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a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
August 06 2012 17:17 GMT
#2321
I'd be willing to put my money on a late 2012 championship for The Dong.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
August 06 2012 17:17 GMT
#2322
On August 07 2012 02:00 Xiphos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2012 01:53 vesicular wrote:
On August 07 2012 01:13 Squeegy wrote:Of course, all this is redundant because I don't think Jaedong is currently the better player. Does he have the potential to be the better player? Yes. Way better.


This is about the only thing that matters. Does anyone think that JD will never be Code S or take home titles in SC2? The entire conversation of this needing to happen overnight is silly and goes for any Kespa player. The question is how long it will take and who they will displace at Code S/A level.

The extremes on both sides are fighting over nothing. No Kespa player is good enough yet, but there will be Kespa players that take over and dominate in SC2 eventually. Both of these things are fairly certain.

NONE of the TBLS will win a GSL title mark my words.


Isn't Flash still pretty young?
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-06 17:27:55
August 06 2012 17:25 GMT
#2323
On August 07 2012 02:17 S_SienZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2012 02:00 Xiphos wrote:
On August 07 2012 01:53 vesicular wrote:
On August 07 2012 01:13 Squeegy wrote:Of course, all this is redundant because I don't think Jaedong is currently the better player. Does he have the potential to be the better player? Yes. Way better.


This is about the only thing that matters. Does anyone think that JD will never be Code S or take home titles in SC2? The entire conversation of this needing to happen overnight is silly and goes for any Kespa player. The question is how long it will take and who they will displace at Code S/A level.

The extremes on both sides are fighting over nothing. No Kespa player is good enough yet, but there will be Kespa players that take over and dominate in SC2 eventually. Both of these things are fairly certain.

NONE of the TBLS will win a GSL title mark my words.


Isn't Flash still pretty young?


But he sucks at SCtwo. Everytime he plays the game, he just looks plain depressed.

And for the rest of them, Bisu, Stork, and JD all have reached their age of military services. And since ACE is no longer accepting any new players and is disbanding, it will be an miracle for them to be absent for two whole years while retaining their skills.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
kaokentake
Profile Joined July 2012
383 Posts
August 06 2012 17:43 GMT
#2324
jaedongs only "mistakes" in the first game is he derped bane/ling into tanks in the midgame and lost

jaedongs other mistakes later in the game like maybe not dealing with drops properly is a RESULT of his early derping into tanks which let alive have more than he should have had. if the terrans got way more crap than he should have and pwning you allover the map of course it "looks like" jaedongs making mistakes. no zerg would look otherwise but its a result of their earlier mistakes.

banelings SUCK against even 1 tank (however fungal+ a few banes pwns). their ONLY purpose is surviving early pressure, past themidgame infestors are always a better unit to spend money on. only time you should be derping banes into tanks in the midgame is if your using leftover banelings from the earlygame you were forced to build

jaedong had 3 fast saturated bases, 12 minute hive with tons of queens and insane creepspread, zero damage incurred early. he should have won but he traded thousands of resources of banelings for near nothing. once he learns this small lesson he should destroy alive in that first game in the same scenario (as no terrans really have an answer to stephano style fungal abuse yet if the zerg gets 3fast bases like that he should never lose. stephano only loses when the terran stops that fast 3base 12minute hive uninterrupted macro for zerg scenario from happening)

simply put, infestors are just better than banelings. 1 infestor costs 100/150 and it can get off a few fungals in its first 2 minutes of life. swarm mass lings into the tanks/bio during the 10-15 minute midgame and a couple fungals do the job of 15 banelings. 15 banelings cost 750/375. infestors are like 4x more cost efficient. then get broodlords or ultras with that 12 minute hive and its prisonrape for alive after the 15 minute midgame is over. i expect jaedong to crush code s terrans once he figures out that last piece of the stephano puzzle (abuse fungal all game long) which allows stephano to rape everyone with zerg but he would be a low tier player if he played terran or toss because he wouldnt be able to abuse fungal as toss or terran (ok im joking about this part. just annoys me how zerg is designed to rely so much on fungal. every stephano game is the fungal diarys. how would he perform without it. but i guess every top zerg is like that now and needs to be like that because zerg has to be by its very design. you live and die by the fungal)

