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On August 06 2012 21:29 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking: Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58) 58% No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32) 32% Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10) 10% 100 total votes Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight? (Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.
I don't think it is a good poll. The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so. The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level. I feel this poll is too back and white. Edit: lol @ map balance whine As others and myself have said, the poll is black and white because the Elephant in the Room concept is black and white. The third option of "not yet but it's looking like it will be" is a bit of grey area I added. The question is whether or not KeSPA players will dominate the scene eventually as that article suggests. If you go to TL Final Edits the summary of that article is "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce. Here's why." Personally, I don't think that is the case. I think eventually KeSPA players will be on the same level as the GSL guys, but not generally better than them and therefore GSL Progaming is not a farce. We'll see though, this was just the first night of this poll.
Thanks for explaining! Didn't think of from that angle. Will vote option 3 the Grey area then 
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On August 06 2012 21:18 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:16 Yello wrote:On August 06 2012 21:15 Eurytos wrote:On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking: Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58) 58% No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32) 32% Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10) 10% 100 total votes Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight? (Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.
This poll seems to have rather extreme choices. Neither do i feel that GSL is a farce and that the games would have been closer, nor do am i VERY SURE that in 6 months time kespa players will dominate. What I feel is something more moderate where more kespa players will eventually compete at Code S level, but they won't be dominating the scenes either. Code S players will still have the slight edge but eventually the gap will be closed and both kespa and gsl players have almost equal representation in tourneys. The poll is extreme because the "Elephant" concept is an extreme concept which says that the Kespa players will completely dominate the SC2 scene after switching. The thread clearly didn't take into account the players having to practice for both BW and SC2.
Actually from the tone of it it implied that theyd dominate the day they started playing. Get over this retarded hype of the BW players. Some will be great. Some will be good. Some will not be that good and they will disappear. Some current SC2 players will stay at the top, some will move a bit more towards the middle and some will disappear. Man.
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2/2 elephants slayed, easy liquidbets!
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On August 06 2012 21:24 Wildmoon wrote:
What I find funny is what people said that TBLS and other top BW pros are naturally gifted at RTS game so they will dominate SC2 too. The only thing we know now is that they are gifted at BW not other games. We can't be so sure that they will dominate. Other players from Kespa may replace them.
Apparently you missed out on the quote from Clide about Flash.
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On August 06 2012 21:25 Shock710 wrote:i liquidbet with my HEART T_T
You shoudnt, just always vote against the heart always and it'll be win-win!
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On August 06 2012 21:24 Wildmoon wrote:
What I find funny is what people said that TBLS and other top BW pros are naturally gifted at RTS game so they will dominate SC2 too. The only thing we know now is that they are gifted at BW not other games. We can't be so sure that they will dominate. Other players from Kespa may replace them.
Ah that elephant thread.
I think we all know what has been "a farce" so far in Starcraft 2 lol.
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On August 06 2012 21:23 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:22 mememolly wrote:On August 06 2012 21:17 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On August 06 2012 21:14 mememolly wrote:On August 06 2012 21:12 Aeceus wrote:On August 06 2012 21:10 mememolly wrote:On August 06 2012 21:09 Aeceus wrote:On August 06 2012 21:07 mememolly wrote:On August 06 2012 21:05 Thinasy wrote:On August 06 2012 21:04 mememolly wrote:
roaches are probably the worst unit to build there, even gold leaguers know this, sad to watch, BW mechanics but gold league unit comp and builds and execution Just stop posting please. why? because I have a different opinion to you? No because you are wrong. how is it wrong? just saying something is wrong or telling someone to go away isn't exactly convincing Like 10 other people are telling you why its wrong, look at them plz. errr, one other person told me to "go away" and you said that roaches are good in JD's situation in g2 without explaining why, plz explain how roaches are good against rine marauder and medivac Just stop already. You were frigging exaggerating as hell. There are very well moments where playing this Roach/Ling/Bling is somewhat appropriate, and in this game it was okay. Considering that JD was rather behind already and that Alive did play very well it wasn't too terrible. But that's just one thing. Your pathetic "even gold leaguers[...]". Just stop. Those statements are bad and you should feel bad. By the way, what's your league? I'm masters, I really think his decision making was subpar, he built like 40 lings after the failed bust, maybe he thought a push was coming I dunno, he shouldn't have built roaches against rine marauder vac and I don't know how you can justify this as they are objectively bad against alive's unit comp, the gold league comment was low I agree but I don't feel bad for having a different opinion to you i really dislike this "my rank is" kinda thing when debating, u should settle it the old bw way "1V1 LETS GO BITCH GOOGOGO" lol that was the best
Hahaha I really dislike that type of stuff too, so I looked back at the conversation. That was a response to a question the guy before asked
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On August 06 2012 21:33 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:24 Wildmoon wrote:
What I find funny is what people said that TBLS and other top BW pros are naturally gifted at RTS game so they will dominate SC2 too. The only thing we know now is that they are gifted at BW not other games. We can't be so sure that they will dominate. Other players from Kespa may replace them. Apparently you missed out on the quote from Clide about Flash.
I think Flash has potential. But Clide isn't exactly unbiased... He just got hire as KT coach, what else is he suppose to say?
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On August 06 2012 21:33 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:24 Wildmoon wrote:
What I find funny is what people said that TBLS and other top BW pros are naturally gifted at RTS game so they will dominate SC2 too. The only thing we know now is that they are gifted at BW not other games. We can't be so sure that they will dominate. Other players from Kespa may replace them. Apparently you missed out on the quote from Clide about Flash.
