On April 04 2012 04:51 m0ck wrote: I would also much rather see Belshir than Ohana - Ohana may be the single most imbalanced map (in a single match-up). As of today, terrans have a 66% ~winrate versus zerg on the map. As a comparison, steppes of war has a 58 % winrate for terran.. ^^
*Just checked, and it seems metropolis is the Ohana equivalent for zergs, as it favors zergs just about as much vs terran. In that case, I have no problem having Ohana in the map-pool.
i can tell you on belshir P only got 44% winrate overall (i got loads of master-GM replays to draw those stats on)
Wow, is it just me or did this discussion take a turn for the weirder for anyone else?
I am not a map expert. I am not even an expert SC2 player or analyst. However, there has been since the launch of the game a popular dissatisfaction with the state of maps, proliferated in just about every avenue available. Not only about balance, but also about aesthetics, about diversity and about diversity in most aspects of the game.
Right now we see an interesting turn of events. Blizzard is starting to incorporate maps made outside of the company into the ladder. More and more tournament organizers are looking outside of what has been staple maps for new options.
Finding a tight map pool for any tournament is a process that will inevitably take time. In the meantime, it is a given that we will see tournaments with map choices that cannot, by necessity, please everyone. With DreamHack, they have their own views on how their maps, systematically, should work. They are clearly alright with a big map pool, as mentioned in previous posts, their double blind veto process necessitates a bigger map pool.
Without any kind of governance overseeing tournaments, the only real method of finding what constitutes good maps between a plethora of different organizations is to collect data. Introducing new maps into the tournament scene will always lead to a situation where some or perhaps even most players will veto maps that are new; there is nothing that can be done about that outside of an organizer holding a tournament featuring exclusively new or untested maps. Of course the mainstream tournaments will be much more likely to do so than a mapmaker, fx ESV. But as long as there is no governance, we can only move towards more stable maps by either continuing to allow new maps to become part of tournaments piecemeal and analyzing the results afterwards or by stifling the evolution of maps altogether by only using what has been established.
It is not a pretty process, but blasting tournaments for actually taking the chance on new maps seems both shortsighted and counterproductive if what we are aiming for is to reach a state where we can have the best of both worlds; both continuing development of new maps and a stable core of tournament maps. I do not think that many people will agree that we have even begun to see the pinnacle of SC2 maps at present.
Finally, it is fairly abhorrent to see a mapmaker community lambasted for actually doing well and getting somewhere in their work. I have no ties with any of them, but I wish them all the best of luck and will be happy to see them all succeed. I do not however expect to see any of them do so unless they strive to do everything they can to become a premier source of quality maps; an integral part of this of course being able to deliver quantifiable data and evidence.
Good on DreamHack for taking the chance on new maps. They are clearly open to new ideas. If other mapmakers than ESV want to contribute, they clearly should be in contact with the organizers. They are not hard to find. If they then find out that somehow ESV have exclusivity clauses on their maps and are barring other communities or organizations from having their maps used, then can we start discussing monopolies.
On April 04 2012 05:55 DYEAlabaster wrote: [quote]
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
I don't know if there is a word for it (but I'm pretty sure there is), but it's not a monopoly there is 2 teams who have maps in every tournament and etc, ESV and Crux. Just only ESV makes any effort at all of brand recognition unlike Crux so that's why you don't see "Crux Daybreak" etc. So we might have a brand name monopoly on maps, but that's again a fualt of the other mapmaking teams.
Also NASL uses like almost all TPW maps, IPL uses Darkenss Falls, it's not like TPW has 0 representation. Just they have no overall manager that is not a mapmaker to handle things like tournament relations so they are spreading slower.
Every single one of the "problems" (besides map overlapping) is something that other teams have failed to do that ESV has. And just like any other business on the planet, if you are not offering a complete and competitive product, you will get left in the dust. It's the reason I run the ESV Mapmaking Team like a business despite it never making money (and in fact losing me thousands upon thousands of $ across the past 2 years), I know that you have to maintain that mentality to be the best. Right now ESV I think is the best mapmaking team out there, and we offer both a competitive product (also which TPW delivers) that is complete (Korean pro testing, KW to test the maps, etc, which TPW does NOT offer).
In short, like every other part of competitive SC2 (streaming, LAN's, casting, etc) the game has changed, and those that do not change their game to go along with this will slowly disappear.
Also please don't think I am mad or hate you or anything, I just love debating maps and your first line seemed a bit questionable. I appreciate the discussion.
I feel that Crux has dominance because they work directly with GSL, which is free branding, because the best games in the world are played on their fields. I feel that ESV is the only company that has really "made themselves" so to speak.
I think we essentially agree- that if want to see branding diversity in map pools, other mappers have to step up their game in order to achieve the same success that you (and ESV) have. Until then, you will probably still have a majority control over the 'foreign' mapping scene.
That being said, whoever has the majority share in maps at any tournament is a waypoint for me, as long as the maps being represented are good.
