The first event of DreamHack EIZO Open will be held in the European Capital of eSports - Stockholm, Sweden. On April 21-22 we open the doors to Annexet in direct connection to Ericsson Globe, where we have room for over 2,300 people in the seated audience. DreamHack EIZO Open is a two day experience with two unique flavors. Ticket release 14.00 CET Tuesday 27th of March.
DreamHack is back in Stockholm with The World’s best eSports Show. This time we move to a bigger venue, Annexet (part of Stockholms no.1 Sports- and Entertainment District Stockholm Globe Arenas) with 2,300 individual seats. DreamHack will offer a two day experience with two unique flavors.
Day 1 opens up with the group stage in a tournament area where the audience can get up and close to the players, watch matches on-site and meet the Stars in fan meetings etc. Day 2 is a full StarCraft stage-show as seen on DreamHack Invitational in 2011, but now upgraded and improved, for example with a 12 metre 16-projection screen! Both days are included in the ticket price of only SEK 199.
EsportBar at Location The BarCraft phenomenon is growing stronger by minute and at DreamHack EIZO Open Stockholm you can have the full BarCraft experience at the venue, thanks to EIZO. The Esport Bar is serving beer, wine, soft drinks and food during both event days. It will be located on the second floor, on a huge balcony, where you can easily watch the whole show. You will of course find some special eSports drinks on the menu and the area will be reserved for 18+ people only.
Free HD broadcast powered by Twitch.TV If you can’t attend the event you can still watch the whole show. DreamHack EIZO Open Stockholm will be broadcasted in HD for free over the Internet available for all fans that can't be on location, additional languages and community streams will be available.
Event info: Tournament: DreamHack EIZO Open Stockholm Tournament sponsors: EIZO, Sapphire, AMD, Twitch.TV Tournament Game: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty Venue: Ericsson Globe Annexet Date: 21-22 April Opens: 10.00 CET, 21st of April Ends: 24.00 CET, 22st of April EsportBar: Oh yes After-Party: You bet! No. of seats: 2,300 Ticket price: 199 SEK
Spectator ticket: How do I attend the event and watch it live DreamHack will release a limited number of spectator tickets to DreamHack EIZO Open: Stockholm. Each Spectator ticket grants access to the event 10:00-24:00 each day. It also includes a personal seat in the Stage Show (Sunday 15.00-24.00), and access to meet the Stars in fan meetings, food & beverage stands, on-site activities like sponsor booths and the possibility to watch matches in our Tournament Area. If you’re 18 years or older you have the possibility to attend the Esport Bar and the After-party as well.
The Spectator ticket will be available for SEK 199 + service charges (20-30 SEK) and is paid with credit card (VISA / MasterCard) through Sweden’s largest ticket retailer www.ticnet.se. Ticket release is 14.00 CET Tuesday 27th of March. First come, first served.
Important notice: First day, 21st of April, not featuring the Stage show, will have limited no. of slots, due to fire regulations and arena limitations. And if you want to attend both days, you need to select that option when booking your ticket at Ticnet.
Competitor ticket: How do I register and compete in the tournament DreamHack will release a limited number of Competitor tickets to the the StarCraft II tournament at DreamHack EIZO Open: Stockholm. Tournament will consist of 3 group stages in order to qualify the best players to the final single elimination playoffs. The first group stage holds 128 players, the second group stage holds 64 players and the third group stage holds 32 players. The final 16 players will play a single-elimination bracket.
The tournament fee to attend the tournament will be SEK 300 and is paid by credit card (VISA / MasterCard) through our website: bokning.dreamhack.se. Ticket release is 14:00 CET Tuesday 27th of March. First come, first served.
DreamHack Open Prize money distribution SEK 150 000
Each player will have two blind vetos. The played maps and order will be random generated
Dreamhack Shakuras Plateau – Cross/Close-by-air spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack GSL Daybreak GSL version with the limited forward third base – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack GSL Metropolis . GSL version with Creep on islands – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack ESV Cloud Kingdom – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack ESV Ohana – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack ESV Vicious – All spawns enabled – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack ESV Frigid Pass – All spawn enabled – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack Antiga Shipyard – cross spawn only -gold bases exchanged to neutral – fixed lower right base so pylon power cant reach natural from third’s cliff – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack Metalopolis – gold bases exchanged to regular bases – cross and close-by-air enforced spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp
DreamHack EIZO Open Fan Award It´s a free HD stream, but we know that many fans wish to support the tournament and the players, you can now do this by using the social micropayment system Flattr. All donations will go directly to the DreamHack EIZO Open Fan Award.
The winner of DreamHack EIZO Open Fan Award will be determined by YOU, the fans at location and all those watching the stream online. The player with most votes will be awarded all the donations, we at DreamHack have already put in 10 000 SEK to start it all up.
The voting for players will be launched during the event, donations are welcome as of now!
Holy shit I wouldn't ever have dreamed that SC2 would be shown at Annexet o_o would've thought somewhere on Kungsholmen or near Liljeholmen! Globen nästa, so hyped! :D Gonna try to snag a competitor pass for sure!
On March 23 2012 03:16 Tryxtira wrote: If ticnet crashes at 1400 this Tuesday and I therefore do not get tickets, I will personally destroy that company.
Time to finally get my friends involved in E-Sports. Was just waiting for a massive venue like this, so I could be sure to win them over or at least impress them with the E-sports potential.
Ty Ty DreamHack =D <3
Edit; When can we expect Caster and player list to come out!?
Do you guys think they will be able to compete with MLG for the best players. MLG is probably flying players out again... soo my guess is that we unfortunantly will have a tournament without the top players except for the korean bteam and stephano trying to win some cash. That is honestly not that exciting. Il buy at ticket anyhow probably just cause its in town.
On March 23 2012 05:37 KaptenCulpa wrote: Do you guys think they will be able to compete with MLG for the best players. MLG is probably flying players out again... soo my guess is that we unfortunantly will have a tournament without the top players except for the korean bteam and stephano trying to win some cash. That is honestly not that exciting. Il buy at ticket anyhow probably just cause its in town.
I think we'll have both SaSe and Naniwa there, SaSe even skipped MLG to practice for DH:W last year and Naniwa has mentioned many times that he really wants to win Dreamhack.
MLG on the same weekend? I thought the bigger companies were trying to avoid this from happening?... The event seems awesome though and I'll try to be there in person!