Is there any reason I should believe that what Clide said is 100% true? Flash may dominate again but what about other top players?
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On August 06 2012 21:16 grungust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:12 MCDayC wrote:On August 06 2012 21:09 grungust wrote:
JD would have won that first game on a more balanced map. JD could have very easily won this match against a legit code s terran. Despite the 0-2 loss, JD still looked impressive. Blaming balance (even if its map balance) is a really stupid thing to do, JD lost straight up, don't try to dodge it. You have no argument. All you did was call my statement 'stupid'. Antiga heavily favors Terran (FACT, check tournament statistics/and just look at the archetype of the map). Having the map favor Terran doesn't help aLive's chances to win? lol.
From TLPD:
TvZ: 260-262 (49.8%) (International)
TvZ: 108-93 (53.7%) (Korea)
I'm not sure I'd concider 4% "heavily favoring terran".
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JD looked alright in the first game and downright awful in the second game.
First game was quite passive early on with JD doing well in scouting, control etc. Lategame choices were quite poor though with his broodlord handling etc. he got picked apart quite quickly there.
Second game he just got destroyed and played really poor. Scouts the 2 rax but later on still loses a ton of lings to marines (like he didn't know marines between minerals were really strong) and just had some poor control. The bust was laughably bad really and following it up with a round of lings while doing nothing was also weird. Finally the roach transition, while already going for the second melee upgrade, was just really bad.
Mechanics overall looked solid especially stuff like the creep spreading he did on antiga. Tactically it's still very bad and especially the things like stopping drops or small attacks effectively really looked poor still. Before HOTS I don't think we will be seeing any good results of JD and most Kespa players, maybe a few will be lucky/good enough to get a bit further. The metagame reset with HOTS will even the playing field i guess and maybe some kespa players will even become best.
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On August 06 2012 21:39 DizzyDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:16 grungust wrote:On August 06 2012 21:12 MCDayC wrote:On August 06 2012 21:09 grungust wrote:
JD would have won that first game on a more balanced map. JD could have very easily won this match against a legit code s terran. Despite the 0-2 loss, JD still looked impressive. Blaming balance (even if its map balance) is a really stupid thing to do, JD lost straight up, don't try to dodge it. You have no argument. All you did was call my statement 'stupid'. Antiga heavily favors Terran (FACT, check tournament statistics/and just look at the archetype of the map). Having the map favor Terran doesn't help aLive's chances to win? lol. From TLPD: TvZ: 260-262 (49.8%) (International) TvZ: 108-93 (53.7%) (Korea) I'm not sure I'd concider 4% "heavily favoring terran".
Afaik entombed is somewhat balanced stat wise too, yet I don't think we need to argue whether this map is better for toss or for zerg. There is more to map balance than statistics.
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On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking: Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58) 58% No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32) 32% Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10) 10% 100 total votes Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight? (Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.
I don't think it is a good poll. The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so. The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level. I feel this poll is too back and white. Edit: lol @ map balance whine
The elephant theory specifically stated that:
-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching
The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.
The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though 
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Sad about JD's results but really proud of the progress he has made in such a short time. Great showing tonight.
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On August 06 2012 21:41 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:39 DizzyDrone wrote:On August 06 2012 21:16 grungust wrote:On August 06 2012 21:12 MCDayC wrote:On August 06 2012 21:09 grungust wrote:
JD would have won that first game on a more balanced map. JD could have very easily won this match against a legit code s terran. Despite the 0-2 loss, JD still looked impressive. Blaming balance (even if its map balance) is a really stupid thing to do, JD lost straight up, don't try to dodge it. You have no argument. All you did was call my statement 'stupid'. Antiga heavily favors Terran (FACT, check tournament statistics/and just look at the archetype of the map). Having the map favor Terran doesn't help aLive's chances to win? lol. From TLPD: TvZ: 260-262 (49.8%) (International) TvZ: 108-93 (53.7%) (Korea) I'm not sure I'd concider 4% "heavily favoring terran". Afaik entombed is somewhat balanced stat wise too, yet I don't think we need to argue whether this map is better for toss or for zerg. There is more to map balance than statistics.
I never said there wasn't?
I just disagree on his point that tournament statistics show Antiga heavily favoring Terran, with him going so far as to call it fact.
There is more to map balance then statistics, but there is also more to SC2 than map balance. Saying Jaedong lost the series only because of the map cheapens Alive's victory.
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On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking: Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58) 58% No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32) 32% Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10) 10% 100 total votes Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight? (Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.
I don't think it is a good poll. The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so. The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level. I feel this poll is too back and white. Edit: lol @ map balance whine The elephant theory specifically stated that: -The competition was a farce -Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result. The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though
No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.
I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.
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Meh i missed the Horror one others are easy bets. Sad JD lost but nothing suprising BW players need more time and the focus of playing one game alone. Only then can they truely compete, and who knows maybe that does mean the Elephant got shot dead.
Even the greatest need time and a hell of alot of practice to compete.
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On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking: Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58) 58% No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32) 32% Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10) 10% 100 total votes Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight? (Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.
I don't think it is a good poll. The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so. The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level. I feel this poll is too back and white. Edit: lol @ map balance whine The elephant theory specifically stated that: -The competition was a farce -Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result. The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate. I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.
How do you even know that Kespa's pro will be better than GSL's pros?
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EPT
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