• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:27
CEST 20:27
KST 03:27
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview6[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28)10[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June4Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? Updates to The Core/Core Lite for v5.0.16? RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 2026 Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested
Tourneys
Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) GSL Code S Season 2 (2026)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 530 One For All The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected
Brood War
General
Where is EffOrt? BW General Discussion vespene.gg — BW replays in browser BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Relatively freeroll strategies Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread ZeroSpace Megathread Total War: Warhammer 40K Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread [H]Internet/Gaming Cafe Tips and Tricks Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Does Workplace Frustration D…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8688 users

[WCS KR] WR1 D1 - Page 112

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
Post a Reply
Prev 1 110 111 112 113 114 119 Next
SiroKO
Profile Joined February 2012
France721 Posts
August 06 2012 12:59 GMT
#2221
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


Is that a new form of trolling, or the religion of the BW fanatics ?

Our envy always last longer than the happiness of those we envy
mordk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Chile8385 Posts
August 06 2012 13:00 GMT
#2222
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.

Like you said yourself is that it hasn't been expected for a while. That's just a modification of the theory in face of the obvious. You should read the article again so you can see how drastic it is.
Squeegy
Profile Joined October 2009
Finland1166 Posts
August 06 2012 13:00 GMT
#2223
On August 06 2012 21:59 SiroKO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


Is that a new form of trolling, or the religion of the BW fanatics ?



Oh, I am no fanatic or a troll. I am just an objective bystander. Feel free to disagree with me at any point I said, and I will explain to you, why you are wrong.
Stan: Dude, dolphins are intelligent and friendly. Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonnaise.
sOda~
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom441 Posts
August 06 2012 13:01 GMT
#2224
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


wow thanks captain obvious
IM THE SHIT BITCH
H0RNET
Profile Joined March 2011
Thailand138 Posts
August 06 2012 13:04 GMT
#2225
On August 06 2012 21:17 Shock710 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:13 Levistus wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:09 Shock710 wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:06 aRyuujin wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:05 Chenz wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:03 shineq wrote:
I'm kinda sad now, I wanted to see the Kespa players do well

Reality is still in the tournament, and he's actually quite good. If a KeSPA player would have a decent shot in this tournament, it's him.


sad to see Light not in this, he's one of the best kespa players at sc2.

lights fangirl is sooo pretty + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

more pics of lightgirl pls :D

as u wish but i'm spoilering them cause their too big
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading][image loading]


PM ME IF U HAVE MORE PLZ
http://hearthstone.in.th
Squeegy
Profile Joined October 2009
Finland1166 Posts
August 06 2012 13:06 GMT
#2226
On August 06 2012 22:01 sOda~ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


wow thanks captain obvious


Thank you. It always bothers me when people do not understand the obvious.

On August 06 2012 22:00 mordk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.

Like you said yourself is that it hasn't been expected for a while. That's just a modification of the theory in face of the obvious. You should read the article again so you can see how drastic it is.


It is not a modification of the theory. You misunderstand it, I suggest you read it again. Intrigue spoke of the current level when he spoke of the timeframe. It in no way contradicts the point of his argument if Kespa pros do not dominate in a few months now.
Stan: Dude, dolphins are intelligent and friendly. Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonnaise.
Fluffboll
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden516 Posts
August 06 2012 13:06 GMT
#2227
On August 06 2012 22:00 Squeegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:59 SiroKO wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


Is that a new form of trolling, or the religion of the BW fanatics ?



Oh, I am no fanatic or a troll. I am just an objective bystander. Feel free to disagree with me at any point I said, and I will explain to you, why you are wrong.


The Elephant theory have always been and will always be completly retarded. It was never based on anything but BW fanatics delusions.
You need to construct additional pylons.
Squeegy
Profile Joined October 2009
Finland1166 Posts
August 06 2012 13:07 GMT
#2228
On August 06 2012 22:06 Fluffboll wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 22:00 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:59 SiroKO wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


Is that a new form of trolling, or the religion of the BW fanatics ?



Oh, I am no fanatic or a troll. I am just an objective bystander. Feel free to disagree with me at any point I said, and I will explain to you, why you are wrong.