On March 23 2012 05:37 KaptenCulpa wrote: Do you guys think they will be able to compete with MLG for the best players. MLG is probably flying players out again... soo my guess is that we unfortunantly will have a tournament without the top players except for the korean bteam and stephano trying to win some cash. That is honestly not that exciting. Il buy at ticket anyhow probably just cause its in town.
Dreamhack will have the top EU players + some Koreans MLG will have the top NA players + some Koreans
Go figure which lineup will be better. Hint: EU > NA :D
Holy shit this is like 10 minutes walking from my place. I'm glad I decided to move to Sweden. Now just to tie a rope to my apartment so I can find my way home after the afterparty
On March 23 2012 05:37 KaptenCulpa wrote: Do you guys think they will be able to compete with MLG for the best players. MLG is probably flying players out again... soo my guess is that we unfortunantly will have a tournament without the top players except for the korean bteam and stephano trying to win some cash. That is honestly not that exciting. Il buy at ticket anyhow probably just cause its in town.
Dreamhack will have the top EU players + some Koreans MLG will have the top NA players + some Koreans
Go figure which lineup will be better. Hint: EU > NA :D
DO you realy think the top 8 europeans will rather pay to go to Stockholm or take the free trip to NYC. Same with the Koreans, and top 8 from winter championship. Im afraid where gonna have the korean b team and some good swedes. MLG fing up 2 big european events in a row is not ok.
On March 23 2012 05:37 KaptenCulpa wrote: Do you guys think they will be able to compete with MLG for the best players. MLG is probably flying players out again... soo my guess is that we unfortunantly will have a tournament without the top players except for the korean bteam and stephano trying to win some cash. That is honestly not that exciting. Il buy at ticket anyhow probably just cause its in town.
Dreamhack will have the top EU players + some Koreans MLG will have the top NA players + some Koreans
Go figure which lineup will be better. Hint: EU > NA :D
DO you realy think the top 8 europeans will rather pay to go to Stockholm or take the free trip to NYC. Same with the Koreans, and top 8 from winter championship. Im afraid where gonna have the korean b team and some good swedes. MLG fing up 2 big european events in a row is not ok.
Assembly was still an amazing tournament.
There is enough talent in the scene to support 2 tournaments at once.
On March 23 2012 05:37 KaptenCulpa wrote: Do you guys think they will be able to compete with MLG for the best players. MLG is probably flying players out again... soo my guess is that we unfortunantly will have a tournament without the top players except for the korean bteam and stephano trying to win some cash. That is honestly not that exciting. Il buy at ticket anyhow probably just cause its in town.
Dreamhack will have the top EU players + some Koreans MLG will have the top NA players + some Koreans
Go figure which lineup will be better. Hint: EU > NA :D
DO you realy think the top 8 europeans will rather pay to go to Stockholm or take the free trip to NYC. Same with the Koreans, and top 8 from winter championship. Im afraid where gonna have the korean b team and some good swedes. MLG fing up 2 big european events in a row is not ok.
Assembly was still an amazing tournament.
There is enough talent in the scene to support 2 tournaments at once.
Im not saying that the quality of play isent gonna be great, or that assembely was a bad tournament. But its just not gonna be that intresting watching tournament without the top players. I atleast am not gonna be as much emotionaly involved if the dont come. Dreamhack need to start offering selected topplayers free trips if the sign on to DH before mlg qualifiers. Im talking about players like: Drg, MC, MMA, HUK, Idra, Naniwa, Marineking (wich are realy good or have big fanbases). they need to ensure that they get atleast half of the top 10 players in the world.
I enjoyed Assembly way more than MLG Winter Arena.
Better games, better format, live audience. And I don't think MLG had the much better lineup anyway, Assembly had Stephano, Polt, Taeja, Puma, Lucky, Hero, JYP, WhiteRa, Kas, ...
The European Capital of esports is still cologne germany but the swedes again... after the first pictures of some other stadiums im looking forward to pictures of their queen and some swedish flags like last year *smile* oh man,americans or germans are so chilled in comparison
anyways.looking forward to the tournament.DH always delivers.
Mainly because it will be a fun SC2-event. I hope to see some new talent in the SC2 scene.
Not sure how many people will tune in to watch the stream if many of the 'best' players won't be there though. But since it is a free HD-stream I think DH will get a decent viewer count.
Wow this looks actually amazing! Hope to see more details released in the near future. Will this competition be truly OPEN or will there be a # of invites? Three group stages sounds like overkill for any pro player being involved. CAN'T WAIT!!!! Looks like Day9 will be at all of them. Hopefully you will release names of other casters and the # of streams that will be available! Is there no daily BYOC tournament?
On March 23 2012 05:37 KaptenCulpa wrote: Do you guys think they will be able to compete with MLG for the best players. MLG is probably flying players out again... soo my guess is that we unfortunantly will have a tournament without the top players except for the korean bteam and stephano trying to win some cash. That is honestly not that exciting. Il buy at ticket anyhow probably just cause its in town.
Dreamhack will have the top EU players + some Koreans MLG will have the top NA players + some Koreans
Go figure which lineup will be better. Hint: EU > NA :D
DO you realy think the top 8 europeans will rather pay to go to Stockholm or take the free trip to NYC. Same with the Koreans, and top 8 from winter championship. Im afraid where gonna have the korean b team and some good swedes. MLG fing up 2 big european events in a row is not ok.
Assembly was still an amazing tournament.
There is enough talent in the scene to support 2 tournaments at once.
Im not saying that the quality of play isent gonna be great, or that assembely was a bad tournament. But its just not gonna be that intresting watching tournament without the top players. I atleast am not gonna be as much emotionaly involved if the dont come. Dreamhack need to start offering selected topplayers free trips if the sign on to DH before mlg qualifiers. Im talking about players like: Drg, MC, MMA, HUK, Idra, Naniwa, Marineking (wich are realy good or have big fanbases). they need to ensure that they get atleast half of the top 10 players in the world.
Well, the "current top10 of the world" can't possibly be everywhere every time. With that logic, MLG should be fucking boring with teams Slayers, FXO and IM missing- since compared to them the rest of the world can't be really considered "top"...
On March 23 2012 05:37 KaptenCulpa wrote: Do you guys think they will be able to compete with MLG for the best players. MLG is probably flying players out again... soo my guess is that we unfortunantly will have a tournament without the top players except for the korean bteam and stephano trying to win some cash. That is honestly not that exciting. Il buy at ticket anyhow probably just cause its in town.