game 2 means nothing really... jaedong had a horrible reaction to a 2rax then just lost after that... just means he just doesnt know the right way to react which a quick conversation with any top zerg could fix for the dong... he played standard very well in game1 for the first 12 minutes of opening but derped ling/banes after that in the midgame
babylon
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
8765 Posts
August 06 2012 17:43 GMT
#2325
Nice to see things going exactly as I predicted for once, lol.
Lazzi
Profile Joined June 2011
Switzerland1923 Posts
August 06 2012 17:45 GMT
#2326
First games are not free on gom??' WTF?
It's good to be back
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
August 06 2012 17:46 GMT
#2327
There will be free vods in 7 days.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
vesicular
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1310 Posts
August 06 2012 17:51 GMT
#2328
On August 07 2012 02:25 Xiphos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2012 02:17 S_SienZ wrote:
On August 07 2012 02:00 Xiphos wrote:
On August 07 2012 01:53 vesicular wrote:
On August 07 2012 01:13 Squeegy wrote:Of course, all this is redundant because I don't think Jaedong is currently the better player. Does he have the potential to be the better player? Yes. Way better.


This is about the only thing that matters. Does anyone think that JD will never be Code S or take home titles in SC2? The entire conversation of this needing to happen overnight is silly and goes for any Kespa player. The question is how long it will take and who they will displace at Code S/A level.

The extremes on both sides are fighting over nothing. No Kespa player is good enough yet, but there will be Kespa players that take over and dominate in SC2 eventually. Both of these things are fairly certain.

NONE of the TBLS will win a GSL title mark my words.


Isn't Flash still pretty young?


But he sucks at SCtwo. Everytime he plays the game, he just looks plain depressed.

And for the rest of them, Bisu, Stork, and JD all have reached their age of military services. And since ACE is no longer accepting any new players and is disbanding, it will be an miracle for them to be absent for two whole years while retaining their skills.


Many of the current SC2 pros are in the 21-22 age rage just like JD et al. Honestly, I'm really curious what some of the younger Kespa players can do more than anything, especially someone like BaBy who is still really young but already has a lot of experience on Kespa teams.
STX Fighting!
Proseat
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Germany5113 Posts
August 06 2012 18:02 GMT
#2329
JaeDong and By.Sun (a.k.a. Rain) are not out yet by the way. There is a losers bracket.

The Rise and Fall of SlayerS -- a timeline: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=378097
Dranak
Profile Joined July 2011
United States464 Posts
August 06 2012 18:10 GMT
#2330
On August 07 2012 02:43 kaokentake wrote:
jaedongs only "mistakes" in the first game is he derped bane/ling into tanks in the midgame and lost

jaedongs other mistakes later in the game like maybe not dealing with drops properly is a RESULT of his early derping into tanks which let alive have more than he should have had. if the terrans got way more crap than he should have and pwning you allover the map of course it "looks like" jaedongs making mistakes. no zerg would look otherwise but its a result of their earlier mistakes.

banelings SUCK against even 1 tank (however fungal+ a few banes pwns). their ONLY purpose is surviving early pressure, past themidgame infestors are always a better unit to spend money on. only time you should be derping banes into tanks in the midgame is if your using leftover banelings from the earlygame you were forced to build

jaedong had 3 fast saturated bases, 12 minute hive with tons of queens and insane creepspread, zero damage incurred early. he should have won but he traded thousands of resources of banelings for near nothing. once he learns this small lesson he should destroy alive in that first game in the same scenario (as no terrans really have an answer to stephano style fungal abuse yet if the zerg gets 3fast bases like that he should never lose. stephano only loses when the terran stops that fast 3base 12minute hive uninterrupted macro for zerg scenario from happening)

simply put, infestors are just better than banelings. 1 infestor costs 100/150 and it can get off a few fungals in its first 2 minutes of life. swarm mass lings into the tanks/bio during the 10-15 minute midgame and a couple fungals do the job of 15 banelings. 15 banelings cost 750/375. infestors are like 4x more cost efficient. then get broodlords or ultras with that 12 minute hive and its prisonrape for alive after the 15 minute midgame is over. i expect jaedong to crush code s terrans once he figures out that last piece of the stephano puzzle (abuse fungal all game long) which allows stephano to rape everyone with zerg but he would be a low tier player if he played terran or toss because he wouldnt be able to abuse fungal as toss or terran (ok im joking about this part. just annoys me how zerg is designed to rely so much on fungal. every stephano game is the fungal diarys. how would he perform without it. but i guess every top zerg is like that now and needs to be like that because zerg has to be by its very design. you live and die by the fungal)

game 2 means nothing really... jaedong had a horrible reaction to a 2rax then just lost after that... just means he just doesnt know the right way to react which a quick conversation with any top zerg could fix for the dong... he played standard very well in game1 for the first 12 minutes of opening but derped ling/banes after that in the midgame