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
I don't know if there is a word for it (but I'm pretty sure there is), but it's not a monopoly there is 2 teams who have maps in every tournament and etc, ESV and Crux. Just only ESV makes any effort at all of brand recognition unlike Crux so that's why you don't see "Crux Daybreak" etc. So we might have a brand name monopoly on maps, but that's again a fualt of the other mapmaking teams.
Also NASL uses like almost all TPW maps, IPL uses Darkenss Falls, it's not like TPW has 0 representation. Just they have no overall manager that is not a mapmaker to handle things like tournament relations so they are spreading slower.
Every single one of the "problems" (besides map overlapping) is something that other teams have failed to do that ESV has. And just like any other business on the planet, if you are not offering a complete and competitive product, you will get left in the dust. It's the reason I run the ESV Mapmaking Team like a business despite it never making money (and in fact losing me thousands upon thousands of $ across the past 2 years), I know that you have to maintain that mentality to be the best. Right now ESV I think is the best mapmaking team out there, and we offer both a competitive product (also which TPW delivers) that is complete (Korean pro testing, KW to test the maps, etc, which TPW does NOT offer).
In short, like every other part of competitive SC2 (streaming, LAN's, casting, etc) the game has changed, and those that do not change their game to go along with this will slowly disappear.
Also please don't think I am mad or hate you or anything, I just love debating maps and your first line seemed a bit questionable. I appreciate the discussion.
I feel that Crux has dominance because they work directly with GSL, which is free branding, because the best games in the world are played on their fields. I feel that ESV is the only company that has really "made themselves" so to speak.
I think we essentially agree- that if want to see branding diversity in map pools, other mappers have to step up their game in order to achieve the same success that you (and ESV) have. Until then, you will probably still have a majority control over the 'foreign' mapping scene.
That being said, whoever has the majority share in maps at any tournament is a waypoint for me, as long as the maps being represented are good.
Koreans have dominated the map scene through the entire starcraft original/BW scene and it wasn't a problem for you then I assume. The foreign map scene is now finally able to shed some light and now it's a problem for you because a long-time foreign map team is getting clutch hits while others aren't?
On April 04 2012 06:47 Porcelina wrote: If they then find out that somehow ESV have exclusivity clauses on their maps and are barring other communities or organizations from having their maps used, then can we start discussing monopolies.
Just want to squash this before it even gets close, we not only don't own our maps (Blizzard does, thanks EULA!) but we don't even do formal contracts to use them, meaning there is no exclusivity clause and I would never try and do one, it's horribly counter productive to anyone.
On April 04 2012 06:47 Porcelina wrote: I do not think that many people will agree that we have even begun to see the pinnacle of SC2 maps at present.
I just want to highlight this. As good as mappers like LS, Winpark, Superouman, Ragoo, and others may be, we have seen maybe at best .01% of the potential of mapping. There is so much unexplored.
On April 04 2012 06:03 DYEAlabaster wrote: [quote]
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
I don't know if there is a word for it (but I'm pretty sure there is), but it's not a monopoly there is 2 teams who have maps in every tournament and etc, ESV and Crux. Just only ESV makes any effort at all of brand recognition unlike Crux so that's why you don't see "Crux Daybreak" etc. So we might have a brand name monopoly on maps, but that's again a fualt of the other mapmaking teams.
Also NASL uses like almost all TPW maps, IPL uses Darkenss Falls, it's not like TPW has 0 representation. Just they have no overall manager that is not a mapmaker to handle things like tournament relations so they are spreading slower.
Every single one of the "problems" (besides map overlapping) is something that other teams have failed to do that ESV has. And just like any other business on the planet, if you are not offering a complete and competitive product, you will get left in the dust. It's the reason I run the ESV Mapmaking Team like a business despite it never making money (and in fact losing me thousands upon thousands of $ across the past 2 years), I know that you have to maintain that mentality to be the best. Right now ESV I think is the best mapmaking team out there, and we offer both a competitive product (also which TPW delivers) that is complete (Korean pro testing, KW to test the maps, etc, which TPW does NOT offer).
In short, like every other part of competitive SC2 (streaming, LAN's, casting, etc) the game has changed, and those that do not change their game to go along with this will slowly disappear.
Also please don't think I am mad or hate you or anything, I just love debating maps and your first line seemed a bit questionable. I appreciate the discussion.
I feel that Crux has dominance because they work directly with GSL, which is free branding, because the best games in the world are played on their fields. I feel that ESV is the only company that has really "made themselves" so to speak.
I think we essentially agree- that if want to see branding diversity in map pools, other mappers have to step up their game in order to achieve the same success that you (and ESV) have. Until then, you will probably still have a majority control over the 'foreign' mapping scene.
That being said, whoever has the majority share in maps at any tournament is a waypoint for me, as long as the maps being represented are good.
Koreans have dominated the map scene through the entire starcraft original/BW scene and it wasn't a problem for you then I assume. The foreign map scene is now finally able to shed some light and now it's a problem for you because a long-time foreign map team is getting clutch hits while others aren't?
