Two groups are done and two to go. After an epic but tragic final that saw the dramatic fate of Mvp being eliminated by losing to IdrA and MC, it is time to unleash the foreigners’ biggest hope. Four Koreans are already qualified, Stephano enters to break their domination.
One lonely Protoss
It must be said, the Polish has been quite unlucky with the group drawing. Very good to brilliant when playing against a Terran, the Protoss suffers when facing a player from the swarm. With Life and Stephano, MaNa will have to get to work and make something happen, especially considering the almost unbeatable ZvP of Stephano. In addition of the two Zergs, MaNa will be in a world of trouble to rely on his best match up as the two Terrans of the group are both Korean and both GSL winners. The very likable Mouz player will enter the tournament as an outsider but that does not mean he will not surprise every one and reach the Ro8.
An exemplar captain
Qualified through the second qualifier which was even tougher than the first one, Life is an already confirmed player on the Korean scene. He notably managed to qualify in Code A where he got eliminated by JYP. . He really is the key player of the line-up and brings light in the tough times ZeNEX has been through the last months, rumor even had it closing its doors due to financial issues. ZeNEX is still alive and one of its spearhead will compete in Iron Squid after defeating many known players in an amazingly stacked qualifier. Well at ease against Terran and Zerg, Life got a real shot in this group, but cannot be considered as a favorite with Jjakji and MMA in the same group.
The foreigners’ hope
Stephano might be the only French guy being considered as one of them by the Americans, which is maybe due to the fact he took over IdrA’s spot as best foreigner. Le French has been on aheater for the last six months winning tournament after tournament and shutting every month by his showing in international events. As many successful foreigners, Stephano got quite a temper and sometimes gets into troubles, which does not compromise his talent. After his victory in Paris at ESWC in October, he wants to shine again in front of his fans. Unfortunately the French is in an especially troublesome group, as he has to face two GSL champions in his worst match-up: ZvT. Stephano will have to bring his A game to have a chance to defeat either Jjakji or MMA.
A winner looking for an international name
Surprising winner of the last GSL of 2011, Jjakji is a now a respected player. The Terran plays a very spectacular style with innovative strategies that should please the Iron Squid audience. With one only mirror match, Jjakji has a good shot of making it to the round of 8 as both his TvZ and TvP are top notch. Slightly disappointed by his last GSL performance, he will try to make it up by going big in the Iron Squid, as he could come to Paris to compete in his first international event. His TvT has been his only weakness lately so once the match against MMA done, he will be in his comfort zone.
A “Father” to avenge
After the elimination of BoxeR, his “son” MMA now bears alone all the hopes of team SlayerS. The Korean is a fantastic player and maybe sometimes the best player in the world. His TvZ is nearly unbeatable and Stephano and Life will have to face hell. His TvT is also very solid and he will be the favorite against Jjakji. Only TvP could be considered as his Achilles’ heel but with only MaNa -a non Korean Protoss- in his group, he should do more than fine. MMA needs to remain careful because he will be the man to beat for the other four players, a man who is yet to win a title in Europe.
Can't wait to see all of them play, best group so far because it only consist of players I really like to watch.
If I had to call it, I'd say the two Terrans advance, but Life has upset potential as well, and both Stephano and Mana might take a game or two, so depending on who beats whom, it's still completely open.
On March 29 2012 01:49 quannguyen wrote: wow this group is sooooo stacked lol. Two GSL champions and the best foreign Zerg almost guarantee us some great games
Predictions for those matches tonight: Stephano > Mana Life < MMA MMA > Jjakji
On March 29 2012 01:49 quannguyen wrote: wow this group is sooooo stacked lol. Two GSL champions and the best foreign Zerg almost guarantee us some great games
Predictions for those matches tonight: Stephano > Mana Life < MMA MMA > Jjakji
Is Ironsquid choosing the order of games shown based on results? ToD and Thorzain both went 0-4 and had no games shown on the last day of broadcasting. Now we start with 2 Mana games, the clear underdog in Group C.
Edit: I misread. Actually 2 MMA games. But my assumption still is lurking. Lets see.
Winning Life in ZvZ and Mana in ZvP isn't enough to advance. Stephano has to take games off of the Terrans to have a good shot of advancing. Beating one in a Bo3 secures his advancement.
On March 29 2012 02:32 00Visor wrote: Is Ironsquid choosing the order of games shown based on results? ToD and Thorzain both went 0-4 and had no games shown on the last day of broadcasting. Now we start with 2 Mana games, the clear underdog in Group C.
On March 29 2012 02:32 00Visor wrote: Is Ironsquid choosing the order of games shown based on results? ToD and Thorzain both went 0-4 and had no games shown on the last day of broadcasting. Now we start with 2 Mana games, the clear underdog in Group C.
Today you have 2 Games of MMA not MaNa ^^
Ah, yeah. Dunno how I misread that. But my assumption is still lurking.
On March 29 2012 02:37 THM wrote: Cool group, looking forward to it. I might even watch the french cast again, was a lot of fun last time "OOOOOOOOOOO LA MARODER!" :D
Btw, were these games really played before ASUS ROG? That's such a long time ago... :o
Most of Games were played just after ASUS ROG Assembly.
That was just horrible by Mana. He does absolutely nothing until almost 11 minutes into the game, then moves out with a handful of Stalkers, when Stephano has been pumping units for 2 minutes already....
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
What? When? In practice games? Seriously, Stephano is as good as anyone could wish to be, but look at his match history. My point? How many korean protoss players did he face and defeat? MC, Genius, Parting, Creator, Puzzle would likely be much more on par than his foreigner "god streak" would suggest, and I would not doubt that many Code A players could take series off him.
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
What? When? In practice games? Seriously, Stephano is as good as anyone could wish to be, but look at his match history. My point? How many korean protoss players did he face and defeat? MC, Genius, Parting, Creator, Puzzle would likely be much more on par than his foreigner "god streak" would suggest, and I would not doubt that many Code A players could take series off him.
yeah, jyp went 0-5 against stephano 3 days before mlg in pratice games =p But yeah, I really want to see him playing against good koreans. Guess ipl 4 will do it for me.
On March 29 2012 04:28 Kznn wrote: how in hell did inori beat stephano?
He didn't sit passively on 2 base for 11 minutes and let Stephano Drone up on 3 bases and build an army?
Many protosses attempt to pressure him with early 4 gate pressure, 5 gate pressure, DTs, etc.; he typically crushes it easily, and then the game is over, which is why many P stopped trying to pressure him early. He can hold basically everything with his build, which is why he rarely loses. Inori apparently nexused first which allowed him to get his attack going about 30 seconds earlier than the earliest Stephano was anticipating (it commenced at 7:30 instead of 8:00) and it caught him off guard. Stephano apparently didn't scout at all; inori isn't very good and Stephano's handled him easily in the past. Not sure how he lost the game with DTs.
On March 29 2012 04:28 Kznn wrote: how in hell did inori beat stephano?
He didn't sit passively on 2 base for 11 minutes and let Stephano Drone up on 3 bases and build an army?
Many protosses attempt to pressure him with early 4 gate pressure, 5 gate pressure, DTs, etc.; he typically crushes it easily, and then the game is over, which is why many P stopped trying to pressure him early. He can hold basically everything with his build, which is why he rarely loses. Inori apparently nexused first which allowed him to get his attack going about 30 seconds earlier than the earliest Stephano was anticipating (it commenced at 7:30 instead of 8:00) and it caught him off guard. Stephano apparently didn't scout at all; inori isn't very good and Stephano's handled him easily in the past. Not sure how he lost the game with DTs.
Nexus first speeds up all your timings. Hell, Inori didn't just nexus first. He nexus'd first and then built a gateway before forge. That's as greedy as it gets.
For a timing player like Stephano, having your timings thrown off is killer. Imagine your build gets an evo and lair at 7:00 in order to stop DTs because that's the earliest you've seen Protoss get them. Protoss hits you with DTs at 6:30. You just die.
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
You're simply wrong. Foreign protosses especially Grubby have tried virtually everything -- from early zealot pressure, to one base 4 gating, to warp prism play, to DT harass etc. Stephano's reactions and micro are amazing. If you try to get cute, you almost always lose. Stephano's lack of an early game scout cost him against Inori because he couldn't see how greedy Inori was being apparently.
Inori gambled that Stephano would do a specific build and he did. Stephano has punished people for making similar assumptions in the past (watch his second game against Grubby at LSC for a recent example). As the better player, Stephano should have scouted and it's his fault he didn't. He doesn't need the extra 100 minerals he saves by not scouting to beat an Inori.
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
You're simply wrong. Foreign protosses especially Grubby have tried virtually everything -- from early zealot pressure, to one base 4 gating, to warp prism play, to DT harass etc. Stephano's reactions and micro are amazing. If you try to get cute, you almost always lose. Stephano's lack of an early game scout cost him against Inori because he couldn't see how greedy Inori was being apparently.
Inori gambled that Stephano would do a specific build and he did. Stephano has punished people for making similar assumptions in the past (watch his second game against Grubby at LSC for a recent example). As the better player, Stephano should have scouted and it's his fault he didn't. He doesn't need the extra 100 minerals he saves by not scouting to beat an Inori.
Nah, I'm right, because Stephano is like 25-2 vs. foreign Protoss, but he's like 10-20 vs. Korean Protoss.
Foreign Protoss try to do cute things, but they don't understand how to have those cute things transform into wins. They make special taktik builds that help them macro into the late game and gain small edges, but Stephano doesn't lose to Protoss late game - not to foreign Protoss, anyhow.
The difference between them and Inori is that Inori looked at Stephano's timings and formulated a strategy for victory, not to merely survive with a small edge until the late game. He saw that Stephano didn't scout, and that not scouting means a two-base all-in kills him before he's prepared, and that this results in a win.
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
You're simply wrong. Foreign protosses especially Grubby have tried virtually everything -- from early zealot pressure, to one base 4 gating, to warp prism play, to DT harass etc. Stephano's reactions and micro are amazing. If you try to get cute, you almost always lose. Stephano's lack of an early game scout cost him against Inori because he couldn't see how greedy Inori was being apparently.
Inori gambled that Stephano would do a specific build and he did. Stephano has punished people for making similar assumptions in the past (watch his second game against Grubby at LSC for a recent example). As the better player, Stephano should have scouted and it's his fault he didn't. He doesn't need the extra 100 minerals he saves by not scouting to beat an Inori.
god, stop being so ignorant. just watch the replays stephano released after his time in korea. there you will see how good stephano's zvp really is when he faces protoss players that actually understand how to play pvz.
On March 29 2012 04:28 Kznn wrote: how in hell did inori beat stephano?
He didn't sit passively on 2 base for 11 minutes and let Stephano Drone up on 3 bases and build an army?
Many protosses attempt to pressure him with early 4 gate pressure, 5 gate pressure, DTs, etc.; he typically crushes it easily, and then the game is over, which is why many P stopped trying to pressure him early. He can hold basically everything with his build, which is why he rarely loses. Inori apparently nexused first which allowed him to get his attack going about 30 seconds earlier than the earliest Stephano was anticipating (it commenced at 7:30 instead of 8:00) and it caught him off guard. Stephano apparently didn't scout at all; inori isn't very good and Stephano's handled him easily in the past. Not sure how he lost the game with DTs.
Nexus first speeds up all your timings. Hell, Inori didn't just nexus first. He nexus'd first and then built a gateway before forge. That's as greedy as it gets.
For a timing player like Stephano, having your timings thrown off is killer. Imagine your build gets an evo and lair at 7:00 in order to stop DTs because that's the earliest you've seen Protoss get them. Protoss hits you with DTs at 6:30. You just die.
Fully agree with your point about timings. A 30 second in the early game is massive.
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
You're simply wrong. Foreign protosses especially Grubby have tried virtually everything -- from early zealot pressure, to one base 4 gating, to warp prism play, to DT harass etc. Stephano's reactions and micro are amazing. If you try to get cute, you almost always lose. Stephano's lack of an early game scout cost him against Inori because he couldn't see how greedy Inori was being apparently.
Inori gambled that Stephano would do a specific build and he did. Stephano has punished people for making similar assumptions in the past (watch his second game against Grubby at LSC for a recent example). As the better player, Stephano should have scouted and it's his fault he didn't. He doesn't need the extra 100 minerals he saves by not scouting to beat an Inori.
god, stop being so ignorant. just watch the replays stephano released after his time in korea. there will see how good stephano's zvp really is when he faces protoss players that actually understand how to play pvz.
Why is he ignorant? Stephanos broadcasted games in korean TLPD supports his claim
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
You're simply wrong. Foreign protosses especially Grubby have tried virtually everything -- from early zealot pressure, to one base 4 gating, to warp prism play, to DT harass etc. Stephano's reactions and micro are amazing. If you try to get cute, you almost always lose. Stephano's lack of an early game scout cost him against Inori because he couldn't see how greedy Inori was being apparently.
Inori gambled that Stephano would do a specific build and he did. Stephano has punished people for making similar assumptions in the past (watch his second game against Grubby at LSC for a recent example). As the better player, Stephano should have scouted and it's his fault he didn't. He doesn't need the extra 100 minerals he saves by not scouting to beat an Inori.
god, stop being so ignorant. just watch the replays stephano released after his time in korea. there will see how good stephano's zvp really is when he faces protoss players that actually understand how to play pvz.
Why is he ignorant? Stephanos broadcasted games in korean TLPD supports his claim
...What Korean TLPD games?
Oh, those bo1s from Blizzard Cup 2011 where he won against the worst in the tournament (HerO) and lost to MC?
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
Yea, inori beat stephano once, and will never beat him again. Stephano learns from his loses.
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
You're simply wrong. Foreign protosses especially Grubby have tried virtually everything -- from early zealot pressure, to one base 4 gating, to warp prism play, to DT harass etc. Stephano's reactions and micro are amazing. If you try to get cute, you almost always lose. Stephano's lack of an early game scout cost him against Inori because he couldn't see how greedy Inori was being apparently.
Inori gambled that Stephano would do a specific build and he did. Stephano has punished people for making similar assumptions in the past (watch his second game against Grubby at LSC for a recent example). As the better player, Stephano should have scouted and it's his fault he didn't. He doesn't need the extra 100 minerals he saves by not scouting to beat an Inori.
god, stop being so ignorant. just watch the replays stephano released after his time in korea. there will see how good stephano's zvp really is when he faces protoss players that actually understand how to play pvz.
I've seen his replays from Korea and he generally won. He had 70% + win rate on the server and P was not his worse match up, which means he did very well. So what's your point? He lost to Squirtle and MC and beat basically everyone else. How am I being ignorant? Also your post doesn't make any sense since it's raising a point (how he did in Korea) totally unrelated to the point I'm making -- which is that Foreign protosses have tried to mix up their strategies against him and it hasn't worked. It isn't just about timings; it's about micro, how well you harass etc. Protosses like squirtle are just better than Foreigners at doing a variety of little things, which taken together at least at one point gave them an edge over Stephano. It's not just timings. Nevertheless I think Stephano is better now than he was while was in Korea.
On March 29 2012 04:55 Lasbike wrote: JYP couldn't find a solution against Stephano, 4 games in a row. And he's known to be a pretty good PvZ player.. (JYP)
JYP's standard game isn't good enough to beat Stephano, but had he met Stephano in MLG, you're not going to see his standard game. That's the difference - JYP collected enough information from Stephano in those practice matches to know he's not going to beat Stephano in a straight up standard game, so he prepares other strategies.
I've seen that build used in Stephano's practice games on Antiga. Stephano is so smart! Mutas are perfect on this map. I mean if they attempt a counter how do they possibly win in a base trade vs double upgraded mutas and lings, on ANTIGA? And....by the time it gets to the late game you have 3-3 3-3 BLs lululul.
On March 29 2012 04:28 WigglingSquid wrote: Stephano would likely find the matchup less broken if he consistently played against better/more aggro opponents (no offense meant to Mana).
jyp got smashed in the same way.. your point? maybe mc or genius..yes... but otherwise.. yep stephano is a god against protoss
Inori is a pretty middle of the road Protoss as far as Protosses go.
He beat Stephano by doing one simple thing - meta-gaming.
Foreigner Protosses just do not understand this concept. They don't know how to take risks. They go up against Stephano with safe play and get demolished because three hatch roach crushes safe play from Protoss. Granted, this was back around the time of ASUS ROG, so it's not really fair to Mana because back then Protosses were struggling.
You're simply wrong. Foreign protosses especially Grubby have tried virtually everything -- from early zealot pressure, to one base 4 gating, to warp prism play, to DT harass etc. Stephano's reactions and micro are amazing. If you try to get cute, you almost always lose. Stephano's lack of an early game scout cost him against Inori because he couldn't see how greedy Inori was being apparently.
Inori gambled that Stephano would do a specific build and he did. Stephano has punished people for making similar assumptions in the past (watch his second game against Grubby at LSC for a recent example). As the better player, Stephano should have scouted and it's his fault he didn't. He doesn't need the extra 100 minerals he saves by not scouting to beat an Inori.
Nah, I'm right, because Stephano is like 25-2 vs. foreign Protoss, but he's like 10-20 vs. Korean Protoss.
Foreign Protoss try to do cute things, but they don't understand how to have those cute things transform into wins. They make special taktik builds that help them macro into the late game and gain small edges, but Stephano doesn't lose to Protoss late game - not to foreign Protoss, anyhow.
The difference between them and Inori is that Inori looked at Stephano's timings and formulated a strategy for victory, not to merely survive with a small edge until the late game. He saw that Stephano didn't scout, and that not scouting means a two-base all-in kills him before he's prepared, and that this results in a win.
No you said Foreign protosses don't take risks. They do take risks and I pointed out a variety of builds that are as all in as it gets. So that point is wrong. You're now making a different point which is much more defensible from your original point and a point which i generally agree with. No more on this . . . .
On March 29 2012 05:03 Asha` wrote: That Terran greed.
3 CC, 1/1/1 production, double ebay.
Typical MMA.
Seems like standard GSL terran nowadays. MKP held an all in from July with pretty much the same build today (though I think he delayed his double ebay) extremely comfortably.
On March 29 2012 04:58 nokz88 wrote: Enough of Stephano, let's marvel at the most onesided matchup ever in SC2, MMA vs Z
Life could win if he does a roach ling all in or baneling bust...maybe.
Dimaga beat MMA with a roachbane bust in IEM Kiev. The first time in like forever that somebody's managed to bust him in the early game.
That was Lucky. MMA thought Dima would go mutas, so he went for a pre-spire timing when Dima was going ling-infestor. His push was overrun and it spiralled out of control.
That game was so insane by MMA. Life did make it somewhat close, but he was on 2 base vs MMA's 4.
On March 29 2012 05:05 The_Darkness wrote: No you said Foreign protosses don't take risks. They do take risks and I pointed out a variety of builds that are as all in as it gets. So that point is wrong. You're now making a different point which is much more defensible from your original point and a point which i generally agree with. No more on this . . . .
I said they don't know how to take risks and meta-game >< But you're right, there's no use talking about this - I wasn't that careful in my first post; the second post is what I think.
Yeah, anyone who plays well with the word "Zenex" in their handle will get taken within a month. It is a curse as strong as the Kong line, if more understandable.
Life really could have won this series but just lacks a bit of finesse. Oh well, he'll win games like this the next time he plays them as long as he watches the replay and corrects the mistakes ^^
Great series there! Glad MMA won, but congrats Life for taking a game off of the world's best TvZ player (and in my opinion the best Terran right now ).
Ah I have such a pet peeve about losing in the GSL (in jjakji's case at the very last point possible) and making it straight back to Code S for the new season still being considered dropping to Code A TT.
On March 29 2012 05:57 Asha` wrote: Ah I have such a pet peeve about losing in the GSL (in jjakji's case at the very last point possible) and making it straight back to Code S for the new season still being considered dropping to Code A TT.
