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France9034 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:50 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:40 Ragnarork wrote:
"The elephant in the room", or in other words "how to tear down in 2 pieces what could have been a great family otherwise".
Oh, well... nvm, seems thrashing each other's game seems to be the trend...
Seriously, I don't care that BW pros over-dominate the scene or not (currently, they aren't at all...), i'll look forward a great community, great players and great matches...
I really don't like this article. I mean, wth, according to its logic, ForGG should've been quite dominating in SC2 since he's won an MSL and no other SC2 players from BW did even reached Ro32 (or Ro16) in BW tournaments... And yet, he's never got past Code S Ro32... Does that mean that it's impossible for BW pros to dominate ? No. But come on, they won't automatically dominate either... Just because ForGG ended up not crushing is in no way in contrast with the article. Sure, it does not further the elephant in any way, but in the article it was mentioned that they have the potential to dominate. Potential. Not automatic domination.
I have a problem with this then because talking about potential is quite ultra-safe. If it comes true "Ha I said it", and if it's proven wrong "Meh, they didn't transform that potential". Kinda win-win w/e is being said...
But then I admit that ForGG isn't really the best example (according to the short sum-up above, I knew part of this, but I learned things also ^_^).
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HAHA ENDING of GSL PLAYERS ERA .......
Now is KESPA ERA
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The thing I don't get about this whole argument over the elephant article is that it was written at a time when SC2 was significantly less evolved than it is now. Go back and watch games from that time and you will find that they are pretty atrocious in quality. Had the Kespa players entered then I believe they would have had a much easier time achieving success than they do now. Now however SC2 has actually gotten to a point where there are some pretty amazing high quality games. The competition has gotten better, the quality of games have gotten better, the players have gotten better, the metagame has gotten better, etc.
Personally I am convinced that the Kespa players will be among the top players in a few months once they finally switch, but they won't completely dominate like they once would have because all the SC2 players have gotten so, so much better.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
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On August 10 2012 22:55 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:45 Squeegy wrote:On August 10 2012 22:36 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 22:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 22:27 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:53 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:43 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Clafou wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Uni1987 wrote:
elephant Don't bring this crap here. Roro slapped Leenock with a Elephant Trunk of massive force. And all the other Kespa players are doing well, too... Oh, wait -.-; This tournament has already proven the elephant in the room article wrong. Drop this bullshit and focus on the games. I did focus on the game and what I saw was Roro using his trunk and slapping players left and right. Maybe he will loose at one point but still damn he's a sexy elephant. Tuut-tuut! That article suggested that BW players would dominate SC2 players en masse within months of switching. Since that hasn't happened, the "elephant in the room" is dead. We don't need all this elephant bullshit in every SC2 thread. EDIT: "More importantly, we are perfectly fine with Kespa pros needing as much as a year to dominate. As long as they dominate, they have proven their superiority. And they will." Wrong, after a year they will be no better than people like DJRecco bursting onto the scene  The last OSL just ended last week. And you talk about the elephant being dead? These guys are still playing 2 games. Roro was playing SC1 in proleague just this week. The article said within months of starting to play SC2. They've had that time. The article was wrong, the elephant is dead, shut the fuck up about it. EDIT: And don't mistake this as malice towards those players or BW. I hope they do change over and show us some good games. My point is that they haven't done what that article said they would (completely roflstomp everyone within months of switching) and so everyone should stop mentioning fucking elephants. But the elephant in the room was never that they would stomp within months. The elephant was that they are better than your MCs and Nesteas. The elephant is only defeated if your MCs and Nesteas remain competetive. Why is such a simple argument constantly misunderstood? I don't understand. Of course in the article it was stated that they could (at the time) come and potentially dominate within few months. But that was not the elephant. The elephant was that MCs and Nesteas are inferior. Wrong. The article suggested that the competition in SC2 was a farce because the MCs and Nesteas would get stomped by BW players within months of them switching. Their inferiority in BW was simply being used as evidence that this was the case. As it turns out, the BW pros haven't instantly roflstomped everyone after switching over, nor have they shown results vs. each other in SC2 that are relative to their BW skill levels (despite the BW players having had similar amounts of time with SC2). Both of these show that the article was bullshit. Now shut the fuck up about it and enjoy the games without bringing all this BW elitism into SC2 LR threads: It's worse than French people in LR threads involving Stephano, seriously -.-;
FYI Kespa players are playing SC2 and BW now because of stupid PL format(Hybrid) whereas GOM players are only playing SC2.
