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Everyone knows the drill by now. Keep it manner and have a good time. We'll be watching along with you. | ||
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Mystgun
Hong Kong311 Posts
- A good stockpile of resources - Plenty of production facilities - Medivacs still alive PartinG's army was barely at MKP's natural. He had a warp prism on top of his ramp, but he was very low on resources anyway. I agree that PartinG was in a better position but definitely not one where he can just outright win the game. What would've been a nice compromise is to have them play a mini BO3 with PartinG taking the first match. | ||
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Fizzy
Sweden388 Posts
On April 09 2012 19:23 Zealot Orgy wrote: Plenty of opportunities to defeat MKP and failed? THEY DID IT AT THE FIRST ATTEMPT. MKP would have been eliminated, StarTale would have been up 3-1 with Parting in play and MKP out. Easy win from StarTale and none would have complained. The "well they didn't stop MKP anyways so..." excuse is retarded because MKP did fucking lose to Parting. Sorry but no, they didnt defeat them... the judges ruled for a rematch because the game was not at a point where it would be fair to rule in someones favor and therefor they went to the default ruling - a rematch. I wanted StarTale to win just as much as you did, but i also want MKP to get the attention he deserves because: - He is an amazing player - A great individual - Young and has lots of potential - Has a smoking hot older sister anyho, haters gonna hate... dont blame MKP or Prime, if anything blame the judges, Peace out | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
just to tell you the overall situation: parting wins a close battle and ends up 30 supply ahead with a small group of units at the border of MKPs base. He has 6 Stalker and 8 zealots there. The Rest of his army is in his own base (because he has no warp in pylon anywhere near the combat zone). Parting has a bank of 200minerals and 600 gas. Marineking however has nearly 20baracks where a ton of units will come out very soon. enough to be able to clean up those units in his base or at least force a retreat. He is ahead in bases and bank. Sorry guys, but everyone who sees a clear winner in THIS situation has absolutely no idea of this game. Parting has a lead, yes, but it's not even this big to really talk about a default win for him. He has such little income, that he can't even afford a real colossus production. No way he can end this game very soon. The situation would even out in the next minute and the fight would've gone on. To declare Parting as the winner of this game would've been the biggest misjudgement in SC2 history. I have absolutely no understanding for this drama and can fully understand Gerrards comment in his post match interview. If anybody really thinks, that this is worth a default win for parting, I don't know, maybe he should start watch Day9 Dailies to start getting some game understanding! | ||
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corpsepose
1678 Posts
On April 10 2012 06:24 TeeTS wrote: OK, I followed the discussions about this game in question for the past 2 days. Now I finally found time to watch the VOD. I just has to ask all people here demanding: ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS????? just to tell you the overall situation: parting wins a close battle and ends up 30 supply ahead with a small group of units at the border of MKPs base. He has 6 Stalker and 8 zealots there. The Rest of his army is in his own base (because he has no warp in pylon anywhere near the combat zone). Parting has a bank of 200minerals and 600 gas. Marineking however has nearly 20baracks where a ton of units will come out very soon. enough to be able to clean up those units in his base or at least force a retreat. He is ahead in bases and bank. Sorry guys, but everyone who sees a clear winner in THIS situation has absolutely no idea of this game. Parting has a lead, yes, but it's not even this big to really talk about a default win for him. He has such little income, that he can't even afford a real colossus production. No way he can end this game very soon. The situation would even out in the next minute and the fight would've gone on. To declare Parting as the winner of this game would've been the biggest misjudgement in SC2 history. I have absolutely no understanding for this drama and can fully understand Gerrards comment in his post match interview. If anybody really thinks, that this is worth a default win for parting, I don't know, maybe he should start watch Day9 Dailies to start getting some game understanding! parting had a warp prism to instantly reinforce with.. he didnt need a pylon and he had high templar as well as stalker zealot | ||
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Mystgun
Hong Kong311 Posts