Anyway, really hope Jjelly wins.
I just hope he'll put on a good fight. I am tired of people saying that "Jjakji hasn't been putting up results", but maybe I am just a fanboy.
This is frustrating, Jjakji playing like he doesn't care. Never see him just throw away a medivac like that when it's so necessary to actually get highground vision.
===
and then target fires cloak and loses all his units to hellions.
On March 29 2012 06:21 Asha` wrote: Life was so close to winning but made a few silly oversights and lost because of it
He respected MMA too much. When he was playing in the Iron Squid qualifier, he would mercilessly hound his opponent when he got the smallest advantage.
On March 29 2012 06:21 Asha` wrote: Life was so close to winning but made a few silly oversights and lost because of it
He respected MMA too much. When he was playing in the Iron Squid qualifier, he would mercilessly hound his opponent when he got the smallest advantage.
Maybe he was nervous? His expand timings seemed quite slow in games 2 and 3. He took a very late 3rd, which is bad when MMA has his OC down and your hatchery hasn't started yet.
On March 29 2012 06:21 Asha` wrote: Life was so close to winning but made a few silly oversights and lost because of it
He respected MMA too much. When he was playing in the Iron Squid qualifier, he would mercilessly hound his opponent when he got the smallest advantage.
He did, but it's the small things that really cost him in the end imo
In game 1 there was no reason to lose his third when he was ravaging MMA's base, but he rallied all his lings to the attack and let a small handful of easily handled units kill his third which stopped his income and ability to reinforce.
In game 3 had he just run a ling or two to MMA's third not only could he have still killed off a ton of SCV's in the undefended main but he could have slowed or even outright cancelled the CC being built there.
On March 29 2012 06:21 Asha` wrote: Life was so close to winning but made a few silly oversights and lost because of it
He respected MMA too much. When he was playing in the Iron Squid qualifier, he would mercilessly hound his opponent when he got the smallest advantage.
He did, but it's the small things that really cost him in the end imo
In game 1 there was no reason to lose his third when he was ravaging MMA's base, but he rallied all his lings to the attack and let a small handful of easily handled units kill his third which stopped his income and ability to reinforce.
In game 3 had he just run a ling or two to MMA's third not only could he have still killed off a ton of SCV's in the undefended main but he could have slowed or even outright cancelled the CC being built there.
He'll live and learn though =)
It might've been nerves. He's playing against one of the best Terrans in the world and he's the only ZeNEX member who is really making a name for himself in the foreign scene. It's not like ZeNEX will pay his travel fare to foreign tournaments.
I've watched a lot of his games and while he usually doesn't scout in the early game, he is very through in taking map control in the midgame. But he didn't really do that this series.
On March 29 2012 06:21 Asha` wrote: Life was so close to winning but made a few silly oversights and lost because of it
He respected MMA too much. When he was playing in the Iron Squid qualifier, he would mercilessly hound his opponent when he got the smallest advantage.
Maybe he was nervous? His expand timings seemed quite slow in games 2 and 3. He took a very late 3rd, which is bad when MMA has his OC down and your hatchery hasn't started yet.
Life was definitely playing like he was scared of all-ins.
Today was really fun. At least the chat was. It was relaxing. Actually possible to talk to people. Not the most amazing games, but I quite liked the MMA v Jjakji game. The first one.
Anyone know where the MC vs. MVP vod is? I'm checking out IronSquid's youtube channel, and I can see most games, but MC vs. MVP doesn't seem to be there.
It is about the schedules. They posted a thread back in January introducing the entire tournament. Does anyone know which server these matches are being played? I know they are being casted out of Europe. I know that the ping on KR to EU and EU to KR is unplayable.
On March 31 2012 02:48 onedayclose wrote: It is about the schedules. They posted a thread back in January introducing the entire tournament. Does anyone know which server these matches are being played? I know they are being casted out of Europe. I know that the ping on KR to EU and EU to KR is unplayable.
they were played on the most confortable server for the players, domestic when possible and NA when cross servers
I really hope Mana can do something against MMA. PvT is not his worst mu and MMA has not a great TvP neither. But well, it's MMA so I guess he's gonna win anyway. But a miraculous win over MMA from Mana would be so great for Stephano. Let's keep some faith !
Oh btw I'm french and I live in Japan which is on the same time as Korea. And you say on the OP that the EU broadcast starts at 9pm in France and 5am in Korea, which means there is 8 hours of time lag between the 2 countries. But this is wrong since there is only 7 hours because of the summer time in France. Then I suppose broadcast in Japan/Korea will actually start at 4am, am I right ?
On April 02 2012 01:03 NOOBALOPSE wrote: LOL! you know what i just realised??? All the foreigners are american on the liquipedia. lool. Keep stephano as american flag please!!!
Seriously? That's digusting, he should keep his Vermont flag. But still: USA! USA! USA!
On April 02 2012 01:03 NOOBALOPSE wrote: LOL! you know what i just realised??? All the foreigners are american on the liquipedia. lool. Keep stephano as american flag please!!!
People need to realise once and for all that the USA joke was NOT about Stephano. To me, the fact that it keeps getting misquoted or used as something for stephano it's worse than the joke itself.
On April 02 2012 04:05 Pachwa wrote: If MMA beats Mana, he has a 90% shot at advancing.
MMA would be 3-1 in matches then. That would make him certain to advance right?
Essentially, just giving myself some room in case something crazy happens where someone goes on a tear through the rest of the group (and ends up with a better map score, although MMA is already at 4-1) and Stephano wins out (beating MMA). I don't see that happening, but it is there.
On April 02 2012 04:25 Azarkon wrote: Cross-servers ZvZ favors Stephano. Taking the win vs. Life is good but not enough, just hope he goes 2-0 because he'll need it vs. the Terrans.
Not really, lag is about equal since they're playing on NA
On April 02 2012 04:25 Azarkon wrote: Cross-servers ZvZ favors Stephano. Taking the win vs. Life is good but not enough, just hope he goes 2-0 because he'll need it vs. the Terrans.
Not really, lag is about equal since they're playing on NA
This really isn't true. Either Life or Stephano could have way more lag. Some days I connect to NA and get 100ms, other days 400ms.
On April 02 2012 04:25 Azarkon wrote: Cross-servers ZvZ favors Stephano. Taking the win vs. Life is good but not enough, just hope he goes 2-0 because he'll need it vs. the Terrans.
Not really, lag is about equal since they're playing on NA
Having a bit of latency favors Stephano not because he has better latency, but because he is used to it - foreigners had to play cross-servers a lot more until recently.
On April 02 2012 04:30 Ghanburighan wrote: Commercial in the middle of the game, no commercial during the commercial break...
I had no commercial at all....the only tournament where I see commercials sometimes is IPL and the other day I faced the same problem no commercials during the brake and ton of commercials in the middle of the game. So I know your pain! Although that was the first time it happened so maybe you get lucky and it stops soon
Reason he survived was because the bulk of Stephano's forces were in lings, not roaches. The lings had to be held back because Life had banelings. Not being able to attack loses battles same as not having enough units.
Stephano tried to take too many easy wins there. An European Zerg leaving his ramp open happens a lot, but Korean Zergs go for two queens and when they're on one base those two queens are blocking the ramp - this is routine. I do think Life had the build order advantage all game long that game but the way he expanded on that advantage is what gave him the win. Yeah, he lost like 700 minerals in hatcheries there, but he managed to sneak in drones while defending and putting on pressure whereas Stephano was all-in half the game and that was what made the difference.
Also, Stephano traded badly in the ling baneling exchanges they had and that accumulates. ZvZ is all about winning early game exchanges while pressuring so that you can force the opponent to build units while you build drones.
On April 02 2012 04:56 Asha` wrote: Well done Life <3
Protoss has Creator Terran has Maru Zerg has Life
What do you mean? I don't quite see the connection.
they're all like 15 or younger
And all extremely promising
Haven't seen much of life tbh. Does he have other recent accomplishments?
I think it was mostly the way he destroyed the qualifier for this tourney and he's ZeneX's Ace. He all killed in the IPL team league. He looks pretty good usually in the ESV and KSL tournies. He had some good games against HerO yesterday but he just kind of overdid it with his aggression
On April 02 2012 04:56 Asha` wrote: Well done Life <3
Protoss has Creator Terran has Maru Zerg has Life
What do you mean? I don't quite see the connection.
they're all like 15 or younger
And all extremely promising
Haven't seen much of life tbh. Does he have other recent accomplishments?
I think it was mostly the way he destroyed the qualifier for this tourney and he's ZeneX's Ace. He all killed in the IPL team league. He looks pretty good usually in the ESV and KSL tournies. He had some good games against HerO yesterday but he just kind of overdid it with his aggression
Interesting. Really hadn't heard much about him, other then a few games in the IPL tourney. He seemed to have good gamesense, but his lategame control didn't seem up par with the real top level Zergs.
On April 02 2012 04:56 Asha` wrote: Well done Life <3
Protoss has Creator Terran has Maru Zerg has Life
What do you mean? I don't quite see the connection.
they're all like 15 or younger
And all extremely promising
Haven't seen much of life tbh. Does he have other recent accomplishments?
I think it was mostly the way he destroyed the qualifier for this tourney and he's ZeneX's Ace. He all killed in the IPL team league. He looks pretty good usually in the ESV and KSL tournies. He had some good games against HerO yesterday but he just kind of overdid it with his aggression
he won a esv weekly over jjakji(back when jjakji was not in the gsl). life is mostly known for his solid ZvT
On April 02 2012 04:56 Asha` wrote: Well done Life <3
Protoss has Creator Terran has Maru Zerg has Life
What do you mean? I don't quite see the connection.
they're all like 15 or younger
And all extremely promising
Haven't seen much of life tbh. Does he have other recent accomplishments?
I think it was mostly the way he destroyed the qualifier for this tourney and he's ZeneX's Ace. He all killed in the IPL team league. He looks pretty good usually in the ESV and KSL tournies. He had some good games against HerO yesterday but he just kind of overdid it with his aggression
Interesting. Really hadn't heard much about him, other then a few games in the IPL tourney. He seemed to have good gamesense, but his lategame control didn't seem up par with the real top level Zergs.
He isn't in the GSL yet?
He was in Season 1 this year, but lost 2-1 to JYP. But his ZvP is similars to that of idra(So really terrible)
On April 02 2012 04:56 Asha` wrote: Well done Life <3
Protoss has Creator Terran has Maru Zerg has Life
What do you mean? I don't quite see the connection.
they're all like 15 or younger
And all extremely promising
Haven't seen much of life tbh. Does he have other recent accomplishments?
I think it was mostly the way he destroyed the qualifier for this tourney and he's ZeneX's Ace. He all killed in the IPL team league. He looks pretty good usually in the ESV and KSL tournies. He had some good games against HerO yesterday but he just kind of overdid it with his aggression
Interesting. Really hadn't heard much about him, other then a few games in the IPL tourney. He seemed to have good gamesense, but his lategame control didn't seem up par with the real top level Zergs.
He isn't in the GSL yet?
He made his first Code A last season but lost to JYP in the first round of Code A 1-2 (should have won the series imo).
He's been rank 1 Korea GM forever too. Really talented kid, prone to being a bit inconsistent but he's fun to watch and has some unique builds and twists on standard play. Once he gets a bit more experience there'll be nothing stopping him becoming a GSL regular.
===
I kind of like Mana's chances here, MMA's vP is still shaky and cross server on good maps he's definitely got a shot.
(so naturally MMA will probably destroy him anyway =p)
How is MMA not good at TvP? He has great bio-play, great dropping, great multitasking, all skills key in TvP, yet his TvP is so lackluster compared to his other MU. It's mind-boggling.
Then again in the beginning TB said that even if this ends 2-0 im sure we'll see great games...so Im not sure if he accidently spoiled the result or if he was just expecting MMA to crush this...
Awesome Mana !!! MMA with no efficient drop as he usually does, Mana made not many mistakes, though he did lost his colossus too easily. But great win from Mana, so happy he killed MMA on the first set ! Hope he can beat him !
Then again in the beginning TB said that even if this ends 2-0 im sure we'll see great games...so Im not sure if he accidently spoiled the result or if he was just expecting MMA to crush this...
Then again in the beginning TB said that even if this ends 2-0 im sure we'll see great games...so Im not sure if he accidently spoiled the result or if he was just expecting MMA to crush this...
Mana did it for the 1st set man !
Im sorry I dont understand your point? Are you trying to say that Mana crushed the first game? If that is the case, that was my point...If TB slipped we know who wins the second game...if he was just expecting MMA to win 2-0 then there is chance for a comeback. This was my point, Im sorry if I didnt make it clear.
I tried but I stil dont get your post
EDIT: Im happy to be wrong! Comeback is possible! Gogo MMA
On April 02 2012 05:21 Bagration wrote: How is MMA not good at TvP? He has great bio-play, great dropping, great multitasking, all skills key in TvP, yet his TvP is so lackluster compared to his other MU. It's mind-boggling.
It doesn't always make sense. Most of the time, it comes down to how much you have practiced and understood the matchup, rather than pure mechanics. I suspect that MMA just hasn't found his comfort zone in TvP yet, whereas in TvZ he knows the timings and feels safer doing his trademark play.
MKP used to have mediocre TvP. Until the start of this year, MC's worst matchup was PvZ, even losing to Sen in PPSL (not in TLPD). Both of them went back to Korea, practiced the fuck out of the matchup and are now utter beasts. MMA just hasn't managed to reach that point in TvP.
Of course, the fact that Mana's best matchup is PvT by a mile probably compounds the problem.
On April 02 2012 05:21 Bagration wrote: How is MMA not good at TvP? He has great bio-play, great dropping, great multitasking, all skills key in TvP, yet his TvP is so lackluster compared to his other MU. It's mind-boggling.
It doesn't always make sense. Most of the time, it comes down to how much you have practiced and understood the matchup, rather than pure mechanics. I suspect that MMA just hasn't found his comfort zone in TvP yet, whereas in TvZ he knows the timings and feels safer doing his trademark play.
MKP used to have mediocre TvP. Until the start of this year, MC's worst matchup was PvZ, even losing to Sen in PPSL (not in TLPD). Both of them went back to Korea, practiced the fuck out of the matchup and are now utter beasts. MMA just hasn't managed to reach that point in TvP.
Of course, the fact that Mana's best matchup is PvT by a mile probably compounds the problem.
Then again in the beginning TB said that even if this ends 2-0 im sure we'll see great games...so Im not sure if he accidently spoiled the result or if he was just expecting MMA to crush this...
How could I spoil a result I did not know to begin with?
On April 02 2012 05:39 Greenei wrote: It's really weird, that they don't know the new MMA build. Haven't they seen IEM? It was obvious what he was gonna do after he threw 2 gas.
Bearing in mind Apollo cast IEM, why don't you enlighten us as to what he was going to do. It's not obvious and you didn't say so in your post.
If MMA played a little bit better he would've had it, very poor saturation, scv production, and drop control, his third cc took ages to be turned into an orbital and he lost units left and right when he could've saved them and done more damage, oh well.
Then again in the beginning TB said that even if this ends 2-0 im sure we'll see great games...so Im not sure if he accidently spoiled the result or if he was just expecting MMA to crush this...
How could I spoil a result I did not know to begin with?
We don't prewatch replays
I didn't know that, sorry...plus I edited my post when MMA won the second game. And I considered the other option. It wasn't my intention to complain or accuse you of anything. It was just a case of wanting MMA to win and fearing that might not happen.
And it didn't. Nice games from Mana. This complicates things for MMA but I still believe!
On April 02 2012 05:39 Greenei wrote: It's really weird, that they don't know the new MMA build. Haven't they seen IEM? It was obvious what he was gonna do after he threw 2 gas.
Bearing in mind Apollo cast IEM, why don't you enlighten us as to what he was going to do. It's not obvious and you didn't say so in your post.
I wrote the post after game 2 which I'm referring to. MMA showed that build multiple times on IEM on maps with small chokes on the natural (e.g. Entombed Valley). It's a 1 Rax Expand into double gas, then another Rax into Cloak into 3 Tank (usually +Combatshield) timing push with quick third. Though he didn't do quick third this game, because it's hard to hold and he got a PF instead.
Why are you looking at the streams and not the event listing on the right sidebar calendar o_O
I did, eventually. But not seeing it on the stream list totally had me missing it until now. All other tournaments I can ever remember worth watching has always been on the featured list.
Why are you looking at the streams and not the event listing on the right sidebar calendar o_O
I did, eventually. But not seeing it on the stream list totally had me missing it until now. All other tournaments I can ever remember worth watching has always been on the featured list.
Jjakji being sloppy with his unit control a lot this game - getting his units surrounded at Life's natural and losing them all to slow banelings, dropping marines into zergling surrounds, etc.
On April 02 2012 07:04 EmilA wrote: Killed most of my opponents workers and I am up in supply by 40
No better time to GG
He was 4 workers ahead against 1/1 marines, 3 ocs and with no upgrades of his own, kinda dead but I guess he could still put up a fight, but he was definetely not ahead.
On April 02 2012 07:04 EmilA wrote: Killed most of my opponents workers and I am up in supply by 40
No better time to GG
He was 4 workers ahead against 1/1 marines, 3 ocs and with no upgrades of his own, kinda dead but I guess he could still put up a fight, but he was definetely not ahead.
I know he wasnt ahead ^^) But he was far from out of it, but I guess I'd have done the same if I was behind against a player that is prolly a lot better than myself.
Life had exhausted his main and the natural was becoming dangerously low. That was not 3 base vs 3 base, and the supply lead wasn't much when it's roaches vs tanks + 1/1 medi-stimmed marines.
Granted, a lot of Life's engagements could have gone better and his upgrades were behind, but other than that I'm not so sure that he had to gg. Especially after just having blown up another 10 SCVs or so during that last battle. O.o
It was an IdrA gg, yeah, but it's one of the better IdrA ggs. This wasn't IdrA gging to hallucinated void rays and MMA killing his own command center. This was IdrA gging after falling way behind.
On April 02 2012 07:20 WigglingSquid wrote: No Zealots No Party, Mana! Nice focus firing by Jjakji, slowing down an Immortal but focusing the farther first.
Yeah, who the hell engages terran armies without zealots...
On April 02 2012 07:20 WigglingSquid wrote: No Zealots No Party, Mana! Nice focus firing by Jjakji, slowing down an Immortal but focusing the farther first.
Yeah, who the hell engages terran armies without zealots...
He did have some zealots.
He just sort of...forcefielded to create a funnel to run them into right at the start of the fight >_>
Phoenix is the answer to banshees, but does terrible vs. thors. Immortals are the answer to thors, but does terrible vs. banshees. HTs kill both, but no one goes HTs that early. Mass stalkers are okay vs them, but the raven is the answer to that.
Very well done by Jjakji but I didn't like how close Mana came to holding it off (with a few more hts ready to storm he would've), despite not scouting it till the 15 minute mark.
On April 02 2012 07:39 R!! wrote: Very well done by Jjakji but I didn't like how close Mana came to holding it off (with a few more hts ready to storm he would've), despite not scouting it till the 15 minute mark.
close? he barely killed a single banshee and the marines werent in the fight to avoid storms, even if the marines and thors would have died, he could not have killed 8 cloaked banshees with that little anti air.
On April 02 2012 07:39 R!! wrote: Very well done by Jjakji but I didn't like how close Mana came to holding it off (with a few more hts ready to storm he would've), despite not scouting it till the 15 minute mark.
close? he barely killed a single banshee and the marines werent in the fight to avoid storms, even if the marines and thors would have died, he could not have killed 8 cloaked banshees with that little anti air.