That was his largest mistake, but hardly his only one. He also suicided about 1/3 the number of banes into a PF that he would have needed to kill it, and left his 4ish broodlords out by themselves completely unsupported later. Then there are the more minor ones like his building placement at the natural delaying his response a drop there. I agree that he looked pretty solid through the opening minutes, but seemed to fall apart a bit once he had to start engaging and making decisions/reacting. That said, he might have won vs a Code B opponent or even a weaker Code A player.
xN.07)MaK
Profile Joined January 2006
Spain1159 Posts
August 06 2012 18:30 GMT
#2331
On August 07 2012 02:43 kaokentake wrote:
jaedongs only "mistakes" in the first game is he derped bane/ling into tanks in the midgame and lost

jaedongs other mistakes later in the game like maybe not dealing with drops properly is a RESULT of his early derping into tanks which let alive have more than he should have had. if the terrans got way more crap than he should have and pwning you allover the map of course it "looks like" jaedongs making mistakes. no zerg would look otherwise but its a result of their earlier mistakes.

banelings SUCK against even 1 tank (however fungal+ a few banes pwns). their ONLY purpose is surviving early pressure, past themidgame infestors are always a better unit to spend money on. only time you should be derping banes into tanks in the midgame is if your using leftover banelings from the earlygame you were forced to build

jaedong had 3 fast saturated bases, 12 minute hive with tons of queens and insane creepspread, zero damage incurred early. he should have won but he traded thousands of resources of banelings for near nothing. once he learns this small lesson he should destroy alive in that first game in the same scenario (as no terrans really have an answer to stephano style fungal abuse yet if the zerg gets 3fast bases like that he should never lose. stephano only loses when the terran stops that fast 3base 12minute hive uninterrupted macro for zerg scenario from happening)

simply put, infestors are just better than banelings. 1 infestor costs 100/150 and it can get off a few fungals in its first 2 minutes of life. swarm mass lings into the tanks/bio during the 10-15 minute midgame and a couple fungals do the job of 15 banelings. 15 banelings cost 750/375. infestors are like 4x more cost efficient. then get broodlords or ultras with that 12 minute hive and its prisonrape for alive after the 15 minute midgame is over. i expect jaedong to crush code s terrans once he figures out that last piece of the stephano puzzle (abuse fungal all game long) which allows stephano to rape everyone with zerg but he would be a low tier player if he played terran or toss because he wouldnt be able to abuse fungal as toss or terran (ok im joking about this part. just annoys me how zerg is designed to rely so much on fungal. every stephano game is the fungal diarys. how would he perform without it. but i guess every top zerg is like that now and needs to be like that because zerg has to be by its very design. you live and die by the fungal)

game 2 means nothing really... jaedong had a horrible reaction to a 2rax then just lost after that... just means he just doesnt know the right way to react which a quick conversation with any top zerg could fix for the dong... he played standard very well in game1 for the first 12 minutes of opening but derped ling/banes after that in the midgame


Another 'elephanter'. So he has to be told a couple of things, and he will be able to destroy GSL from tomorrow onwards. Yeah, right.
El micro es el último recurso que les queda a los que no producen lo suficiente
Random_Guy09
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada1010 Posts
August 06 2012 18:31 GMT
#2332
On August 07 2012 01:16 jellyjello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2012 00:49 Markwerf wrote:
On August 07 2012 00:36 jellyjello wrote:
On August 07 2012 00:21 eden-san wrote:
On August 06 2012 23:49 Probe1 wrote:
You've never seen that anywhere else.. like during late 2010 and the first half of 2011 when Nestea popularized expand first builds by holding off 7/8 pools?

I'm a big fan of Nestea, but the way JD micro'ed it seemed even a step higher to me.
Not saying JD is better, far from it, but he has all the foundations imho :-)


JD already is displaying better SC2 mechanics than some of the GSL zergs. His first game was really good. Many GSL zergs would have folded way way earlier in the game for missing the larva inject timing or not defending the multi drops efficiently (JD splited his army in three ways to defend two drops while keeping the center watch tower). I was actually surprised that he held onto his fourth as long as he did. If he could have just baited aLive to attack into his defense, he could have won that game.