On April 10 2012 06:27 corpsepose wrote: parting had a warp prism to instantly reinforce with.. he didnt need a pylon and he had high templar as well as stalker zealot One can find the Chinese stream online and pause at the exact moment where the game disconnected. What you will find is: - There are about 9 zealots and 7 stalkers near MKP's natural, wailing on the 3 rax MKP has up front - PartinG has just warped in a batch of zealots near his third and are advancing towards MKP base - After that warp-in, he has about 100 minerals left - Meanwhile, MKP is producing about 15 infantry units at a time with about 400 minerals left in the bank - There are at least 2 vikings flying around and while I can't say it is going to target down the warp prism, it doesn't have anything else to shoot - MKP's medivacs are still alive There's no way PartinG would've won at that point of the game and everyone who has rewatched the VOD would know it. | ||
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Kettchup
United States1911 Posts
On April 10 2012 05:56 Mystgun wrote: - Medivacs still alive Where are you getting this? I remember all the medivacs being dead and MKP having only 3 marauders and 6 vikings remaining. This would certainly change things. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On April 10 2012 07:05 Kettchup wrote: Where are you getting this? I remember all the medivacs being dead and MKP having only 3 marauders and 6 vikings remaining. This would certainly change things. Not at all. The big mistake people make by judging this situation is, that they don't consider the fact, that protoss has no production queue for their warp gates. Protoss has everything on the map, so after a huge fight, it can be a little bit misleading, when you only consider the army tab, because terran has tons of units right before popping which don't appear there. I won't deny the fact, that parting was ahead , but it was nowhere near a point, where you can definately say, that he has this in the bag. He did not have the best unit composition to finish off MKP. An attack into the main would be sacrificing his lead right away, because zealot archon is just not the right composition to fight in narrow avenues of terran bases. AND MKP had an economical advantage at that point of the game. This comes very much into play, when we want to evaluate the reinforcement rates, that have to be expected in the next couple of minutes of this game. With ALL those facts taken into consideration, I just can't understand how people can unbiased demand a default win for parting. (I understand the ST staff however, because they were in an extremely emotional situation, it's the same like when you see coaches of football (aka soccer in america ^^) teams freak out on completely right referee decisions). | ||
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JujuXG
United States373 Posts
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Kettchup
United States1911 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:40 Kettchup wrote: After looking at the replay, there are 0 medivacs on the field just as I remembered, don't know where Mystgun is pulling things from. You are correct, he had no medivacs at all. The relevant point here is that Parting might not have won immediately, but he was pretty much guaranteed a win in 2 minutes, he had just warped in a ton of high templar and MKP had no long term units like medivacs or ghosts at all, let alone any units that can deal with his 16 zealots and stalkers. Further, MKP can't spend his bank that fast (as evidenced by the fact that he had a bank in the first place, I think we'd all give him the credit and say he wasn't spending it because he didn't have the production, not because his mechanics are terrible) and parting is on 3-4 mining bases (his 5th, 4th and 3rd all have tons of money, his natural had a little mining left), the only reason he doesn't have a bank is that he's actually spending his money well with absurd production rates. Oh yeah? That bank MKP had? He was at 500 minerals. So... parting, who is beating MKP's army all game with a lower suppy count, now has a 30 supply lead with a far superior composition, is macro'ing better, and he isn't going to win in 2 minutes? The only way MKP wins that game is if parting falls out of his chair. Any random NA diamond level player or better could take over from that position and win. BTW, MKP had 71 scvs, 3 marauders and 6 vikings, so we know exactly how much supply of stuff he had in production: 110 supply - 71 - 6 - 12 = 21 supply in production (some of which is in the barracks that Parting is attacking). I don't know where people are getting this idea that MKP would suddenly be able to produce a big enough force to beat Parting in the next minute, what, do they think Parting is gonna stop making units? We also know how much production Parting has available to him, and the fact that Parting is on 3 fully mining bases. His chances of victory were very nearly 0. You can hear Liquid'Nony and TLO shouting Bullshit when they announced the regame (a friend of mine was sitting with them when they yelled it and identified them as the source of the shout), and a lot of tweets from progamers went out at the same time also saying that Parting should have been given the win (like Major, who I don't think anyone would accuse of a bias in favor of the Protoss player). I don't blame MKP or Prime for this situation btw, obviously it's their job to fight for a regame and try to win. Gom screwed over Startale really hard here. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
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Chunhyang
Bangladesh1389 Posts