2 storms, banshees are gone, look at the amount of damage the first storm did to them
What exactly are terrans complaining about? This looks soo strong and I dont know when was the last time Ive seen a terran go banshee and it didnt pay off, banshees never die and always kill like 5/6 probes, worst case obviously.. No Idea how one is supposed to hold this tbh, you have no detection that cant be killed super easily, youd need phoenix to take the banshees since stalkers are terrible :/
On April 02 2012 07:43 -y0shi- wrote: What exactly are terrans complaining about? This looks soo strong and I dont know when was the last time Ive seen a terran go banshee and it didnt pay off, banshees never die and always kill like 5/6 probes, worst case obviously.. No Idea how one is supposed to hold this tbh, you have no detection that cant be killed super easily, youd need phoenix to take the banshees since stalkers are terrible :/
Scout before the push is already moving out?Lol, Mana had only 2 hts with storm out of luck, because he was gonna all-in himself and one of those did terrible, terrible damage* to the banshees, wonder what he would do with 4 hts ready to storm.
Doubt mana had the time to scout this, his obs were needed to defend all those banshees :/ I also kinda asume that mana knew what was coming with 3! banshees?
Currently MMA is favored to advance. Even if he loses 1-2 it would still take very specific circumstances to take him out (namely Jjakji winning 2-1, and even then a three-way tie is possible if Life wins 2-0).
Jjakji advances if and only if he wins against Stephano, so that's easy to understand. (if he loses 1-2 it can still go to a three-way tie if Stephano loses 0-2 and Life wins 2-1).
Life advances if he wins 2-0, and Stephano wins 2-0 vs MMA, and Stephano wins against Jjakji (regardless of score). Quite the uphill battle.
[B]On March 29 2012 01:36 IronSquid wrote: MMA needs to remain careful because he will be the man to beat for the other four players, a man who is yet to win a title in Europe.
I think this whole recent downspiral began with Stephano missing the Millennium Cup and getting bashed by the Millennium manager, who is a rather reasonable guy but finally lost his patience. After that Stephano went to MLG and lost, and then never returned to France AFAIK but instead went to Bling's house in the UK to stay until IPL. I don't know what's going on, but this turn of events doesn't look very favorable for Stephano's relationship with his team and country's tournament organizers.
That's very bad especially for the tournament staff because matches against big names are the ones who gather most of the viewers->money. Players like Stephano who forfeit their matches on a regular basis at the last seconds are actually weakening the scene. But as long as there are no consequences i dont see why they would care.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
On April 04 2012 04:44 gds wrote: That's very bad especially for the tournament staff because matches against big names are the ones who gather most of the viewers->money. Players like Stephano who forfeit their matches on a regular basis at the last seconds are actually weakening the scene. But as long as there are no consequences i dont see why they would care.
wait till you get the whole story before you condemn someone
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life and thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
Forfeiting like he did at ONOG is perfectly normal and an acceptable way to behave yourself in professional competitive gaming. Only the naive, and frankly ignorant, people in this community tend to think that forfeiting is "OMG BM".
It is much less respectable and honest what the organizers did, i.e saying "whatever we're just putting him 4th even if in the rules it's fine to forfeit, so we still have 2 hours of games we can show, get more views because of the drama, more money from the ads, and we'll just let the retarded community dump the shame on Stephano".
The NASL games were useless once the 8 qualified players were decided.
The Iron Squid games were useless just like the NASL ones. It is pretty clear why would someone want to forfeit the last match in a group stage.
They may be useless from Staphanos perspective, but part of participating in a tournament is playing the number of games you've agreed to, regardless of your own results. If this was a singular event, no one would think twice about it. Just as sheths forfeit in todays EG MSSCL (or whatever it's called) is overlooked without trouble. But Stephano is making a habit of it. If there's a backlash because of it, I think he has brought it on himself.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
Forfeiting like he did at ONOG is perfectly normal and an acceptable way to behave yourself in professional competitive gaming. Only the naive, and frankly ignorant, people in this community tend to think that forfeiting is "OMG BM".
It is much less respectable and honest what the organizers did, i.e saying "whatever we're just putting him 4th even if in the rules it's fine to forfeit, so we still have 2 hours of games we can show, get more views because of the drama, more money from the ads, and we'll just let the retarded community dump the shame on Stephano".
The NASL games were useless once the 8 qualified players were decided.
The Iron Squid games were useless just like the NASL ones. It is pretty clear why would someone want to forfeit the last match in a group stage.
A number of NBA games are 'useless' but will still be played.
On April 04 2012 05:25 TaKemE wrote: Well this is going to keep happen when tournaments got games where there is nothing to win (if that is the case here).
Some tournaments like MLG and IGN have fixed this problem.
The game isn't pointless as far as I see. Following situation:
Jjakji 2 - 0 Stephano MMA 0 - 2 Stephano Mana 0 - 2 Life
means Jjakji and Life advance (as far as I see). Stephano forfeiting his match means MMA will advance 100%. Even if your out atleast play your matches if the outcome affects other people. How someone can compare this to Naniwa - Nestea is beyond me.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
Forfeiting like he did at ONOG is perfectly normal and an acceptable way to behave yourself in professional competitive gaming. Only the naive, and frankly ignorant, people in this community tend to think that forfeiting is "OMG BM".
It is much less respectable and honest what the organizers did, i.e saying "whatever we're just putting him 4th even if in the rules it's fine to forfeit, so we still have 2 hours of games we can show, get more views because of the drama, more money from the ads, and we'll just let the retarded community dump the shame on Stephano".
The NASL games were useless once the 8 qualified players were decided.
The Iron Squid games were useless just like the NASL ones. It is pretty clear why would someone want to forfeit the last match in a group stage.
In no way is it acceptable professional behaviour to commit to playing X number of games in a tournament, and then refuse to play them because you don't see the point or you're too tired from committing to multiple tournaments at the same time or you just can't be bothered. It's irresponsible, dishonest and childish.
You're screwing the tournament organisers who put their time, energy and money into setting up the games; you're screwing their sponsors who pledged money based on the promise that the games would be played; you're screwing your sponsors who finance you and your team on the basis that you play games and get their name out there; you're screwing your team who worked to get you these opportunities and now risk having their reputation badly damaged; and most of all you're disillussioning the fans who support all of the aforementioned group and are the reason that you can make a living playing a computer game. There are a lot of people, amateur and professional, who put a lot of work and money into making this industry work, and things like this, if it became comon practice, undermine all of it.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
Forfeiting like he did at ONOG is perfectly normal and an acceptable way to behave yourself in professional competitive gaming. Only the naive, and frankly ignorant, people in this community tend to think that forfeiting is "OMG BM".
It is much less respectable and honest what the organizers did, i.e saying "whatever we're just putting him 4th even if in the rules it's fine to forfeit, so we still have 2 hours of games we can show, get more views because of the drama, more money from the ads, and we'll just let the retarded community dump the shame on Stephano".
The NASL games were useless once the 8 qualified players were decided.
The Iron Squid games were useless just like the NASL ones. It is pretty clear why would someone want to forfeit the last match in a group stage.
You are an ignorant Kid, nothing more! Forfeiting is a sign of professionalism? More like the exact opposite. In EVERY professional sports a scheduled match is gonna be played, even if it doesn't has any influence on the outcome of the tournament/league. Why? Because the broadcaster wants to have content for broadcasting. No content, no broadcast, no money, no future tournaments! It's that easy. Stephano and any other "Pro Gamer" behaving like this is truly ruining esports, because it shows a lack of maturity. Who sponsors an ignorant Kid, that only plays if it's in the right mood and gives a fuck about tournament organisation, teams and sponsors? Of course he uses his popularity here to get away without punishment. But I really hope that tournament organisators think twice before inviting him in the future!
I'm going to take this opportunity to complain a little about the group elimination format.
This happens ALOT in group elimination:
Player A has to play Player B. Player B is eliminated from the group. Player B has no reason to keep playing his best since he knows he's eliminated.
Player A has to play Player C last. Player A has 2-0'd all his previous opponents. Player A has no reason to keep playing his best since he's locked as 1st in the group.
Result: bad games all around.
A recent incident that showcases the problem is the GOMTV Invitational. Naniwa probe rushed vs. Nestea after both were eliminated from group play. He did it because - in his own words - he was disappointed with not advancing and saw no reason to play his best after that.
While players are - and have to be - held up to the standard of continuing to play their best whatever the other results from group play, as a matter of practicality, group elimination disincentivizes good play after elimination, and leaves the matter strictly to the player's own professionalism, which for eSports, isn't sufficient to prevent incidents of this nature. That said, when it does occur, the onus of repsonsibility lies with the player, not the organizer. By signing up to a tournament with group elimination, a player enters into a professional contract, and his behaviors therein reflects his professional character.
However, I think it is the onus of organizers to appreciate that there are alternatives to group elimination, which when implemented, has the effect of encouraging good play.
---
Monetized Group Elimination: The first of these is a simple modification of group elimination. The same format is followed, but every Bo3 the player wins provides a moderate amount of money. The financial incentive gives players reason to play after their spot in the group is locked.
The downside is that this system requires extra money for the group stages, and depending on the amount alotted, does not ensure that high-earning players give a damn.
Group Double Elimination: There are a number of schemes for making group elimination a seeding system instead of an elimination system. The best example is the one employed by MLG, where the group stages follow a double elimination format that seed players, based on their group standings, into the final elimination bracket of the tournament. As every group standing matters in this format, players are incentivized to play their best every match.
A downside to this sytem is that the group stage matches matter less in the overall scheme of the tournament, since there is no elimination involved. Monetizing elimination bracket seeding is a way to resolve this issue, thus combining group double elimination with monetized group elimination. The other downside is that this draws a tournament out - a lot of matches have to be played, making it not ideal for time strapped tournaments.
---
I think that SC 2 tournament organizers have to stop using group elimination as is in tournaments. Which solution is implemented depends on the tournament and its parameters. All in all, I think the final solution to group elimination - used by MLG - is the best solution when appropriate for the tournament's schedule, but that every solution there is preferrable to basic group elimination in SC 2.
Terrible that Stephano forfeited. This was a major French tournament, and I'm sure many people would have wanted to see France's hometown hero put up a good fight. What a shame.
I am disappointed. All players have an obligation to fulfill their games. I remember similar things happened in NASL where numerous players did not complete their games once they were mathematically eliminated.
When was this particular game scheduled? Weren't these games played weeks ago? Has Iron Squid known about this, all this time?
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
Forfeiting like he did at ONOG is perfectly normal and an acceptable way to behave yourself in professional competitive gaming. Only the naive, and frankly ignorant, people in this community tend to think that forfeiting is "OMG BM".
It is much less respectable and honest what the organizers did, i.e saying "whatever we're just putting him 4th even if in the rules it's fine to forfeit, so we still have 2 hours of games we can show, get more views because of the drama, more money from the ads, and we'll just let the retarded community dump the shame on Stephano".
The NASL games were useless once the 8 qualified players were decided.
The Iron Squid games were useless just like the NASL ones. It is pretty clear why would someone want to forfeit the last match in a group stage.
A number of NBA games are 'useless' but will still be played.
Obviously pro gamers win as much cash per games as a NBA player.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
Forfeiting like he did at ONOG is perfectly normal and an acceptable way to behave yourself in professional competitive gaming. Only the naive, and frankly ignorant, people in this community tend to think that forfeiting is "OMG BM".
It is much less respectable and honest what the organizers did, i.e saying "whatever we're just putting him 4th even if in the rules it's fine to forfeit, so we still have 2 hours of games we can show, get more views because of the drama, more money from the ads, and we'll just let the retarded community dump the shame on Stephano".
The NASL games were useless once the 8 qualified players were decided.
The Iron Squid games were useless just like the NASL ones. It is pretty clear why would someone want to forfeit the last match in a group stage.
A number of NBA games are 'useless' but will still be played.
Obviously pro gamers win as much cash per games as a NBA player.
Forfeiting matches hurts the tournaments (I bet a ton of people would have tuned in to see him play against MMA) and therefore wont help pro gamers to increase the price money and their earnings.
Just for clarification: Is Stephano still in the tournament, or completely disqualified? The news post by Iron Squid only explicitly says that Stephano was disqualified for the Bo3 against MMA, but later uses the phrase "4 remaining competitors". Looking at the scores, it seems that if Stephano is indeed still in the tournament, he could still advance by beating Jjakji.
Also, MMA is a lock for the next round, and even if Jjakji 2-0 Stephano, he still is ahead by Map score, correct?
MaNa is already unable to advance, so there are only 4 contenders left in the group.
Why Stephano keeps doing this I don't know, the guy really plays great games and could take MMA head on no problem, plus this is a french organized tournament... He could learn a thing or two about self-image I guess.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
Forfeiting like he did at ONOG is perfectly normal and an acceptable way to behave yourself in professional competitive gaming. Only the naive, and frankly ignorant, people in this community tend to think that forfeiting is "OMG BM".
It is much less respectable and honest what the organizers did, i.e saying "whatever we're just putting him 4th even if in the rules it's fine to forfeit, so we still have 2 hours of games we can show, get more views because of the drama, more money from the ads, and we'll just let the retarded community dump the shame on Stephano".
The NASL games were useless once the 8 qualified players were decided.
The Iron Squid games were useless just like the NASL ones. It is pretty clear why would someone want to forfeit the last match in a group stage.
A number of NBA games are 'useless' but will still be played.
Obviously pro gamers win as much cash per games as a NBA player.
Obviously NBA players win cash whenever they win games.
Simple, he had no chance to advance because he lost to jjakji earlier on during his slump against terrans, thus nothing to win by playing MMA and everything to lose (either he plays not seriously and it is a poor match, or he plays seriously and risks to give strat info for potential later opponents). Not saying he was morally is right, he could have made 2 7 pools or a drones rush, but that's the risk when you do such long duration online tournaments...sometimes players don't see the point to play and forfeit. It's not like he was paid to play, he was legally right to forfeit, but obviously for the fans it's disappointing.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
Forfeiting like he did at ONOG is perfectly normal and an acceptable way to behave yourself in professional competitive gaming. Only the naive, and frankly ignorant, people in this community tend to think that forfeiting is "OMG BM".
It is much less respectable and honest what the organizers did, i.e saying "whatever we're just putting him 4th even if in the rules it's fine to forfeit, so we still have 2 hours of games we can show, get more views because of the drama, more money from the ads, and we'll just let the retarded community dump the shame on Stephano".
The NASL games were useless once the 8 qualified players were decided.
The Iron Squid games were useless just like the NASL ones. It is pretty clear why would someone want to forfeit the last match in a group stage.
Holy crap this is honestly one of the worst posts I have ever read on this forum. I didn't think a post like this was possible...
On April 04 2012 09:15 IMNasty wrote: so he's forfeited...ONOG, NASL, millenium cup, EG masters cup (for millenium), and now iron squid
:\
He's the boss of the foreign scene. Nobody can do anything to him now. Tournaments line up in front of his door to ask him to participate in their events. Reminds me of when Idra criticized a tournament and people agreed that he can afford to do that because it's their loss not to send him invitation.
Well, appart from my commentary to the pretty silly comment earlier, I do think it's pretty irrespectuous. But more for the team than for any other, because they pay him a fixed salary to play and represent them, which in this tournament, he did neither of. And you know what? Invites suck ass.
It's a standard problem in the competitive scene: teams/tournaments don't hold a candle to players in terms of relevance and popularity. A popular player won't get punished by tournaments because they need players like him to draw viewers. The NBA has a similar problem with the relationship between referees and star players.
On April 04 2012 10:49 CosmicSpiral wrote: It's a standard problem in the competitive scene: teams/tournaments don't hold a candle to players in terms of relevance and popularity. A popular player won't get punished by tournaments because they need players like him to draw viewers. The NBA has a similar problem with the relationship between referees and star players.
Maybe we need teams to enforce discipline? After Coca-Byun, I don't think any player on a Korean team will dare to take a match lightly anymore. Problem is, foreign teams don't really seem to have measures of discipline for their members. I don't think tournaments should punish players, since as you mentioned that tournaments could end up hurting themselves by taking strong stances against players.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
This is the scenario you're drawing: Stephano played vs. Jjakji fairly early in the process, lost, then looked at his loss to Life, thought, am I still going to be able to advance? To make sure, he delayed his match vs. MMA repeatedly in order to see Mana's results. Once he got the results, he decided he was out, and FF.
That's so messed up. First ONOG, then NASL, now Iron Squid. This guy just doesn't learn. Some people just don't see beyond their own ego. I hope the mill manager boxes his ears properly this time.
Forfeiting like he did at ONOG is perfectly normal and an acceptable way to behave yourself in professional competitive gaming. Only the naive, and frankly ignorant, people in this community tend to think that forfeiting is "OMG BM".
It is much less respectable and honest what the organizers did, i.e saying "whatever we're just putting him 4th even if in the rules it's fine to forfeit, so we still have 2 hours of games we can show, get more views because of the drama, more money from the ads, and we'll just let the retarded community dump the shame on Stephano".
The NASL games were useless once the 8 qualified players were decided.
The Iron Squid games were useless just like the NASL ones. It is pretty clear why would someone want to forfeit the last match in a group stage.
You were definitely on Naniwa's side when he did the probe rush, weren't you?
im really not surprised at all to hear stephano forfeiting. he just doesnt seem like a person who is committed to SC2. you gotta be fully in or not, cant half ass it, just like everything else in this world. fortunately for stephano, he has school to fall back on.
On April 04 2012 10:49 CosmicSpiral wrote: It's a standard problem in the competitive scene: teams/tournaments don't hold a candle to players in terms of relevance and popularity. A popular player won't get punished by tournaments because they need players like him to draw viewers. The NBA has a similar problem with the relationship between referees and star players.
Maybe we need teams to enforce discipline? After Coca-Byun, I don't think any player on a Korean team will dare to take a match lightly anymore. Problem is, foreign teams don't really seem to have measures of discipline for their members. I don't think tournaments should punish players, since as you mentioned that tournaments could end up hurting themselves by taking strong stances against players.
The two main differences between the Korean competitive scene and foreigner competitive scene are the collectivist bent and the enormous pool of talent. Notice that the main argument in support of Stephano are "the series was meaningless". It automatically assumes that the tournament must provide sufficient incentive for Stephano to play instead Stephano giving the tournament sufficient incentive to invite him into the group stages. By contrast, the Savior cheating scandal always harped on how much damage Savior did to his contemporaries and to the scene.
Coca and Byun are star talents but they are not unique by any stretch of the imagination. In the Iron Squid alone we have a relative nobody who beat Stephano and almost upset Jjakji and MMA, and there are lots of players like him being raised up to the professional level. The foreign scene is much slower in producing new talent and therefore has to value its existing talent even more. Consequently the top level of the Korea scene is in constant flux while the top of the foreign scene is relatively static. Where exactly is Millenium going to pick up a new Stephano if they don't want to tolerate his antics anymore? Not to mention the problems of enforcing discipline when all your players don't live in the same location (which is why international teams spread out across the continent will never produce high-level talent consistently like the Korean model).
Stephano just wanted to dodge MMA... Simple as that... There are people who think Stephano can take MMA straight up?
And Stephano doesn't want to show his strategies? He has played over 30 competitive games in March, 2 more games is going to hurt him? Honestly, I understand why he doesn't want to play in GSL. Easier for him to play in foreign tournaments. Must have been upset when col signed Ganzi and liquid signed Taeja...
These are all facts indeed, but this doesn't tell the whole story at all. Anyway, being french and supporting (until today at least) Stephano against these 2 koreans monsters I'm also really disappointed. Still hoping there is a good reason. If not, I just hope he gets what he deserves.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
Aren't the games supposed to be broadcasted live this time ?? I heard that from Pomf & Thud last time.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
Aren't the games supposed to be broadcasted live this time ?? I heard that from Pomf & Thud last time.
