EPT[GSTL] 2012 Season 1 Grand Finals - Page 489
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Everyone knows the drill by now. Keep it manner and have a good time. We'll be watching along with you. | ||
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synaptik
Canada644 Posts
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Cracked
41 Posts
On April 09 2012 06:26 HolyArrow wrote: Well, we're entering more philosophical territory here. I personally reject the argument that "the finals were the finals, we followed the rules", as justification for why the victory wasn't tainted, because, the bottom line is that MKP and Prime highly benefited from MKP lagging out, and MKP lagging out has nothing to do with Prime being a better team than ST or MKP being a better player than Parting (which are the only factors that should have been relevant to Prime's victory). Just because the rules are followed doesn't mean that injustices can't happen. As I said before (check out my edit), the re-game is simply the lesser of two evils; or rather, the lesser of two injustices. If you accept that, then you must acknowledge that there was indeed "injustice" in Prime's win, and if we define an untainted win as one free of "injustice", then Prime's win can't be considered untainted. I actually really like this post. I'm sure it's a similar argument that most people have regarding this event, but posted in a very eloquent manner. My question to you would be - since you consider both decisions to be injustices, would you feel that it would've been a "tainted" victory for Startale if they had managed to win after MKP was given a default loss? Similar arguments could apply - that is, other Prime players had their opportunity to take down Startale but didn't end up doing so. Their mentality was crushed by losing MKP to a default etc. etc. If you said that the re-game is the lesser injustice of the two decisions, then StarTale's subsequent win would've been even more tainted than what it is now - yet, I get the feeling from the majority of posts that ST winning would've been 100% legit. | ||
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Heaton31
United States323 Posts
It's like the whole Bartman thing, he didn't cause the cubs to lose the series. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On April 09 2012 10:51 Cracked wrote: I actually really like this post. I'm sure it's a similar argument that most people have regarding this event, but posted in a very eloquent manner. My question to you would be - since you consider both decisions to be injustices, would you feel that it would've been a "tainted" victory for Startale if they had managed to win after MKP was given a default loss? Similar arguments could apply - that is, other Prime players had their opportunity to take down Startale but didn't end up doing so. Their mentality was crushed by losing MKP to a default etc. etc. If you said that the re-game is the lesser injustice of the two decisions, then StarTale's subsequent win would've been even more tainted than what it is now - yet, I get the feeling from the majority of posts that ST winning would've been 100% legit. I feel that it would have been less tainted because my personal opinion is that Parting was in a very dominant position. If they had awarded Parting the win, I would have felt like MKP was deprived of the chance to try to come back from an extremely precarious position, but I think that Parting winning from that position would have been extremely likely. Thus, the "taintedness", I guess you could say, would have been to a lesser extent, but yes, it wouldn't have been a 100% legitimate victory for Startale. I also feel like it would have negatively affected Prime's mentality far less than the regame decision affected ST's mentality because it looked extremely likely that MKP would lose anyway. It's the difference between having a game taken from you when you expect to win versus having a game taken from you when you expect to lose. Consider what I said earler: MKP and Prime highly benefited from MKP lagging out. This benefit is derived from the fact that Parting was in a dominant position and MKP was given a second chance. Let's consider an alternate reality where Parting is awarded the win. Then, did Startale benefit from MKP lagging out? Sure, because MKP was deprived of the opportunity to attempt a comeback (a comeback, I feel, would be extremely unlikely given the state of the game when MKP lagged out, but, again, that's been discussed to death and I don't want to go into that territory). However, the extent to which they benefited is far less than the extent to which Prime benefited from the regame, and the larger the benefit, the more "tainted" the victory is. I'd also like to clarify this specific point: "If you said that the re-game is the lesser injustice of the two decisions, then StarTale's subsequent win would've been even