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If you look at how PvZ is played out nowadays, its actually Zerg who is playing the passive, turtle up to infestor broodlord "Deathball" game most of the time.
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On April 27 2012 01:17 Senixter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 00:31 ReachTheSky wrote:On April 27 2012 00:23 Hakanfrog wrote:
Man if protoss doesn´t win this GSL I doubt they ever will. Protoss HAS won a GSL. So he should not now? lol
where in my post does it imply that they shouldn't?
cmon man. Read the post. lol :D
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On April 27 2012 01:25 sc2holar wrote:
If you look at how PvZ is played out nowadays, its actually Zerg who is playing the passive, turtle up to infestor broodlord "Deathball" game most of the time.
na, most of the time it's zerg who tries to overrun Protoss with roach/ling and/or mutalisks prehive and only on maps on which the Protoss third is very safe (like Enombed Valley) it becomes a BL/Infestor/Corruptor turtle game.
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Does anyone know what the song was, that was after the first match ended?
The only part of the lyrics I remember is someting about "before you walk, you have to crawl", or something.
Would be forever in your debt!
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On April 27 2012 01:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 01:25 sc2holar wrote:
If you look at how PvZ is played out nowadays, its actually Zerg who is playing the passive, turtle up to infestor broodlord "Deathball" game most of the time. na, most of the time it's zerg who tries to overrun Protoss with roach/ling and/or mutalisks prehive and only on maps on which the Protoss third is very safe (like Enombed Valley) it becomes a BL/Infestor/Corruptor turtle game.
yeah, and when Zerg does roach/ling all-ins its "solid play" but when toss does a 2base gateway all-in he's a "lololol 2baser n00b", amirite?
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How the hell did Maru lose! I saw him crush Mc without problems and then went to school.
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Squirtle is looking really strong. He can take this GSL if he keeps this form.
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On April 27 2012 01:44 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 01:30 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 01:25 sc2holar wrote:
If you look at how PvZ is played out nowadays, its actually Zerg who is playing the passive, turtle up to infestor broodlord "Deathball" game most of the time. na, most of the time it's zerg who tries to overrun Protoss with roach/ling and/or mutalisks prehive and only on maps on which the Protoss third is very safe (like Enombed Valley) it becomes a BL/Infestor/Corruptor turtle game. yeah, and when Zerg does roach/ling all-ins its "solid play" but when toss does a 2base gateway all-in he's a "lololol 2baser n00b", amirite?
I don't think he's talking about roach/ling all-ins. Rather three base roach ling 200 food max at 12:30 in-game time.
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i no longer want to see mc in code s.
I know he is really good with timing pushes, but the games he showed was absolutely awful to watch compared to what
parting and squirtle showed.
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On April 27 2012 01:57 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 01:44 sc2holar wrote:On April 27 2012 01:30 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 01:25 sc2holar wrote:
If you look at how PvZ is played out nowadays, its actually Zerg who is playing the passive, turtle up to infestor broodlord "Deathball" game most of the time. na, most of the time it's zerg who tries to overrun Protoss with roach/ling and/or mutalisks prehive and only on maps on which the Protoss third is very safe (like Enombed Valley) it becomes a BL/Infestor/Corruptor turtle game. yeah, and when Zerg does roach/ling all-ins its "solid play" but when toss does a 2base gateway all-in he's a "lololol 2baser n00b", amirite? I don't think he's talking about roach/ling all-ins. Rather three base roach ling 200 food max at 12:30 in-game time.
Thats the one im talking about. And to be completley frank, its way easier to pull off than any toss 2-base all in, as gateway all-ins are usualy quite micro intensive while Roach/Ling is literary the definition of 1A.
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On April 27 2012 00:30 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 00:27 forsooth wrote:On April 27 2012 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 23:52 Derez wrote:On April 26 2012 23:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 22:56 vthree wrote:
Do Protoss players have selective memory. Why are People saying that
there hasn't been a p>t ro8 in so long when it happened LAST season. And
MADNESS? It occurs just as much as p>t ro8 seasons... It was called GomTvT for a reason. Nothing was worse than GomTvT. People could stay in Code S for seasons on a single matchup. As Artosis says - the best players atm are playing protoss and I agree. There's exceptions but overall there's a sick good protoss lineup of players who are sick good overall. Doesn't change the fact that TvT is a great match-up, while any match-up involving protoss ends up in a massive AoE fest that's absolutely terrible from a spectators point of view. Endgame PvP is just two blobs with lasers everywhere for 20 seconds until someone wins, endgame PvT is ghosts being effective or not followed by 20 seconds of blobs fighting and then going in favor of one of the players. The only variation is when someone tries to all-in early. As a spectator, the fewer protosses in a tournament the more entertaining it is. Now that's where I see that all you really want is terrans advancing because you're biased. Guess that ends the conversation. You clearly don't care about who the better players are. All Terrans advancing isn't as interesting as a good mix of Terrans and Zergs. What I want in a tournament is the best games, and Protoss does not provide that. Protoss is boring to play and worse to watch, painful though it is to state as a former BW Protoss player. I agree with the above sentiment that fewer Protoss pretty much always yields better entertainment from a spectator's point of view. Are you kidding? nothing is more boring than watching Bio and siege tanks.