They probably mean live in studio rather than prerecorded broadcasts? Not sure, doubt they will be able to get timezones working well (especially with Jjakji and Stephano and MMA at IPL4)
On April 04 2012 13:10 vthree wrote: Stephano just wanted to dodge MMA... Simple as that... There are people who think Stephano can take MMA straight up?
And Stephano doesn't want to show his strategies? He has played over 30 competitive games in March, 2 more games is going to hurt him? Honestly, I understand why he doesn't want to play in GSL. Easier for him to play in foreign tournaments. Must have been upset when col signed Ganzi and liquid signed Taeja...
Great theory!
Actually, just like how he wanted to dodge Naniwa. But that time he tried to bluff and got called.
On April 04 2012 13:10 vthree wrote: Stephano just wanted to dodge MMA... Simple as that... There are people who think Stephano can take MMA straight up?
And Stephano doesn't want to show his strategies? He has played over 30 competitive games in March, 2 more games is going to hurt him? Honestly, I understand why he doesn't want to play in GSL. Easier for him to play in foreign tournaments. Must have been upset when col signed Ganzi and liquid signed Taeja...
Why would you dodge someone you are the underdog against? I could see him trying to dodge a match with a random NA GM, because he is expected to win, but in the small chance he loses, Stephano would take a lot of ridicule. Stephano is the underdog against MMA, and most people do not expect him to win. He has very little to lose and a lot of respect to be gained.
But then again, I am not Stephano, so I don't know his exact rationale for his actions.
On April 04 2012 07:32 Ylrahc wrote: Simple, he had no chance to advance because he lost to jjakji earlier on during his slump against terrans, thus nothing to win by playing MMA and everything to lose (either he plays not seriously and it is a poor match, or he plays seriously and risks to give strat info for potential later opponents). Not saying he was morally is right, he could have made 2 7 pools or a drones rush, but that's the risk when you do such long duration online tournaments...sometimes players don't see the point to play and forfeit. It's not like he was paid to play, he was legally right to forfeit, but obviously for the fans it's disappointing.
When did he lose to Jjakji o_o? I don't see it anywhere
Well... this gives MMA somewhat of an unfair advantage. Stephano should be DQ'ed for not holding up to his commitment and all his games should be made obsolete.
On April 04 2012 04:38 catplanetcatplanet wrote: So basically Life is out as well? Doe Stephano forfeit all his matches?
Well, yes, even if he beats Mana and Stephano win against Jjackji ( don't count on that ), he will be out.
Actually no, if Stephano beats Jjajki and Life 2-0s Mana or if Stephano 2-0s Jjakji and Life beats Mana, life is through with MMA since mapscore is counted first
True, my bad, but If Stephano forfeits against MMA, i don't think he won against Jjackji, we'll see tomorrow but it's pretty clear.
Aren't the games supposed to be broadcasted live this time ?? I heard that from Pomf & Thud last time.
They probably mean live in studio rather than prerecorded broadcasts? Not sure, doubt they will be able to get timezones working well (especially with Jjakji and Stephano and MMA at IPL4)
Oh I see. Or maybe the contrary (ie games are playing live while they comment, then this is broadcasted later). But indeed, the broadcast starting at 4am in Korea, this may a bit too hard to do. Well if they are all in Vegas though, it will be something like 12 AM in the area so more acceptable.
Anyway what is sure is that Stephano is gonna get a lot of haters, and should think about changing his behavior/manner/scheduling.
On April 04 2012 07:32 Ylrahc wrote: Simple, he had no chance to advance because he lost to jjakji earlier on during his slump against terrans, thus nothing to win by playing MMA and everything to lose (either he plays not seriously and it is a poor match, or he plays seriously and risks to give strat info for potential later opponents). Not saying he was morally is right, he could have made 2 7 pools or a drones rush, but that's the risk when you do such long duration online tournaments...sometimes players don't see the point to play and forfeit. It's not like he was paid to play, he was legally right to forfeit, but obviously for the fans it's disappointing.
When did he lose to Jjakji o_o? I don't see it anywhere
It is not sure yet if he lost and I don't think anyone even knows if they have actually played already, but this theory has unfortunately some good probability to be true.
On April 04 2012 07:32 Ylrahc wrote: Simple, he had no chance to advance because he lost to jjakji earlier on during his slump against terrans, thus nothing to win by playing MMA and everything to lose (either he plays not seriously and it is a poor match, or he plays seriously and risks to give strat info for potential later opponents). Not saying he was morally is right, he could have made 2 7 pools or a drones rush, but that's the risk when you do such long duration online tournaments...sometimes players don't see the point to play and forfeit. It's not like he was paid to play, he was legally right to forfeit, but obviously for the fans it's disappointing.
When did he lose to Jjakji o_o? I don't see it anywhere
It is not sure yet if he lost and I don't think anyone even knows if they have actually played already, but this theory has unfortunately some good probability to be true.
if i understand the format correctly, the games have been played (with the exception of the stephano-MMA match). they just haven't been 'casted or shown.
Stephano not showing to another one of his matches? Not a surprise. He is such a good player but I don't consider myself a fan because of how often he doesn't show for matches. Dude, your a pro-gamer (at least for this year), so why don't you act like one.
On April 04 2012 15:46 Ketch wrote: Well... this gives MMA somewhat of an unfair advantage. Stephano should be DQ'ed for not holding up to his commitment and all his games should be made obsolete.
It probably didn't matter anyway... but hey...
It would matter, for example Mana would still have chance to advance.
On April 04 2012 07:32 Ylrahc wrote: Simple, he had no chance to advance because he lost to jjakji earlier on during his slump against terrans, thus nothing to win by playing MMA and everything to lose (either he plays not seriously and it is a poor match, or he plays seriously and risks to give strat info for potential later opponents). Not saying he was morally is right, he could have made 2 7 pools or a drones rush, but that's the risk when you do such long duration online tournaments...sometimes players don't see the point to play and forfeit. It's not like he was paid to play, he was legally right to forfeit, but obviously for the fans it's disappointing.
When did he lose to Jjakji o_o? I don't see it anywhere
It is not sure yet if he lost and I don't think anyone even knows if they have actually played already, but this theory has unfortunately some good probability to be true.
if i understand the format correctly, the games have been played (with the exception of the stephano-MMA match). they just haven't been 'casted or shown.
On April 04 2012 17:14 DisillusionedAcronym wrote:
On April 04 2012 17:01 samurai80 wrote:
On April 04 2012 15:31 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2012 07:32 Ylrahc wrote: Simple, he had no chance to advance because he lost to jjakji earlier on during his slump against terrans, thus nothing to win by playing MMA and everything to lose (either he plays not seriously and it is a poor match, or he plays seriously and risks to give strat info for potential later opponents). Not saying he was morally is right, he could have made 2 7 pools or a drones rush, but that's the risk when you do such long duration online tournaments...sometimes players don't see the point to play and forfeit. It's not like he was paid to play, he was legally right to forfeit, but obviously for the fans it's disappointing.
When did he lose to Jjakji o_o? I don't see it anywhere
It is not sure yet if he lost and I don't think anyone even knows if they have actually played already, but this theory has unfortunately some good probability to be true.
if i understand the format correctly, the games have been played (with the exception of the stephano-MMA match). they just haven't been 'casted or shown.
But you know when ?
Stephano vs life = 29/02/2012 Stephano vs Jjakji = 04/03/2012
On April 04 2012 15:46 Ketch wrote: Well... this gives MMA somewhat of an unfair advantage. Stephano should be DQ'ed for not holding up to his commitment and all his games should be made obsolete.
It probably didn't matter anyway... but hey...
It would matter, for example Mana would still have chance to advance.
There are several possible scenarii actually. What if Stephano just forfeited because he was actually already qualified for the next round ?? I know it's kind of weird and it's more likely that he lost and wasn't qualified. But for instance if : Jjakji loses to Stephano 0-2 Life loses to Mana 0-2 Knowing that, Stephano forfeit against MMA (=0-2) We would have a 3 ways 2-2 tie and the points would be : (matches / sets) MMA 3-1 / 7-3 Stephano 2-2 / 5-4 Jjakji 2-2 / 4-5 Mana 2-2 / 4-5 (+ match lost against Jjakji) Life 1-3 / 4-7
and Stephano would be already qualified.
But well, I suppose this is unreal, but this is still a possible scenario if I'm not wrong.
On April 04 2012 17:14 DisillusionedAcronym wrote:
On April 04 2012 17:01 samurai80 wrote:
On April 04 2012 15:31 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2012 07:32 Ylrahc wrote: Simple, he had no chance to advance because he lost to jjakji earlier on during his slump against terrans, thus nothing to win by playing MMA and everything to lose (either he plays not seriously and it is a poor match, or he plays seriously and risks to give strat info for potential later opponents). Not saying he was morally is right, he could have made 2 7 pools or a drones rush, but that's the risk when you do such long duration online tournaments...sometimes players don't see the point to play and forfeit. It's not like he was paid to play, he was legally right to forfeit, but obviously for the fans it's disappointing.
When did he lose to Jjakji o_o? I don't see it anywhere
It is not sure yet if he lost and I don't think anyone even knows if they have actually played already, but this theory has unfortunately some good probability to be true.
if i understand the format correctly, the games have been played (with the exception of the stephano-MMA match). they just haven't been 'casted or shown.
But you know when ?
Stephano vs life = 29/02/2012 Stephano vs Jjakji = 04/03/2012
Sorry to insist but how do u know that ? Is it reliable ?
On April 04 2012 17:14 DisillusionedAcronym wrote:
On April 04 2012 17:01 samurai80 wrote:
On April 04 2012 15:31 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2012 07:32 Ylrahc wrote: Simple, he had no chance to advance because he lost to jjakji earlier on during his slump against terrans, thus nothing to win by playing MMA and everything to lose (either he plays not seriously and it is a poor match, or he plays seriously and risks to give strat info for potential later opponents). Not saying he was morally is right, he could have made 2 7 pools or a drones rush, but that's the risk when you do such long duration online tournaments...sometimes players don't see the point to play and forfeit. It's not like he was paid to play, he was legally right to forfeit, but obviously for the fans it's disappointing.
When did he lose to Jjakji o_o? I don't see it anywhere
It is not sure yet if he lost and I don't think anyone even knows if they have actually played already, but this theory has unfortunately some good probability to be true.
if i understand the format correctly, the games have been played (with the exception of the stephano-MMA match). they just haven't been 'casted or shown.
But you know when ?
Stephano vs life = 29/02/2012 Stephano vs Jjakji = 04/03/2012
Sorry to insist but how do u know that ? Is it reliable ?
Games were played when Stephano was in France, and obviously game were played on the american server against the korean guys !
Stephano never play cross server unless it is necessary, so early march, just looked at Stephano's history on the US Server and saw the results. To find the exact opponent was not very difficult.
On April 04 2012 15:46 Ketch wrote: Well... this gives MMA somewhat of an unfair advantage. Stephano should be DQ'ed for not holding up to his commitment and all his games should be made obsolete.
It probably didn't matter anyway... but hey...
It would matter, for example Mana would still have chance to advance.
There are several possible scenarii actually. What if Stephano just forfeited because he was actually already qualified for the next round ?? I know it's kind of weird and it's more likely that he lost and wasn't qualified. But for instance if : Jjakji loses to Stephano 0-2 Life loses to Mana 0-2 Knowing that, Stephano forfeit against MMA (=0-2) We would have a 3 ways 2-2 tie and the points would be : (matches / sets) MMA 3-1 / 7-3 Stephano 2-2 / 5-4 Jjakji 2-2 / 4-5 Mana 2-2 / 4-5 (+ match lost against Jjakji) Life 1-3 / 4-7
and Stephano would be already qualified.
But well, I suppose this is unreal, but this is still a possible scenario if I'm not wrong.
Actually even this would be ok for Stephano to qualify : Jjakji loses to Stephano 1-2 Life loses to Mana 1-2 MMA 3-1 / 7-3 Stephano 2-2 / 5-5 (+ match won against Jjakji) Jjakji 2-2 / 5-5 Mana 2-2 / 4-6 Life 1-3 / 5-7
On April 04 2012 17:14 DisillusionedAcronym wrote:
On April 04 2012 17:01 samurai80 wrote:
On April 04 2012 15:31 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2012 07:32 Ylrahc wrote: Simple, he had no chance to advance because he lost to jjakji earlier on during his slump against terrans, thus nothing to win by playing MMA and everything to lose (either he plays not seriously and it is a poor match, or he plays seriously and risks to give strat info for potential later opponents). Not saying he was morally is right, he could have made 2 7 pools or a drones rush, but that's the risk when you do such long duration online tournaments...sometimes players don't see the point to play and forfeit. It's not like he was paid to play, he was legally right to forfeit, but obviously for the fans it's disappointing.
When did he lose to Jjakji o_o? I don't see it anywhere
It is not sure yet if he lost and I don't think anyone even knows if they have actually played already, but this theory has unfortunately some good probability to be true.
if i understand the format correctly, the games have been played (with the exception of the stephano-MMA match). they just haven't been 'casted or shown.
But you know when ?
Stephano vs life = 29/02/2012 Stephano vs Jjakji = 04/03/2012
Sorry to insist but how do u know that ? Is it reliable ?
Games were played when Stephano was in France, and obviously game were played on the american server against the korean guys !
Stephano never play cross server unless it is necessary, so early march, just looked at Stephano's history on the US Server and saw the results. To find the exact opponent was not very difficult.
On April 04 2012 15:46 Ketch wrote: Well... this gives MMA somewhat of an unfair advantage. Stephano should be DQ'ed for not holding up to his commitment and all his games should be made obsolete.
It probably didn't matter anyway... but hey...
It would matter, for example Mana would still have chance to advance.
There are several possible scenarii actually. What if Stephano just forfeited because he was actually already qualified for the next round ?? I know it's kind of weird and it's more likely that he lost and wasn't qualified. But for instance if : Jjakji loses to Stephano 0-2 Life loses to Mana 0-2 Knowing that, Stephano forfeit against MMA (=0-2) We would have a 3 ways 2-2 tie and the points would be : (matches / sets) MMA 3-1 / 7-3 Stephano 2-2 / 5-4 Jjakji 2-2 / 4-5 Mana 2-2 / 4-5 (+ match lost against Jjakji) Life 1-3 / 4-7
and Stephano would be already qualified.
But well, I suppose this is unreal, but this is still a possible scenario if I'm not wrong.
Actually even this would be ok for Stephano to qualify : Jjakji loses to Stephano 1-2 Life loses to Mana 1-2 MMA 3-1 / 7-3 Stephano 2-2 / 5-5 (+ match won against Jjakji) Jjakji 2-2 / 5-5 Mana 2-2 / 4-6 Life 1-3 / 5-7
No. Stephano's matches still count for others but according to the article he has lost his chance to make it out of the group. So in those scenarios Jjakji will advance.
That was the 3-base +2/+2 ling infestor baneling timing Stephano developed with Dimaga. It failed because Jjakji took an early third and had way too many units by the point the timing came.
He cut a lot of drones for this, so he's basically dead.
On April 05 2012 04:25 TaKemE wrote: How old is this replay?
A month.
They had to schedule 4 groups with players from each region and have replays in time to pre-record (best way to do it given caster commitments internationally).
Things for the brackets will be pretty current and I believe casts will be live (not pre-rec).
On April 05 2012 04:25 TaKemE wrote: How old is this replay?
A month.
They had to schedule 4 groups with players from each region and have replays in time to pre-record (best way to do it given caster commitments internationally).
Things for the brackets will be pretty current and I believe casts will be live (not pre-rec).
Then semis/finals will be offline in France.
Brackets are all going to be Korean. Scheduling is easy in that case, but I won't be watching.
On April 05 2012 04:25 TaKemE wrote: How old is this replay?
A month.
They had to schedule 4 groups with players from each region and have replays in time to pre-record (best way to do it given caster commitments internationally).
Things for the brackets will be pretty current and I believe casts will be live (not pre-rec).
Then semis/finals will be offline in France.
Brackets are all going to be Korean. Scheduling is easy in that case, but I won't be watching.
Good for you, I'll be watching and loving it (I think Nerchio can make out of his group given cross server games too).
But yeah scheduling shouldn't be a problem from here on out, just the reason some of the games are old is because it's a first iteration tournament (not sure if there will be sequels) that has to accodomate other bigger more established events.
What infuriates me is Naniwa's probe rush in a game that was inconsequential to BOTH players got more of a shitstorm than a forfeit that affects one player's ranking. Despicable.
Is it just me or this tournament is the hardest ever to follow? It looks like it's being played whenever they want to etc. +Replay rebroadcasted tournaments feel like they are some level below live ones.
On April 05 2012 04:33 adiga wrote: Is it just me or this tournament is hardest ever to follow? It looks like it's being played whenever they want to etc.
By whenever they want do you mean consistent and the same time every single week, a group at a time?
On April 05 2012 04:30 Falconblade wrote: What infuriates me is Naniwa's probe rush in a game that was inconsequential to BOTH players got more of a shitstorm than a forfeit that affects one player's ranking. Despicable.
You can create a shitstorm about this if it makes you feel better. You can put it alongside the ones for Sheth and Dimaga who also forfeited games recently with no-shows.
On April 05 2012 04:24 Kubricks wrote: Holy shit, Jjakji is like Polt 2.0 vs. Stephano.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jjakji is currently considered much higher caliber than Polt. So, well, obviously.
That's true but it should be taken with a grain of salt considering how much Polt has done to raise his own stock in the past few months. I suppose if the two should meet at IPL4 this weekend, we'll have a more appropriate estimation.
On April 05 2012 04:33 adiga wrote: Is it just me or this tournament is hardest ever to follow? It looks like it's being played whenever they want to etc.
By whenever they want do you mean consistent and the same time every single week, a group at a time?
Because that's how it actually is
rofl <3
I don't see how anyone can have scheduling complaints, it is completely spelled out in the OP for each groups schedule and we've been wed/sun at the same time for months lol
On April 05 2012 04:24 Kubricks wrote: Holy shit, Jjakji is like Polt 2.0 vs. Stephano.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jjakji is currently considered much higher caliber than Polt. So, well, obviously.
That's true but it should be taken with a grain of salt considering how much Polt has done to raise his own stock in the past few months. I suppose if the two should meet at IPL4 this weekend, we'll have a more appropriate estimation.
Jjakji 3-1'd Polt in the IPL Tournament of Champions recently.
If in doubt I'd always consider results in Korea to be > results outside of it.
On April 05 2012 04:24 Kubricks wrote: Holy shit, Jjakji is like Polt 2.0 vs. Stephano.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jjakji is currently considered much higher caliber than Polt. So, well, obviously.
That's true but it should be taken with a grain of salt considering how much Polt has done to raise his own stock in the past few months. I suppose if the two should meet at IPL4 this weekend, we'll have a more appropriate estimation.
Wouldn't mind seeing that matchup, but even then it wouldn't conclusively say who is better. Polt has decent TvT, but Jjakji's TvT is relatively weak. Polt's TvZ is not his best MU, whereas Jjakji's TvZ is very strong. It's like having Inca play MC to see who is a better player. Inca has a good chance to win, but most people would agree that MC is the better player.
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
jjakji build 2 CCs with 1rax outside of his base you can't be more greedy, and of course thats risky, and should lose to roach/bane unless miscontrolled
Always nice to see Stephano get beat down, but it is a shame Stephano completely blew off this tournament by forfeiting against MMA. I know a lot of French fans and definitely the organizers cannot be happy with their country's star player not taking this up-start French organization seriously. I can only hope the fans don't punish Iron Squid when the live portion is filled with only Koreans.
On April 05 2012 04:42 Dekkers wrote: French commentators are CLEARLY angry at Stephano because of the forfeit, you can feel it in the comments.