more tainted than what it is now" I personally do not think that the regame was the lesser injustice. I would have preferred to see Parting handed the win because I personally believe he was in an extremely dominant position. When I spoke of the regame being the "lesser injustice", I was putting myself into the shoes of the referees (sorry if that wasn't clear). I acknowledge the legitimacy of the argument that a regame should be done as long as victory isn't 100% assured from one of the parties, but I still disagree with it. There are merits to be had from either viewpoint (regame vs. handing Parting the win) and it would be difficult to actually objectively prove that one decision is better than the other. Hope that all made enough sense  | ||
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CarpetmoOse
United States22 Posts
I feel that it would have been less tainted because my personal opinion is that Parting was in a very dominant position. So PartinG had HT at his base, Zealots and Stalkers at his base. and a Warp Prism surrounded by 6 vikings, and he was in a dominate possition? Can you please explain to me how you're logically thinking this... Especially when their mental thought process when playing is 10000% stronger than ours. Calm Before the Storm is a big map, gives MKP another minute till that army even comes knocking. Just imagine what MKP could pull out within that time with his amazing macro skill. Re-game was the only logical thing to do. And you saw how he ripped through 3 others including squirtle and curious, who aren't names to just shake a stick at. | ||
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StaplerPhone
United States813 Posts
On April 09 2012 13:14 CarpetmoOse wrote: So PartinG had HT at his base, Zealots and Stalkers at his base. and a Warp Prism surrounded by 6 vikings, and he was in a dominate possition? Can you please explain to me how you're logically thinking this... Especially when their mental thought process when playing is 10000% stronger than ours. Calm Before the Storm is a big map, gives MKP another minute till that army even comes knocking. Just imagine what MKP could pull out within that time with his amazing macro skill. Re-game was the only logical thing to do. And you saw how he ripped through 3 others including squirtle and curious, who aren't names to just shake a stick at. In the game versus Squirtle and Curious he was never really behind, and they have nothing to do with the MKP vs Parting game. The one vs. Bomber had mistakes on both sides and was weird as hell. Obviously you can't count MKP completely out but Parting WAS in a great position to likely win. | ||
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Batisterio-PiB
Brazil219 Posts
On April 09 2012 13:14 CarpetmoOse wrote: So PartinG had HT at his base, Zealots and Stalkers at his base. and a Warp Prism surrounded by 6 vikings, and he was in a dominate possition? Can you please explain to me how you're logically thinking this... Especially when their mental thought process when playing is 10000% stronger than ours. Calm Before the Storm is a big map, gives MKP another minute till that army even comes knocking. Just imagine what MKP could pull out within that time with his amazing macro skill. Re-game was the only logical thing to do. And you saw how he ripped through 3 others including squirtle and curious, who aren't names to just shake a stick at. MKP had just 3 marauder | ||
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Jisall
United States2054 Posts
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foxmulder_ms
United States140 Posts
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discw
United States122 Posts
On April 09 2012 10:52 Heaton31 wrote: How ever you want to look at it, ST had plenty of opportunities to defeat MKP and failed. The MKP vs. Parting match wasn't the final game. It's like the whole Bartman thing, he didn't cause the cubs to lose the series. Bartman didn't even cause the cubs to lose that game, not the best example. | ||
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Grackula
133 Posts
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Zealot Orgy
United Kingdom537 Posts
On April 09 2012 10:52 Heaton31 wrote: How ever you want to look at it, ST had plenty of opportunities to defeat MKP and failed. The MKP vs. Parting match wasn't the final game. It's like the whole Bartman thing, he didn't cause the cubs to lose the series. Plenty of opportunities to defeat MKP and failed? THEY DID IT AT THE FIRST ATTEMPT. MKP would have been eliminated, StarTale would have been up 3-1 with Parting in play and MKP out. Easy win from StarTale and none would have complained. The "well they didn't stop MKP anyways so..." excuse is retarded because MKP did fucking lose to Parting. | ||
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noddy
United Kingdom927 Posts