The Elephant theory have always been and will always be completly retarded. It was never based on anything but BW fanatics delusions.


Now that is a strong argument! Well done.
Stan: Dude, dolphins are intelligent and friendly. Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonnaise.
Uni1987
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands642 Posts
August 06 2012 13:08 GMT
#2229
On August 06 2012 21:58 Wildmoon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


How do you even know that Kespa's pro will be better than GSL's pros?


It's just speculation. So, horse crap. A lot of nice words and expectations, based on there own dreams.
.............
Levistus
Profile Joined December 2009
1134 Posts
August 06 2012 13:09 GMT
#2230
On August 06 2012 21:17 Shock710 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:13 Levistus wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:09 Shock710 wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:06 aRyuujin wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:05 Chenz wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:03 shineq wrote:
I'm kinda sad now, I wanted to see the Kespa players do well

Reality is still in the tournament, and he's actually quite good. If a KeSPA player would have a decent shot in this tournament, it's him.


sad to see Light not in this, he's one of the best kespa players at sc2.

lights fangirl is sooo pretty + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

more pics of lightgirl pls :D

as u wish but i'm spoilering them cause their too big
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading][image loading]

she's really pretty. id marry her if i were light!
hey man just curious
Fluffboll
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden516 Posts
August 06 2012 13:09 GMT
#2231
On August 06 2012 22:07 Squeegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 22:06 Fluffboll wrote:
On August 06 2012 22:00 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:59 SiroKO wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


Is that a new form of trolling, or the religion of the BW fanatics ?



Oh, I am no fanatic or a troll. I am just an objective bystander. Feel free to disagree with me at any point I said, and I will explain to you, why you are wrong.


The Elephant theory have always been and will always be completly retarded. It was never based on anything but BW fanatics delusions.


Now that is a strong argument! Well done.


Give me anything that has at anytime proven the theory beyond silly theorycrafting and maybe I will give you a good argument, because neither you or anyone else speaking on behalf of the elephant theory have produced any reality based arguments.
You need to construct additional pylons.
Levistus
Profile Joined December 2009
1134 Posts
August 06 2012 13:10 GMT
#2232
On August 06 2012 21:33 jellyjello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 21:24 Wildmoon wrote:
What I find funny is what people said that TBLS and other top BW pros are naturally gifted at RTS game so they will dominate SC2 too. The only thing we know now is that they are gifted at BW not other games. We can't be so sure that they will dominate. Other players from Kespa may replace them.


Apparently you missed out on the quote from Clide about Flash.

what did clide say about flash?

i think flash is really good. i noticed his losses were BO losses. he's probably still experimenting.
hey man just curious
SiroKO
Profile Joined February 2012
France721 Posts
August 06 2012 13:10 GMT
#2233
On August 06 2012 22:06 Fluffboll wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 22:00 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:59 SiroKO wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


Is that a new form of trolling, or the religion of the BW fanatics ?



Oh, I am no fanatic or a troll. I am just an objective bystander. Feel free to disagree with me at any point I said, and I will explain to you, why you are wrong.


The Elephant theory have always been and will always be completly retarded. It was never based on anything but BW fanatics delusions.


Let's create an hateful thread such as:" The kespa delusion", "so far the Kespa players have been a farce".
At least we could based our thread on evidences, like that 5-10% winrate of kespa vs GSL code A+ players.

Our envy always last longer than the happiness of those we envy
Wildmoon
Profile Joined December 2011
Thailand4189 Posts
August 06 2012 13:12 GMT
#2234
On August 06 2012 22:10 SiroKO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 22:06 Fluffboll wrote:
On August 06 2012 22:00 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:59 SiroKO wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


Is that a new form of trolling, or the religion of the BW fanatics ?



Oh, I am no fanatic or a troll. I am just an objective bystander. Feel free to disagree with me at any point I said, and I will explain to you, why you are wrong.


The Elephant theory have always been and will always be completly retarded. It was never based on anything but BW fanatics delusions.


Let's create an hateful thread such as:" The kespa delusion", "so far the Kespa players have been a farce".
At least we could based our thread on evidences, like that 5-10% winrate of kespa vs GSL code A+ players.