Dreamhack will have the top EU players + some Koreans MLG will have the top NA players + some Koreans
Go figure which lineup will be better. Hint: EU > NA :D
DO you realy think the top 8 europeans will rather pay to go to Stockholm or take the free trip to NYC. Same with the Koreans, and top 8 from winter championship. Im afraid where gonna have the korean b team and some good swedes. MLG fing up 2 big european events in a row is not ok.
Assembly was still an amazing tournament.
There is enough talent in the scene to support 2 tournaments at once.
Im not saying that the quality of play isent gonna be great, or that assembely was a bad tournament. But its just not gonna be that intresting watching tournament without the top players. I atleast am not gonna be as much emotionaly involved if the dont come. Dreamhack need to start offering selected topplayers free trips if the sign on to DH before mlg qualifiers. Im talking about players like: Drg, MC, MMA, HUK, Idra, Naniwa, Marineking (wich are realy good or have big fanbases). they need to ensure that they get atleast half of the top 10 players in the world.
did you watch MLG Arena? I had more fun watching Assembly than MLG Arena.
I was more emotional involved in the Assembly tournament. MLG Arena had no crowd and MKP winning felt empty. MLG Arena had probably one of the best lineups excluding GSL and it didn't deliver like it should have being a PPV event. The DH that Hero won was great and probably didn't have that great of an all-star lineup but it sure beat MLG's Arena event. The invitationals that DH holds has like maybe 2 top players (or not even) and the events are always a success to me.
On March 23 2012 05:37 KaptenCulpa wrote: Do you guys think they will be able to compete with MLG for the best players. MLG is probably flying players out again... soo my guess is that we unfortunantly will have a tournament without the top players except for the korean bteam and stephano trying to win some cash. That is honestly not that exciting. Il buy at ticket anyhow probably just cause its in town.
Dreamhack will have the top EU players + some Koreans MLG will have the top NA players + some Koreans
Go figure which lineup will be better. Hint: EU > NA :D
DO you realy think the top 8 europeans will rather pay to go to Stockholm or take the free trip to NYC. Same with the Koreans, and top 8 from winter championship. Im afraid where gonna have the korean b team and some good swedes. MLG fing up 2 big european events in a row is not ok.
I don't understand what you are talking about? Is there a MLG event on the same weekend (21-22.04.12) as the Dreamhack? Just asking because I can't find any information on the mlg page about it. If not, wth are you talking about? If an event is happening at the same time, you are right, it will definitly affect both tournaments negatively because they have to "fight" to get the best players. But on the other way this could turn out to be good for the players, because the tournament hosters have to offer free trips or other benefits to convince players to attend their tournament.
On March 23 2012 16:59 RayBeans wrote: Is there a MLG event on the same weekend (21-22.04.12) as the Dreamhack?
Yeah. One of the two MLG Spring Arenas is on Aplril 20-22 as DreamHack Open Stockholm is on 21-22. See MLG's post. Second Spring Arena is on May 18-20.
If DreamHack is going to go with the open signup, starting on March 27th, as they say, they will have some trouble getting all the big names in. However, I think they will invite players to join even before the 27th, and make the players accepting invites to promise they won't try to qualify for the MLG.
Remember that the MLG Spring Arena is for qualified players only, like the Winter Arena was. DreamHack has the advantage that it's far more appealing for a player to get a guaranteed spot from a big tournament rather than leaving it on a chance by going through a qualification tournament (top 8 from each region qualify as far as I know).
isnt there also going to be two MLG arenas for the spring season?? in that case i can see some players choosing DH because they can always just qualify to the MLG championship through the other one. (depending of how the spring season structure is)
On March 23 2012 16:59 RayBeans wrote: Is there a MLG event on the same weekend (21-22.04.12) as the Dreamhack?
Yeah. MLG Spring Arena is on Aplril 20-22 as DreamHack Open Stockholm is on 21-22. See MLG's post.
If DreamHack is going to go with the open signup, starting on March 27th, as they say, they will have some trouble getting all the big names in. However, I think they will invite players to join even before the 27th, and make the players accepting invites to promise they won't try to qualify for the MLG.
Remember that the MLG Spring Arena is for qualified players only, like the Winter Arena was. DreamHack has the advantage that it's far more appealing for a player to get a guaranteed spot from a big tournament rather than leaving it on a chance by going through a qualification tournament (top 8 from each region qualify as far as I know).
I find it hard to believe there will be more than a handful on non TL/EG/Other foreign team koreans at DH. Even at DH Winter with 60k+ dollar prize pool there was like...... 2 (DRG and Genius was the only ones?) there. With not even half the prize money, I dont see why Koreans would bother flying there, kinda like Assembly (which got two Koreans: Polt and Lucky).
Im hoping Im wrong, but I wouldnt expect more than 2-4 Koreans to show up apart from the normal ones (Hero, Puma, etc). This will likely be a mostly 80-90% European affair with the odd Korean/NA player to spice things up. Koreans havent really showed much interested in DH before and likely wont now either.
Also, dont forget that travel expenses are still large, MLG barely got any Koreans either until they (or GSL) started paying travel costs. DH doesnt do that, and as such, it's incredibly unlikely DH Stockholm will have anything near the MLG Arena in terms of competitive player pool. Its too bad, but Im just being realistic.
It's true that travel and accommodation costs covered, MLG seems really good, as long as you can qualify. It's not an easy task, and some might take the easier route and just go to DH which has no qualification tournaments. MLG surely will have at least 8 good players from the Korean qualifier, and the top 8 from NA from the NA qualifier. But with the EU qualifier, we might see the same thing that happened with Assembly, most of the top EU players weren't even in the qualifier since they already got a spot at Assembly.
All of the others are on foreign teams, read what I wrote.
Ill give you Taeja though, so make it 3, not 2. Though he also had his trip paid for him, so my point about Koreans barely ever going unless someone pays for them still stands.
On March 23 2012 16:59 RayBeans wrote: Is there a MLG event on the same weekend (21-22.04.12) as the Dreamhack?
Yeah. One of the two MLG Spring Arenas is on Aplril 20-22 as DreamHack Open Stockholm is on 21-22. See MLG's post. Second Spring Arena is on May 18-20.
If DreamHack is going to go with the open signup, starting on March 27th, as they say, they will have some trouble getting all the big names in. However, I think they will invite players to join even before the 27th, and make the players accepting invites to promise they won't try to qualify for the MLG.
Remember that the MLG Spring Arena is for qualified players only, like the Winter Arena was. DreamHack has the advantage that it's far more appealing for a player to get a guaranteed spot from a big tournament rather than leaving it on a chance by going through a qualification tournament (top 8 from each region qualify as far as I know).