On April 09 2012 19:23 Zealot Orgy wrote: Plenty of opportunities to defeat MKP and failed? THEY DID IT AT THE FIRST ATTEMPT. MKP would have been eliminated, StarTale would have been up 3-1 with Parting in play and MKP out. Easy win from StarTale and none would have complained. The "well they didn't stop MKP anyways so..." excuse is retarded because MKP did fucking lose to Parting. This is strange considering Liquidpedia says MarineKing won and MarineKing went on to 4-0 the StarTale team. Heh  Even if MarineKing was eliminated, Creator and Byun are far and away better than anyone on the StarTale team. | ||
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
On April 09 2012 19:23 Zealot Orgy wrote: Plenty of opportunities to defeat MKP and failed? THEY DID IT AT THE FIRST ATTEMPT. MKP would have been eliminated, StarTale would have been up 3-1 with Parting in play and MKP out. Easy win from StarTale and none would have complained. The "well they didn't stop MKP anyways so..." excuse is retarded because MKP did fucking lose to Parting. If marineking had lost that game, and parting had been defeated by creator or byun, the series would have probably ended the same way (prime win) because i feel like parting is by far the best player on ST. | ||
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KaRath_
Australia245 Posts
A championship for Prime wouldn't be just another trophy to put on a shelf, but a symbol for how they've come. MarineKing, the player who was once known for choking and falling apart in his booth, has finally become the player that everyone had always hoped he would turn into. With his confidence at the highest it's ever been, two MLG titles under his belt, and a chance to bring a title to his team, this is the time for MarineKing to have the crowning achievement of his career I didn't watch the matches (but from what I see, most people have a legitimate reason for being irked about Parting having to replay). Did Startale actually complain about the ruling? (actual question) Personally, Prime won, and I'm happy. Sorry if you're a supporter of ST and feel like you've been cheated out of a victory, but there always has to be a winner and a loser, and unfortunately ST lost today Really happy that MKP was the player that 4-killed and won the GSTL, he seriously deserves it, sticking with Prime all this time | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
I still think that PartinG had this game won though and while MKP does have insane macro and micro, people who argue this just make it sound like he's so good at it that it could make a difference against a freakin BEAST like Parting in such a dominant position. And that's just not the case in my opinion because PartinG has some pretty damn good mechanics himself and even if his warp prism gets sniped, he still has 18 zealots and more against 3 marauders and 6 vikings. No matter what pops out of the barracks or when, I don't see a way for MKP to win that game or even hold Parting's attack. But that's just how I see it and I hope the referees had a better look at it and know better. | ||
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Usagi
Spain1647 Posts
On April 09 2012 19:41 KaRath_ wrote: Did Startale actually complain about the ruling? (actual question) No idea if they made an actual complaint afterwards, but Startale coach and manager looked very angry as they were told it was a regame. | ||
Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
They need to have a better solution to a disconnection occurring past early-game. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On April 09 2012 23:02 Inflicted_ wrote: I feel like regames should never occur in a team-league as well. It assumes that the better player will win each game, but it also ignores the fact that snipers and specific strategies are prepared for matches, and having a regame - especially that LATE into a game - is really unfair. They need to have a better solution to a disconnection occurring past early-game. ok than bring up this better solution. Because the "referee declares the player, who is ahead, to be the winner" assumes, that a player, being ahead, doesn't make any mistakes to give away his lead. ofc. this does never happen I know... OH WAIT! | ||
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Tsuycc
Canada269 Posts
On April 09 2012 19:23 Zealot Orgy wrote: Plenty of opportunities to defeat MKP and failed? THEY DID IT AT THE FIRST ATTEMPT. MKP would have been eliminated, StarTale would have been up 3-1 with Parting in play and MKP out. Easy win from StarTale and none would have complained. The "well they didn't stop MKP anyways so..." excuse is retarded because MKP did fucking lose to Parting. Easy win for startale? why is everyone looking over Byun and Creator, there were the ones who defeated startale in the Ro8 when startale was up 3-0 the better team won, that's that | ||
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