And they are totally right.
I'd be disappointed too if the star player from my home country forfeits a major tournament run by my countrymen.
God damn, Stephano didn't even stand a chance against Jjakji there, and probably would have gotten crushed even worse by MMA. Congrats Jjakji for advancing.
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
exactly. The scouting is clearly one of his weak points. The second weak point was also exploited in the 1st game. It's the fact Stephano do not usually / can't push on 2 bases.
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
exactly. The scouting is clearly one of his weak points. The second weak point was also exploited in the 1st game. It's the fact Stephano do not usually / can't push on 2 bases.
Hope at least this will be a good lesson for him when (if) he sees the replays. But well, every player has some upset like this and there is no reason it doesn't happen to Stephano. No reason to blame him here.
But what I also hope is that he will get another good lesson from his manager concerning his forfeit. And hopefully grow up.
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
I have never, ever, ever, posted hate towards Stephano. I have no idea where you even get this notion. I would have even considered myself a fan, though I'm dissuaded from that viewpoint by his recent spate of forfeiting games.
It's just fact that as long as your hellions are effectively containing at his nat that you can get a third CC up and if he tries to push out with roaches you have enough time to react and hold well enough that your third CC means you're stilll more than in the game.
On April 05 2012 04:42 Dekkers wrote: French commentators are CLEARLY angry at Stephano because of the forfeit, you can feel it in the comments.
And they are totally right.
I'd be disappointed too if the star player from my home country forfeits a major tournament run by my countrymen.
God damn, Stephano didn't even stand a chance against Jjakji there, and probably would have gotten crushed even worse by MMA. Congrats Jjakji for advancing.
Yeah, and we French have to bear with the usual "surrending jokes" and all... Not like i'm particulary sensitive about that, but man so much hype for this tournament, so much hype to probably see him in Paris and he didn't even fight till the end.
And what a shame for Millenium...the match was delayed over and over, and Slayers staff was realy profesional for that, and yet Stephano didn't fight.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5) Life 2-2 (6-5) Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
so jkajki and life would advanced.
Stephano only won against a 20 hours jetlagged korean. but being roflstomped against other koreans.
I really don't see him doing a good performance at IPL4
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5) Life 2-2 (6-5) Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
so jkajki and life would advanced.
Stephano only won against a 20 hours jetlagged korean. but being roflstomped against other koreans.
I really don't see him doing a good performance at IPL4
If you mean Polt by the "20 hours jetlagged korean", he was in texas 3 or 4 days before Lone Star Clash.
Gg Jjakji and MMA, Stephano wouldn't have a chance against MMA so the forfeit doesn't change anything on the final group result.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Stephano didn't forfeit.
That's what people are missing.
He didn't forfeit.
He was disqualified by Iron Squid for repeatedly delaying his match vs. MMA and not being able to make scheduled times.
It was a def. loss - and it changes the scenario, because Stephano had the opportunity to know what happened in the rest of the group from Mana before his decision.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Stephano didn't forfeit.
That's what people are missing.
He didn't forfeit.
He was disqualified by Iron Squid for repeatedly delaying his match vs. MMA and not being able to make scheduled times.
It was a def. loss due to scheduling - and it changes the scenario, because Stephano had the opportunity to know what happened in the rest of the group from Mana before his decision.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5) Life 2-2 (6-5) Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
so jkajki and life would advanced.
Stephano only won against a 20 hours jetlagged korean. but being roflstomped against other koreans.
I really don't see him doing a good performance at IPL4
If you mean Polt by the "20 hours jetlagged korean", he was in texas 3 or 4 days before Lone Star Clash.
Gg Jjakji and MMA, Stephano wouldn't have a chance against MMA so the forfeit doesn't change anything on the final group result.
polt arrived friday march 16 game was sunday march 18
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
Sure I can tell you what you did wrong....thinking stephano had a chance to 2-0 MMA.
That's not the point, forfeiting if he can qualify is terrible, forfeiting if he can't is less terrible =)
Disagree. If forfeiting completely removes the opportunity for someone else to qualify, no matter how slim, it is just as terrible.
Poor Life still had an outside shot =(
Ha yeah, if that influence another player, he has to play it.but it happened with him already in...Assembly or Dreamhack, in groupstage he just forfeited his last match so someone got a freewin.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5) Life 2-2 (6-5) Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
so jkajki and life would advanced.
Stephano only won against a 20 hours jetlagged korean. but being roflstomped against other koreans.
I really don't see him doing a good performance at IPL4
If you mean Polt by the "20 hours jetlagged korean", he was in texas 3 or 4 days before Lone Star Clash.
Gg Jjakji and MMA, Stephano wouldn't have a chance against MMA so the forfeit doesn't change anything on the final group result.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Obviously not impossible but highly unlikely imo. I agree though, he should have at least tried.
He wouldnt advance, it would be this map score: MMA 5-5 Life 6-5 Stephano 5-4
If map score comes first then MMA would be out and then head to head life beat Stephano so he would make it though.
Ya I know that. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have tried to beat MMA. Everyone else in the group tried their best to win their games. It makes it unfair to life that stephano didn't at least try to beat MMA.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5) Life 2-2 (6-5) Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
so jkajki and life would advanced.
Stephano only won against a 20 hours jetlagged korean. but being roflstomped against other koreans.
I really don't see him doing a good performance at IPL4
If you mean Polt by the "20 hours jetlagged korean", he was in texas 3 or 4 days before Lone Star Clash.
Gg Jjakji and MMA, Stephano wouldn't have a chance against MMA so the forfeit doesn't change anything on the final group result.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5) Life 2-2 (6-5) Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
so jkajki and life would advanced.
Stephano only won against a 20 hours jetlagged korean. but being roflstomped against other koreans.
I really don't see him doing a good performance at IPL4
If you mean Polt by the "20 hours jetlagged korean", he was in texas 3 or 4 days before Lone Star Clash.
Gg Jjakji and MMA, Stephano wouldn't have a chance against MMA so the forfeit doesn't change anything on the final group result.
polt arrived friday march 16 game was sunday march 18
20 hours of jetlag in 2 days is really relevant.
I regularly travel between the U.S. and China, and I'd say it really depends on how well you rest on the plane. I'd assume the players all travel on economy class so a good rest is impossible. It might take 3 or 5 days to fully recover.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5) Life 2-2 (6-5) Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
so jkajki and life would advanced.
Stephano only won against a 20 hours jetlagged korean. but being roflstomped against other koreans.
I really don't see him doing a good performance at IPL4
If you mean Polt by the "20 hours jetlagged korean", he was in texas 3 or 4 days before Lone Star Clash.
Gg Jjakji and MMA, Stephano wouldn't have a chance against MMA so the forfeit doesn't change anything on the final group result.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5) Life 2-2 (6-5) Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
so jkajki and life would advanced.
Stephano only won against a 20 hours jetlagged korean. but being roflstomped against other koreans.
I really don't see him doing a good performance at IPL4
If you mean Polt by the "20 hours jetlagged korean", he was in texas 3 or 4 days before Lone Star Clash.
Gg Jjakji and MMA, Stephano wouldn't have a chance against MMA so the forfeit doesn't change anything on the final group result.
polt arrived friday march 16 game was sunday march 18
20 hours of jetlag in 2 days is really relevant.
Well anyone who saw Stephano vs Polt previous matches (and there were quite many recently) would say their games were really close, so yes Stephano is able to beat good korean terrans, but not if he don't adapt to someone like Jjakji who himself adapted so well to Stephano play.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Well even if admitting a player has the right to forfeit a game, the problem in the present case is that Stephano did not even forfeit. He didn't show up for the match, and after delaying the match too much, was finally disqualified = declared forfeit. If no real good reason, this is just really bm imo.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Ahh, yes. It's not as if he has a job as a progamer with sponsors who expect him to act with a teeny tiny bit of professionalism since... well y'know... they're his employers and all that.
sorry, but if you accept an invitation to a tournament, you should fulfill your "duty" to play all games if possible. Of course there is no law in place or some kind of contract in this case. That's why tournament organizers shouldn't invite players who forget games on a regular basis
It not that first time Stephano decided not to play a scheduled game.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Well even if admitting a player has the right to forfeit a game, the problem in the present case is that Stephano did not even forfeit. He didn't show up for the match, and after delaying the match too much, was finally disqualified = declared forfeit. If no real good reason, this is just really bm imo.
So he doesn't even have the balls to forfeit himself, instead he gave mma and the tournament organizers the runaround and finally decided not to show up for their scheduled match resulting in a default loss?
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Well even if admitting a player has the right to forfeit a game, the problem in the present case is that Stephano did not even forfeit. He didn't show up for the match, and after delaying the match too much, was finally disqualified = declared forfeit. If no real good reason, this is just really bm imo.
So he doesn't even have the balls to forfeit himself, instead he gave mma and the tournament organizers the runaround and finally decided not to show up for their scheduled match resulting in a default loss?
Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5) Life 2-2 (6-5) Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
so jkajki and life would advanced.
Stephano only won against a 20 hours jetlagged korean. but being roflstomped against other koreans.
I really don't see him doing a good performance at IPL4
If you mean Polt by the "20 hours jetlagged korean", he was in texas 3 or 4 days before Lone Star Clash.
Gg Jjakji and MMA, Stephano wouldn't have a chance against MMA so the forfeit doesn't change anything on the final group result.
polt arrived friday march 16 game was sunday march 18
20 hours of jetlag in 2 days is really relevant.
Well anyone who saw Stephano vs Polt previous matches (and there were quite many recently) would say their games were really close, so yes Stephano is able to beat good korean terrans, but not if he don't adapt to someone like Jjakji who himself adapted so well to Stephano play.
Polt got knocked out of Code A last season. Jjackji/MMA is a huge step up.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Ahh, yes. It's not as if he has a job as a progamer with sponsors who expect him to act with a teeny tiny bit of professionalism since... well y'know... they're his employers and all that.
You completely looked passed point and went into some other shit. Anyway, show me where the sponsers specifically said they "expect" him to be professional and then I'll believe you. Last time I checked companies/individuals sponser a player because of their skill not professionalism. Look at Dragon, Gosi[Terran], Idra hell there's a ton of people who pull the same shit but still remain sponsered so you can throw the whole topic of professionalism out the window.
Also, after the whole Millenium/Complexity issue I suspect that Millenium already expects such behavior from Stephano as it has happened before even after this situation.
Millenium then went on to sign Dragon and we all know Dragons reputation. So, I'm sure Millenium is quite aware of this situation beforehand.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Well even if admitting a player has the right to forfeit a game, the problem in the present case is that Stephano did not even forfeit. He didn't show up for the match, and after delaying the match too much, was finally disqualified = declared forfeit. If no real good reason, this is just really bm imo.
Yes, I completely agree with what you said. What he did was clearly BM and I don't think such behavior should be tolerated. My original comment had to do with a player having the right to forfeit a game but this situation is downright distasteful and immaturity at it's finest. If Stephano didn't want to continue, he should have just forfeitted instead of putting on a scene.
stephano 2;0 mma if he did show up? you guys must be dreaming MMA ,Jjakji are by far the best TvZ er, with mvp falling behind mkp might be the 3rd polt's tvz are ok but not great , because he doesn't put early pressure like others and that is also why his style are fun to watch.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Ahh, yes. It's not as if he has a job as a progamer with sponsors who expect him to act with a teeny tiny bit of professionalism since... well y'know... they're his employers and all that.
You completely looked passed point and went into some other shit. Anyway, show me where the sponsers specifically said they "expect" him to be professional and then I'll believe you. Last time I checked companies/individuals sponser a player because of their skill not professionalism. Look at Dragon, Gosi[Terran], Idra hell there's a ton of people who pull the same shit but still remain sponsered so you can throw the whole topic of professionalism out the window.
Also, after the whole Millenium/Complexity issue I suspect that Millenium already expects such behavior from Stephano as it has happened before even after this situation.
Millenium then went on to sign Dragon and we all know Dragons reputation. So, I'm sure Millenium is quite aware of this situation beforehand.
As one can tell from your spelling mistakes and swearing, you realize yourself that the other guy pointed out the obvious flaw in your thinking. Let's still take a look at the one new point you make (not new, actually, more like less rarely used) and show how even that is wrong. You bring out Idra as an example of an unprofessional player. Besides being disrespectful to Idra, you fail to realize that when he forfeited against Nerchio, his managers explicitly called him out on it, and he stopped forfeiting. There's a clear red line on forfeiting games as a progamer, and teams and sponsors do not tolerate it.
On April 05 2012 04:56 habeck wrote: So actually stephano would advanced, if he won against MMA 2-0 Stephano 2-2 (5-4) MMA 2-2 (5-5)
Just tell me if i'm doing something wrong
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Ahh, yes. It's not as if he has a job as a progamer with sponsors who expect him to act with a teeny tiny bit of professionalism since... well y'know... they're his employers and all that.
You completely looked passed point and went into some other shit. Anyway, show me where the sponsers specifically said they "expect" him to be professional and then I'll believe you. Last time I checked companies/individuals sponser a player because of their skill not professionalism. Look at Dragon, Gosi[Terran], Idra hell there's a ton of people who pull the same shit but still remain sponsered so you can throw the whole topic of professionalism out the window.
Also, after the whole Millenium/Complexity issue I suspect that Millenium already expects such behavior from Stephano as it has happened before even after this situation.
Millenium then went on to sign Dragon and we all know Dragons reputation. So, I'm sure Millenium is quite aware of this situation beforehand.
So because they should expect this behavior from him(according to you) that makes it okay? So I guess Millenium pays Stephano to forfeit matches, and because some throw matches it's okay for everybody else to do it? Gotcha! Well if you remembered the last few months of history(don't strain yourself); a team and its sponsors require/expect its players to market their brands and bring good exposure to them. Could perhaps just be me, but I believe that would include playing the matches they have signed up for in the game that is the focus of their current line of work? While not the best pro-players, iNcontroL & NoNy did shed light on the behavioral conduct expected from people who are on a team. While IdrA is a good example, EG's CEO has been forced to call him out and talk to him on his behavior from time to time. While not as often as many would like, he still requires him to adhere to a certain level of professionalism. This has also been demonstrated by teams Prime, SlayerS & Quantic Gaming. But perhaps Millennium simply has lower standards(I hope not for the sake of their reputation) since you did bring up Dragon.
french community is very disapointed, the french caster pomf&thud and their team, are doing very hard work to do this tourney... a lot of french watch their stream, around 7 or 8k viewers, mostly french. And see stephano give up like this... a lot of people was counting on him and for god's sake it's only a BO3, how he couldn't have enough time? He play almost all time -_-
On April 05 2012 05:02 chosenkerrigan wrote: [quote]
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Ahh, yes. It's not as if he has a job as a progamer with sponsors who expect him to act with a teeny tiny bit of professionalism since... well y'know... they're his employers and all that.
You completely looked passed point and went into some other shit. Anyway, show me where the sponsers specifically said they "expect" him to be professional and then I'll believe you. Last time I checked companies/individuals sponser a player because of their skill not professionalism. Look at Dragon, Gosi[Terran], Idra hell there's a ton of people who pull the same shit but still remain sponsered so you can throw the whole topic of professionalism out the window.
Also, after the whole Millenium/Complexity issue I suspect that Millenium already expects such behavior from Stephano as it has happened before even after this situation.
Millenium then went on to sign Dragon and we all know Dragons reputation. So, I'm sure Millenium is quite aware of this situation beforehand.
As one can tell from your spelling mistakes and swearing, you realize yourself that the other guy pointed out the obvious flaw in your thinking. Let's still take a look at the one new point you make (not new, actually, more like less rarely used) and show how even that is wrong. You bring out Idra as an example of an unprofessional player. Besides being disrespectful to Idra, you fail to realize that when he forfeited against Nerchio, his managers explicitly called him out on it, and he stopped forfeiting. There's a clear red line on forfeiting games as a progamer, and teams and sponsors do not tolerate it.
First off, there's no conspicuous flaw in my thinking. Second of all, I don't recall getting grades for "correct spelling" on threads. Also, if that's how you determine intelligence then I feel sorry for you. According to you: I fail to realize the situation about idra forfeiting against Nerchio. Idra has been on EG for how long now? Since Brood War in Sept 2010. Two years later EG addresses his behavior. Then you go on to point out that "I'm being disrespectful to idra" lol something that isn't even relevant to what were discussing but I'll address it anyway. Idra has a vast reputation as being unprofessional and bad mannered. The most recent event that comes to mind is his showmatch against alive. Where he repeatedly 6 pooled and left the game. He in fact was getting paid for that showmatch regardless if he won or lost. All Idra was doing was speeding up the games so he could get paid. Also, keep in mind Idra is no longer considered the "best foreigner" anymore therefore he isn't allowed to get away with a lot of the things he used to back when he was. Then you go on to mention that teams and sponsors "do not tolerate it". Okay? Just because EG doesn't tolerate it doesn't mean that the rest follow the example. Stephano has done this a numerous amount of times now and Millenium has yet to address it.
On April 05 2012 05:02 chosenkerrigan wrote: [quote]
..... I would have advanced if I was Jjakji. See what I did there?
No I don't see. Explain.
He had slim chance against MMA, a 2-0 would be basically impossible. His assumption is meaningless at best.
Far from impossible, and what kind of a competitor has that mindset?
Probably a competitor who forfeited his games?
Well duh... That wasn't his point. It's unproffessional and if you have some pride in your sport and care for your fans you play the games anyway. And this isn't the first time Stephano have done this and it's not one of his better traits.
lol stephano plays for himself only. It's a tournament, not a league where he's licensed/required to play. So, if he doesn't feel confident or obligated to continue playing then quite honestly...he shouldn't have to. If he was receiving money from attending the event then it would only be natural for him to continue regardless of how he feels but that's not the scenario.
And as much as this community likes to talk about who raped who, how badly they were raped and how people love pointing out the statistics of a player, I'd much rather forfeit rather then be critized on how poor I performed or how much I was outclassed.
However, Stephano did miss a critical opportunity to play, lose or win/learn the holes and mistakes in his builds and correct them thus making him a stronger player. I believe that the best time to play somebody is in a tournament type of event where your opponent has literally prepared for your style and is ready to exploit your builds. It's a great learning opportunity.
Also, It's a fans choice to be a fan. A player "isn't" obligated to fullful a fans needs. So, stop trying to make it like it's his responsibility to do such when it clearly isn't.
Ahh, yes. It's not as if he has a job as a progamer with sponsors who expect him to act with a teeny tiny bit of professionalism since... well y'know... they're his employers and all that.
You completely looked passed point and went into some other shit. Anyway, show me where the sponsers specifically said they "expect" him to be professional and then I'll believe you. Last time I checked companies/individuals sponser a player because of their skill not professionalism. Look at Dragon, Gosi[Terran], Idra hell there's a ton of people who pull the same shit but still remain sponsered so you can throw the whole topic of professionalism out the window.
Also, after the whole Millenium/Complexity issue I suspect that Millenium already expects such behavior from Stephano as it has happened before even after this situation.
Millenium then went on to sign Dragon and we all know Dragons reputation. So, I'm sure Millenium is quite aware of this situation beforehand.
So because they should expect this behavior from him(according to you) that makes it okay? So I guess Millenium pays Stephano to forfeit matches, and because some throw matches it's okay for everybody else to do it? Gotcha! Well if you remembered the last few months of history(don't strain yourself); a team and its sponsors require/expect its players to market their brands and bring good exposure to them. Could perhaps just be me, but I believe that would include playing the matches they have signed up for in the game that is the focus of their current line of work? While not the best pro-players, iNcontroL & NoNy did shed light on the behavioral conduct expected from people who are on a team. While IdrA is a good example, EG's CEO has been forced to call him out and talk to him on his behavior from time to time. While not as often as many would like, he still requires him to adhere to a certain level of professionalism. This has also been demonstrated by teams Prime, SlayerS & Quantic Gaming. But perhaps Millennium simply has lower standards(I hope not for the sake of their reputation) since you did bring up Dragon.
lol, I didn't say forfeitting is "okay" (your getting off topic) I said that Millenium should expect it because Stephano has a history of doing this type of thing and they have yet to address it.
