On May 19 2012 21:16 Shadow_Dog wrote: BCs, new late game TvP standard now? I thought they were pretty effective.
also wondering the same lol
MVP could have spread his BCs into 3-4 groups. Doesn´t say anything about BCs at all, but more about MVP´s decisions and the toilet+archon strat that basically beats almost everything in seconds.
yeah one EMP on the mothership would have worked wonders as well ^.^
Indeed. It is such a rare occurance that players actually micro their BCs. They got a speed buffs ages ago and still they clump them up. IMHO, even pro players like MVP should learn from this.
Squirtle might still have won the game (he had like 9000 minerals), but I just cannot believe how poorly MVP executed that BC attack. It was almost as bad as that island attack from Squirtle where he stranded most of his units.
Game 5 was total chaos, but it climaxed like there was no tomorrow. What a great and also very weird game that was.
Nice GSL finals!
Considering how small the range of BC's is splitting them up isn't that good since its very easy to snipe them off if you do that. Also the speedbuff is only really in effect once the BC's accelerate after moving for a good amount of time.
5-6 BCs in one group shouldn´t be that easy to snipe of. He also didn´t need to spread them that far away, either.
My 2 problems with that are that you will reasonably only have enough to for 2 of those groups and they are still vulnerable to archon aoe stacked up and a good vortex.
On May 19 2012 21:16 Shadow_Dog wrote: BCs, new late game TvP standard now? I thought they were pretty effective.
also wondering the same lol
I might be wrong but I just cant see them staying. Squirtle seemed like that game he was just improving things to do to deal with what MVP was doing. For example that recall to snipe the island was clearly not planned out or he would have had a better way to get back. However the archon toilot, despite not being terribly well executed (2 more archons in there and those BCs dont even need to get stormed) it still decimated that style hard and in a way that I think might lend itself to dominating it in the future.
I actually wonder about the archon toilet. In PvZ it's uniquely good because Z has no feedback/EMP. Against Terran I wonder how useful it can be-- it seems much more hit and miss, so to speak.
Tbh it's pretty much a massive gamble because you're relying on avoiding an AoE energy drain coming from a cloaked unit.
Self-evidently can be effective, but it's pretty much as volatile as the HT/Ghost relationship without the advantage of being able to have multiple units you can split (only one Mothership).
Yes its still a gamble but the archons werent even the most important part of it. What I believe helped him most was that he got half of the BCs out of the fight so that he could kill other half. Unless you go MVP style full turtle (which is kinda awesome on rare occaions he brings it out) you arent going to have an insane ghost count compared to your opponents HT count which nullify yamato fairly well and storm which is hard for BCs to move out of and even the archon splash which I think is more effective to just take than to try and split but I dont have much to go on for that.
It was a hell of a smart positioning on where he dropped the Vortex, agreed.
I think MVP's problem at that point was he didn't know what to do about the vortex. When half your BC army gets vortexed like that do you want to throw everything in it and hope you got enough or try to pull back until the rest of your army is released? I mean...how many times does terran even have to make that kind of decision? It's not like BC play is exactly massively explored.
I think MVP might have even been better off keeping those Vikings honestly. Might have sniped the mothership.
If this becomes the "lategame" TvP go-to situation i think it could be quite intresting to see the potential ways it can be fleshed out for terran.
After a few tests,
2: In that engagement a ton of feedbacks went off, is there an arguement for terran emp'ing their own battlecruisers before the engagement to nullify the feedbacks. .
Does this actually work? I'm a bit blown away that I never thought of this. o.0
On May 19 2012 21:16 Shadow_Dog wrote: BCs, new late game TvP standard now? I thought they were pretty effective.
also wondering the same lol
MVP could have spread his BCs into 3-4 groups. Doesn´t say anything about BCs at all, but more about MVP´s decisions and the toilet+archon strat that basically beats almost everything in seconds.
yeah one EMP on the mothership would have worked wonders as well ^.^
Indeed. It is such a rare occurance that players actually micro their BCs. They got a speed buffs ages ago and still they clump them up. IMHO, even pro players like MVP should learn from this.
Squirtle might still have won the game (he had like 9000 minerals), but I just cannot believe how poorly MVP executed that BC attack. It was almost as bad as that island attack from Squirtle where he stranded most of his units.
Game 5 was total chaos, but it climaxed like there was no tomorrow. What a great and also very weird game that was.
Nice GSL finals!
Considering how small the range of BC's is splitting them up isn't that good since its very easy to snipe them off if you do that. Also the speedbuff is only really in effect once the BC's accelerate after moving for a good amount of time.
5-6 BCs in one group shouldn´t be that easy to snipe of. He also didn´t need to spread them that far away, either.
My 2 problems with that are that you will reasonably only have enough to for 2 of those groups and they are still vulnerable to archon aoe stacked up and a good vortex.
If you get ever vortexed as terran you deserve to lose the game.
On May 19 2012 21:16 Shadow_Dog wrote: BCs, new late game TvP standard now? I thought they were pretty effective.
also wondering the same lol
I might be wrong but I just cant see them staying. Squirtle seemed like that game he was just improving things to do to deal with what MVP was doing. For example that recall to snipe the island was clearly not planned out or he would have had a better way to get back. However the archon toilot, despite not being terribly well executed (2 more archons in there and those BCs dont even need to get stormed) it still decimated that style hard and in a way that I think might lend itself to dominating it in the future.