Let's not sink to that level.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
August 06 2012 13:12 GMT
#2235
Current GSL players are roughly the same group as they were a year ago, the elephant theory always was that the competition was a farce not because of the level of play, but because of the people dominating. Clearly, the same people are dominating, so competition should still be a farce, by the elephant theory's standards. Nobody ever denied that among the KeSPA players there would be a lot of really strong players, I think people are just hesitant to say that given a year they will come to totally dominate the scene (not to mention the leap required to say that the competition was worthless before).

Squeegy is simply morphing the theory to suit his own needs, so he can keep it as a sort of boogeyman looming over the scene.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Squeegy
Profile Joined October 2009
Finland1166 Posts
August 06 2012 13:13 GMT
#2236
On August 06 2012 22:09 Fluffboll wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 22:07 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 22:06 Fluffboll wrote:
On August 06 2012 22:00 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:59 SiroKO wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:54 Squeegy wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:43 mordk wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:17 Yorbon wrote:
On August 06 2012 21:08 TheDougler wrote:
Alright, so I'm gonna be asking this question a bunch over the coming months, and I figure tonight is a good night to start asking:

Poll: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer. (58)
 
58%

No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene (32)
 
32%

Not yet, but it's looking like it will be. (10)
 
10%

100 total votes

Your vote: Has the Elephant been slain tonight?

(Vote): No, give them six months and they will dominate the scene
(Vote): Yes, if GSL pro gaming is a farce these games would have been closer.
(Vote): Not yet, but it's looking like it will be.

I don't think it is a good poll.

The gsl competition is not a farce, but that doesn't mean the kespa players won't dominate in like 6 months or so.
The point is that the potential of these people is unknown at this moment. If we still see games like this in another 3 months, I might begin to think there is no elephant (dependent on player of course). Personally i still think kespaplayers playing sc2 will give an upward force in terms of overall skill level. Does that mean i think there is an elephant? not necessarily. Just an increase in population (of progamers) should give a rise in level.
I feel this poll is too back and white.

Edit: lol @ map balance whine

The elephant theory specifically stated that:

-The competition was a farce
-Because of that, BW pros would totally roflstomp GOM pros immediately or shortly after switching

The theory WAS just as black and white as the poll. People are just softening the arguments like they always do when theories fail. As much as I love JD this was the expected result.

The elephant was stillborn, anyone with a good perspective view has known this for a while. I find it funny to call them "Team elephants" though


No, you simply lack hearing comprehension. What was said, was that the time the level of play was weak and that it would take the Kespa pros a few months to dominate. Everybody has agreed that the level of play is miles above what it used to be back then, therefore the claim that it would take Kespa pros a few months to dominate has not been expected in quite a while. What is expected though, and what the article also did try to say, is that the Kespa pros are better than the current GSL players. And yes they are. It will just take them a little while before they will dominate.

I expect you to thank me later on for this free lesson I just offered you.


Is that a new form of trolling, or the religion of the BW fanatics ?



Oh, I am no fanatic or a troll. I am just an objective bystander. Feel free to disagree with me at any point I said, and I will explain to you, why you are wrong.


The Elephant theory have always been and will always be completly retarded. It was never based on anything but BW fanatics delusions.


Now that is a strong argument! Well done.


Give me anything that has at anytime proven the theory beyond silly theorycrafting and maybe I will give you a good argument, because neither you or anyone else speaking on behalf of the elephant theory have produced any reality based arguments.


Yet again, a strong argument! I am proud of you. But you're missing the entire point in that the Elephant argument will be evaluated over time. It cannot be proved or disproved today.
Stan: Dude, dolphins are intelligent and friendly. Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonnaise.
Squeegy
Profile Joined October 2009
Finland1166 Posts
August 06 2012 13:17 GMT
#2237
On August 06 2012 22:12 Grumbels wrote:
Current GSL players are roughly the same group as they were a year ago, the elephant theory always was that the competition was a farce not because of the level of play, but because of the people dominating. Clearly, the same people are dominating, so competition should still be a farce, by the elephant theory's standards. Nobody ever denied that among the KeSPA players there would be a lot of really strong players, I think people are just hesitant to say that given a year they will come to totally dominate the scene (not to mention the leap required to say that the competition was worthless before).