A) TvZ has every possible unit comp in it.
B) TvP has bio, and no tanks. And that's all it can ever be.
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On April 27 2012 01:44 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 01:30 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 01:25 sc2holar wrote:
If you look at how PvZ is played out nowadays, its actually Zerg who is playing the passive, turtle up to infestor broodlord "Deathball" game most of the time. na, most of the time it's zerg who tries to overrun Protoss with roach/ling and/or mutalisks prehive and only on maps on which the Protoss third is very safe (like Enombed Valley) it becomes a BL/Infestor/Corruptor turtle game. yeah, and when Zerg does roach/ling all-ins its "solid play" but when toss does a 2base gateway all-in he's a "lololol 2baser n00b", amirite?
nope, when Protoss does 2base allins, they do it because nothing else is viable on maps with third bases that are not for free and zerg does roach(/ling) allins against Protoss, because once Protoss is safe on 3base, everything zerg has built in units (roaches, lings, hydralisks, banelings) up to that point becomes useless crap and turtling to Broodlords is often simply not viable.
The matchup is pretty dumb imo, because the roach is way to costefficient and roach, ling, hydras are way to supplyinefficient, which leaves it in this techswitch heavy "unit- and basetrade"-style. Still it's fun to watch and play PvZ.
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On April 27 2012 02:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 01:44 sc2holar wrote:On April 27 2012 01:30 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 01:25 sc2holar wrote:
If you look at how PvZ is played out nowadays, its actually Zerg who is playing the passive, turtle up to infestor broodlord "Deathball" game most of the time. na, most of the time it's zerg who tries to overrun Protoss with roach/ling and/or mutalisks prehive and only on maps on which the Protoss third is very safe (like Enombed Valley) it becomes a BL/Infestor/Corruptor turtle game. yeah, and when Zerg does roach/ling all-ins its "solid play" but when toss does a 2base gateway all-in he's a "lololol 2baser n00b", amirite? nope, when Protoss does 2base allins, they do it because nothing else is viable on maps with third bases that are not for free and zerg does roach(/ling) allins against Protoss, because once Protoss is safe on 3base, everything zerg has built in units (roaches, lings, hydralisks, banelings) up to that point becomes useless crap and turtling to Broodlords is often simply not viable. The matchup is pretty dumb imo, because the roach is way to costefficient and roach, ling, hydras are way to supplyinefficient, which leaves it in this techswitch heavy "unit- and basetrade"-style. Still it's fun to watch and play PvZ.
Pretty much agree with this, altough i think there are several options that Zerg hasnt really learned to utilize yet (such as mid-game baneling drops to take out mineral lines and keep protoss contained)
Roach Ling Hydra actually becomes a pretty deadly composition if you engage anywhere else than at the protoss choke. Ive seen Protoss players who get a "safe" 3rd base lose to hydra/roach doomdrops many times. Even if the protoss cleans up the army, he usualy loses most of his production buildings (and his main nexus) wich means that Zerg can rebuild his army way faster than the protoss and kill him with a second attack.
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On April 27 2012 01:57 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 01:44 sc2holar wrote:On April 27 2012 01:30 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 01:25 sc2holar wrote:
If you look at how PvZ is played out nowadays, its actually Zerg who is playing the passive, turtle up to infestor broodlord "Deathball" game most of the time. na, most of the time it's zerg who tries to overrun Protoss with roach/ling and/or mutalisks prehive and only on maps on which the Protoss third is very safe (like Enombed Valley) it becomes a BL/Infestor/Corruptor turtle game. yeah, and when Zerg does roach/ling all-ins its "solid play" but when toss does a 2base gateway all-in he's a "lololol 2baser n00b", amirite? I don't think he's talking about roach/ling all-ins. Rather three base roach ling 200 food max at 12:30 in-game time.
