On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
This.
I dislike Stephano's recent behavior, but that doesn't mean people have the right to twist his results like that.
Aemilia, you're a devoted Stephano hater. Don't deny it because you have been at this for your entire time on TL. You're dedicated to it in the same way that IdrA haters are dedicated to bashing him whenever the opportunity arises.
It's okay to be against hype, and Stephano does deserve a lot of the criticism flying his way, but the way you make your arguments is outside the boundaries of neutrality.
Stephano doesn't have a winning record vs. top Koreans, but he does not have an awful record when put alongside other foreigners and lower level Koreans. Other than HuK and Naniwa, there are few that are able to be mentioned in the same breath.
He's the only ZERG (and not protoss, terran excpet kas or thorzain are way behind in term of results) with a good record vs Koreans. its something people tend to forget.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
MarineKing holds that all day long taking fast thirds. Stephano got raped. Accept it.
On April 05 2012 17:05 LeLfe wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:43 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:45 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:30 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
I don't include meaningless tournaments for a couple of grand where people are playing at 5am.
LAN's or major online tournaments only.
And ESWC was six months ago.
See the post below you where someone corrects your list. Also you should probably delete the MC and MKP losses since Stephano was badly hungover at the time. Further why are you including his loss against Jjakji? It was online and played cross server.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
Um, no. Hero does not have "possibly the best PvZ in the world", not even close. Even Nerchio beat Hero, and Violet frequently defeats him too. I struggle to even remember the last time Hero had an impressive win against a top tier Korean zerg. Stephano beating him is not some great feat. You're overrating his wins immensely. Similar for JYP, and they were just practice games...If you're going to list his wins at least be realistic about them.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
It's not remotely selective but Iron Squid is a Premier Tournament (as outlined by Liquipedia). I used it for the same reason I'd use a TSL. That is not me declaring it a Premier Tournament, that is Team Liquid's staff.
Counting pre 2012 games is ridiculous, they're not even played on the current patch and are way too dated to be relevant.
But if you want to include only Premier Tournaments, or only LAN tournaments he still has a comfortably losing record vs Koreans.
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
MarineKing holds that all day long taking fast thirds. Stephano got raped. Accept it.
On April 05 2012 17:05 LeLfe wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:43 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:45 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:30 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
I don't include meaningless tournaments for a couple of grand where people are playing at 5am.
LAN's or major online tournaments only.
And ESWC was six months ago.
See the post below you where someone corrects your list. Also you should probably delete the MC and MKP losses since Stephano was badly hungover at the time. Further why are you including his loss against Jjakji? It was online and played cross server.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
Phoenix and TypeReal are not middle-tier, they are extreme low-tier. They are not Code A worthy players and I wouldn't favor them in a ESV Korean Weekly either.
The Zenio win is nice, but you have to give me more than a ZvZ victory to convince me that Stephano can match against the top Korean players (which Zenio is not).
Puma's TvZ is frankly crappy when compared to his contemporaries. His Korean TLPD speaks for itself.
Stephano was able to beat Polt after studying his playstyle, and Polt was equally as stubborn for sticking to the same few builds. Stephano would be hard-pressed to pull the same trick on a player like MarineKing, who is far more flexible with build orders.
Dongraegu is not the best ZvZ player in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity.
Hero is not the best PvZ player in the world and never was.
JYP does not have the best PvZ in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity. I imagine the people who believe that have scant evidence to prove it.
On April 06 2012 01:34 Bagration wrote: It never fails. Anytime Stephano plays, the LR threads always explode in debates on his ability to hold with top Koreans :p
You ought to make some IPL4 bets. What are the odds that a Stephano argument will break out before his group finishes?
On April 06 2012 01:34 Bagration wrote: It never fails. Anytime Stephano plays, the LR threads always explode in debates on his ability to hold with top Koreans :p
You ought to make some IPL4 bets. What are the odds that a Stephano argument will break out before his group finishes?
First game of MKP vs Stephano, where MKP destroys stephano with a 2 rax. Which will be seen as a "cheesy rush" and mkp is obviously incapable of defeating stephano in the lategame because he "fears it"
On April 06 2012 01:34 Bagration wrote: It never fails. Anytime Stephano plays, the LR threads always explode in debates on his ability to hold with top Koreans :p
You ought to make some IPL4 bets. What are the odds that a Stephano argument will break out before his group finishes?
1:1000 or basically 99.9% chance. It's basically certain to happen. Likewise with Idra
He practices about 1/3 as much as a typical Korean and plays against far, far worse competition and yet performs on a Code S level according to me (and Polt, Nestea, MVP, etc.). This is the mark of someone extremely special. There are a couple of "genius" level players in Korea but it's more difficult to detect where talent ends and hard work begins when you're practicing 12-14 hours a day.
Edit: I should have said "practices" instead of "plays" above.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
Phoenix and TypeReal are not middle-tier, they are extreme low-tier. They are not Code A worthy players and I wouldn't favor them in a ESV Korean Weekly either.
