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ABear
United States161 Posts
(2)kespa players are still playing bw for proleague, so they haven't even really "switched" to sc2 yet. I'm not sure why anyone finds these results meaningful at all. Obviously the GSL players are still better, and the kespa players are going to need more time. | ||
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Thurken
961 Posts
On August 07 2012 00:40 jellyjello wrote: I'm not a BW elitist, but FWIW coach Ryu is quoted as saying top BW players will catch up 100% in 2-3 months after the end of current proleague. So, we are looking at around November-December. He also said that most Kespa players right now are at the level of low to mid Code A. The difference between catching up more than six months after playing the game (even if it is 75% for the first 3 months) and dominating after a few months is huge. It is maybe the same difference between unfortunately-featured-bw-fanboy-thread and well thought post... | ||
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Easy_Messi
6 Posts
On August 07 2012 00:18 bittman wrote: I guess you'll be looking for the season 2 for 2012 in GSL perhaps? That's the season where he made his claim to fame with wins over Polt, ForGG, TheSTC and MKP. Was basically a who's-who of terran for the season until he fell to MVP. It looks like the best PvT around (not that I've seen today's games). Unfortunately Parting's PvZ looks to be a weakness, but not of the level where's he's irrelevant if we're talking top x Protoss players. x comes down to opinion of course. Some may make him top 3, others top 10. Imo he's just outside a top 3 with Squirtle, Seed and MC at the top. It's then probably debatable between Genius, Puzzle and Parting for the next 3. Creator, Hero, Naniwa beyond that. San I have no idea. He's either one of the best protoss players around or so-so. I can't read his power level =/ Thx a lot. Really helpful! | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On August 06 2012 22:22 Grumbels wrote: The funny thing is I actually followed several courses on formal logic. I guess I didn't learn anything. In any case, I think Flash and Jaedong will be very strong over time, it just doesn't validate the elephant theory which requires that every single KeSPA A-teamer would completely crush all the competition, not just Flash or Jaedong. Yes, it is a shame. Next time remember to do your homework, it'll teach you a lot. On August 06 2012 22:38 Chargelot wrote: You are disgustingly arrogant. If the KeSPA players were better, they'd win. It's as simple as that. The better player wins. Could they potentially be better? Yes. Are they currently better? Not even close. You call yourself an objective bystander, yet you have not used objectivity to judge the situation. You have argued with thoughts and feelings, not with measurable facts. Whenever someone attempts to deny you, you just tell them they're stupid and require further education. You've met your match. In the words of your people, the trolls, "come at me bro". What does it mean to say someone is the better player? Is Bischu the better player than Taeja? If it were a best of three, he would have 2-0d Taeja. I don't think Bischu is or was the better player than Taeja. Do you? I do think that Bischu played better but that is not equivalent to being the better player. Of course, all this is redundant because I don't think Jaedong is currently the better player. Does he have the potential to be the better player? Yes. Way better. Sometimes, unfortunately, an argument will not do and ridicule is the only option. Gurembles there is a good example. It is simply a fact that his interpretation, as is so many else's, of the Elephant thread, is wrong. I have tried pointing this out and I've even offered to elaborate on the points. But as I said, sometimes an argument will not work, no matter how sound it is. Don't consider me a troll. Consider me a teacher. You could learn a few things. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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jellyjello
Korea (South)664 Posts
On August 07 2012 00:49 Markwerf wrote: But in the same game he also missed lots of drops, failed to cancel hatches on time etc etc. First game was alright but also hard to judge because it was so passive for a long time (and when it did get later on JD kind of fell apart), second game was just abysmal. Mechanics looked fine but nothing spectacular either, still tactically he needs quite a bit of improvement. Not sure where he missed drops until the very end. He defended early drops very well considering he wasn't aware of drops coming his way. There are some GSL zergs that would fold competely if two medival full of marines with stim safely lands in your main without you catching them first while your entire army is out in the middle of map . JD did very well to only lose his pool. Antiga is considered a T favored map in TvZ because T can deny the 8th gas from zerg by sieging the middle. This is the #1 thing for Korean zergs when playing T in this map. Once you know that, you'd get a better grasp of why and how JD was playing in his first game. He fought very hard to not lose the center while defending multi drops at the same time. He even managed to hold on to his fourth base until he got to the Hive. All this while not missing a single larva inject (this is important because without constant larva inject, you cant army trade vs T efficiently). | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
 The second game also showcased his inexperience by attempting a baneling bust that would have probably worked 18 months ago. Edit What the guy below said - jaedongs creep spread, injects and infestor control was all excellent. | ||
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Thurken