MLG already said that qualification to the spring arena will be based on an open bracket, so that everyone can try out, and maybe some new hidden talent will be found.
128 player tournament... top4 gets paid, as if sc2 didnt have enough variance already also, why give all donations to ONE player instead of distributing it according to voting percentages for example? (and discard everything below 1% or w/e else is too small to make it practical).
I also think top 8 would be a more reasonable to pay, even if it wont be a huge share. They could take 5k SEK from each of the 4 top spots and give to 5-8th (making it 65/35/15/15/5/5/5/5 rather than 70/40/20/20). DH has somewhat of a history with top-heavy price pools :-/. I prefer the MLG/IPL distributions much more.
On March 23 2012 20:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: why give all donations to ONE player instead of distributing it according to voting percentages for example? (and discard everything below 1% or w/e else is too small to make it practical).
Thinking more about it, this is probably the most ridiculous Payout structure i've Seen so Far. So of 128 Players, 4 will get Prizemoney and One Fanfavorite gets the donations
On March 23 2012 21:39 DarKFoRcE wrote: Thinking more about it, this is probably the most ridiculous Payout structure i've Seen so Far. So of 128 Players, 4 will get Prizemoney and One Fanfavorite gets the donations
Considering the last event in Stockholm where 100000 SEK was given to MC and 2nd placed whitera got 0. With that in mind it's a step in the right direction...
On March 23 2012 12:43 claash wrote: The European Capital of esports is still cologne germany but the swedes again... after the first pictures of some other stadiums im looking forward to pictures of their queen and some swedish flags like last year *smile* oh man,americans or germans are so chilled in comparison
anyways.looking forward to the tournament.DH always delivers.
Don't even get me started on Polish patriotism. "smile"
On March 23 2012 21:39 DarKFoRcE wrote: Thinking more about it, this is probably the most ridiculous Payout structure i've Seen so Far. So of 128 Players, 4 will get Prizemoney and One Fanfavorite gets the donations
Considering the last event in Stockholm where 100000 SEK was given to MC and 2nd placed whitera got 0. With that in mind it's a step in the right direction...
Valencia was the same so this is hardly the most ridiculous payout structure in comparision.
Prize distribution at Dreamhack has "always" been quite horribly top heavy, not sure why to be fair as they know about the criticism and just because the invitationals where even worse doesn't make it excusable.
Paying out to atleast the top 8 or 16 should be possible in my opinion.
On March 23 2012 22:45 dignitasNewmaN wrote: Prize distribution at Dreamhack has "always" been quite horibbly top heavy, not sure why to be fair as they know about the criticism and just because the invitationals where even worse doesn't make it excusable.
Paying out to atleast the top 8 or 16 should be possible in my opinion.
Yeah absolutely.
The venue looks fantastic, I really do hope that it will be as awesome as the Dreamhack Winter Arena and that we have a huge crowd! Gogo Sweden!
So far I always regarded Cologne as Europe's capital of esport (EPS finals, IEM, headoffice of ESL etc.) but with this event Stockholm might become the number 1!
Well, the invitationals started at Ro8, and it makes sense to force some kind of effort to get into the money. Paying both 1st and 2nd there would possibly have made more sense than only winner, but I dont think you can start paying Ro4 or Ro8 when they start at Ro8. There has to be some effort involved.
But yea, with 128ppl I dont see why Top8 shouldnt be rewarded. There will be a lot of fluff in the bracket no doubt, so paying top 16 or 32 shouldnt be necessary only because its a big bracket, but players making it past two group stages and one Ro16 game should definitely be rewarded imo.
i dont understand... so i can pay money if want to support dreamhack, but dreamhack wont ever take my money but give it to some random person? so i will not support dreamhack? so why should i pay?
On March 24 2012 00:12 Heimatloser wrote: i dont understand... so i can pay money if want to support dreamhack, but dreamhack wont ever take my money but give it to some random person? so i will not support dreamhack? so why should i pay?
If by some random person you mean one of the players participating, then yes.
Or if there is actually a third / fourth place play off then take 2 500 SEK from Fourth and give it to Third. I do not understand this let's not play Third place matches mentality in some tourneys when you already have the players there and will already be paying them. The 3rd place match at IEM Kiev between Kas and Zenio was the best match of the tournament.
On March 23 2012 01:50 Eee wrote: Here's a picture of the venue where the event is going to be held at:
what the hell do you play in that globe?? BLITZBALL!?
Haha, I wish :D
On March 23 2012 20:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: 128 player tournament... top4 gets paid, as if sc2 didnt have enough variance already also, why give all donations to ONE player instead of distributing it according to voting percentages for example? (and discard everything below 1% or w/e else is too small to make it practical).
Agree with both points - I really dislike this kind of prize distribution and the fan award thing is pretty silly as well. If you can't raise enough money to pay at least the top 16 (preferably far more in this case) then I'm not sure how you can expect to fill 128 slots with paying participants.
Or if there is actually a third / fourth place play off then take 2 500 SEK from Fourth and give it to Third. I do not understand this let's not play Third place matches mentality in some tourneys when you already have the players there and will already be paying them. The 3rd place match at IEM Kiev between Kas and Zenio was the best match of the tournament.
Of course this is what they should do and I hope they can/want to change it.
Sadly people keep talking about how much the winner got and not about the total pricepool as they should. Dreamhack is leading the way in many areas but in this case they are sadly the worst.
Or if there is actually a third / fourth place play off then take 2 500 SEK from Fourth and give it to Third. I do not understand this let's not play Third place matches mentality in some tourneys when you already have the players there and will already be paying them. The 3rd place match at IEM Kiev between Kas and Zenio was the best match of the tournament.
Of course this is what they should do and I hope they can/want to change it.
Sadly people keep talking about how much the winner got and not about the total pricepool as they should. Dreamhack is leading the way in many areas but in this case they are sadly the worst.
Yeah, if you look at who finished 9-16th at DH summer and winter last year you have names such as: Sheth, Seiplo, Naama, Brat_OK and even a guy who I've never heard of called PredY. Just giving them something for getting to the RO16 seems reasonable to me as I want to see all these players making some money for it so more players stay in SC2 and can make a career out of it rather than ALL the money going to the same few people. It's why I like the set up of IEM so much.
I really hope they change the prize distribution. Top4 paid is ridiculous, and Flattr is pretty cool to use but dont give it all to one player based on votes, thats just stupid and pretty unreliable. Who donates money but doesn't know who it will go to anyway?
Pls change this and this tournament is going to rock!