The Zenio win is nice, but you have to give me more than a ZvZ victory to convince me that Stephano can match against the top Korean players (which Zenio is not).
Puma's TvZ is frankly crappy when compared to his contemporaries. His Korean TLPD speaks for itself.
Stephano was able to beat Polt after studying his playstyle, and Polt was equally as stubborn for sticking to the same few builds. Stephano would be hard-pressed to pull the same trick on a player like MarineKing, who is far more flexible with build orders.
Dongraegu is not the best ZvZ player in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity.
Hero is not the best PvZ player in the world and never was.
JYP does not have the best PvZ in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity. I imagine the people who believe that have scant evidence to prove it.
Yes, you are being hyperbolic.
1. Zenio is a top tier zerg. He's in code S and there are only 7 or 8 zegs in Code S total at the moment. ZvZ is one of his better match ups and he lost 2-0 to Stephano. Zenio actually has a higher Elo than DRG in the match up (in Korea) and is #3 overall. 2. Your opinions as to who is the best or worse in a match up are pretty meaningless (as mine are), among other reasons, because you're a nobody and you appear to be a bit of a dope (and I'm not saying that just because we don't agree on this issue but rather because of an apparent complete inability to argue your points effectively, based on your posts in this forum and others). Objectively, JYP and Hero are better against Z than either MC or Parting, e.g., based on their Korean Elos. Along with Genius and Squirtle, JYP is definitely top 3 and I would say Hero is number 4 although there is room for debate here. 3. GSL should hire you to determine who is Code A caliber. I'm writing an unsolicited letter to GSL on your behalf as soon as I'm done posting this. 4. DRG beat Nestea at the GSL and the unofficial crown of King Zerg in zvz passed to him. He has a ridiculous zvz record, but I'm OK with disputing this point; he's not clearly the best in the way that Nestea was before he fell off a bit. Moreover as noted above, his Elo is actually below Zenio's; DRG is definitely top 5 though. 5. My figures are selective but more than sufficient to show how ridiculous many of the statements made in this forum about the level of Stephano's play are. Elo is as objective as it gets in terms of measuring how good you are at the moment on a weighted average basis. You've already lost this argument to the extent you think Stephano is not at least Code S quality. (If you don't think he is, you also would find yourself in disagreement with Nestea, Polt, MVP, MC, etc. on the caliber of his play, but again those are just opinions; facts are facts and his Elo score speaks for itself.) 6. Polt also called Stephano a genius (so I'm not totally alone here) and I think that's a good word to describe someone who puts in so little time and effort and yet achieves so much. He admits to not even watching replays of his losses. How is this guy so good? A: Genius.
He practices about 1/3 as much as a typical Korean and plays against far, far worse competition and yet performs on a Code S level according to me (and Polt, Nestea, MVP, etc.). This is the mark of someone extremely special. There are a couple of "genius" level players in Korea but it's more difficult to detect where talent ends and hard work begins when you're practicing 12-14 hours a day.
Edit: I should have said "practices" instead of "plays" above.
Are Fruitdealer and Tester geniuses too? They never practiced either and we Code S/A for a long time. Fruitdealer came 2nd at IEM having played LoL for months on pure talent alone.
as a reminder stephano has beaten mkp and mma too. it's ridiculous when he wins vs a korean it's because the games were played online or the koreans were jet lagged but when he loses it's because he is overhyped and bad wtf realy.
On April 06 2012 03:12 kratos-23 wrote: as a reminder stephano has beaten mkp and mma too. it's ridiculous when he wins vs a korean it's because the games were played online or the koreans were jet lagged but when he loses it's because he is overhyped and bad wtf realy.
The MMA game was literally a meaningless game. It was as meaningless as the Naniwa probe rush game.
On April 06 2012 01:34 Bagration wrote: It never fails. Anytime Stephano plays, the LR threads always explode in debates on his ability to hold with top Koreans :p
You ought to make some IPL4 bets. What are the odds that a Stephano argument will break out before his group finishes?
First game of MKP vs Stephano, where MKP destroys stephano with a 2 rax. Which will be seen as a "cheesy rush" and mkp is obviously incapable of defeating stephano in the lategame because he "fears it"
thats my prediction of how that series will go
Haha, this is funny because it's so true. Plus, I never believe any of the koreans when they say stephano is code s, etc because they are so humble and are always quick to praise foreigners saying skill gap isn't there etc. MKP keeps saying byun is better than him and we all know that's not true because byun has never been better than mkp, but it's just mkp being humble.
Stephano is good and probably the top foreigner, but I have never bought into the hype. I put zergs like seal, life and b4 above him. The difference is those type of players don't get the same opportunities someone like stephano has.
All this Stephano discussion is nice and all, but I'd like to clarify he doesn't only practise 3 hours a day at the moment. He practises around double that I think.