961 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:17 crms wrote: I didn't expect jaedong to beat aLive, that too big a shark too early. Having said that, how were his games? Is he showing improvement (no more weird queen attacks?) You can look at page 114 for some vod. | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:17 crms wrote: I didn't expect jaedong to beat aLive, that too big a shark too early. Having said that, how were his games? Is he showing improvement (no more weird queen attacks?) He looked good. Few control errors here and there (losing all his broodlords for nothing) but other than that he looked pretty strong. Alive eventually dismantled him through sheer macro and multitasking (he dropped the fuck out of jaedong, like 3-4 prong drops simultaneously) but jd's infestor control and creep spread looked really strong already. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On August 07 2012 00:52 Kazeyonoma wrote: I think the majority of the threads bw/sc2 arguments can be summed up as: 1) The BW pros aren't ready yet, but there were some glimpses of awesome 2) The Elephant article was wrong about the 'timing' of dominance, but there is still time for the kespa pros to catch up 3) jaedong vs. alive isn't exactly fair, ipl3 champion, and long time code S terran vs. half bw, half sc2 jaedong. not unexpected result. 4) Coaches state that BW pros show very amazing mechanics, and win despite being less knowledgeable, showing promise for future dominance, but not ready yet. 5) sc2 fans calling out bw elitist. does that sound about right? Yes, from what i've been reading. | ||
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MetalPanda
Canada1152 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:13 Squeegy wrote: Yes, it is a shame. Next time remember to do your homework, it'll teach you a lot. What does it mean to say someone is the better player? Is Bischu the better player than Taeja? If it were a best of three, he would have 2-0d Taeja. I don't think Bischu is or was the better player than Taeja. Do you? I do think that Bischu played better but that is not equivalent to being the better player. Of course, all this is redundant because I don't think Jaedong is currently the better player. Does he have the potential to be the better player? Yes. Way better. Sometimes, unfortunately, an argument will not do and ridicule is the only option. Gurembles there is a good example. It is simply a fact that his interpretation, as is so many else's, of the Elephant thread, is wrong. I have tried pointing this out and I've even offered to elaborate on the points. But as I said, sometimes an argument will not work, no matter how sound it is. Don't consider me a troll. Consider me a teacher. You could learn a few things. Except Taeja played it like it was a Bo5 against a random noob, and Taeja won the two first games by cheesing. As soon as he went for macro he won. Sometimes it's just HOW it happens, not the result itself. JD has some real potential, but there's no denying Alive is a better SC2 player right now. | ||
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PhoenixDark
United States286 Posts
The Kespa players will be good/great soon. Jaedong has great mechanics, as does Flash. The issue is timings, builds, and general game sense. They can't compete with Code S players right now, but eventually they will. I'm not sure any of them could qualify for Code A next season, given what I've seen in the proleague. I must say that seeing Jaedong struggle against multi pronged drops put a smile on my face, even as a fan of his. SC2 has a very high skill ceiling, we haven't seen it yet. | ||
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Rance
Canada18 Posts
The game has been figured out by a lot of players who were dedicated to SC2 now including those who've been stuck in Code A for the longest time such as Leenock and Squirtle. It's gonna be quite a while for Kespa players to catch up. | ||
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Dranak
United States464 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:17 crms wrote: I didn't expect jaedong to beat aLive, that too big a shark too early. Having said that, how were his games? Is he showing improvement (no more weird queen attacks?) He's improving. He did generally the right thing, just flawed execution and lots of small mistakes. He's getting good, but he's not great at SC2 yet. Someone posted the matches (in Korean) on youtube. | ||
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vesicular
United States1311 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:13 Squeegy wrote:Of course, all this is redundant because I don't think Jaedong is currently the better player. Does he have the potential to be the better player? Yes. Way better. This is about the only thing that matters. Does anyone think that JD will never be Code S or take home titles in SC2? The entire conversation of this needing to happen overnight is silly and goes for any Kespa player. The question is how long it will take and who they will displace at Code S/A level. The extremes on both sides are fighting over nothing. No Kespa player is good enough yet, but there will be Kespa players that take over and dominate in SC2 eventually. Both of these things are fairly certain. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:53 vesicular wrote: This is about the only thing that matters. Does anyone think that JD will never be Code S or take home titles in SC2? The entire conversation of this needing to happen overnight is silly and goes for any Kespa player. The question is how long it will take and who they will displace at Code S/A level. The extremes on both sides are fighting over nothing. No Kespa player is good enough yet, but there will be Kespa players that take over and dominate in SC2 eventually. Both of these things are fairly certain. NONE of the TBLS will win a GSL title mark my words. | ||
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Vadrigar
Bulgaria2379 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Actually this is why I think Western players will eventually surpass all Korean players. Coming back from a 2 year break is close to impossible and since most western countries do not have mandatory military service any more the westerners will have 2 bonus years to catch up and exceed the Korean players skill. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On August 07 2012 02:00 Xiphos wrote: NONE of the TBLS will win a GSL title mark my words. TheMarine thinks that Dong will win an sc2 individ title in late 2012/early 2013. | ||
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BlindKill
Australia1508 Posts
On August 07 2012 02:00 Xiphos wrote: NONE of the TBLS will win a GSL title mark my words. why? Bisu i understand though | ||
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