Shouldn't the time for when you are starting to sell the tickets be 14 CEST and not CET since Europe went into Daylight saving time this wekeend? If you really mean 14 CET (which would be at 15 CEST) that might be good to point out so people don't get confused.
On March 24 2012 08:44 Mackem wrote: Holy shit I wish there was a cheap way to get from UK to Stockholm without flying
Why not by plane? Ryan Air offers very cheap tickets.
once you add on all the hidden fees, that you're usually flying to an airport nowhere near where you want to go etc it usually works out no cheaper than going with a standard airline
triple group stage is kind of ridiculous, 128 players really, really calls for swiss format
I wouldn't mind being able to give DH some money just for the prize-pool grow, but I don't want the audience to decide where it goes in the popularity contest. So why not give me something to pay for even if it's just not that practical or needed =)
I would feel much better about it than I do about paying MLG since it seems you guys enjoy it and aren't looking to make money in the same way. Maybe a bit too much though for good growth.
booked 5 tickets for me and some friends, gonna be up by the bar and drink beer, eat nice food and watch starcraft aaaaall weekend! I think it's gonna be really fun! First live tourmanet i attend :D
On March 29 2012 00:27 Olsson wrote: They still havn't annonced the players. Do they think people would buy football tickets if they didn't know what teams played?
it's not invite, and the player tickets went on sale at the same time as the spectator tickets, i'm sure the 128 signed up players will be signed up soon
On March 29 2012 00:44 sVnteen wrote: maybe you should also tell us the prize money in € and $ because gamers like me are too lazy to go search on google how much it is
The prize is paid in SEK, not USD or Euro. If they announce the prize in USD, the value of the dollar will most likely be something else after the tournament, so it wouldn't be accurate.
dreamhack summer and winter, highlight of my year and now it's gonna be even more epic with stockholm!! i also read somewhere that dreamhack and the globe signed a contract for many more years and that they have interest in expanding esports in sweden by alot. we'll see how that plays out.
Each player will have two blind vetos. The played maps and order will be random generated
Dreamhack Shakuras Plateau – Cross/Close-by-air spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack GSL Daybreak GSL version with the limited forward third base – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack GSL Metropolis . GSL version with Creep on islands – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack ESV Cloud Kingdom – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack ESV Ohana – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack ESV Vicious – All spawns enabled – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack ESV Frigid Pass – All spawn enabled – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack Antiga Shipyard – cross spawn only -gold bases exchanged to neutral – fixed lower right base so pylon power cant reach natural from third’s cliff – building blockers at mainbase ramp Dreamhack Metalopolis – gold bases exchanged to regular bases – cross and close-by-air enforced spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp
Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
Err. As much as I do not really get the inclusion of Metalopolis and Shakuras Plateau at this point, this is hugely better than MLG. MLG is really the only tournament that makes atrocious map decisions these days; IPL and GSL have quite good ones, this one is adventurous though a bit schizophrenic due to the aforementioned ones. Why do you scorn this when there is an elephant in the room?
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
I think the biggest issue (if not the only issue) with this map pool is the size of it.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
I think the biggest issue (if not the only issue) with this map pool is the size of it.
Have some balls.
Pick good maps.
Fuck vetoes.
Well with vetoes being a standard for Dreamhack, it is logical for the size to be what it is. The fight has to be picked with having double blind veto, not with the size of the map pool - the latter merely follows as a logical extension of the former.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
I think the biggest issue (if not the only issue) with this map pool is the size of it.
Have some balls.
Pick good maps.
Fuck vetoes.
9 maps is way to many. Five is pushing it. I would rather have 4 maps and have amazing, refined games, than 9 standard games.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
I think the biggest issue (if not the only issue) with this map pool is the size of it.
Have some balls.
Pick good maps.
Fuck vetoes.
Well with vetoes being a standard for Dreamhack, it is logical for the size to be what it is. The fight has to be picked with having double blind veto, not with the size of the map pool - the latter merely follows as a logical extension of the former.
I guess, but thats kind of a chicken vs egg argument... Does it really matter?
My point is I'd prefer a map pool of 5 set maps, reward the players who take your tournament seriously, and punish those who don't.
I can already see almost every single Korean out there (and probably a good deal of foreigners too) just blindly vetoing both Frigid Pass and Vicious simply because they haven't played on them and don't really want to bother learning them. Booorrrringggg.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
I'd really like to hear which of the two directions you are going with this.....
Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
Rather point out which maps are bad, why they are bad, and possibly which ones they should be replaced with. That might actually be worth something rather than "bad map pool please learn DreamHack!!!".
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
What's your argument against besides stuff said on SoTG? Mine is that most players don't do map specific strats and play every single map the same and that excuse is bullshit outside the GSL.
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
Because it's only like three guys giving their opinion and I've already heard like five other pro players with a completely different opinion.
On April 04 2012 02:48 Adebisi wrote:
I can already see almost every single Korean out there (and probably a good deal of foreigners too) just blindly vetoing both Frigid Pass and Vicious simply because they haven't played on them and don't really want to bother learning them. Booorrrringggg.
Especially Koreans should get increasingly familiar with both Frigid Pass and Vicious because they are currently leading the vote (by far) for being included in the upcoming season of the ESVTV Weekly, so if the Dreamhack guys decide to stick with those maps for a few events, I don't think there should be many issues.
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
More unique games? Every game looks the same nowadays, while mostly due to the metagame it probably isn't helped at all by the stagnating map pool.
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
Well, with the same argument, all tournys should use 3 set maps for all Bo3's, and then add 2 set maps for any possible Bo5's later in the tourny.
Now I can see players want lesser map, but as a viewer, watching Daybreak, Antiga and Cloud Kingdom over and over again gets pretty boring. Variation is good, and 9 maps are hardly getting to the point of a watered out map pool.
Actually, with pretty much every tourny save for GSL (where you know map and opponent at least a week in advance) you're likely gonna practise your everyday skill over map specific strats, considering how you many games against different players you play in short succession over a weekends.
Don't at all mind new maps, do mind outdated and imbalanced maps - at least when not every race gets a similar imba-map advantage.
There's a reason some maps go out of rotation, whether it's because of imbalance or just the maps having been overplayed. New, even unknown maps are fine, but meta + shakuras => graveyard. I would also much rather see Belshir than Ohana - Ohana may be the single most imbalanced map (in a single match-up). As of today, terrans have a 66% ~winrate versus zerg on the map. As a comparison, steppes of war has a 58 % winrate for terran.. ^^
*Just checked, and it seems metropolis is the Ohana equivalent for zergs, as it favors zergs just about as much vs terran. In that case, I have no problem having Ohana in the map-pool.