I said if a player isn't bounded by any contract or licensing in a tournament he should have the option of forfeitting because there's no legal documentation saything that he can't.
It's only natural for a sponser to requires its players to market their brands and Stephano being the #1 Foreigner aka: "The Foreigners Hope" is marketing for Millenium. Stephano has won numberous tournaments and in each one of those tournaments he displays the icons of Millenium and his other sponsers. I wasn't trying to insult you in any way and if you felt that I was, I completely apologize for coming off that way. But, I see that Stephano was FORCED to forfeit and that's completely unexceptable.
I don't promote or encourage their actions...I'm simply just looking at the legal side of it.
On April 05 2012 08:40 alpha9 wrote: french community is very disapointed, the french caster pomf&thud and their team, are doing very hard work to do this tourney... a lot of french watch their stream, around 7 or 8k viewers, mostly french. And see stephano give up like this... a lot of people was counting on him and for god's sake it's only a BO3, how he couldn't have enough time? He play almost all time -_-
I don't think it was a matter of time. He knows he had no chance against players better than him, He lost to the other 2 Koreans. By avoiding the match, he avoids a real loss, and his fans can still keep dreaming that he could have beat MMA, if he had played...
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
yes his score at blizzard cup wasnt that impressive BUT his korean ladder run was ( only foreigner to do top 15 with 70 percent after 2 week in kor ! ) and he played a lot of top class kor player
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
I think people would gladly still agree that he is good, but there is something in the argument that he dodges good players. MKP "stomped" him in return the next time they met. That's the nature of the game. You win some, you lose some. You only win consistently if you play Grubby every tournament finals (and possibly not anymore if Grubby keeps improving).
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
wtf !? You don't have that many opportunities to play against code S koreans in big tournaments unless you play in Korea ! Considering this, the Blizzard Cup 4 months ago looks pretty recent to me.
On the contrary, if you look at the matches he played against all sorts of koreans in tournaments, there are not that many of them considered as HUGE korean players so talking about winrate is quite irrelevant here. If now you consider only "good" korean players like Polt (and I do think he deserves at least top code A), Stephano has played much more games and his win rate is not far from 50% (over 50% imo).
That's why I wished he would play more games by qualifying the pool in Iron Squid so he can face more code S class koreans. It's nonsense to say he's dodging them on purpose. Obviously it's just him being young and bm and was just retarded by making his opponent and Iron Squid staff wait for him. That's not cool I agree, I'm really disappointed by that. But it doesn't mean you can say whatever you want about him.
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
you sir are missing my whole point, I was contesting the "random tournaments won while dodging tough opponents" part
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
MarineKing holds that all day long taking fast thirds. Stephano got raped. Accept it.
On April 05 2012 17:05 LeLfe wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:43 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:45 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:30 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
I don't include meaningless tournaments for a couple of grand where people are playing at 5am.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
MarineKing holds that all day long taking fast thirds. Stephano got raped. Accept it.
On April 05 2012 17:05 LeLfe wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:43 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:45 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:30 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
I don't include meaningless tournaments for a couple of grand where people are playing at 5am.
LAN's or major online tournaments only.
And ESWC was six months ago.
I'm not talking about ESWC.
Well I guess you chose to remove what you call meaningless tournaments so the statistics say what you wanted them to say. And how a tournament can be that much meaningless when you have such players as Polt, Violet, Inori, aLive or Zenio participating ??
The fact Stephano is winning pretty often against koreans is a fact and you cannot deny that. I don't say that he was a favorite against Jjakji and MMA, but he had a small chance, that's the point.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
MarineKing holds that all day long taking fast thirds. Stephano got raped. Accept it.
On April 05 2012 17:05 LeLfe wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:43 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:45 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:30 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
I don't include meaningless tournaments for a couple of grand where people are playing at 5am.
LAN's or major online tournaments only.
And ESWC was six months ago.
I'm not talking about ESWC.
Well I guess you chose to remove what you call meaningless tournaments so the statistics say what you wanted them to say. And how a tournament can be that much meaningless when you have such players as Polt, Violet, Inori, aLive or Zenio participating ??
The fact Stephano is winning pretty often against koreans is a fact and you cannot deny that. I don't say that he was a favorite against Jjakji and MMA, but he had a small chance, that's the point.
ESWC was referenced in the first place for Stephano being able to beat MKP. Read up.
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless. Even Ladder has more meaning than that.
I also did not pick and choose in the slightest. I included all games played in Liquipedia's definition of a Premier tournament as well as Lone Star Clash which while a major tournament was a LAN, and I'd be happy to disqualify it seen as Stephano actually did well there.
Stephano loses more than he wins vs Koreans and that includes Code B/A Koreans. He is wildly overrated and is falling further and further away from the Code S players.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
MarineKing holds that all day long taking fast thirds. Stephano got raped. Accept it.
On April 05 2012 17:05 LeLfe wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:43 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:45 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:30 samurai80 wrote: [quote] Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
I don't include meaningless tournaments for a couple of grand where people are playing at 5am.
LAN's or major online tournaments only.
And ESWC was six months ago.
I'm not talking about ESWC.
Well I guess you chose to remove what you call meaningless tournaments so the statistics say what you wanted them to say. And how a tournament can be that much meaningless when you have such players as Polt, Violet, Inori, aLive or Zenio participating ??
The fact Stephano is winning pretty often against koreans is a fact and you cannot deny that. I don't say that he was a favorite against Jjakji and MMA, but he had a small chance, that's the point.
ESWC was referenced in the first place for Stephano being able to beat MKP. Read up.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
MarineKing holds that all day long taking fast thirds. Stephano got raped. Accept it.
On April 05 2012 17:05 LeLfe wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:43 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:45 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:30 samurai80 wrote: [quote] Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
I don't include meaningless tournaments for a couple of grand where people are playing at 5am.
LAN's or major online tournaments only.
And ESWC was six months ago.
I'm not talking about ESWC.
Well I guess you chose to remove what you call meaningless tournaments so the statistics say what you wanted them to say. And how a tournament can be that much meaningless when you have such players as Polt, Violet, Inori, aLive or Zenio participating ??
The fact Stephano is winning pretty often against koreans is a fact and you cannot deny that. I don't say that he was a favorite against Jjakji and MMA, but he had a small chance, that's the point.
ESWC was referenced in the first place for Stephano being able to beat MKP. Read up.
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless. Even Ladder has more meaning than that.
I also did not pick and choose in the slightest. I included all games played in Liquipedia's definition of a Premier tournament as well as Lone Star Clash which while a major tournament was a LAN, and I'd be happy to disqualify it seen as Stephano actually did well there.
Stephano loses more than he wins vs Koreans and that includes Code B/A Koreans. He is wildly overrated and is falling further and further away from the Code S players.
Well I don't know whether he's close to the code S level or not, I wish I had more clue about that actually. But I mean, after viewing his games in your "meaningless" tournaments, I can say for sure Stephano did play well to beat these koreans who themselves were not at all looking sloppy or anything. His play was in these games impressive, and that's why I believe, and I'm not the only one, that he deserves some credit about his chances to win against top koreans, even if I can't tell about such a precise win rate he could have had if he played more against them.
Then as you mention it, the ladder is also telling us he was winning quite a lot in Korean GM.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Ok I disagree and this discussion is worthless... Btw I'm not even a Stephano fan, I hate BM.
It's funny reading all of the commenters who are taking Jjakji's beating Stephano so seriously (as evidence of a wide skill gap). If the opposite result had occurred many would discount Stephano's victory because the game was played cross-server and online.
Stephano goes for a delayed all in in game 1 and then loses to two port banshees. Jjakji should definitely be favored to beat Stephano but you can't read too much into such a series. If you want to make a lot out of his game, then I assume you also viewed Stephano's beating MKP and MMA in the IPL3 qualifier as a very important victory for him. I'm guessing those reveling in Stephano's losses do not. Most of course discredited his victories there -- even though both players were familiar with Stephano and his style. (Watch the chat with MMA from game 1 in their series, e.g.).
No Zerg, not Stephano, not Life, not DRG, not Leenock, not Nestea, can consistently beat a top tier Korean Terran like MKP, MMA or Jjakji, which is why all of those Terrans have absurd win rates even in Korea. No Zerg in the world. Not. a. one. On the other hand, those Terran players can consistently beat all of the best Zerg players. The match up is very balanced at the moment, except at the very tippy-top of the spectrum, where Terran continues to be more or less invincible despite Blizzard's best efforts to nerf Terran.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
On April 05 2012 23:44 The_Darkness wrote: It's funny reading all of the commenters who are taking Jjakji's beating Stephano so seriously (as evidence of a wide skill gap). If the opposite result had occurred many would discount Stephano's victory because the game was played cross-server and online.
Stephano goes for a delayed all in in game 1 and then loses to two port banshees. Jjakji should definitely be favored to beat Stephano but you can't read too much into such a series. If you want to make a lot out of his game, then I assume you also viewed Stephano's beating MKP and MMA in the IPL3 qualifier as a very important victory for him. I'm guessing those reveling in Stephano's losses do not. Most of course discredited his victories there -- even though both players were familiar with Stephano and his style. (Watch the chat with MMA from game 1 in their series, e.g.).
No Zerg, not Stephano, not Life, not DRG, not Leenock, not Nestea, can consistently beat a top tier Korean Terran like MKP, MMA or Jjakji, which is why all of those Terrans have absurd win rates even in Korea. No Zerg in the world. Not. a. one. On the other hand, those Terran players can consistently beat all of the best Zerg players. The match up is very balanced at the moment, except at the very tippy-top of the spectrum, where Terran continues to be more or less invincible despite Blizzard's best efforts to nerf Terran.
DRG can and was able to lol. Until MarineKing started playing as much as good in official matches as in practice . Anyways are people sure that Stephano forfeited because he was already eliminated? I've read somewhere that he prefered streaming because it would make more revenue that day than playing a "pointless" match but I've no idea if that's true. I'm hoping for an official statement.
On April 05 2012 23:44 The_Darkness wrote: It's funny reading all of the commenters who are taking Jjakji's beating Stephano so seriously (as evidence of a wide skill gap). If the opposite result had occurred many would discount Stephano's victory because the game was played cross-server and online.
Stephano goes for a delayed all in in game 1 and then loses to two port banshees. Jjakji should definitely be favored to beat Stephano but you can't read too much into such a series. If you want to make a lot out of his game, then I assume you also viewed Stephano's beating MKP and MMA in the IPL3 qualifier as a very important victory for him. I'm guessing those reveling in Stephano's losses do not. Most of course discredited his victories there -- even though both players were familiar with Stephano and his style. (Watch the chat with MMA from game 1 in their series, e.g.).
No Zerg, not Stephano, not Life, not DRG, not Leenock, not Nestea, can consistently beat a top tier Korean Terran like MKP, MMA or Jjakji, which is why all of those Terrans have absurd win rates even in Korea. No Zerg in the world. Not. a. one. On the other hand, those Terran players can consistently beat all of the best Zerg players. The match up is very balanced at the moment, except at the very tippy-top of the spectrum, where Terran continues to be more or less invincible despite Blizzard's best efforts to nerf Terran.
DRG can and was able to lol. Until MarineKing started playing as much as good in official matches as in practice . Anyways are people sure that Stephano forfeited because he was already eliminated? I've read somewhere that he prefered streaming because it would make more revenue that day than playing a "pointless" match but I've no idea if that's true. I'm hoping for an official statement.
Lol, that makes me smile but even as a Stephano fan, i have to admit, it's totally possible (:.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
This.
I dislike Stephano's recent behavior, but that doesn't mean people have the right to twist his results like that.
Aemilia, you're a devoted Stephano hater. Don't deny it because you have been at this for your entire time on TL. You're dedicated to it in the same way that IdrA haters are dedicated to bashing him whenever the opportunity arises.
It's okay to be against hype, and Stephano does deserve a lot of the criticism flying his way, but the way you make your arguments is outside the boundaries of neutrality.
Stephano doesn't have a winning record vs. top Koreans, but he does not have an awful record when put alongside other foreigners and lower level Koreans. Besides HuK and Naniwa, there are few that are able to be mentioned in the same breath.
On April 05 2012 23:44 The_Darkness wrote: It's funny reading all of the commenters who are taking Jjakji's beating Stephano so seriously (as evidence of a wide skill gap). If the opposite result had occurred many would discount Stephano's victory because the game was played cross-server and online.
Stephano goes for a delayed all in in game 1 and then loses to two port banshees. Jjakji should definitely be favored to beat Stephano but you can't read too much into such a series. If you want to make a lot out of his game, then I assume you also viewed Stephano's beating MKP and MMA in the IPL3 qualifier as a very important victory for him. I'm guessing those reveling in Stephano's losses do not. Most of course discredited his victories there -- even though both players were familiar with Stephano and his style. (Watch the chat with MMA from game 1 in their series, e.g.).
No Zerg, not Stephano, not Life, not DRG, not Leenock, not Nestea, can consistently beat a top tier Korean Terran like MKP, MMA or Jjakji, which is why all of those Terrans have absurd win rates even in Korea. No Zerg in the world. Not. a. one. On the other hand, those Terran players can consistently beat all of the best Zerg players. The match up is very balanced at the moment, except at the very tippy-top of the spectrum, where Terran continues to be more or less invincible despite Blizzard's best efforts to nerf Terran.
DRG can and was able to lol. Until MarineKing started playing as much as good in official matches as in practice . Anyways are people sure that Stephano forfeited because he was already eliminated? I've read somewhere that he prefered streaming because it would make more revenue that day than playing a "pointless" match but I've no idea if that's true. I'm hoping for an official statement.
DRG has had four bad series against Terran in a row (2 against MKP - a god of tvz; Taeja -- a god of tvz; and the STC -- a solid T); his late game play looked very weak for a GSL champ (and Terran's looked very strong -- despite the nerf to ghosts). Of course he "can" take a series off an MMA, Taeja, etc. and he has in the past. However, I said "consistently". I should have instead said that there are at present no zergs IMO who should be favored in a best of X series against any of MMA, MKP, Jjakji and also Taeja at the moment. SC2 is constantly in a state of flux so perhaps this is just a passing trend and next week the pendulum will swing back into Zerg's favor, but it seems like the top Terran have figured out how to beat the top Zergs. (As I noted above, my comments about balance only refer to balance at the very very top of the spectrum.)
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
This.
I dislike Stephano's recent behavior, but that doesn't mean people have the right to twist his results like that.
Aemilia, you're a devoted Stephano hater. Don't deny it because you have been at this for your entire time on TL. You're dedicated to it in the same way that IdrA haters are dedicated to bashing him whenever the opportunity arises.
It's okay to be against hype, and Stephano does deserve a lot of the criticism flying his way, but the way you make your arguments is outside the boundaries of neutrality.
Stephano doesn't have a winning record vs. top Koreans, but he does not have an awful record when put alongside other foreigners and lower level Koreans. Other than HuK and Naniwa, there are few that are able to be mentioned in the same breath.
He's the only ZERG (and not protoss, terran excpet kas or thorzain are way behind in term of results) with a good record vs Koreans. its something people tend to forget.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
MarineKing holds that all day long taking fast thirds. Stephano got raped. Accept it.
On April 05 2012 17:05 LeLfe wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:43 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:45 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:30 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
I don't include meaningless tournaments for a couple of grand where people are playing at 5am.
LAN's or major online tournaments only.
And ESWC was six months ago.
See the post below you where someone corrects your list. Also you should probably delete the MC and MKP losses since Stephano was badly hungover at the time. Further why are you including his loss against Jjakji? It was online and played cross server.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
Um, no. Hero does not have "possibly the best PvZ in the world", not even close. Even Nerchio beat Hero, and Violet frequently defeats him too. I struggle to even remember the last time Hero had an impressive win against a top tier Korean zerg. Stephano beating him is not some great feat. You're overrating his wins immensely. Similar for JYP, and they were just practice games...If you're going to list his wins at least be realistic about them.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
It's not remotely selective but Iron Squid is a Premier Tournament (as outlined by Liquipedia). I used it for the same reason I'd use a TSL. That is not me declaring it a Premier Tournament, that is Team Liquid's staff.
Counting pre 2012 games is ridiculous, they're not even played on the current patch and are way too dated to be relevant.
But if you want to include only Premier Tournaments, or only LAN tournaments he still has a comfortably losing record vs Koreans.
On April 05 2012 04:39 samurai80 wrote: Stephano completely owned T_T
well, jjakji did need 2 very risky builds to own him Stephanos scouting is to blame here
Nothing really that risky about Jjakji's build in game 1.
Only threat would have been a roach/bane bust but he'd have had more than enough time to adjust.
You go for a fast third and you would "have enough time to adjust" to a 2base roach allin?
God your hate towards Stephano is getting more obnoxious by the day
MarineKing holds that all day long taking fast thirds. Stephano got raped. Accept it.
On April 05 2012 17:05 LeLfe wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:43 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 16:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:45 Fubi wrote:
On April 05 2012 15:30 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 06:27 sitromit wrote: Stephano knows that he needs to avoid playing against good competition as much as he possibly can, to keep the hype train going so he can have a legion of fans and get 10K viewers when he streams. If he never plays against MMA, his fans can keep believing that had he played, he could have won.. People still believe he'll win IPL 4... Good luck with that. :p
Wait a min man, he played the Blizzard Cup, and unlike the other foreigners he did have some encouraging results by winning 2 games over 4 against the best of the best in Korea (W:Hero,DRG, L:Mvp,MC). It's not like he usually win every game against a top korean, but at least he had won some and hopefully will still have some good results against them.
He was just completely owned against Jjakji, and got completely mad at that (not used to lose that much recently maybe), refusing to play the next game. I agree this is retarded, but it's not like he's doing that to avoid the best players. You can say whatever you want against him but no way you can say that.
I don't know about you, but talking about him winning some Bo1's from 4-5months ago doesn't mean anything, considering how thing change so fast and people can go up and down so quickly. Just looking at Stephano's recent games, he hasn't won against any notable Korean players recently, except Polt, who has a winner record against him.
Im guessing his idea of staying a top foreigner includes winning random smaller tournaments, not going to Korea, and just dodge all the good players he can't beat.
Well, I don't really blame stephano. He probably feels that he has nothing to prove and the entirety of his career is to make as much money as possible before he switches to study medicine. Once he leaves this game the only thing that's going to matter in his life is how much money he made and all the things he can spend it on. What he's doing is finding the easiest way to make money even if that means dodging top players and playing in smaller tournaments because he feels that he has an advantage. Why play in a Korean league or tryout for one (GSL) if you can win more money in a couple of tournaments with a lower skill ceiling? It's less stress and easier earnings. Plus, Stephano's displayed on numberous occasions that he could careless about the communities opinions or expectations.
Sure we want to see the "Foreigner Hope" fulfill that title but only he alone can decide if he wants to take on the task. But "to ze bank!" is his focus and "to ze bank!" is where all that money is going from dodging top players and winning smaller tournaments.
Not saying I have a problem with what he does and decides with his life. Just saying people should stop hyping him as god or foreigner savior when all he's been doing is dodging good players and winning random tournaments without them.
not like he stomped MKP to win ESWC in October... no excuse for his forfeit, still he's a great player.
Sup with six months ago? His record in 2012 vs Koreans is terrible.
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
So that's 3 wins and 8 losses vs Korean players in Premier Tournaments in 2012.