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On August 10 2012 22:51 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:48 DeCoder wrote:
To me the games with Leenock and RorO were about Leenock making mistakes and coming back through superior understanding of the game. Sadly for him he got behind too often and eventually lost. Leenock lost the match more so than RorO won it. Perhaps that speaks more about the level of GSL players if they always lose their games rather than their opponent winning.
Because the matches were clearly the best Leenock has ever played. Sigh, can you stop trying to say that all GSL players are bad.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
The roro in the room strikes again.
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On August 10 2012 22:55 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:45 Squeegy wrote:On August 10 2012 22:36 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 22:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 22:27 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:53 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:43 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Clafou wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Uni1987 wrote:
elephant Don't bring this crap here. Roro slapped Leenock with a Elephant Trunk of massive force. And all the other Kespa players are doing well, too... Oh, wait -.-; This tournament has already proven the elephant in the room article wrong. Drop this bullshit and focus on the games. I did focus on the game and what I saw was Roro using his trunk and slapping players left and right. Maybe he will loose at one point but still damn he's a sexy elephant. Tuut-tuut! That article suggested that BW players would dominate SC2 players en masse within months of switching. Since that hasn't happened, the "elephant in the room" is dead. We don't need all this elephant bullshit in every SC2 thread. EDIT: "More importantly, we are perfectly fine with Kespa pros needing as much as a year to dominate. As long as they dominate, they have proven their superiority. And they will." Wrong, after a year they will be no better than people like DJRecco bursting onto the scene The last OSL just ended last week. And you talk about the elephant being dead? These guys are still playing 2 games. Roro was playing SC1 in proleague just this week. The article said within months of starting to play SC2. They've had that time. The article was wrong, the elephant is dead, shut the fuck up about it. EDIT: And don't mistake this as malice towards those players or BW. I hope they do change over and show us some good games. My point is that they haven't done what that article said they would (completely roflstomp everyone within months of switching) and so everyone should stop mentioning fucking elephants. But the elephant in the room was never that they would stomp within months. The elephant was that they are better than your MCs and Nesteas. The elephant is only defeated if your MCs and Nesteas remain competetive. Why is such a simple argument constantly misunderstood? I don't understand. Of course in the article it was stated that they could (at the time) come and potentially dominate within few months. But that was not the elephant. The elephant was that MCs and Nesteas are inferior. Wrong. The article suggested that the competition in SC2 was a farce because the MCs and Nesteas would get stomped by BW players within months of them switching. Their inferiority in BW was simply being used as evidence that this was the case. As it turns out, the BW pros haven't instantly roflstomped everyone after switching over, nor have they shown results vs. each other in SC2 that are relative to their BW skill levels (despite the BW players having had similar amounts of time with SC2). Both of these show that the article was bullshit. Now shut the fuck up about it and enjoy the games without bringing all this BW elitism into SC2 LR threads: It's worse than French people in LR threads involving Stephano, seriously -.-;
But they havn't swapped games yet, they just playing few games of SC2 and owning nubs left and right, elephants rule my dear sir. Lucky we have Zotac Cup and other SC2 tournaments so all players can keep playing.
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On August 10 2012 22:55 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:50 Squeegy wrote:On August 10 2012 22:40 Ragnarork wrote:
"The elephant in the room", or in other words "how to tear down in 2 pieces what could have been a great family otherwise".
Oh, well... nvm, seems thrashing each other's game seems to be the trend...
Seriously, I don't care that BW pros over-dominate the scene or not (currently, they aren't at all...), i'll look forward a great community, great players and great matches...
I really don't like this article. I mean, wth, according to its logic, ForGG should've been quite dominating in SC2 since he's won an MSL and no other SC2 players from BW did even reached Ro32 (or Ro16) in BW tournaments... And yet, he's never got past Code S Ro32... Does that mean that it's impossible for BW pros to dominate ? No. But come on, they won't automatically dominate either... Just because ForGG ended up not crushing is in no way in contrast with the article. Sure, it does not further the elephant in any way, but in the article it was mentioned that they have the potential to dominate. Potential. Not automatic domination. I have a problem with this then because talking about potential is quite ultra-safe. If it comes true "Ha I said it", and if it's proven wrong "Meh, they didn't transform that potential". Kinda win-win w/e is being said... But then I admit that ForGG isn't really the best example (according to the short sum-up above, I knew part of this, but I learned things also ^_^).