I actually hated that Koreans had a dominance in (all of) BW. Almost all players, mappers, etc. hailed from korea. This was true for players, but doubly so for mappers. I hated that aspect of BW. I'm glad that 'foregin' mapping is gaining traction, I'd just like to see it at the end-stage.
You'll notice about me- I'm very socialistic in my views
Regarding the map pool size argument that just went on, while Diamond does make some good points about how players won't immediately start providing map-specific strategies right away in a tournament with a smaller map pool, I do feel like until tournaments start shedding the map pool sizes down to a reasonable 4/5, we won't ever see it happen outside of a few edge cases.
It's difficult for pro players to actually begin that process until they're in an environment that allows it to happen, IMO. When they don't have to spend all their time simply learning the basic concepts of 7-9 different maps, they can start to put the time saved into really learning those fewer maps more intimately. We won't see the fruits of that labour immediately, but I think it would come eventually.
In that regard, I'm not the biggest fan of Dreamhack's map pool -- on top of the inclusion of both Shakuras Plateau and Metalopolis... wtf are those maps doing in there?
Could you like take this map discussion elsewhere? Thats some serious thread hijacking there.
For me as a spectator I love to see new maps and designs. Keeping to old ones or lowering numbers in a map pool reduces the viewing experience by a good bit. And I expect anyone who call themself a progamer to be able to perform on any map given to them these days.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
Why would you say "open your eyes", and then proceed not to tell us what we are supposed to be seeing...
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
Why would you say "open your eyes", and then proceed not to tell us what we are supposed to be seeing...
What confuses me the most is I don't know what he's referring to:
1) Still having old maps in the pool
or
2) Having 2 new maps that he doesn't want to learn? I mean, pros should know that new maps are going to come around, and they'll have to learn them eventually.
On April 04 2012 07:57 Xeris wrote: Nothing wrong with custom maps... they're great. I also think people put way too much emphasis / fuss on naming maps.
You mean like the actual names or the ESV/MLG/etc or something else?
I'll sum up my opinions on the map pool (as a mapmaker for ESV)- and this is being entirely honest.
Dreamhack is being really risky by picking new maps, and I think it will pay off. Even if there are some minor imbalances, as there probably will be (nothing can be determined yet, like Ohana, because the sample size is too small), the maps could lead to new gameplay innovation. It also really helps mapmakers learn what works and what doesn't, plus it gives us lots of balance statistics. Honestly it is so difficult to make balanced maps without experimenting and testing like Dreamhack is doing. So if you ask me, it is a good thing that Dreamhack is picking new maps.
Did Dreamhack pick the right maps? Imo ESV has some other maps available that are better. Frigid Pass and Vicious are both highly experimental and could end badly. Vicious, in particular, has either a very open third or a very far third depending on where you spawn; PvZ especially is likely to be the most affected match up. There are a few other maps that are solid from mapmaking teams, but as Diamond said, they don't conduct themselves as a business and deliver a full product. Dreamhack might have been able to pick better maps (although I can't be 100% certain since I don't know what criteria they judged the maps on, what they looked at, etc.) but it was a good move no matter what.
On April 04 2012 06:47 Porcelina wrote: Good on DreamHack for taking the chance on new maps. They are clearly open to new ideas. If other mapmakers than ESV want to contribute, they clearly should be in contact with the organizers. They are not hard to find. If they then find out that somehow ESV have exclusivity clauses on their maps and are barring other communities or organizations from having their maps used, then can we start discussing monopolies.
I'd just like to point out that i did in fact try to contact dreamhack in february when we last updated our map pool, but never got any reply! I might have wrote to the wrong person, I don't know. I contacted pretty much all of the big tournaments, but mostly got no reply or have been told they don't want to use unknown/untested maps, despite them being successfull in MotM and other mapmaking competitions. Only very few were interested. Like diamond has suggested, the best way would be to host our own tournament. But we don't have anyone like diamond in our team willing to put that much time, money and effort into organizing tournaments, casting, sponsors, etc. Unless we do as much, we can't really complain about it. If any tournament organizers want to work with TPW they are welcome to contact me, otherwise, i don't see it happening at the moment. :D
w00t, go go dreamhack! Congrats ESV on getting your maps in the pool. I do kind of wish they'd get rid of Shakuras since Frigid shares kind of the same feel. Same could be said for Antiga with Vicious!
Either way, looking forward to this.
Also, about trying to contact tournament officials, it's funny because it's extremely hard to actually get a hold of major tournament officials to try your map out. Yet even when they do pick up your map, trying to send them new versions so they will update the map is just as much of a nightmare. At least that is my experience with IPL.....
I think they should have used existing maps when possible instead of making new maps with the prefix 'Dreamhack'. For example Dreamhack Shakuras Plateau (cross/close-by-air spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp) is the same as ESL Shakuras Plateu. The new name just adds confusion for the players since it's yet another Shakuras to remember.
EPT
I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
