On March 27 2012 22:43 blacksheepwall wrote:
Not sure if Hero's playing phenomenally or if Curious making massive blunders. Maybe both?

Blinks in and takes out 15 BLs. Lolwut?

little bit of both, mostly Curious screwing up though imo

Pipeline

Sweden1673 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2005

On March 27 2012 22:43 FrozenFrotie wrote:
WTF why dual sight again...

Its a bo3 and loser picks. Very logical

Eurekastreet

1308 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2006

Does anyone know if there's a custom game to download and train at phoenix micro ?

It seems to be efficient if you're comfortable with it but every time I go for it is ladder ( therefore not often) and it ends up in a disaster....

Plague1503

Croatia466 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2007

On March 27 2012 22:43 FrozenFrotie wrote:
WTF why dual sight again...

Yeah that map REALLY should be scrapped from tournament play sometime soon.

tomatriedes

New Zealand5356 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2008

On March 27 2012 22:42 Hider wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 27 2012 22:32 trwkling wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:29 Vega62a wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:23 Hider wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:16 rothsbury wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:13 Hider wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:08 rothsbury wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:03 HwangjaeTerran wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:01 rothsbury wrote:

On March 27 2012 21:56 Fluffboll wrote:
[quote]

Actually, if you produce enough vikings to take out the Brood Lords and Corruptors the tech switch to Ultra/Ling will kill you so Terran lategame is really bad versus zerg lategame at this moment in time. Terrans can still win vs zerg by not letting the zerg get to the lategame however.

That's an economy issue then; broodlord/corruptor is really expensive, so if the terran has let the zerg get such an economic lead that the zerg can afford to lose all his corruptors and broods and then mass out of ultra/lings, then you were probably behind anyway. In a lot of broodlord corruptor pushes the zerg uses all of his money on those units, so if he loses them he can't really afford a big tech switch.

I think that leads us to the point: Don't let zerg reach the lategame. I wouldn't call fast tech with no economy to back it up lategame.

Lategame =/= letting zerg do whatever he wants. If you let the zerg sit on 5 bases without attacking for 20 mins, then yeah they gcan do that really expensive gas switch no problem. The idea is that even in the lategame you deny expansions, snipe expos, trade armies etc. so the zerg can't build up a giant bank while on 200/200.

Edit: also drops are really good against zerg lategame. Couple of dropships can kill a lot of tech / drones etc..

Watch stephano plays. He has great multitasking. And simply deals with early attacks. There is no way (IMO) that you can do a lot of damage early game/midgame to a zerg who simply plays very well like stephano. What works on your ladder game isn't suppoed to work on top top zerg players. And its only gonna get worse in the future (zergs gonna get better and better), untill (if) the terran finds a way to beat the army.

Well yeah, but Stephano is hardly invincible. Also, what you're describing can be explained by Stephano being more skilled than the terrans he faces. (But again, he's not invincible; he is beaten by good terrans like Polt a lot of the time.) You can't just point to one good player and say "oh zerg can't be dealt with"; maybe you need a terran stephano?

But what is the terran supposed to do? The problem is right now that when the zerg gets to a certain skill level, he learns how to deal with the immoblity issues of broodlord/infestor. And then he will be able to absolutely crush every single terran players in a straight up battle. So the terran needs to find a way to be somewhat efficient against broodlord/infestor.

Maybe they will find a way. But currently no terran has a long-term solution for this. And this isn't about skill level. The terran can have 400+ APM, (like MKP micro + fantastic knowledge of the game), but he still wont be able to beat a zerg who doesn't make mistakes.

So the thing is: Terran needs to find a way to win late game, and the long term solution isn't gonna be counterattacking. The long-term solution has to be a unit composition that can at least trade somewhat even in a battle (of course given good micro) with broodlord/infestor.

This feels like kind of an oversimplification. Saying a zerg "Just learns how to deal with drops" discounts the Terran's role in making drops work. (Day9 used to talk about that in his earlier dailies, although it was never a focus.)

Why does Terran's solution need to be a unit composition that can trade evenly with Zerg's? Why can't it be a whole game plan that puts the terran in a favorable position lategame? Why can't it be counterattack-based?

i must agree with this.
i think the argument for "balance" shouldn't be about how all races can trade effectively with each other at each stage but that they have different strengths and the player must exploit the strengths to position himself to take the game.
so i'd think (and i lose a lot to zergs late game as terran) that the question is not really about whether they late game is balanced or the mid game is balanced or whatever, its just about how you manipulate your resources

Why was ghost ever nerfed according to your logic? Ghost heavy army still had distadvantages (being immobile vs pure speedlings).

But the problem is that the strenght of bio/mech (from the terran perspective vs broodlord/infestor) isn't mobile enough. Its a pretty immobile earmy where you trade to beat an army that is 20% less mobile. That simply doesn't have any long term solution.

I mean it could be a long-term solution if the more mobile army was 50%+ more mobile (like bio is vs mech in tvt). But the advantage of the terran army against zerg is simply way to little to compensate for the fact that you get roflstomped in a pure battle (probably as a rule of thumb: If the army is 20% less mobile it should only be 20% more efficient in a battle - but right now its like 20% less mobile, 50% more efficient - given that both players micro at top korean level).

Obv. above numbers are pulled out of my ass, but I feel like they still put up a good argument of why terran either needs a buff or needs to innovate them selves.

Can you take this whining crap out of the LR please?

bgx

Poland6595 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2009

Code S sometimes seems so polluted with bad play, its like seeing 2010 again and again.

samurai80

Japan4225 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2010

I wish Curious and HerO both made it to RO16 but at least I hope HerO will.

GoingGoingGone

Slovakia529 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2011

On March 27 2012 22:43 vndods wrote:
No one chooses the new maps lolol. Only way we will see them is if GOM has it as the first map i guess.

We saw Ohana yesterday, at least.

Btw, Dual sight... Hero all-in's, calling it now.

Ketch

Netherlands7285 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2012

Hero is on the left! He can take the map now!

Syrupjuice

United States173 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2013

On March 27 2012 19:45 Dodgin wrote:
CARRIERS WIN A GAME IN CODE S! also PHOENIX UPGRADE! ( yeah I know the carriers were a support unit but STILL! )

LOL HERO I LOVE YOU

I have always thought that carriers served as a better support unit than as the main bulk of your army. Glad to see a pro shed some light on my thoughts.

Ahelvin

France1866 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2014

Do a 9gate HuK or something.

Tear his eyeballs away.

Asha

United Kingdom38149 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2015

On March 27 2012 22:43 HaXXspetten wrote:

Show nested quote +

little bit of both, mostly Curious screwing up though imo

Almost entirely Curious screwing up >___<

Shouldn't be physically possible to blow a game like that.

FakeDeath

Malaysia6060 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2016

On March 27 2012 22:43 zefreak wrote:
Damn it why did curious have to knock out Gumiho.. Curious looked bad last season as well.

Honestly, these 2 players play don't deserve to be in round of 16 .THEIR PLAY ARE SLOPPY
losing 2 collosus and so much stuff and then curious bungled an unloseable game.

Plague1503

Croatia466 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2017

What are the new maps anyway? Sorry for being ignorant.

Jaegeru

United Kingdom676 Posts

March 27 2012 13:44 GMT

#2018

On March 27 2012 22:43 blacksheepwall wrote:
Not sure if Hero's playing phenomenally or if Curious making massive blunders. Maybe both?

Blinks in and takes out 15 BLs. Lolwut?

I wouldn't exactly call sniping 10+ broodlords chillin' in the middle of the map without support phenomenal play but rather a massive mistake.