Yeah, I don't think there's any reason to play with semantics. As a BW fan, I'm willing to put my foot down and claim the best of BW scene will dominate the top 20 players list of SC2 by end of year. If it doesn't happen, I'll admit the elephant is dead. I think that's a fair debate. Let's say 65% of the top 20 players list is Kespa players considered a win?
And glad the ForGG summary was informative :D
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:59 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:55 Ragnarork wrote:On August 10 2012 22:50 Squeegy wrote:On August 10 2012 22:40 Ragnarork wrote:
"The elephant in the room", or in other words "how to tear down in 2 pieces what could have been a great family otherwise".
Oh, well... nvm, seems thrashing each other's game seems to be the trend...
Seriously, I don't care that BW pros over-dominate the scene or not (currently, they aren't at all...), i'll look forward a great community, great players and great matches...
I really don't like this article. I mean, wth, according to its logic, ForGG should've been quite dominating in SC2 since he's won an MSL and no other SC2 players from BW did even reached Ro32 (or Ro16) in BW tournaments... And yet, he's never got past Code S Ro32... Does that mean that it's impossible for BW pros to dominate ? No. But come on, they won't automatically dominate either... Just because ForGG ended up not crushing is in no way in contrast with the article. Sure, it does not further the elephant in any way, but in the article it was mentioned that they have the potential to dominate. Potential. Not automatic domination. I have a problem with this then because talking about potential is quite ultra-safe. If it comes true "Ha I said it", and if it's proven wrong "Meh, they didn't transform that potential". Kinda win-win w/e is being said... But then I admit that ForGG isn't really the best example (according to the short sum-up above, I knew part of this, but I learned things also ^_^). Yeah, I don't think there's any reason to play with semantics. As a BW fan, I'm willing to put my foot down and claim the best of BW scene will dominate the top 20 players list of SC2 by end of year. If it doesn't happen, I'll admit the elephant is dead. I think that's a fair debate. Let's say 65% of the top 20 players list is Kespa players considered a win? And glad the ForGG summary was informative :D
yeah okay :D i'll take that wager!
willing to bet my pride that the "top 20" sc2 pros will be >=65% composed of non-kespa players (as in players who 'recently' switched under kespa). and also that the "top 3" sc2 pros will be all non-kespa players too
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On August 10 2012 22:55 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:50 Squeegy wrote:On August 10 2012 22:40 Ragnarork wrote:
"The elephant in the room", or in other words "how to tear down in 2 pieces what could have been a great family otherwise".
Oh, well... nvm, seems thrashing each other's game seems to be the trend...
Seriously, I don't care that BW pros over-dominate the scene or not (currently, they aren't at all...), i'll look forward a great community, great players and great matches...
I really don't like this article. I mean, wth, according to its logic, ForGG should've been quite dominating in SC2 since he's won an MSL and no other SC2 players from BW did even reached Ro32 (or Ro16) in BW tournaments... And yet, he's never got past Code S Ro32... Does that mean that it's impossible for BW pros to dominate ? No. But come on, they won't automatically dominate either... Just because ForGG ended up not crushing is in no way in contrast with the article. Sure, it does not further the elephant in any way, but in the article it was mentioned that they have the potential to dominate. Potential. Not automatic domination. I have a problem with this then because talking about potential is quite ultra-safe. If it comes true "Ha I said it", and if it's proven wrong "Meh, they didn't transform that potential". Kinda win-win w/e is being said... But then I admit that ForGG isn't really the best example (according to the short sum-up above, I knew part of this, but I learned things also ^_^).
and who the hell cares if it's a win-win situation? people are supposed to say things that are either 100% wrong or right?