Squeegy is simply morphing the theory to suit his own needs, so he can keep it as a sort of boogeyman looming over the scene.


I suggest you read a book or two on formal logic. It'll teach how to analyze arguments and how to notice the subtle things that lead to misrepresentation such as the one you have arrived at. You can thank me later, friend!
Stan: Dude, dolphins are intelligent and friendly. Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonnaise.
letian
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany4221 Posts
August 06 2012 13:20 GMT
#2238
ahhh, JD, it's ok, moaaar time is needed.
MrMercuG
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands2389 Posts
August 06 2012 13:22 GMT
#2239
I don't understand why everyone is saying that the BW pro's (the high level ones) are not going to be playing SC2 at a high level, they have only been playing for a couple of months. For example the WC3 pro's (Moon & Grubby) we're pretty terrible when they started but now have gotten stronger and stronger and still are growing super fast. I think that that's going to be the same for the BW pro's.
xNSwarm
Profile Joined December 2011
155 Posts
August 06 2012 13:22 GMT
#2240
On August 06 2012 22:17 Squeegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2012 22:12 Grumbels wrote:
Current GSL players are roughly the same group as they were a year ago, the elephant theory always was that the competition was a farce not because of the level of play, but because of the people dominating. Clearly, the same people are dominating, so competition should still be a farce, by the elephant theory's standards. Nobody ever denied that among the KeSPA players there would be a lot of really strong players, I think people are just hesitant to say that given a year they will come to totally dominate the scene (not to mention the leap required to say that the competition was worthless before).

Squeegy is simply morphing the theory to suit his own needs, so he can keep it as a sort of boogeyman looming over the scene.


I suggest you read a book or two on formal logic. It'll teach how to analyze arguments and how to notice the subtle things that lead to misrepresentation such as the one you have arrived at. You can thank me later, friend!

As a bystander with no opinion on the matter, Squeegy, you come off as very sarcastic and naturally seem to push people away from your own opinion.
Prev 1 110 111 112 113 114 119 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 34m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 226
ProTech156
Livibee 127
MindelVK 32
RushiSC 30
JuggernautJason5
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3283
Sea 930
Shuttle 822
Mini 730
EffOrt 662
Soulkey 271
ggaemo 157
firebathero 132
Dewaltoss 68
Mong 55
[ Show more ]
sorry 28
Hyun 27
Sacsri 21
Rock 16
IntoTheRainbow 15
Bale 14
Shine 12
Dota 2
qojqva3975
420jenkins489
monkeys_forever218
Counter-Strike
Coldzera 1279
edward215
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu188
Other Games
pashabiceps4247
Grubby3121
FrodaN1452
Dendi933
B2W.Neo757
ceh9611
Beastyqt553
Hui .225
C9.Mang0213
ArmadaUGS117
XaKoH 113
BRAT_OK 110
Trikslyr73
OptimusSC20
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream2832
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 34
• 80smullet 11
• FirePhoenix8
• Michael_bg 2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade932
Other Games
• imaqtpie759
• Shiphtur199
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
5h 34m
Replay Cast
14h 34m
The PondCast
1d 15h
OSC
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
GSL
3 days
Maru vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Reynor
herO vs Lambo
Solar vs Clem
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
4 days
XuanXuan vs Jaystar
Mihu vs Messiah
eOnzErG vs Dewalt
Bonyth vs Jaystar
TerrOr vs Messiah
XuanXuan vs Mihu
eOnzErG vs Jaystar
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL
4 days
Patches Events
4 days
[ Show More ]
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
5 days
Dewalt vs Messiah
Bonyth vs Mihu
TerrOr vs XuanXuan
eOnzErG vs Messiah
Jaystar vs Mihu
Dewalt vs XuanXuan
Bonyth vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-06-15
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
SCTL 2026 Spring
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
Murky Cup 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
BCC 2026
Heroes Pulsing #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.