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
What's your argument against besides stuff said on SoTG? Mine is that most players don't do map specific strats and play every single map the same and that excuse is bullshit outside the GSL.
Its a chicken and the egg argument. Most players do not do specific strats for maps because the map pool is so large and they do not have time for refine them down. They have limited practice time and need to spend it in the most effective manner.
But if you want to see an argument not from SotG: I have never seen a best of 5 with 4 maps. I would love to see a full set that begins and ends with the same map, as long as they were solid maps. It would be more interesting that 9 maps and a ton of vetos.
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
What's your argument against besides stuff said on SoTG? Mine is that most players don't do map specific strats and play every single map the same and that excuse is bullshit outside the GSL.
Its a chicken and the egg argument. Most players do not do specific strats for maps because the map pool is so large and they do not have time for refine them down. They have limited practice time and need to spend it in the most effective manner.
But if you want to see an argument not from SotG: I have never seen a best of 5 with 4 maps. I would love to see a full set that begins and ends with the same map, as long as they were solid maps. It would be more interesting that 9 maps and a ton of vetos.
As someone that uses a 5 map pool, although the quality of games tend to go up a bit, but it's not revolutionary or anything.
Also that argument is EXACTLY what SoTG said, 4 map pool like BW, blah blah blah.
5 map pools I pretty much guarantee will end up being the wave of the future, but for the moment even if a tourney was to make a 4 map pool, you would still have players playing it like it was any other map outside the GSL.
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
What's your argument against besides stuff said on SoTG? Mine is that most players don't do map specific strats and play every single map the same and that excuse is bullshit outside the GSL.
Its a chicken and the egg argument. Most players do not do specific strats for maps because the map pool is so large and they do not have time for refine them down. They have limited practice time and need to spend it in the most effective manner.
But if you want to see an argument not from SotG: I have never seen a best of 5 with 4 maps. I would love to see a full set that begins and ends with the same map, as long as they were solid maps. It would be more interesting that 9 maps and a ton of vetos.
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
What's your argument against besides stuff said on SoTG? Mine is that most players don't do map specific strats and play every single map the same and that excuse is bullshit outside the GSL.
Its a chicken and the egg argument. Most players do not do specific strats for maps because the map pool is so large and they do not have time for refine them down. They have limited practice time and need to spend it in the most effective manner.
But if you want to see an argument not from SotG: I have never seen a best of 5 with 4 maps. I would love to see a full set that begins and ends with the same map, as long as they were solid maps. It would be more interesting that 9 maps and a ton of vetos.
As someone that uses a 5 map pool, although the quality of games tend to go up a bit, but it's not revolutionary or anything.
Also that argument is EXACTLY what SoTG said, 4 map pool like BW, blah blah blah.
5 map pools I pretty much guarantee will end up being the wave of the future, but for the moment even if a tourney was to make a 4 map pool, you would still have players playing it like it was any other map outside the GSL.
You know, putting blah blah blah at the end of statments you think are invalid does not make them invalid. Demanding people provide a different argument than the ones of SotG before their reasons to be good ones is silly. Map pool of 9 maps provides me with nothing that I cannot see on a stream of a practice session, which makes me not want to watch. I watch to see impressive, creative well thought out play, which I don't think a large map poll can provide. It think more maps waters down the quality of play.
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
What's your argument against besides stuff said on SoTG? Mine is that most players don't do map specific strats and play every single map the same and that excuse is bullshit outside the GSL.
Its a chicken and the egg argument. Most players do not do specific strats for maps because the map pool is so large and they do not have time for refine them down. They have limited practice time and need to spend it in the most effective manner.
But if you want to see an argument not from SotG: I have never seen a best of 5 with 4 maps. I would love to see a full set that begins and ends with the same map, as long as they were solid maps. It would be more interesting that 9 maps and a ton of vetos.
That argument was specifically on SotG
And I have never seen it in SC2, so I would like to. I don't think they talked about me on SotG.
On April 04 2012 04:24 Kreb wrote: Whats the problem with 9 maps lol? Ive never heard that one before, people find new stuff to complain about all the time. If there were 20 awesome maps out there, I certainly wouldnt mind having a tourny use all 20.
The problem is that the players must train their strategies on them and if there are too many, you can't train optimally
I swear I would die to hear a map discussion that is not just people repeating what was said on SoTG........
Why when their arguments are make so much sense and no one has provided a reason for 9 maps in a single event?
What's your argument against besides stuff said on SoTG? Mine is that most players don't do map specific strats and play every single map the same and that excuse is bullshit outside the GSL.
Its a chicken and the egg argument. Most players do not do specific strats for maps because the map pool is so large and they do not have time for refine them down. They have limited practice time and need to spend it in the most effective manner.
But if you want to see an argument not from SotG: I have never seen a best of 5 with 4 maps. I would love to see a full set that begins and ends with the same map, as long as they were solid maps. It would be more interesting that 9 maps and a ton of vetos.
As someone that uses a 5 map pool, although the quality of games tend to go up a bit, but it's not revolutionary or anything.
Also that argument is EXACTLY what SoTG said, 4 map pool like BW, blah blah blah.
5 map pools I pretty much guarantee will end up being the wave of the future, but for the moment even if a tourney was to make a 4 map pool, you would still have players playing it like it was any other map outside the GSL.
You know, putting blah blah blah at the end of statments you think are invalid does not make them invalid. Demanding people provide a different argument than the ones of SotG before their reasons to be good ones is silly. Map pool of 9 maps provides me with nothing that I cannot see on a stream of a practice session, which makes me not want to watch. I watch to see impressive, creative well thought out play, which I don't think a large map poll can provide. It think more maps waters down the quality of play.
Whatever man, every tournament besides the KW has a map pool of over 7 maps, which means you don't enjoy watching any tournaments.
I think 5 map pools are better then 9 but I can provide my own arguments and reasoning why without having to repeat SoTG, which apparently no one in this thread can seem to do.
I'm all for arguing against bigger pools, but use original reasoning please, repeating SoTG just makes you a sheep following the herd.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament on TPW TV? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.
Also. Please note that Diamond didn´t contact DH. I, as admin contacted him about a few maps i was interested i and wanted them to be "tournament-fixed" with depots, spacesharks and such. And we worked from there. Please also note that this is a open tournament, we need a map-pool that has something for everyone, some old, some new and something very new.