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On August 10 2012 22:55 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:45 Squeegy wrote:On August 10 2012 22:36 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 22:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 22:27 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:53 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:43 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Clafou wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Uni1987 wrote:
elephant Don't bring this crap here. Roro slapped Leenock with a Elephant Trunk of massive force. And all the other Kespa players are doing well, too... Oh, wait -.-; This tournament has already proven the elephant in the room article wrong. Drop this bullshit and focus on the games. I did focus on the game and what I saw was Roro using his trunk and slapping players left and right. Maybe he will loose at one point but still damn he's a sexy elephant. Tuut-tuut! That article suggested that BW players would dominate SC2 players en masse within months of switching. Since that hasn't happened, the "elephant in the room" is dead. We don't need all this elephant bullshit in every SC2 thread. EDIT: "More importantly, we are perfectly fine with Kespa pros needing as much as a year to dominate. As long as they dominate, they have proven their superiority. And they will." Wrong, after a year they will be no better than people like DJRecco bursting onto the scene The last OSL just ended last week. And you talk about the elephant being dead? These guys are still playing 2 games. Roro was playing SC1 in proleague just this week. The article said within months of starting to play SC2. They've had that time. The article was wrong, the elephant is dead, shut the fuck up about it. EDIT: And don't mistake this as malice towards those players or BW. I hope they do change over and show us some good games. My point is that they haven't done what that article said they would (completely roflstomp everyone within months of switching) and so everyone should stop mentioning fucking elephants. But the elephant in the room was never that they would stomp within months. The elephant was that they are better than your MCs and Nesteas. The elephant is only defeated if your MCs and Nesteas remain competetive. Why is such a simple argument constantly misunderstood? I don't understand. Of course in the article it was stated that they could (at the time) come and potentially dominate within few months. But that was not the elephant. The elephant was that MCs and Nesteas are inferior. Wrong. The article suggested that the competition in SC2 was a farce because the MCs and Nesteas would get stomped by BW players within months of them switching. Their inferiority in BW was simply being used as evidence that this was the case. As it turns out, the BW pros haven't instantly roflstomped everyone after switching over, nor have they shown results vs. each other in SC2 that are relative to their BW skill levels (despite the BW players having had similar amounts of time with SC2). Both of these show that the article was bullshit. Now shut the fuck up about it and enjoy the games without bringing all this BW elitism into SC2 LR threads: It's worse than French people in LR threads involving Stephano, seriously -.-;
Actually, you're wrong.
The point the article tried to make is that Flash is simply better than MC, and since we have MC being the king, the competition is, well, what it is. At the time the level of play was so weak that people thought it would take only a few months to catch up. But this is not the elephant. The three months is merely something to emphasize the elephant, which is, that MC is inferior.
Moreover, the assumption in the article was that it would be a full switch right at that time. Not a partial switch much later. If the elephant is what you say it is, then the truth value of it cannot even be checked. I don't really mind. All I think is that Kespa pros are more talented and have the better work ethic. Kind of like Wayne Gretzky was more talented than his peers along with working harder. And that is why they will dominate, and as long as they do, I'm satisfied.
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On August 10 2012 22:59 Simsallabin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:55 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 22:45 Squeegy wrote:On August 10 2012 22:36 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 22:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 10 2012 22:27 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:53 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:43 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Clafou wrote:
[quote]
Don't bring this crap here. Roro slapped Leenock with a Elephant Trunk of massive force. And all the other Kespa players are doing well, too... Oh, wait -.-; This tournament has already proven the elephant in the room article wrong. Drop this bullshit and focus on the games. I did focus on the game and what I saw was Roro using his trunk and slapping players left and right. Maybe he will loose at one point but still damn he's a sexy elephant. Tuut-tuut! That article suggested that BW players would dominate SC2 players en masse within months of switching. Since that hasn't happened, the "elephant in the room" is dead. We don't need all this elephant bullshit in every SC2 thread. EDIT: "More importantly, we are perfectly fine with Kespa pros needing as much as a year to dominate. As long as they dominate, they have proven their superiority. And they will." Wrong, after a year they will be no better than people like DJRecco bursting onto the scene The last OSL just ended last week. And you talk about the elephant being dead? These guys are still playing 2 games. Roro was playing SC1 in proleague just this week. The article said within months of starting to play SC2. They've had that time. The article was wrong, the elephant is dead, shut the fuck up about it. EDIT: And don't mistake this as malice towards those players or BW. I hope they do change over and show us some good games. My point is that they haven't done what that article said they would (completely roflstomp everyone within months of switching) and so everyone should stop mentioning fucking elephants. But the elephant in the room was never that they would stomp within months. The elephant was that they are better than your MCs and Nesteas. The elephant is only defeated if your MCs and Nesteas remain competetive. Why is such a simple argument constantly misunderstood? I don't understand. Of course in the article it was stated that they could (at the time) come and potentially dominate within few months. But that was not the elephant. The elephant was that MCs and Nesteas are inferior. Wrong. The article suggested that the competition in SC2 was a farce because the MCs and Nesteas would get stomped by BW players within months of them switching. Their inferiority in BW was simply being used as evidence that this was the case. As it turns out, the BW pros haven't instantly roflstomped everyone after switching over, nor have they shown results vs. each other in SC2 that are relative to their BW skill levels (despite the BW players having had similar amounts of time with SC2). Both of these show that the article was bullshit. Now shut the fuck up about it and enjoy the games without bringing all this BW elitism into SC2 LR threads: It's worse than French people in LR threads involving Stephano, seriously -.-; But they havn't swapped games yet, they just playing few games of SC2 and owning nubs left and right, elephants rule my dear sir. Lucky we have Zotac Cup and other SC2 tournaments so all players can keep playing.