I actually wonder about the archon toilet. In PvZ it's uniquely good because Z has no feedback/EMP. Against Terran I wonder how useful it can be-- it seems much more hit and miss, so to speak.
Tbh it's pretty much a massive gamble because you're relying on avoiding an AoE energy drain coming from a cloaked unit.
Self-evidently can be effective, but it's pretty much as volatile as the HT/Ghost relationship without the advantage of being able to have multiple units you can split (only one Mothership).
Yes its still a gamble but the archons werent even the most important part of it. What I believe helped him most was that he got half of the BCs out of the fight so that he could kill other half. Unless you go MVP style full turtle (which is kinda awesome on rare occaions he brings it out) you arent going to have an insane ghost count compared to your opponents HT count which nullify yamato fairly well and storm which is hard for BCs to move out of and even the archon splash which I think is more effective to just take than to try and split but I dont have much to go on for that.
It was a hell of a smart positioning on where he dropped the Vortex, agreed.
I think MVP's problem at that point was he didn't know what to do about the vortex. When half your BC army gets vortexed like that do you want to throw everything in it and hope you got enough or try to pull back until the rest of your army is released? I mean...how many times does terran even have to make that kind of decision? It's not like BC play is exactly massively explored.
I think MVP might have even been better off keeping those Vikings honestly. Might have sniped the mothership.
If this becomes the "lategame" TvP go-to situation i think it could be quite intresting to see the potential ways it can be fleshed out for terran.
After a few tests,
2: In that engagement a ton of feedbacks went off, is there an arguement for terran emp'ing their own battlecruisers before the engagement to nullify the feedbacks. .
Does this actually work? I'm a bit blown away that I never thought of this. o.0
Of course it works, it's why I'm surprised everyone stopped using the thorzain Thor build, just EMP your Thors and the templar feedbacks get worse
On May 19 2012 21:16 Shadow_Dog wrote: BCs, new late game TvP standard now? I thought they were pretty effective.
also wondering the same lol
I might be wrong but I just cant see them staying. Squirtle seemed like that game he was just improving things to do to deal with what MVP was doing. For example that recall to snipe the island was clearly not planned out or he would have had a better way to get back. However the archon toilot, despite not being terribly well executed (2 more archons in there and those BCs dont even need to get stormed) it still decimated that style hard and in a way that I think might lend itself to dominating it in the future.
I actually wonder about the archon toilet. In PvZ it's uniquely good because Z has no feedback/EMP. Against Terran I wonder how useful it can be-- it seems much more hit and miss, so to speak.
Tbh it's pretty much a massive gamble because you're relying on avoiding an AoE energy drain coming from a cloaked unit.
Self-evidently can be effective, but it's pretty much as volatile as the HT/Ghost relationship without the advantage of being able to have multiple units you can split (only one Mothership).
Yes its still a gamble but the archons werent even the most important part of it. What I believe helped him most was that he got half of the BCs out of the fight so that he could kill other half. Unless you go MVP style full turtle (which is kinda awesome on rare occaions he brings it out) you arent going to have an insane ghost count compared to your opponents HT count which nullify yamato fairly well and storm which is hard for BCs to move out of and even the archon splash which I think is more effective to just take than to try and split but I dont have much to go on for that.
It was a hell of a smart positioning on where he dropped the Vortex, agreed.
I think MVP's problem at that point was he didn't know what to do about the vortex. When half your BC army gets vortexed like that do you want to throw everything in it and hope you got enough or try to pull back until the rest of your army is released? I mean...how many times does terran even have to make that kind of decision? It's not like BC play is exactly massively explored.
I think MVP might have even been better off keeping those Vikings honestly. Might have sniped the mothership.
If this becomes the "lategame" TvP go-to situation i think it could be quite intresting to see the potential ways it can be fleshed out for terran.
After a few tests,
2: In that engagement a ton of feedbacks went off, is there an arguement for terran emp'ing their own battlecruisers before the engagement to nullify the feedbacks. .
Does this actually work? I'm a bit blown away that I never thought of this. o.0
Of course it works, it's why I'm surprised everyone stopped using the thorzain Thor build, just EMP your Thors and the templar feedbacks get worse
to be honest you'd probably rather EMP the templar haha
On May 19 2012 21:30 TheKefka wrote: Ok real talk for a moment now about that game 5. + Show Spoiler +
That game was absolutely terrible.I can understand that people are hyped about when something unique happens but everything that led up to that point was just bad. Once squirtle decided that it was a good idea to recall 50 supply of his army to an islandd(which,when it happened,I facepalmed so hard that I nearly tore half of my face off) and get his mothership sniped(which was even worse),he should have lost the game right there. Fortunately for him,for some reason that's unknown to me,MVP decided it would be a good idea to sit back and wait till Squirtle recovers.All he had to do as soon as that mothership went down is 1A move the BCs and he would have rolled squirtle probably and even if he would have lost due to a influx of units since Squirtle had mad bank,that moment was absolutely the best time to win at that point,since squirtle had dead supply trapped. He SAW the mothership explode,it exploaded right over his expo.To not attack right there and than was just mind boggling.
That's what I was thinking the entire time, too. I think MVP was SO sure of his victory that he just decided to show off, since historically he did not have many fans compared to other players.
The Archon Toilet was an epic moment for sure...but it almost cost MVP the championship.
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