On April 10 2012 06:18 Fizzy wrote: Sorry but no, they didnt defeat them... the judges ruled for a rematch because the game was not at a point where it would be fair to rule in someones favor and therefor they went to the default ruling - a rematch. I wanted StarTale to win just as much as you did, but i also want MKP to get the attention he deserves because: - He is an amazing player - A great individual - Young and has lots of potential - Has a smoking hot older sister anyho, haters gonna hate... dont blame MKP or Prime, if anything blame the judges, Peace out 1. She looks like MKP. Look closely. 2. People insist on blaming Prime and their excuse is that Prime should have given up the game. That's crap. Even they know it. Some are making up conspiracy theories that GOM wanted Prime to win and fixed it. That's bull. Everyone knows that. But it's not satisfying for them to just blame the judges, they need to blame Prime to detract from their win. Shows you the crab mentality they have. Avoid these people in any work environment. 3. I fully expect a recap by Fionn later this week to stir this up again. He was very much in favor of awarding the match in favor of Parting, and couldn't keep himself from repeatedly commenting on it. I doubt he'll be able to keep himself from subtly plastering this opinion all over the recap, should he write it. | ||
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
Overall, I think the regame was the correct choice 100%. Tourneys should always favor the regame to a decision unless the choice to overwhelmingly obvious. In this case, you could make an argument for or against, therefore I believe that the regame was completely correct. If they had chosen a winner one way or another, people would be throwing a much bigger fit on both sides. At least with a regame you still have a chance. Remember the TSL3 regame? It was a worse position for the Protoss in that game and there was still a huge fuss. When there is a question, I tend to appreciate when the tourney sides with the regame. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On April 10 2012 05:56 Mystgun wrote: When game 4 was dropped, MKP was only at a slight disadvantage. Khaldor / Wolf mentioned that MKP only had 3 marauders left against a sizeable army of stalkers/zealots, but MKP still had a few things going for him: - A good stockpile of resources - Plenty of production facilities - Medivacs still alive PartinG's army was barely at MKP's natural. He had a warp prism on top of his ramp, but he was very low on resources anyway. I agree that PartinG was in a better position but definitely not one where he can just outright win the game. What would've been a nice compromise is to have them play a mini BO3 with PartinG taking the first match. He had NO medivacs. His bank has already been depleted, he was sitting on 500 mins or so with 20 supply in production. | ||
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Soapdrop
United States7 Posts
When the disconnect happened, Parting had a ground army value of 4450, while MKP had a ground army value of 375 (unless you want to count 6 ground Vikings lol). Knowing that MKP had 21 supply queued in production, one can reasonably estimate 1500-2000 army value from that production. Let's be generous and say that it puts his army value at 2500 once the units pop. Protoss armies are most cost efficient when engaging as a death ball with AOE, which means that MKP could not make a comeback with a direct engagement with an army of half the size. And at the point of the disconnect, MKP only had 200 more minerals more than Parting. That's hardly a bank, and Terrans can't spend gas as effectively as Protoss can with making Archons. So MKP was nowhere near making a comparable army to Parting's. A lot of Terran comebacks from being behind are based around avoiding direct engagements use drop harass to prevent the direct engagement or pick off small packs of Protoss units that weren't in the death ball. However, MKP didn't have any medivacs. So the only way for MKP to make a comeback is if Parting backed off and let him, which seems like nearly zero considering how aggressive Parting was when the disconnect happened. The interesting question is, when did MKP's keyboard start acting up? If it acted up a minute before the actual disconnect happened, then the regame becomes fair or even in StarTale's favor, because it would explain why Parting suddenly turned things around. Did anyone look at the replay to see if there was a sudden drop in APM near the end? | ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
On April 10 2012 16:22 Soapdrop wrote: I hope Blizzard implements reconnect in the next patch, so that this never happens again. When the disconnect happened, Parting had a ground army value of 4450, while MKP had a ground army value of 375 (unless you want to count 6 ground Vikings lol). Knowing that MKP had 21 supply queued in production, one can reasonably estimate 1500-2000 army value from that production. Let's be generous and say that it puts his army value at 2500 once the units pop. Protoss armies are most cost efficient when engaging as a death ball with AOE, which means that MKP could not make a comeback with a direct engagement with an army of half the size. And at the point of the disconnect, MKP only had 200 more minerals more than Parting. That's hardly a bank, and Terrans can't spend gas as effectively as Protoss can with making Archons. So MKP was nowhere near making a