They actually aren't, they just won a few matches here and there. The problem I have with the elephant theory right now is that the way kespa and GOM planned the transition makes it so the impact is softened throughout a long period of time, which makes it so the scenes mix and influence each other. Basically, when kespa players actually do well and the dust settles (most likely in a 50:50 distribution) it will be completely impossible to determine whether it is related at all with their BW background. And even then we'll have elephantists preaching their creed, it's looking bleak for LR threads, which is sad considering it could be a fun and healthy rivalry...
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France12906 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:On August 10 2012 21:43 Simsallabin wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Clafou wrote:On August 10 2012 21:41 Uni1987 wrote:
elephant Don't bring this crap here. Roro slapped Leenock with a Elephant Trunk of massive force. And all the other Kespa players are doing well, too... Oh, wait -.-; This tournament has already proven the elephant in the room article wrong. Drop this bullshit and focus on the games. Lol dude. That article didn't include practicing two games at once lol and you have no right to speak on all the other Kespa players because you have no idea how they are doing. The fact that even one Kespa player has even made it this far while playing two games at once in a span of 3 months is scary enough for the current SC2 players. Like I have said before, there was a reason why these players were in Kespa at the end of Brood War and a reason why players like Leenock and the current SC2 pros didn't make it in and those reasons are starting to show. Even some of the worst the worst ex 2010 and below Kespa players are at the top of SC2 (MC,MVP, and Nestea) so it is only natural that they will eventually surpass them.
Lol like they are playing starcraft 2 only part time...
They are dedicating almost their entire practice-time to starcraft 2 as it has been said in their different interviews. Plus I'm pretty sure that the quality of the last BW matches was kinda bad compared to before, because they aren't practicing it enough.
3 months? Same, they have been practicing the game before that. It's a "ForGG" style 3 months, when you are officially training etc, but I'm sure they have been laddering for longer than that.
The fact that one kespa player have made it this far is not really scary at all, almost every team member could beat 2 GSL players if there were enough team members sent like there were in WCS.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
specific quote:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
take that as you will.
i'm going to take dominate = top 5 in race
the problem lies in "from the day that they switch"
there is no switch, it's just gradual. so hard to say really; and people can interpret this as they will as well. for my own sake, i'll take "the day they switch" as the finals of SPL.
so my latency period is the end of this year (which will be a few months after SPL ends, plus the few months they played SC2 part-time). if they're not dominating (top 5 players in race) then i'm going to think the statement wrong.
otherwise, i reserve my judgement for now.
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On August 10 2012 22:58 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:51 Squeegy wrote:On August 10 2012 22:48 DeCoder wrote:
To me the games with Leenock and RorO were about Leenock making mistakes and coming back through superior understanding of the game. Sadly for him he got behind too often and eventually lost. Leenock lost the match more so than RorO won it. Perhaps that speaks more about the level of GSL players if they always lose their games rather than their opponent winning. Because the matches were clearly the best Leenock has ever played. Sigh, can you stop trying to say that all GSL players are bad.
I'm actually not saying they are bad. I just think that if everytime a GSL player loses, he plays bad, then maybe they were never actually that good.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On August 10 2012 23:16 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:58 DrPandaPhD wrote:On August 10 2012 22:51 Squeegy wrote:On August 10 2012 22:48 DeCoder wrote:
To me the games with Leenock and RorO were about Leenock making mistakes and coming back through superior understanding of the game. Sadly for him he got behind too often and eventually lost. Leenock lost the match more so than RorO won it. Perhaps that speaks more about the level of GSL players if they always lose their games rather than their opponent winning. Because the matches were clearly the best Leenock has ever played. Sigh, can you stop trying to say that all GSL players are bad. I'm actually not saying they are bad. I just think that if everytime a GSL player loses, he plays bad, then maybe they were never actually that good.
sc2 hasn't been around for thatt long yet, players are quite a while off figuring out the game as much as BW was, so mistakes will be around a lot still
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EPT