But in the same game he also missed lots of drops, failed to cancel hatches on time etc etc. First game was alright but also hard to judge because it was so passive for a long time (and when it did get later on JD kind of fell apart), second game was just abysmal.
Mechanics looked fine but nothing spectacular either, still tactically he needs quite a bit of improvement.


Not sure where he missed drops until the very end. He defended early drops very well considering he wasn't aware of drops coming his way. There are some GSL zergs that would fold competely if two medival full of marines with stim safely lands in your main without you catching them first while your entire army is out in the middle of map . JD did very well to only lose his pool.

Antiga is considered a T favored map in TvZ because T can deny the 8th gas from zerg by sieging the middle. This is the #1 thing for Korean zergs when playing T in this map. Once you know that, you'd get a better grasp of why and how JD was playing in his first game. He fought very hard to not lose the center while defending multi drops at the same time. He even managed to hold on to his fourth base until he got to the Hive. All this while not missing a single larva inject (this is important because without constant larva inject, you cant army trade vs T efficiently).


Lol you sir must be delusional or dont watch many TvZ's in GSL. Those guys pretty much fight for their lives until they're down to drones if they have to. And there is really no need to state anything simple as larva injects cause its a pointless thing to bring up (And zergs generally trade very well because of the economy they're able to get making only late game comps not cost effective) as is the favored race on a map. A MU winrate on a map means absolutely nothing. If you are the better player you can use your skill and knowledge to win on any map no matter how favored it is so its no excuse.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
August 06 2012 19:13 GMT
#2333
On August 07 2012 03:02 Proseat wrote:
JaeDong and By.Sun (a.k.a. Rain) are not out yet by the way. There is a losers bracket.



Oh no shit? Cool love watching jaedong play
When I think of something else, something will go here
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
August 06 2012 20:12 GMT
#2334
Well, looks like the hybrid league is working out for the BW pros. Gives them the excuse to say they haven't 'fully' switch. There is no way their practice is a 50/50 split at this point. I would be surprise if it is more than 10% BW. All the individual leagues are now sc2 (OSL, WCS, WCG) and you can win PL by just winning SC2 matches since ace is sc2.
BoZiffer
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1841 Posts
August 06 2012 20:18 GMT
#2335
On August 06 2012 21:39 Markwerf wrote:
JD looked alright in the first game and downright awful in the second game.
First game was quite passive early on with JD doing well in scouting, control etc. Lategame choices were quite poor though with his broodlord handling etc. he got picked apart quite quickly there.

Second game he just got destroyed and played really poor. Scouts the 2 rax but later on still loses a ton of lings to marines (like he didn't know marines between minerals were really strong) and just had some poor control. The bust was laughably bad really and following it up with a round of lings while doing nothing was also weird. Finally the roach transition, while already going for the second melee upgrade, was just really bad.

Mechanics overall looked solid especially stuff like the creep spreading he did on antiga. Tactically it's still very bad and especially the things like stopping drops or small attacks effectively really looked poor still. Before HOTS I don't think we will be seeing any good results of JD and most Kespa players, maybe a few will be lucky/good enough to get a bit further. The metagame reset with HOTS will even the playing field i guess and maybe some kespa players will even become best.


Agree about the HOTS reset. I'm really holding any/all judgement over the BW folks until BW is perma-gone and they can play SC2 for a significant amount of time. I really just view these pre-HOTS results as televised ladder/practice games for those guys. We'll see what happens in about a year.
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
August 06 2012 20:20 GMT
#2336
On August 07 2012 00:40 jellyjello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2012 00:14 Mauldo wrote:
On August 06 2012 23:06 transcendent one wrote:
i only read the last 3-4 pages but there seem to be people who get some kind of perverted satisfaction because guys who been playing sc2 FOR A MUCH MUCH MUCH SHORTER TIME than current hot sc2 pros are not destroying those sc2 pros.

how idiotic can people be lol. the guys who cant comprehend why it happens like this should never post here ever. did anyone ever say bw pros will dominate the scene as soon as they switch? give them a few months. they are still probably practicing bw for pl...


Actually, yes. Every BW elitist, which was a lot of people, did for the past 2 years. Maybe you should do more research before you start shitting on people, or you'll look as silly as you do now.

I mean, my day wasn't made because Jaedong lost to Alive, but I smirked when I thought about that "Elephant in the Room" article and the last 2 years of "Yeah well, all you SC2 progamers/viewers better watch yourself, even the BW b-teamers are going to wreck you when they do switch."