We also wanted to test something new out, lets see how it roll. If its no goodwe change. We will of course monitor everything closely and see what hit homes.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
On April 04 2012 02:30 prodiG wrote: [quote] What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
On April 04 2012 05:55 DYEAlabaster wrote: [quote]
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
The Korean Weekly is for you then.
Which I try to keep up to date on. It's a well run tournament with sufficiently capable casters (not within my taste, but to each his own) that does what it sets out to do (test and balance ESV maps). IMHO the KR weekly should have only ESV maps, which is a direction that I believe you are headed in anyway.
On April 04 2012 02:30 prodiG wrote: [quote] What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
I don't know if there is a word for it (but I'm pretty sure there is), but it's not a monopoly there is 2 teams who have maps in every tournament and etc, ESV and Crux. Just only ESV makes any effort at all of brand recognition unlike Crux so that's why you don't see "Crux Daybreak" etc. So we might have a brand name monopoly on maps, but that's again a fualt of the other mapmaking teams.
Also NASL uses like almost all TPW maps, IPL uses Darkenss Falls, it's not like TPW has 0 representation. Just they have no overall manager that is not a mapmaker to handle things like tournament relations so they are spreading slower.
Every single one of the "problems" (besides map overlapping) is something that other teams have failed to do that ESV has. And just like any other business on the planet, if you are not offering a complete and competitive product, you will get left in the dust. It's the reason I run the ESV Mapmaking Team like a business despite it never making money (and in fact losing me thousands upon thousands of $ across the past 2 years), I know that you have to maintain that mentality to be the best. Right now ESV I think is the best mapmaking team out there, and we offer both a competitive product (also which TPW delivers) that is complete (Korean pro testing, KW to test the maps, etc, which TPW does NOT offer).
In short, like every other part of competitive SC2 (streaming, LAN's, casting, etc) the game has changed, and those that do not change their game to go along with this will slowly disappear.
Also please don't think I am mad or hate you or anything, I just love debating maps and your first line seemed a bit questionable. I appreciate the discussion.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.
Also. Please note that Diamond didn´t contact DH. I, as admin contacted him about a few maps i was interested i and wanted them to be "tournament-fixed" with depots, spacesharks and such. And we worked from there. Please also note that this is a open tournament, we need a map-pool that has something for everyone, some old, some new and something very new.
We also wanted to test something new out, lets see how it roll. If its no goodwe change. We will of course monitor everything closely and see what hit homes.
I was never under the assumption that Diamond did (and even if he did, all the more power for him doing so). However, I simply disagree with the choices you made for this tournament. An open tournament is all well and good, and having a diverse map pool is good as well, but what you have created is an artificially inflated map pool with a severe overlap in functionality/design of maps. If you want to have 7 maps, some old, some new, some very new, all different. However, you have perhaps enough "stylistically different" maps to fill out a maximum six maps, and yet you have nine.
I feel that this is a diservice to all participants, as pros will tend to veto the old (bad) maps, and up-and-commers will probably veto the new (esv) maps, leaving a weird middle-ground of the same 5 maps within the open tournament.
In the tournament proper (or in later stages), most players will feel compelled to burn vetoes on old maps, leaving a risk to play either a new map that they have no experience with, or an old map that they hate.
On April 04 2012 04:51 m0ck wrote: I would also much rather see Belshir than Ohana - Ohana may be the single most imbalanced map (in a single match-up). As of today, terrans have a 66% ~winrate versus zerg on the map. As a comparison, steppes of war has a 58 % winrate for terran.. ^^
*Just checked, and it seems metropolis is the Ohana equivalent for zergs, as it favors zergs just about as much vs terran. In that case, I have no problem having Ohana in the map-pool.
i can tell you on belshir P only got 44% winrate overall (i got loads of master-GM replays to draw those stats on)
Wow, is it just me or did this discussion take a turn for the weirder for anyone else?
I am not a map expert. I am not even an expert SC2 player or analyst. However, there has been since the launch of the game a popular dissatisfaction with the state of maps, proliferated in just about every avenue available. Not only about balance, but also about aesthetics, about diversity and about diversity in most aspects of the game.
Right now we see an interesting turn of events. Blizzard is starting to incorporate maps made outside of the company into the ladder. More and more tournament organizers are looking outside of what has been staple maps for new options.
Finding a tight map pool for any tournament is a process that will inevitably take time. In the meantime, it is a given that we will see tournaments with map choices that cannot, by necessity, please everyone. With DreamHack, they have their own views on how their maps, systematically, should work. They are clearly alright with a big map pool, as mentioned in previous posts, their double blind veto process necessitates a bigger map pool.
Without any kind of governance overseeing tournaments, the only real method of finding what constitutes good maps between a plethora of different organizations is to collect data. Introducing new maps into the tournament scene will always lead to a situation where some or perhaps even most players will veto maps that are new; there is nothing that can be done about that outside of an organizer holding a tournament featuring exclusively new or untested maps. Of course the mainstream tournaments will be much more likely to do so than a mapmaker, fx ESV. But as long as there is no governance, we can only move towards more stable maps by either continuing to allow new maps to become part of tournaments piecemeal and analyzing the results afterwards or by stifling the evolution of maps altogether by only using what has been established.
It is not a pretty process, but blasting tournaments for actually taking the chance on new maps seems both shortsighted and counterproductive if what we are aiming for is to reach a state where we can have the best of both worlds; both continuing development of new maps and a stable core of tournament maps. I do not think that many people will agree that we have even begun to see the pinnacle of SC2 maps at present.
Finally, it is fairly abhorrent to see a mapmaker community lambasted for actually doing well and getting somewhere in their work. I have no ties with any of them, but I wish them all the best of luck and will be happy to see them all succeed. I do not however expect to see any of them do so unless they strive to do everything they can to become a premier source of quality maps; an integral part of this of course being able to deliver quantifiable data and evidence.
Good on DreamHack for taking the chance on new maps. They are clearly open to new ideas. If other mapmakers than ESV want to contribute, they clearly should be in contact with the organizers. They are not hard to find. If they then find out that somehow ESV have exclusivity clauses on their maps and are barring other communities or organizations from having their maps used, then can we start discussing monopolies.
On April 04 2012 05:55 DYEAlabaster wrote: [quote]
Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
I don't know if there is a word for it (but I'm pretty sure there is), but it's not a monopoly there is 2 teams who have maps in every tournament and etc, ESV and Crux. Just only ESV makes any effort at all of brand recognition unlike Crux so that's why you don't see "Crux Daybreak" etc. So we might have a brand name monopoly on maps, but that's again a fualt of the other mapmaking teams.