On April 06 2012 03:12 kratos-23 wrote: as a reminder stephano has beaten mkp and mma too. it's ridiculous when he wins vs a korean it's because the games were played online or the koreans were jet lagged but when he loses it's because he is overhyped and bad wtf realy.
The MMA game was literally a meaningless game. It was as meaningless as the Naniwa probe rush game.
see lol that is EXACTLY what i mean. thanks for supporting my argument. also stephanos game vs jjakji were meaningless for him i guess. see what i did here? xD
He practices about 1/3 as much as a typical Korean and plays against far, far worse competition and yet performs on a Code S level according to me (and Polt, Nestea, MVP, etc.). This is the mark of someone extremely special. There are a couple of "genius" level players in Korea but it's more difficult to detect where talent ends and hard work begins when you're practicing 12-14 hours a day.
Edit: I should have said "practices" instead of "plays" above.
Are Fruitdealer and Tester geniuses too? They never practiced either and we Code S/A for a long time. Fruitdealer came 2nd at IEM having played LoL for months on pure talent alone.
Yes, if he's able to be the best (or among the best) in the world at something without practicing (when so many others are pracitcing so much harder to get similar results) I'm fully comfortable calling Fruitdealer a genius (by which I mean a truly extraordinary talent). I'm not familiar with Tester. I'm pretty sure he practiced at least some though since Fruitdealer was #1 on the Korean ladder for a while. In any event, I'm not saying that Stephano is the only genius in Starcraft. His results, given his practice environment are truly mind boggling.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
Phoenix and TypeReal are not middle-tier, they are extreme low-tier. They are not Code A worthy players and I wouldn't favor them in a ESV Korean Weekly either.
The Zenio win is nice, but you have to give me more than a ZvZ victory to convince me that Stephano can match against the top Korean players (which Zenio is not).
Puma's TvZ is frankly crappy when compared to his contemporaries. His Korean TLPD speaks for itself.
Stephano was able to beat Polt after studying his playstyle, and Polt was equally as stubborn for sticking to the same few builds. Stephano would be hard-pressed to pull the same trick on a player like MarineKing, who is far more flexible with build orders.
Dongraegu is not the best ZvZ player in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity.
Hero is not the best PvZ player in the world and never was.
JYP does not have the best PvZ in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity. I imagine the people who believe that have scant evidence to prove it.
Yes, you are being hyperbolic.
1. Zenio is a top tier zerg. He's in code S and there are only 7 or 8 zegs in Code S total at the moment. ZvZ is one of his better match ups and he lost 2-0 to Stephano. Zenio actually has a higher Elo than DRG in the match up (in Korea) and is #3 overall. 2. Your opinions as to who is the best or worse in a match up are pretty meaningless (as mine are), among other reasons, because you're a nobody and you appear to be a bit of a dope (and I'm not saying that just because we don't agree on this issue but rather because of an apparent complete inability to argue your points effectively, based on your posts in this forum and others). Objectively, JYP and Hero are better against Z than either MC or Parting, e.g., based on their Korean Elos. Along with Genius and Squirtle, JYP is definitely top 3 and I would say Hero is number 4 although there is room for debate here. 3. GSL should hire you to determine who is Code A caliber. I'm writing an unsolicited letter to GSL on your behalf as soon as I'm done posting this. 4. DRG beat Nestea at the GSL and the unofficial crown of King Zerg in zvz passed to him. He has a ridiculous zvz record, but I'm OK with disputing this point; he's not clearly the best in the way that Nestea was before he fell off a bit. Moreover as noted above, his Elo is actually below Zenio's; DRG is definitely top 5 though. 5. My figures are selective but more than sufficient to show how ridiculous many of the statements made in this forum about the level of Stephano's play are. Elo is as objective as it gets in terms of measuring how good you are at the moment on a weighted average basis. You've already lost this argument to the extent you think Stephano is not at least Code S quality. (If you don't think he is, you also would find yourself in disagreement with Nestea, Polt, MVP, MC, etc. on the caliber of his play, but again those are just opinions; facts are facts and his Elo score speaks for itself.) 6. Polt also called Stephano a genius (so I'm not totally alone here) and I think that's a good word to describe someone who puts in so little time and effort and yet achieves so much. He admits to not even watching replays of his losses. How is this guy so good? A: Genius.
It's simply not an effective way to rank player and you know it's not but you don't care as long as it suits you. According to ELO rank, Livezerg is the second best foreigner. Hell, it's just as ridiculous as saying Hero and JYP have the best PvZ so why not? MC hasn't had a game vs Zerg on Korean TLPD in like 3 months, exactly why its ridiculous to say JYP and Hero are "objectively" better than MC and Parting at PvZ at the moment based on ELO, even though MC effortlessly stomps the zergs that Hero loses to(Nerchio stephano violet etc) which is why it's a ridiculous way to rank players matchups.
EPT