Thought SC2 was super easy? Thought it was dumbed down? Thought Flash was a god that would kick Mr. Chae in the balls and steal his toys before tearing MC's arms off? I think everyone who had to sit through that deserves a few chuckles at the elitist's expense. Especially considering the BW elitists would regularly go into SC2 threads just to throw the shit, then bitch when some jackass SC2 fan would venture into the BW forums and troll.

It's some good old fashioned schadenfreude, and I don't think it's completely uncalled for.


I'm not a BW elitist, but FWIW coach Ryu is quoted as saying top BW players will catch up 100% in 2-3 months after the end of current proleague. So, we are looking at around November-December. He also said that most Kespa players right now are at the level of low to mid Code A.


Lol, current Kespa players are no where near low to mid Code A. The best ones, maybe... They CAN show Code A level games but nowhere near the consistency for Code A.
EuLoGy[kTw]
Profile Joined July 2012
United States82 Posts
August 06 2012 20:25 GMT
#2337
Can anyone tell my how JD played?
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
August 06 2012 20:39 GMT
#2338
On August 07 2012 02:17 a_flayer wrote:
I'd be willing to put my money on a late 2012 championship for The Dong.


How much? And this is not to disrespect JD. I think he will become a top tier SC2 player. But It is obvious the Kespa players are still behind at this time so don't think they have a chance this OSL, WCS, WCG. So you are looking at one OSL and 2 GSLs remaining in 2012. Not only will JD need to beat the GSL pros, but other Kespa pros as well and I think it is a long shot at best. Maybe he will get sent to foreign tournaments but with Kespa teams, who knows when that will start to happen. And considering Kespa players have little experience with foreign events (only WCG), it might be difficult for them to adjust at first.
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
August 06 2012 20:46 GMT
#2339
On August 07 2012 05:25 EuLoGy[kTw] wrote:
Can anyone tell my how JD played?


Game one looked good, game 2 I'd rather not say
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
mrtomjones
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada4020 Posts
August 06 2012 20:54 GMT
#2340
On August 07 2012 02:43 kaokentake wrote:
jaedongs only "mistakes" in the first game is he derped bane/ling into tanks in the midgame and lost

jaedongs other mistakes later in the game like maybe not dealing with drops properly is a RESULT of his early derping into tanks which let alive have more than he should have had. if the terrans got way more crap than he should have and pwning you allover the map of course it "looks like" jaedongs making mistakes. no zerg would look otherwise but its a result of their earlier mistakes.

banelings SUCK against even 1 tank (however fungal+ a few banes pwns). their ONLY purpose is surviving early pressure, past themidgame infestors are always a better unit to spend money on. only time you should be derping banes into tanks in the midgame is if your using leftover banelings from the earlygame you were forced to build

jaedong had 3 fast saturated bases, 12 minute hive with tons of queens and insane creepspread, zero damage incurred early. he should have won but he traded thousands of resources of banelings for near nothing. once he learns this small lesson he should destroy alive in that first game in the same scenario (as no terrans really have an answer to stephano style fungal abuse yet if the zerg gets 3fast bases like that he should never lose. stephano only loses when the terran stops that fast 3base 12minute hive uninterrupted macro for zerg scenario from happening)

simply put, infestors are just better than banelings. 1 infestor costs 100/150 and it can get off a few fungals in its first 2 minutes of life. swarm mass lings into the tanks/bio during the 10-15 minute midgame and a couple fungals do the job of 15 banelings. 15 banelings cost 750/375. infestors are like 4x more cost efficient. then get broodlords or ultras with that 12 minute hive and its prisonrape for alive after the 15 minute midgame is over. i expect jaedong to crush code s terrans once he figures out that last piece of the stephano puzzle (abuse fungal all game long) which allows stephano to rape everyone with zerg but he would be a low tier player if he played terran or toss because he wouldnt be able to abuse fungal as toss or terran (ok im joking about this part. just annoys me how zerg is designed to rely so much on fungal. every stephano game is the fungal diarys. how would he perform without it. but i guess every top zerg is like that now and needs to be like that because zerg has to be by its very design. you live and die by the fungal)

game 2 means nothing really... jaedong had a horrible reaction to a 2rax then just lost after that... just means he just doesnt know the right way to react which a quick conversation with any top zerg could fix for the dong... he played standard very well in game1 for the first 12 minutes of opening but derped ling/banes after that in the midgame

How does game 2 mean nothing? None of the top foreign zergs would have done those moves(Banes into PF for example). JD is improving but he still has a long way to go. It is completely expected and fair though due to not being able to only practice one game and having to catch up a long ways.
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