comparable army to Parting's. A lot of Terran comebacks from being behind are based around avoiding direct engagements use drop harass to prevent the direct engagement or pick off small packs of Protoss units that weren't in the death ball. However, MKP didn't have any medivacs. So the only way for MKP to make a comeback is if Parting backed off and let him, which seems like nearly zero considering how aggressive Parting was when the disconnect happened. The interesting question is, when did MKP's keyboard start acting up? If it acted up a minute before the actual disconnect happened, then the regame becomes fair or even in StarTale's favor, because it would explain why Parting suddenly turned things around. Did anyone look at the replay to see if there was a sudden drop in APM near the end? Did he have keyboard problems? I thought that was just Nestea in his series vs Squirtle the next day | ||
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Bismillah
69 Posts
On April 10 2012 11:46 RavenLoud wrote: He had NO medivacs. His bank has already been depleted, he was sitting on 500 mins or so with 20 supply in production. This statement here is the most key aspect of the entire thing. The bank was depleted and parting was up 30 supply and KEEP IN MIND units in terran production count TOWARDS your current supply. So besides being 30 down, a good amount of said supply was still being produced in barracks anyways. The bank was effectively depleted. Haven't you guys seen the army supply graph, how it plummet for mkp at the end? Anyone that looks at their post-game graphs knows that's what it looks like when the game is over. In fact, that army supply graph makes it seem like the game wasn't even interrupted whatsoever - it looks like any normal game that had just come to an end. Granted, because parting's army wasn't entirely at MKPs base, he may not have won immediately, the position was basically unrecoverable. I don't think the regame was a bad choice especially considering that MKP was ahead almost the entire game before that point anyways so the game as a whole was very close, but I still think that the disconnect happened about 30 seconds after the "turning point" at which point we could tell parting was about to win, and about 5 seconds after we could be fairly certain parting would win. | ||
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Mlex
Canada324 Posts
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On April 10 2012 16:58 Bismillah wrote: This statement here is the most key aspect of the entire thing. The bank was depleted and parting was up 30 supply and KEEP IN MIND units in terran production count TOWARDS your current supply. So besides being 30 down, a good amount of said supply was still being produced in barracks anyways. The bank was effectively depleted. Haven't you guys seen the army supply graph, how it plummet for mkp at the end? Anyone that looks at their post-game graphs knows that's what it looks like when the game is over. In fact, that army supply graph makes it seem like the game wasn't even interrupted whatsoever - it looks like any normal game that had just come to an end. Granted, because parting's army wasn't entirely at MKPs base, he may not have won immediately, the position was basically unrecoverable. I don't think the regame was a bad choice especially considering that MKP was ahead almost the entire game before that point anyways so the game as a whole was very close, but I still think that the disconnect happened about 30 seconds after the "turning point" at which point we could tell parting was about to win, and about 5 seconds after we could be fairly certain parting would win. the army value graph doesn't consider units in production. that's what I'm talking about! yes parting was ahead, nobody denies that! The question is not if parting was ahead or not. The question is, was parting so far ahead to justify a default win, which would mean, that there is nearly no chance for him losing that game. And the answer here HAS to be no, and to say that the referees decided in their way because of the crowd and fans at home, is just an impudence. If we look back at an incident that was very similar to that, we see nothing but consistency in the GOM refs decisions. Look at first game between MVP and Dimaga on Taldarim Altar at the GSL World Cup Allstar Showmatch last year (VOD is free for all if you want to check). The game went very similar to the game between MKP and Parting. Dimaga was in a great position for most of the game, but MVP got further and further ahead before they had a DC. At the point of the DC MVP was in such a strong position (better eco, controlled the center of the map with PFs, etc.) that you would've said, that Dimaga only had little chances to win there. but there was an instant rematch without any doubts or drama. Well you can say, that it was only a showmatch, but the thing is: A rematch has to be the standard case, if ha Disconnect happens. ONLY if it is absolutely clear, that one player is in a position where he can not lose, a default win is the right choice. GOM has several ex Pro Gamer as judges to clarify if that's the case. They took their time and made the right choice. | ||
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Disengaged
United States6994 Posts
Lol | ||
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