I think the point is that zerg have the luxury of doing these 200/200 attacks while still being able to turtle up to an infestor broodlord deathball, whereas protoss timing attacks are "allin" because you can't recover as easily from them if you don't outright kill the zerg. But it is true modern pvz revolved around the protoss setting up different timings to kill the zerg before broodlord/infestor deathball.
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On April 26 2012 19:19 zerglingrodeo wrote:Disagree. I do not think that Wolf really has anything to add to Artosis. Artosis is an analyst, and needs someone for lighter commentary and humor. Tasteless is great at that!
If Wolf and Artosis has the time to gel, they will become greater than Tastosis many times over...
I think nobody ever remembers the first few times before Tastosis actually became the casting archon. Their partnership was horrible and Tasteless always repreminding Artosis for interrupting the intro. I personally feel that Tasteless somesort of felt threatened by Artosis, that was why he behaved that way.
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On April 27 2012 02:04 krell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 00:30 sc2holar wrote:On April 27 2012 00:27 forsooth wrote:On April 27 2012 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 23:52 Derez wrote:On April 26 2012 23:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 22:56 vthree wrote:
Do Protoss players have selective memory. Why are People saying that
there hasn't been a p>t ro8 in so long when it happened LAST season. And
MADNESS? It occurs just as much as p>t ro8 seasons... It was called GomTvT for a reason. Nothing was worse than GomTvT. People could stay in Code S for seasons on a single matchup. As Artosis says - the best players atm are playing protoss and I agree. There's exceptions but overall there's a sick good protoss lineup of players who are sick good overall. Doesn't change the fact that TvT is a great match-up, while any match-up involving protoss ends up in a massive AoE fest that's absolutely terrible from a spectators point of view. Endgame PvP is just two blobs with lasers everywhere for 20 seconds until someone wins, endgame PvT is ghosts being effective or not followed by 20 seconds of blobs fighting and then going in favor of one of the players. The only variation is when someone tries to all-in early. As a spectator, the fewer protosses in a tournament the more entertaining it is. Now that's where I see that all you really want is terrans advancing because you're biased. Guess that ends the conversation. You clearly don't care about who the better players are. All Terrans advancing isn't as interesting as a good mix of Terrans and Zergs. What I want in a tournament is the best games, and Protoss does not provide that. Protoss is boring to play and worse to watch, painful though it is to state as a former BW Protoss player. I agree with the above sentiment that fewer Protoss pretty much always yields better entertainment from a spectator's point of view. Are you kidding? nothing is more boring than watching Bio and siege tanks. A) TvZ has every possible unit comp in it. B) TvP has bio, and no tanks. And that's all it can ever be.
what? TvZ has not.
I have yet to see the role of hydralisks against Terran and roaches are only viable against Thorbased mech. And even then they have a limited timing window. The role of roaches in TvZ is basically the same as Tanks against Protoss. You can build some early on for certain timing attacks or extra safety and you can keep on building them if your opponents composition allows for it (Stalkerbased for Tanks, Thor/Hellionbased for roaches).
Also add to that list BCs and Ravens and also to a lesser extend reapers.
TvZ has just as many flaws as TvP...
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On April 27 2012 02:04 krell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 00:30 sc2holar wrote:On April 27 2012 00:27 forsooth wrote:On April 27 2012 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 23:52 Derez wrote:On April 26 2012 23:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 22:56 vthree wrote:
Do Protoss players have selective memory. Why are People saying that
there hasn't been a p>t ro8 in so long when it happened LAST season. And
MADNESS? It occurs just as much as p>t ro8 seasons... It was called GomTvT for a reason. Nothing was worse than GomTvT. People could stay in Code S for seasons on a single matchup. As Artosis says - the best players atm are playing protoss and I agree. There's exceptions but overall there's a sick good protoss lineup of players who are sick good overall. Doesn't change the fact that TvT is a great match-up, while any match-up involving protoss ends up in a massive AoE fest that's absolutely terrible from a spectators point of view. Endgame PvP is just two blobs with lasers everywhere for 20 seconds until someone wins, endgame PvT is ghosts being effective or not followed by 20 seconds of blobs fighting and then going in favor of one of the players. The only variation is when someone tries to all-in early. As a spectator, the fewer protosses in a tournament the more entertaining it is. Now that's where I see that all you really want is terrans advancing because you're biased. Guess that ends the conversation. You clearly don't care about who the better players are. All Terrans advancing isn't as interesting as a good mix of Terrans and Zergs. What I want in a tournament is the best games, and Protoss does not provide that. Protoss is boring to play and worse to watch, painful though it is to state as a former BW Protoss player. I agree with the above sentiment that fewer Protoss pretty much always yields better entertainment from a spectator's point of view. Are you kidding? nothing is more boring than watching Bio and siege tanks. A) TvZ has every possible unit comp in it. B) TvP has bio, and no tanks. And that's all it can ever be.