Man look for Stephano in TLPD international, check every game against korean players for the last 3 months (we're in early April, not July so it's not 6 but 3 months...)
You should have much more games than that, many of them being wins. Check your info dude !
I don't include meaningless tournaments for a couple of grand where people are playing at 5am.
LAN's or major online tournaments only.
And ESWC was six months ago.
See the post below you where someone corrects your list. Also you should probably delete the MC and MKP losses since Stephano was badly hungover at the time. Further why are you including his loss against Jjakji? It was online and played cross server.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
Phoenix and TypeReal are not middle-tier, they are extreme low-tier. They are not Code A worthy players and I wouldn't favor them in a ESV Korean Weekly either.
The Zenio win is nice, but you have to give me more than a ZvZ victory to convince me that Stephano can match against the top Korean players (which Zenio is not).
Puma's TvZ is frankly crappy when compared to his contemporaries. His Korean TLPD speaks for itself.
Stephano was able to beat Polt after studying his playstyle, and Polt was equally as stubborn for sticking to the same few builds. Stephano would be hard-pressed to pull the same trick on a player like MarineKing, who is far more flexible with build orders.
Dongraegu is not the best ZvZ player in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity.
Hero is not the best PvZ player in the world and never was.
JYP does not have the best PvZ in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity. I imagine the people who believe that have scant evidence to prove it.
On April 06 2012 01:34 Bagration wrote: It never fails. Anytime Stephano plays, the LR threads always explode in debates on his ability to hold with top Koreans :p
You ought to make some IPL4 bets. What are the odds that a Stephano argument will break out before his group finishes?
On April 06 2012 01:34 Bagration wrote: It never fails. Anytime Stephano plays, the LR threads always explode in debates on his ability to hold with top Koreans :p
You ought to make some IPL4 bets. What are the odds that a Stephano argument will break out before his group finishes?
First game of MKP vs Stephano, where MKP destroys stephano with a 2 rax. Which will be seen as a "cheesy rush" and mkp is obviously incapable of defeating stephano in the lategame because he "fears it"
On April 06 2012 01:34 Bagration wrote: It never fails. Anytime Stephano plays, the LR threads always explode in debates on his ability to hold with top Koreans :p
You ought to make some IPL4 bets. What are the odds that a Stephano argument will break out before his group finishes?
1:1000 or basically 99.9% chance. It's basically certain to happen. Likewise with Idra
He practices about 1/3 as much as a typical Korean and plays against far, far worse competition and yet performs on a Code S level according to me (and Polt, Nestea, MVP, etc.). This is the mark of someone extremely special. There are a couple of "genius" level players in Korea but it's more difficult to detect where talent ends and hard work begins when you're practicing 12-14 hours a day.
Edit: I should have said "practices" instead of "plays" above.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
Phoenix and TypeReal are not middle-tier, they are extreme low-tier. They are not Code A worthy players and I wouldn't favor them in a ESV Korean Weekly either.
The Zenio win is nice, but you have to give me more than a ZvZ victory to convince me that Stephano can match against the top Korean players (which Zenio is not).
Puma's TvZ is frankly crappy when compared to his contemporaries. His Korean TLPD speaks for itself.
Stephano was able to beat Polt after studying his playstyle, and Polt was equally as stubborn for sticking to the same few builds. Stephano would be hard-pressed to pull the same trick on a player like MarineKing, who is far more flexible with build orders.
Dongraegu is not the best ZvZ player in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity.
Hero is not the best PvZ player in the world and never was.
JYP does not have the best PvZ in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity. I imagine the people who believe that have scant evidence to prove it.
Yes, you are being hyperbolic.
1. Zenio is a top tier zerg. He's in code S and there are only 7 or 8 zegs in Code S total at the moment. ZvZ is one of his better match ups and he lost 2-0 to Stephano. Zenio actually has a higher Elo than DRG in the match up (in Korea) and is #3 overall. 2. Your opinions as to who is the best or worse in a match up are pretty meaningless (as mine are), among other reasons, because you're a nobody and you appear to be a bit of a dope (and I'm not saying that just because we don't agree on this issue but rather because of an apparent complete inability to argue your points effectively, based on your posts in this forum and others). Objectively, JYP and Hero are better against Z than either MC or Parting, e.g., based on their Korean Elos. Along with Genius and Squirtle, JYP is definitely top 3 and I would say Hero is number 4 although there is room for debate here. 3. GSL should hire you to determine who is Code A caliber. I'm writing an unsolicited letter to GSL on your behalf as soon as I'm done posting this. 4. DRG beat Nestea at the GSL and the unofficial crown of King Zerg in zvz passed to him. He has a ridiculous zvz record, but I'm OK with disputing this point; he's not clearly the best in the way that Nestea was before he fell off a bit. Moreover as noted above, his Elo is actually below Zenio's; DRG is definitely top 5 though. 5. My figures are selective but more than sufficient to show how ridiculous many of the statements made in this forum about the level of Stephano's play are. Elo is as objective as it gets in terms of measuring how good you are at the moment on a weighted average basis. You've already lost this argument to the extent you think Stephano is not at least Code S quality. (If you don't think he is, you also would find yourself in disagreement with Nestea, Polt, MVP, MC, etc. on the caliber of his play, but again those are just opinions; facts are facts and his Elo score speaks for itself.) 6. Polt also called Stephano a genius (so I'm not totally alone here) and I think that's a good word to describe someone who puts in so little time and effort and yet achieves so much. He admits to not even watching replays of his losses. How is this guy so good? A: Genius.
He practices about 1/3 as much as a typical Korean and plays against far, far worse competition and yet performs on a Code S level according to me (and Polt, Nestea, MVP, etc.). This is the mark of someone extremely special. There are a couple of "genius" level players in Korea but it's more difficult to detect where talent ends and hard work begins when you're practicing 12-14 hours a day.
Edit: I should have said "practices" instead of "plays" above.
Are Fruitdealer and Tester geniuses too? They never practiced either and we Code S/A for a long time. Fruitdealer came 2nd at IEM having played LoL for months on pure talent alone.
as a reminder stephano has beaten mkp and mma too. it's ridiculous when he wins vs a korean it's because the games were played online or the koreans were jet lagged but when he loses it's because he is overhyped and bad wtf realy.
On April 06 2012 03:12 kratos-23 wrote: as a reminder stephano has beaten mkp and mma too. it's ridiculous when he wins vs a korean it's because the games were played online or the koreans were jet lagged but when he loses it's because he is overhyped and bad wtf realy.
The MMA game was literally a meaningless game. It was as meaningless as the Naniwa probe rush game.
On April 06 2012 01:34 Bagration wrote: It never fails. Anytime Stephano plays, the LR threads always explode in debates on his ability to hold with top Koreans :p
You ought to make some IPL4 bets. What are the odds that a Stephano argument will break out before his group finishes?
First game of MKP vs Stephano, where MKP destroys stephano with a 2 rax. Which will be seen as a "cheesy rush" and mkp is obviously incapable of defeating stephano in the lategame because he "fears it"
thats my prediction of how that series will go
Haha, this is funny because it's so true. Plus, I never believe any of the koreans when they say stephano is code s, etc because they are so humble and are always quick to praise foreigners saying skill gap isn't there etc. MKP keeps saying byun is better than him and we all know that's not true because byun has never been better than mkp, but it's just mkp being humble.
Stephano is good and probably the top foreigner, but I have never bought into the hype. I put zergs like seal, life and b4 above him. The difference is those type of players don't get the same opportunities someone like stephano has.
All this Stephano discussion is nice and all, but I'd like to clarify he doesn't only practise 3 hours a day at the moment. He practises around double that I think.
On April 06 2012 03:12 kratos-23 wrote: as a reminder stephano has beaten mkp and mma too. it's ridiculous when he wins vs a korean it's because the games were played online or the koreans were jet lagged but when he loses it's because he is overhyped and bad wtf realy.
The MMA game was literally a meaningless game. It was as meaningless as the Naniwa probe rush game.
see lol that is EXACTLY what i mean. thanks for supporting my argument. also stephanos game vs jjakji were meaningless for him i guess. see what i did here? xD
He practices about 1/3 as much as a typical Korean and plays against far, far worse competition and yet performs on a Code S level according to me (and Polt, Nestea, MVP, etc.). This is the mark of someone extremely special. There are a couple of "genius" level players in Korea but it's more difficult to detect where talent ends and hard work begins when you're practicing 12-14 hours a day.
Edit: I should have said "practices" instead of "plays" above.
Are Fruitdealer and Tester geniuses too? They never practiced either and we Code S/A for a long time. Fruitdealer came 2nd at IEM having played LoL for months on pure talent alone.
Yes, if he's able to be the best (or among the best) in the world at something without practicing (when so many others are pracitcing so much harder to get similar results) I'm fully comfortable calling Fruitdealer a genius (by which I mean a truly extraordinary talent). I'm not familiar with Tester. I'm pretty sure he practiced at least some though since Fruitdealer was #1 on the Korean ladder for a while. In any event, I'm not saying that Stephano is the only genius in Starcraft. His results, given his practice environment are truly mind boggling.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
Phoenix and TypeReal are not middle-tier, they are extreme low-tier. They are not Code A worthy players and I wouldn't favor them in a ESV Korean Weekly either.
The Zenio win is nice, but you have to give me more than a ZvZ victory to convince me that Stephano can match against the top Korean players (which Zenio is not).
Puma's TvZ is frankly crappy when compared to his contemporaries. His Korean TLPD speaks for itself.
Stephano was able to beat Polt after studying his playstyle, and Polt was equally as stubborn for sticking to the same few builds. Stephano would be hard-pressed to pull the same trick on a player like MarineKing, who is far more flexible with build orders.
Dongraegu is not the best ZvZ player in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity.
Hero is not the best PvZ player in the world and never was.
JYP does not have the best PvZ in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity. I imagine the people who believe that have scant evidence to prove it.
Yes, you are being hyperbolic.
1. Zenio is a top tier zerg. He's in code S and there are only 7 or 8 zegs in Code S total at the moment. ZvZ is one of his better match ups and he lost 2-0 to Stephano. Zenio actually has a higher Elo than DRG in the match up (in Korea) and is #3 overall. 2. Your opinions as to who is the best or worse in a match up are pretty meaningless (as mine are), among other reasons, because you're a nobody and you appear to be a bit of a dope (and I'm not saying that just because we don't agree on this issue but rather because of an apparent complete inability to argue your points effectively, based on your posts in this forum and others). Objectively, JYP and Hero are better against Z than either MC or Parting, e.g., based on their Korean Elos. Along with Genius and Squirtle, JYP is definitely top 3 and I would say Hero is number 4 although there is room for debate here. 3. GSL should hire you to determine who is Code A caliber. I'm writing an unsolicited letter to GSL on your behalf as soon as I'm done posting this. 4. DRG beat Nestea at the GSL and the unofficial crown of King Zerg in zvz passed to him. He has a ridiculous zvz record, but I'm OK with disputing this point; he's not clearly the best in the way that Nestea was before he fell off a bit. Moreover as noted above, his Elo is actually below Zenio's; DRG is definitely top 5 though. 5. My figures are selective but more than sufficient to show how ridiculous many of the statements made in this forum about the level of Stephano's play are. Elo is as objective as it gets in terms of measuring how good you are at the moment on a weighted average basis. You've already lost this argument to the extent you think Stephano is not at least Code S quality. (If you don't think he is, you also would find yourself in disagreement with Nestea, Polt, MVP, MC, etc. on the caliber of his play, but again those are just opinions; facts are facts and his Elo score speaks for itself.) 6. Polt also called Stephano a genius (so I'm not totally alone here) and I think that's a good word to describe someone who puts in so little time and effort and yet achieves so much. He admits to not even watching replays of his losses. How is this guy so good? A: Genius.
It's simply not an effective way to rank player and you know it's not but you don't care as long as it suits you. According to ELO rank, Livezerg is the second best foreigner. Hell, it's just as ridiculous as saying Hero and JYP have the best PvZ so why not? MC hasn't had a game vs Zerg on Korean TLPD in like 3 months, exactly why its ridiculous to say JYP and Hero are "objectively" better than MC and Parting at PvZ at the moment based on ELO, even though MC effortlessly stomps the zergs that Hero loses to(Nerchio stephano violet etc) which is why it's a ridiculous way to rank players matchups.
On April 06 2012 03:12 kratos-23 wrote: as a reminder stephano has beaten mkp and mma too. it's ridiculous when he wins vs a korean it's because the games were played online or the koreans were jet lagged but when he loses it's because he is overhyped and bad wtf realy.
The MMA game was literally a meaningless game. It was as meaningless as the Naniwa probe rush game.
see lol that is EXACTLY what i mean. thanks for supporting my argument. also stephanos game vs jjakji were meaningless for him i guess. see what i did here? xD
No, the Jjakji game was a big deal. The MMA game was meaningless, that's why he didn't turn up. Just like his game vs MMA in the IPL Qualifier was meaningless (both players had qualified already, no money or seeding was on the line) only both players decided to play.
He practices about 1/3 as much as a typical Korean and plays against far, far worse competition and yet performs on a Code S level according to me (and Polt, Nestea, MVP, etc.). This is the mark of someone extremely special. There are a couple of "genius" level players in Korea but it's more difficult to detect where talent ends and hard work begins when you're practicing 12-14 hours a day.
Edit: I should have said "practices" instead of "plays" above.
Are Fruitdealer and Tester geniuses too? They never practiced either and we Code S/A for a long time. Fruitdealer came 2nd at IEM having played LoL for months on pure talent alone.
Yes, if he's able to be the best (or among the best) in the world at something without practicing (when so many others are pracitcing so much harder to get similar results) I'm fully comfortable calling Fruitdealer a genius (by which I mean a truly extraordinary talent). I'm not familiar with Tester. I'm pretty sure he practiced at least some though since Fruitdealer was #1 on the Korean ladder for a while. In any event, I'm not saying that Stephano is the only genius in Starcraft. His results, given his practice environment are truly mind boggling.
You have a very generous definition of genius. Flash is a genius, players who get quite good (but nothing extraordinary) without practicing quite as hard (although 3 hours is wrong, he practices 6 hours on average according to himself) as others are not geniuses.
Anyone who thinks JYP and Hero have the best PvZ in the world is an idiot. I don't care about the Stephano drama, but some of these distortions by his fans are grasping at straws.
I'm not surprised that you have such a low opinion of me. Most of the time I keep my posts short and acerbic because frankly, who the hell wants to read a 1800 word post in the first place? But since you're very insistent on insulting me I guess I should show that I am more than a nobody in this particular field of expertise.
On April 06 2012 02:55 The_Darkness wrote: 1. Zenio is a top tier zerg. He's in code S and there are only 7 or 8 zegs in Code S total at the moment. ZvZ is one of his better match ups and he lost 2-0 to Stephano. Zenio actually has a higher Elo than DRG in the match up (in Korea) and is #3 overall.
The Code S/Code A/Code B distinction is a poor way to separate talent at the highest level of competition. All it does to tell you the location of every Korean progamer along the GSL spectrum at any particular point in time. It doesn't answer questions such as "Who would win the majority of games in a Bo100, Virus or YuGiOh?" and "Who has the more constant ZvZ dominance, Nestea or Dongraegu?" Any claims about who is better than who depends on GSL ranking as one shred of evidence.
I would have considered Zenio a top-tier zerg if we were having a discussion during GSL July, when he was in the middle of a great ZvT run. Unfortunately his ZvT record fell off a cliff after his loss to TOP. Add that he never managed to have a consistently long period of ZvP dominance over lesser known players, and he ranks where I rank him now: a upper Code A/lower Code S player who is too inconsistent to be a reliable threat.
I'll delve into the dangers of relying on Elo as an "objective statistic" but I'll suffice to point the two major flaws that inflate Zenio's ranking: he did not play a single ZvZ match from April 2011 to December 2011, and he did not face off against worthwhile competition during his career. Both can be attributed to the fact that players with a great handle on the PvP/ZvZ matchup are hard to come by in the competitive scene, so the quality of ZvZ opponents is erratic.
The only player he faced pre-April 2011 who was legitimately good at ZvZ was Nestea (lost every single game). The only players he faced post-December 2011 who were legitimately great ZvZ players were Losira (won a Bo1), Shine (lost a Bo3), and BboongBboong (won a Bo3 against a first-time Code A player). So over a year and a half Zenio has only played 4 opponents who could consistently challenge him in the matchup. His Elo rating is skewed because of that.
On April 06 2012 02:55 The_Darkness wrote: 2. Your opinions as to who is the best or worse in a match up are pretty meaningless (as mine are), among other reasons, because you're a nobody and you appear to be a bit of a dope (and I'm not saying that just because we don't agree on this issue but rather because of an apparent complete inability to argue your points effectively, based on your posts in this forum and others). Objectively, JYP and Hero are better against Z than either MC or Parting, e.g., based on their Korean Elos. Along with Genius and Squirtle, JYP is definitely top 3 and I would say Hero is number 4 although there is room for debate here.
Now we run into the problem of the Elo rating system.
The first thing is that an Elo ranking is not a proper statistic i.e. it is not presentable as a fact. When a basketball players gets 15 rebounds in a game he gets 15 rebounds, it’s not an interpretation of what he did on the court. Instead Elo is a competitive system that uses wins and losses to serve as a statistical estimation of a player’s skill level. It assumes that skill level is an inherent property that changes slowly (if at all) over a period of time, which would be reflected by the system. Remember that Elo does not directly rank players against each other, but the flat numbers indicate the projected probability of x beating y over a series of z matches.
For the most part the TL system does its job. You’d be hard pressed to deny that Stephano ranks among the top players of the international scene or that Dongraegu is the best zerg in Korea. However, the ideal implication of a Elo ranking system would be among a large pool of players who would play each other x number of times under controlled circumstances. The controlled environment means that deviations due to factors like sickness, uninterest, mental fatigue, etc. can be eliminated. The controlled number of games means that statistical deviations due to individual matchups, more games played than other players, etc. can be eliminated. Real-world application of Elo usually compensates for the lack of perfect conditions with enough PlayervPlayer matches to smooth out deviations. Unfortunately none of these apply to the Starcraft scene, so we have the following problems with TL’s use of the Elo system.
Selective pairing itself is not a problem in SC2 competitive play beyond the GSL group stages. However, it is a major issue when you consider that the median and mean skill level of players between the competitive scenes can be vast. There are two obvious situations which the concept affects Elo ratings negatively: when high-level Korean players play in international tournaments and high-level players constantly play against inferior competition. This can artificially inflate their rankings even taking the K-factor into consideration.
Players can overcome the K-factor with high-volume participation in weekly cups and other online tournaments. LiveZerg is currently #2 on international TLPD because of this; this does not mean that he is overall a better player than HuK, Naniwa, and Nerchio.
Alternatively, a player with a low TLPD ranking can quickly get a high TLPD ranking due to more exposure in tournaments. This is what happened to Hero’s ranking after he became a member of Team Liquid. When he was an oGs member very few of his games were recorded in international TLPD and most of them were losses against top Korean players, so his ranking was low. When he started going to Dreamhack Winter and such under the TL banner, his ranking shot into the stratosphere since the system incorrectly tried to reflect his “rapidly increasing skill”. But there was no such thing. Hero was just facing competition which was supposed to be superior according to TLPD, but not in reality.
Korean TLPD is absolutely unreliable as an indicator of skill rank. It is one of the poorest applications of the Elo system to any consistent pool of players because of the way the Korean scene works. There are very few tournaments outside of the GSL that are recorded by TLPD, two players rarely face each other more than two-three times a year, and players often participate in overlapping tournaments. This makes for a lot of upsets (due to dedicating focus to one tournament instead of another) and a lot of wild fluctuations (due to the small number of games played).
