of micro. There are a TON of different openings that can be used. A ton of transitions into mid-game. In mid-game there is fast infestor tech for defense/harass, muta tech for map control, roach busts. In late game shit goes absolutely bonkers with roach/hydra/infestor wars. I don't get how anyone can say it is a boring or luck-based matchup. Either total chobos or just clueless never played it before type kids. It's highly skilled, but that doesn't mean it's highly volatile. And the volatility is what I was referring to. ZvZ is a game where a single misclick can lose you the game in an instant. While a better player will prevent that from happening more often, that doesn't mean in individually isolated circumstances the element of luck isn't more heavily present than other matchups. This compounding with the fact BO is one of the more significant factors out of any MU, that's how I gather such a conclusion. ZvZ has also always been one of my better matchups, so it's not like I've given up on it or anything. When I was on top of my game I could beat any foreign pro out there that I encountered on ladder, with the exception of Slush, who I remember going like 0-8 vs. On August 10 2012 22:11 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm not gonna argue with you. Bias good unit BW mechanics =/= SC2 mechanics. And if SC2 mechanics are "vastly easier", then they're not a deciding factor since most high level players will have them down. And since you were impressed by the multitasking Roro displayed vs Leenock, you've probably never even seen HerO play. Or Taeja. Why do I even bother. Mechanics rant. + Show Spoiler + Oh mechanics are vastly easier... you won't find a single BW or SC2 pro trying to argue that. You're finding former D+/C- BW players that played the games for years that can easily compete with top level pros in SC2. I was a C gamer with 100 APM that relied completely on tactics and outthinking my opponent to win (I don't play standard in either games, although I play heavily macro oriented). I would go 40-60 vs other more solid C players, go 10-90 vs solid C+ gamers, and had a handful of victories ever vs B- gamers. Everything was purely due to mechanics, didn't matter how much of a BO win I could get. I remember vs a B gamer once he freely let me kill a hatchery and two sunkens and mass lings early game at the expense of two cannons (pretty much allin strat), and he slapped me down so hard. That B gamer couldn't have taken a single game off IdrA in 50 games (assuming IdrA knew it was a B player). BW mechanics weren't just harder, they were far more than twice or three times as hard. Doesn't mean I miss the game or want to go back, or that it will transition. But I haven't even met a single SC2 player that went back to BW to try it out that despite all the talk about it on the forums, wasn't significantly surprised at how much harder it was than he anticipated. Playing BW will make you pretty damn good at SC2 and transition fast. Playing SC2 will almost not help at all in achieving a remote level of skill in BW. Multitasking, as said in an earlier post, is a completely different story, since the way multitasking is utilized in the games are completely different. Good BW multitasking would help a lot in SC2 (and vice versa), but it's just so different that I think it will take a ton of time to adapt, far more than people are giving it credit for. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:08 StorkHwaiting wrote: ZvZ is an incredibly skill based mu. At every point in the game, ZvZ is tense, exciting, and volatile. Banes are not just right click and watch shit blow up. Tons and tons of micro. There are a TON of different openings that can be used. A ton of transitions into mid-game. In mid-game there is fast infestor tech for defense/harass, muta tech for map control, roach busts. In late game shit goes absolutely bonkers with roach/hydra/infestor wars. I don't get how anyone can say it is a boring or luck-based matchup. Either total chobos or just clueless never played it before type kids. Well if i didnt play zerg i would see a possibilty of going with the crowd and slating it bad MU because terran has affinity to protoss gameplay and viceversa (similar economy style). But because i play zerg and started to embrace the MU i started to notice things that are unique in SC2 just like there are certain plays in PvP or TvT that are not seen in non mirror. And ZvZ is not BW ZvZ, BW ZvZ sadly is PvP of SC2 due to warpgate and the fact that larger maps dont really mandate going full eco openings while allowing for ZvZ to statistically improve (more games started as 15 hatch or 14p because of longer travel distance). edit nvm | ||
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