May be a little biased, but we need less Protoss to ensure a high quality tournament from spectators' view at least.
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On April 27 2012 02:04 krell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 00:30 sc2holar wrote:On April 27 2012 00:27 forsooth wrote:On April 27 2012 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 23:52 Derez wrote:On April 26 2012 23:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 22:56 vthree wrote:
Do Protoss players have selective memory. Why are People saying that
there hasn't been a p>t ro8 in so long when it happened LAST season. And
MADNESS? It occurs just as much as p>t ro8 seasons... It was called GomTvT for a reason. Nothing was worse than GomTvT. People could stay in Code S for seasons on a single matchup. As Artosis says - the best players atm are playing protoss and I agree. There's exceptions but overall there's a sick good protoss lineup of players who are sick good overall. Doesn't change the fact that TvT is a great match-up, while any match-up involving protoss ends up in a massive AoE fest that's absolutely terrible from a spectators point of view. Endgame PvP is just two blobs with lasers everywhere for 20 seconds until someone wins, endgame PvT is ghosts being effective or not followed by 20 seconds of blobs fighting and then going in favor of one of the players. The only variation is when someone tries to all-in early. As a spectator, the fewer protosses in a tournament the more entertaining it is. Now that's where I see that all you really want is terrans advancing because you're biased. Guess that ends the conversation. You clearly don't care about who the better players are. All Terrans advancing isn't as interesting as a good mix of Terrans and Zergs. What I want in a tournament is the best games, and Protoss does not provide that. Protoss is boring to play and worse to watch, painful though it is to state as a former BW Protoss player. I agree with the above sentiment that fewer Protoss pretty much always yields better entertainment from a spectator's point of view. Are you kidding? nothing is more boring than watching Bio and siege tanks. A) TvZ has every possible unit comp in it. B) TvP has bio, and no tanks. And that's all it can ever be.
lol, TvZ is pretty much the most static matchup when it comes to unit compositions. 9 times out of then Terran opens with some sort of reactor hellion into bio siege tanks with vikings and ghosts in the late game, and Zerg pretty much always go ling/bling/muta into broodlords.
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On April 27 2012 00:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 00:27 forsooth wrote:On April 27 2012 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 23:52 Derez wrote:On April 26 2012 23:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 26 2012 22:56 vthree wrote:
Do Protoss players have selective memory. Why are People saying that
there hasn't been a p>t ro8 in so long when it happened LAST season. And
MADNESS? It occurs just as much as p>t ro8 seasons... It was called GomTvT for a reason. Nothing was worse than GomTvT. People could stay in Code S for seasons on a single matchup. As Artosis says - the best players atm are playing protoss and I agree. There's exceptions but overall there's a sick good protoss lineup of players who are sick good overall. Doesn't change the fact that TvT is a great match-up, while any match-up involving protoss ends up in a massive AoE fest that's absolutely terrible from a spectators point of view. Endgame PvP is just two blobs with lasers everywhere for 20 seconds until someone wins, endgame PvT is ghosts being effective or not followed by 20 seconds of blobs fighting and then going in favor of one of the players. The only variation is when someone tries to all-in early. As a spectator, the fewer protosses in a tournament the more entertaining it is. Now that's where I see that all you really want is terrans advancing because you're biased. Guess that ends the conversation. You clearly don't care about who the better players are. All Terrans advancing isn't as interesting as a good mix of Terrans and Zergs. What I want in a tournament is the best games, and Protoss does not provide that. Protoss is boring to play and worse to watch, painful though it is to state as a former BW Protoss player. I agree with the above sentiment that fewer Protoss pretty much always yields better entertainment from a spectator's point of view. The "best games" as you call it are games where the best players, regardless of their race, display the best skill with what they have at their disposal. Your argument is horribly biased. If you think that TvZ is entertaining then fine, go watch TvZ. That's your opinion and has absolutely nothing to do with balance or general entertainment.
That's an exceptionally flawed way of looking at things because it assumes that all the races are well designed and interact with each other in interesting and dynamic ways. If the design of one or all of them sucks, it doesn't matter if you have the best players in the world practice them to death and use them to their fullest potential. The design has to be good to begin with. I feel, as I have felt since I first picked up SC2 and started playing Protoss and started watching GSL, that Protoss is neither well designed on its own or in the way it works in the vT and vZ matchups. That's why SC2 is more entertaining when Protoss is absent, and I think that's a shame.
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EPT