Certain events are excluded when calculating Elo ranking. Furthermore the matches included in TLPD are only measured up to a certain point in the tournament. The exclusion of the Iron Squid qualifiers from TLPD greatly affects Life’s Elo ranking in the foreign scene, particularly his vT ranking. Even if they were included they would probably only uses the matches from the Ro8 to the final.
As far as I am aware, the TLPD system does not include equations to deflate an Elo ranking over a long period of “inactivity” (when no games in the matchup are recorded and included in the calculations). This creates problems where a player’s Elo ranking stays the same despite getting better/worse at the matchup over the period. See the Zenio situation.
The K-factor determines how much a player drops/rises in Elo ranking in relation to his opponent. A low K-factor will not reflect changes in skill level sufficiently, and a high K-factor will overestimate the change in skill. The existence/nonexistence of staggered K-factors in TLPD is also an important factor in Elo fluctuations.
If we go purely by Elo rankings, then Squirtle is the best PvZ player in Korea. A closer look at his PvZ record shows that the majority of his games were played in the ESV Korean Weekly and KSL against zergs who were Code A/Code B at the time of the games. Similarly, JYP jumped to the #2 PvZ spot by playing Code A zergs and losing to Dongraegu. Reliance on TLPD to judge players offers some funny-ass situations. If we go by your logic Soulman is better than Hero in PvZ, Seal is better in ZvZ than Nestea, and MC is worse in PvZ than the retired cOre(whose last significant victory in the matchup was against Leenock in August 2011).
On April 06 2012 02:55 The_Darkness wrote: 3. GSL should hire you to determine who is Code A caliber. I'm writing an unsolicited letter to GSL on your behalf as soon as I'm done posting this.
I think I would do a very good job at it, but the idea destroys the spirit of competition. What’s the point of a tournament without upsets?
On April 06 2012 02:55 The_Darkness wrote: 4. DRG beat Nestea at the GSL and the unofficial crown of King Zerg in zvz passed to him. He has a ridiculous zvz record, but I'm OK with disputing this point; he's not clearly the best in the way that Nestea was before he fell off a bit. Moreover as noted above, his Elo is actually below Zenio's; DRG is definitely top 5 though.
When BboongBboong cleanly beat Nestea in the Team Ace Invitational, everyone was quick to dismiss it. When Leenock beat Nestea in the Blizzard Cup group stages everyone praised Leenock but did not bother to compare matchups. But when Dongraegu beats him in a very close 2-1, suddenly Dongraegu is the “best ZvZ player in Korea”. At the very least Stephano has volume on his side with a recorded 181 ZvZ games in TLPD over a year and a half. Nestea has only 62 games and his international results are rather unimpressive.
I think DRG is better than Zenio in ZvZ at this point in time.
On April 06 2012 02:55 The_Darkness wrote: 5. My figures are selective but more than sufficient to show how ridiculous many of the statements made in this forum about the level of Stephano's play are. Elo is as objective as it gets in terms of measuring how good you are at the moment on a weighted average basis. You've already lost this argument to the extent you think Stephano is not at least Code S quality. (If you don't think he is, you also would find yourself in disagreement with Nestea, Polt, MVP, MC, etc. on the caliber of his play, but again those are just opinions; facts are facts and his Elo score speaks for itself.)
And you naturally projected that resentment on me, as you would like to believe that I believe that Stephano is unworthy of Code S? I don't care about comparing players unless it leads to winning money on bets, and I care even less about creating tiers of skill level.
The fact is “Code S/Code A/Code B level” are just approximations of what GSL level people think the players will consistently reach. Since Stephano has never participated in the GSL we do not know how he will fare under the system.
Elo is hardly an objective measurement of a player’s skill level relative to his peers. I think I already explained this one.
On April 06 2012 02:55 The_Darkness wrote: 6. Polt also called Stephano a genius (so I'm not totally alone here) and I think that's a good word to describe someone who puts in so little time and effort and yet achieves so much. He admits to not even watching replays of his losses. How is this guy so good? A: Genius.
Stephano is supremely talented. I would not call him a genius.
TL;DR Stop relying on TLPD to judge players. It’s an extremely flawed system that should only be used as pragmatic shorthand for player ranking within a scene. It falls apart under any real analysis. Also calm the fuck down, I’m not Aemilia.
gema restricted the replays in germany....cant watch. them on youtube. Anyone got some different external links? srsly....that gema association is getting on my nerves. Are they even aloud to shut down those vids, which even blizzard itself allows?
What I dislike about these arguments where haters try to put down Stephano's achievements, is that they are extremely disrespectful of both Stephano as a player AND all those players that he has beaten. In their rush to denigrate Stephano, some people basically resort to implying or explictly stating that various players are rubbish or no good because Stephano managed to beat them. It is just disrespecting these players. A prime example is above we've seen posters above bash Zenio, Real, Puma, JYP and Hero simply because Stephano beat them! Such statements also disrespects all those players that have lost to the likes of Real, Puma, JYP and Hero etc.
Stephano's record of wins/losses are on the record and unalterable. Just cos you dislike/like the player or disapprove of his no-show in this event does not mean that his record of wins/losses should be somehow 'ret-conned' by pretending his opponents were sh1t, or jet-lagged, playing while driving or whatever.
I did not like it when Naniwa probe-rushed at Blizzard Cup. This event did not mean I suddenly attempted to ret-con Naniwa's previous record of impressive results against great players. That would be absurd. Obviously not everyone follows such reasoning...
The amount of player-bashing that goes on in these threads is really quite disappointing. Many foreign pro-gamers read and post in TL and they must find it so disillusioning to see basically everyone who is not one of the 8 players who has won a GSL as being regarded as simply rubbish by some posters! Pro-gamers must have to develop thicker skin than an Ultralisk with Chitinous Plating!!
On April 06 2012 08:46 revel8 wrote: What I dislike about these arguments where haters try to put down Stephano's achievements, is that they are extremely disrespectful of both Stephano as a player AND all those players that he has beaten. In their rush to denigrate Stephano, some people basically resort to implying or explictly stating that various players are rubbish or no good because Stephano managed to beat them. It is just disrespecting these players. A prime example is above we've seen posters above bash Zenio, Real, Puma, JYP and Hero simply because Stephano beat them! Such statements also disrespects all those players that have lost to the likes of Real, Puma, JYP and Hero etc.
Stephano's record of wins/losses are on the record and unalterable. Just cos you dislike/like the player or disapprove of his no-show in this event does not mean that his record of wins/losses should be somehow 'ret-conned' by pretending his opponents were sh1t, or jet-lagged, playing while driving or whatever.
I did not like it when Naniwa probe-rushed at Blizzard Cup. This event did not mean I suddenly attempted to ret-con Naniwa's previous record of impressive results against great players. That would be absurd. Obviously not everyone follows such reasoning...
These posts are not meant to put down Stephano. They are meant to put down the people stating that he is Code S level and make him out to be the best player in the world when he beats a Korean. Do people praise White-Ra when he beats MC or MMA? Yes. Do they say he is the best Protoss? Only the blatant fanboys.
On April 06 2012 08:46 revel8 wrote: What I dislike about these arguments where haters try to put down Stephano's achievements, is that they are extremely disrespectful of both Stephano as a player AND all those players that he has beaten. In their rush to denigrate Stephano, some people basically resort to implying or explictly stating that various players are rubbish or no good because Stephano managed to beat them. It is just disrespecting these players. A prime example is above we've seen posters above bash Zenio, Real, Puma, JYP and Hero simply because Stephano beat them! Such statements also disrespects all those players that have lost to the likes of Real, Puma, JYP and Hero etc.
Stephano's record of wins/losses are on the record and unalterable. Just cos you dislike/like the player or disapprove of his no-show in this event does not mean that his record of wins/losses should be somehow 'ret-conned' by pretending his opponents were sh1t, or jet-lagged, playing while driving or whatever.
I did not like it when Naniwa probe-rushed at Blizzard Cup. This event did not mean I suddenly attempted to ret-con Naniwa's previous record of impressive results against great players. That would be absurd. Obviously not everyone follows such reasoning...
These posts are not meant to put down Stephano. They are meant to put down the people stating that he is Code S level and make him out to be the best player in the world when he beats a Korean. Do people praise White-Ra when he beats MC or MMA? Yes. Do they say he is the best Protoss? Only the blatant fanboys.
Regardless of their intent, they end up bashing numerous players. In a place where pro-gamers participate and lurk. If you want to help de-incentivise players by bashing their achievements and encouraging them to give up and do something else instead then keep calling players rubbish and belittling their wins and achievements. As Artosis would say, that is killing eSports.
I prefer to try and encourage players and credit them for their wins. Maybe just maybe positive feedback will help more pro-gamers stick with it and also encourage more players to aspire to be pro-gamers.
People are going to get carried away and spout hyperbole. That is going to occur, and it might be annoying. However I don't feel that denigrating the skill and achievements of players is the right way to combat overzealous fans. If someone says Player X is almost as good a footballer as Messi, the correct response is not to say that Messi can play football but every other footballer is sh1t and does not have any ability!
When Polt says Stephano is Code S and a genius, is he being polite? Is he being a lying bastard? Is he a deluded fanboy? Is he speaking from a position of being familiar with Code S GSL opponents as well as Stephano's play?
When InControl says Stephano is the perfect Zerg, is he talking shite? Is he just attempting to wind up Idra? Is he secretly in love with men who moisturize? Is he just a blatant fanboy too?
I am no pro-gamer. I will never play Stephano or Code S players. Yet some of those who have are praising Stephano. Maybe they are wrong about Stephano. My understanding of the game is significantly less than the likes of InControl and Polt. Are you stating that they are wrong and you right? Are you claiming to know more about Stephano's level than Polt and InControl? Maybe you do. Maybe you are the future bonjwa of SC2 who will teach us all about SC2?
If you don't like Stephano then fair enough, however if you disrespect all his opponents and dismiss his achievements then just think about those pro-gamers who might read your comments. Are you encouraging them in their efforts, if you basically are claiming that the things that Stephano (arguably the most successful foreign player so far) has achieved are worthy of nothing more than a sneer.
And yes it was a bad thing to do, for Stephano to not show up for his match against MMA. That does not help the SC2 scene at all. Bash him for that, but don't dismiss his achievements or his opponents because of it.
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
Like some of the losses where played on NA server in the middle of the night for Stephano.
If you want to find excuse to koreans to loose to Stephano, you'll have to take into consideration the excuses of Stephano to loose to korean. If you don't your arguments won't be objective, thus worthless.
Except all the games I suggested using were played at LAN events, with the exception of Iron Squid. Which was prerecorded (therefore I assume a reasonable time for both players) and on NA.
On April 05 2012 19:00 samurai80 wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:52 Aemilia wrote:
On April 05 2012 18:43 samurai80 wrote: I made a corrected version : + Show Spoiler +
vs Life 1-2 LOST vs Jjakji 0-2 LOST vs Inori 1-2 LOST vs Polt 1-2 LOST vs Polt 3-1 WON vs Polt 2-1 WON vs aLive 0-2 LOST vs Polt 0-2 LOST vs Zenio 2-0 WON vs Polt 1-4 LOST vs Puma 3-0 WON vs TypeReaL 2-0 WON vs Inori 2-0 WON vs HyuN 2-0 WON vs Violet 3-2 WIN vs Polt 3-2 WON vs MC 0-2 LOST vs MarineKing 0-2 LOST vs Sound 0-2 LOST
Some of those games are featuring Koreans playing on the EU server in the middle of the night. They are worthless.
I don't think they are worthless. If you had a lot of offline games played by Stephano against koreans, I might have agreed with you, but you have too few games to tell about a winrate. Also many of the games I added (those with the best players) were played during NASL qualifier online on the NA server. The disadvantage is for both players.
No, they're worthless. If anybody should realise that small tournament matches don't mean anything it's Stephano fans.
He's played 32 games to Koreans this year that are worthwhile (i.e LAN games + Iron Squid) and won 12. That's a 37% win rate. Which is awful.
Your figures are selective to support your argument and thus highly suspect. You include games played in IronSquid because Stephano lost them but then ignore other games played cross-server because Stephano actually won them. You ignore the wins this year against Hyun and Violet and Zenio and Polt and dismiss them as meaningless because they were cross server but then include the losses to Polt, Jjakji and Life even though these are cross server too. That's massaging the figures to support your argument and is intellectually dishonest. You cannot simply ignore the data that weakens your argument.
If you wish to look at his record in 2012 against Koreans and discuss this, then you need to either look at LAN only results, or include all cross-server games too. You cannot choose LAN only results and then add in a sub-set of the cross-server results and simply ignore the other cross-server results. You've arbitrarily decided which games are worthwhile and which should be ignored and that is so subjective it is meaningless.
It could be argued the most important games Stephano has played this year against Koreans were Assembly Final and the Lone Star Clash against Polt. Both were LANs and thousands of dollars were at stake for the outcome of those specific.
Personally I think Stephano's record against Koreans should include games from 2011. Stephano played some notable opponents in various Tournaments, and played on Korean Ladder and in Blizzard Cup. Stephano did have a disappointing MLG, but will face some tough opponents in IPL4 and is lined up to play in the IGN Fight Club, probably against MC.
While Stephano's no-show is very disappointing behaviour and clearly unprofessional, I don't think attempting to distort his record of past wins/losses serves as a reasonable response.
There's no reason to ignore Stephano's wins against Koreans, but many of those wins are not impressive in the slightest. Hyun is terribad at ZvZ and Inori's PvZ is his worst matchup (Inori has never been able to crack 55% win rate in international competition either, which is kinda pathetic).
There's no reason to include Stephano's games in 2011 unless you want to prove that there is some kind of trend going on. Zenio's ZvP is not nearly as bad as his 2011 record would indicate.
Stephano's beaten Zenio, Puma and Polt and stomped a bunch of other midtier Koreans (Phoenix, typereal, etc.) this year. Why are those wins "not impressive in the slightest"? Stephano had the highest Elo of anyone in International events at one point a couple weeks ago. He had a 90% win rate after 100 games on the EU server. At the one Korean event he went to he beat the best zvz'er in the world and possibly the best vZ Protoss player in the world. In 2011 he had the second best win rate on the KR server among Zergs (which we'll disregard since it happened last year). Less than two weeks ago, he 4-0'd JYP in practice, who some believe also has the best vZ among P in the world. His play this year has generally been outstanding notwithstanding a couple hiccups. Further if you want to discount his online wins you should discount his online losses as well. Moreover, if there's anyone who doesn't care about online tournaments unless there's at least a couple grand on the line, it's Stephano. Nonetheless he generally cleans up. If you look at the his body of work in 2012, you can only conclude that he's performing at an extraordinarily high level even though he still generally only practices on ladder (and not even on the Korean ladder), often practices 3 hours a day (unless he's streaming) and lately is barely playing at all. He's immature, mildly inconsistent against good Koreans but, all considered, the guy is a genius at SC2, and I'm not being hyperbolic here.
Phoenix and TypeReal are not middle-tier, they are extreme low-tier. They are not Code A worthy players and I wouldn't favor them in a ESV Korean Weekly either.
The Zenio win is nice, but you have to give me more than a ZvZ victory to convince me that Stephano can match against the top Korean players (which Zenio is not).
Puma's TvZ is frankly crappy when compared to his contemporaries. His Korean TLPD speaks for itself.
Stephano was able to beat Polt after studying his playstyle, and Polt was equally as stubborn for sticking to the same few builds. Stephano would be hard-pressed to pull the same trick on a player like MarineKing, who is far more flexible with build orders.
Dongraegu is not the best ZvZ player in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity.
Hero is not the best PvZ player in the world and never was.
JYP does not have the best PvZ in the world. He has not proven that in any capacity. I imagine the people who believe that have scant evidence to prove it.
Yes, you are being hyperbolic.
1. Zenio is a top tier zerg. He's in code S and there are only 7 or 8 zegs in Code S total at the moment. ZvZ is one of his better match ups and he lost 2-0 to Stephano. Zenio actually has a higher Elo than DRG in the match up (in Korea) and is #3 overall. 2. Your opinions as to who is the best or worse in a match up are pretty meaningless (as mine are), among other reasons, because you're a nobody and you appear to be a bit of a dope (and I'm not saying that just because we don't agree on this issue but rather because of an apparent complete inability to argue your points effectively, based on your posts in this forum and others). Objectively, JYP and Hero are better against Z than either MC or Parting, e.g., based on their Korean Elos. Along with Genius and Squirtle, JYP is definitely top 3 and I would say Hero is number 4 although there is room for debate here. 3. GSL should hire you to determine who is Code A caliber. I'm writing an unsolicited letter to GSL on your behalf as soon as I'm done posting this. 4. DRG beat Nestea at the GSL and the unofficial crown of King Zerg in zvz passed to him. He has a ridiculous zvz record, but I'm OK with disputing this point; he's not clearly the best in the way that Nestea was before he fell off a bit. Moreover as noted above, his Elo is actually below Zenio's; DRG is definitely top 5 though. 5. My figures are selective but more than sufficient to show how ridiculous many of the statements made in this forum about the level of Stephano's play are. Elo is as objective as it gets in terms of measuring how good you are at the moment on a weighted average basis. You've already lost this argument to the extent you think Stephano is not at least Code S quality. (If you don't think he is, you also would find yourself in disagreement with Nestea, Polt, MVP, MC, etc. on the caliber of his play, but again those are just opinions; facts are facts and his Elo score speaks for itself.) 6. Polt also called Stephano a genius (so I'm not totally alone here) and I think that's a good word to describe someone who puts in so little time and effort and yet achieves so much. He admits to not even watching replays of his losses. How is this guy so good? A: Genius.
It's simply not an effective way to rank player and you know it's not but you don't care as long as it suits you. According to ELO rank, Livezerg is the second best foreigner. Hell, it's just as ridiculous as saying Hero and JYP have the best PvZ so why not? MC hasn't had a game vs Zerg on Korean TLPD in like 3 months, exactly why its ridiculous to say JYP and Hero are "objectively" better than MC and Parting at PvZ at the moment based on ELO, even though MC effortlessly stomps the zergs that Hero loses to(Nerchio stephano violet etc) which is why it's a ridiculous way to rank players matchups.
Maybe ELO/online tournaments are not the best ways to measure the caliber of a player. But I'm not sure looking at a part of Stepahno vs koreans results in 2012, and there are not that many, is the best way neither. So I really agree with The_Darkness about the objectivity of some statements here.
My opinion is that we don't know well enough how much Stephano is able to beat code S caliber player consistently. As mentionned above we do have some clues to believe he is still able to do it, and there is not as many arguments to tell the contrary imo, so that what Aemilia says is way too pessimistic towards Stephano imo.
I wish the Blizzard Cup group stage was not BO1... It was almost played in 2012, and being one of the rare case where Stephano was facing top tiers koreans offline, it still have relatively good relevance imo.
On April 06 2012 04:23 zefreak wrote: Anyone who thinks JYP and Hero have the best PvZ in the world is an idiot. I don't care about the Stephano drama, but some of these distortions by his fans are grasping at straws.
This is not the point here. The point is at least they don't have a bad PvZ which makes Stephano wins against them not as irrelevant as some are trying to convince us (yet I don't exactly agree in the case of JYP cos it was practice).
What about having a look at the articles from the best TL.net writers ? The Power Rank article done for IPL4 here is giving good clues about how players skills are. Obviously,i n no way it is something exact, but many of the arguments are relevant imo.
On April 06 2012 20:30 samurai80 wrote: What about having a look at the articles from the best TL.net writers ? The Power Rank article done for IPL4 here is giving good clues about how players skills are. Obviously,i n no way it is something exact, but many of the arguments are relevant imo.
I already disagree with most of the rankings, and I can provide equally solid arguments to back up my assertions.
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