Also NASL uses like almost all TPW maps, IPL uses Darkenss Falls, it's not like TPW has 0 representation. Just they have no overall manager that is not a mapmaker to handle things like tournament relations so they are spreading slower.
Every single one of the "problems" (besides map overlapping) is something that other teams have failed to do that ESV has. And just like any other business on the planet, if you are not offering a complete and competitive product, you will get left in the dust. It's the reason I run the ESV Mapmaking Team like a business despite it never making money (and in fact losing me thousands upon thousands of $ across the past 2 years), I know that you have to maintain that mentality to be the best. Right now ESV I think is the best mapmaking team out there, and we offer both a competitive product (also which TPW delivers) that is complete (Korean pro testing, KW to test the maps, etc, which TPW does NOT offer).
In short, like every other part of competitive SC2 (streaming, LAN's, casting, etc) the game has changed, and those that do not change their game to go along with this will slowly disappear.
Also please don't think I am mad or hate you or anything, I just love debating maps and your first line seemed a bit questionable. I appreciate the discussion.
I feel that Crux has dominance because they work directly with GSL, which is free branding, because the best games in the world are played on their fields. I feel that ESV is the only company that has really "made themselves" so to speak.
I think we essentially agree- that if want to see branding diversity in map pools, other mappers have to step up their game in order to achieve the same success that you (and ESV) have. Until then, you will probably still have a majority control over the 'foreign' mapping scene.
That being said, whoever has the majority share in maps at any tournament is a waypoint for me, as long as the maps being represented are good.
There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.
Agree with the overlapping choices however.
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
I don't know if there is a word for it (but I'm pretty sure there is), but it's not a monopoly there is 2 teams who have maps in every tournament and etc, ESV and Crux. Just only ESV makes any effort at all of brand recognition unlike Crux so that's why you don't see "Crux Daybreak" etc. So we might have a brand name monopoly on maps, but that's again a fualt of the other mapmaking teams.
Also NASL uses like almost all TPW maps, IPL uses Darkenss Falls, it's not like TPW has 0 representation. Just they have no overall manager that is not a mapmaker to handle things like tournament relations so they are spreading slower.
Every single one of the "problems" (besides map overlapping) is something that other teams have failed to do that ESV has. And just like any other business on the planet, if you are not offering a complete and competitive product, you will get left in the dust. It's the reason I run the ESV Mapmaking Team like a business despite it never making money (and in fact losing me thousands upon thousands of $ across the past 2 years), I know that you have to maintain that mentality to be the best. Right now ESV I think is the best mapmaking team out there, and we offer both a competitive product (also which TPW delivers) that is complete (Korean pro testing, KW to test the maps, etc, which TPW does NOT offer).
In short, like every other part of competitive SC2 (streaming, LAN's, casting, etc) the game has changed, and those that do not change their game to go along with this will slowly disappear.
Also please don't think I am mad or hate you or anything, I just love debating maps and your first line seemed a bit questionable. I appreciate the discussion.
I feel that Crux has dominance because they work directly with GSL, which is free branding, because the best games in the world are played on their fields. I feel that ESV is the only company that has really "made themselves" so to speak.
I think we essentially agree- that if want to see branding diversity in map pools, other mappers have to step up their game in order to achieve the same success that you (and ESV) have. Until then, you will probably still have a majority control over the 'foreign' mapping scene.
That being said, whoever has the majority share in maps at any tournament is a waypoint for me, as long as the maps being represented are good.
Koreans have dominated the map scene through the entire starcraft original/BW scene and it wasn't a problem for you then I assume. The foreign map scene is now finally able to shed some light and now it's a problem for you because a long-time foreign map team is getting clutch hits while others aren't?
On April 04 2012 06:47 Porcelina wrote: If they then find out that somehow ESV have exclusivity clauses on their maps and are barring other communities or organizations from having their maps used, then can we start discussing monopolies.
Just want to squash this before it even gets close, we not only don't own our maps (Blizzard does, thanks EULA!) but we don't even do formal contracts to use them, meaning there is no exclusivity clause and I would never try and do one, it's horribly counter productive to anyone.
On April 04 2012 06:47 Porcelina wrote: I do not think that many people will agree that we have even begun to see the pinnacle of SC2 maps at present.
I just want to highlight this. As good as mappers like LS, Winpark, Superouman, Ragoo, and others may be, we have seen maybe at best .01% of the potential of mapping. There is so much unexplored.
On April 04 2012 06:03 DYEAlabaster wrote: [quote]
Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.
Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.
Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....
Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.
I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.
ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.
Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.
This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.
Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.
Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.
I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.
Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.
There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.
I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).
I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.
I don't know if there is a word for it (but I'm pretty sure there is), but it's not a monopoly there is 2 teams who have maps in every tournament and etc, ESV and Crux. Just only ESV makes any effort at all of brand recognition unlike Crux so that's why you don't see "Crux Daybreak" etc. So we might have a brand name monopoly on maps, but that's again a fualt of the other mapmaking teams.
Also NASL uses like almost all TPW maps, IPL uses Darkenss Falls, it's not like TPW has 0 representation. Just they have no overall manager that is not a mapmaker to handle things like tournament relations so they are spreading slower.
Every single one of the "problems" (besides map overlapping) is something that other teams have failed to do that ESV has. And just like any other business on the planet, if you are not offering a complete and competitive product, you will get left in the dust. It's the reason I run the ESV Mapmaking Team like a business despite it never making money (and in fact losing me thousands upon thousands of $ across the past 2 years), I know that you have to maintain that mentality to be the best. Right now ESV I think is the best mapmaking team out there, and we offer both a competitive product (also which TPW delivers) that is complete (Korean pro testing, KW to test the maps, etc, which TPW does NOT offer).
In short, like every other part of competitive SC2 (streaming, LAN's, casting, etc) the game has changed, and those that do not change their game to go along with this will slowly disappear.
Also please don't think I am mad or hate you or anything, I just love debating maps and your first line seemed a bit questionable. I appreciate the discussion.
I feel that Crux has dominance because they work directly with GSL, which is free branding, because the best games in the world are played on their fields. I feel that ESV is the only company that has really "made themselves" so to speak.
I think we essentially agree- that if want to see branding diversity in map pools, other mappers have to step up their game in order to achieve the same success that you (and ESV) have. Until then, you will probably still have a majority control over the 'foreign' mapping scene.
That being said, whoever has the majority share in maps at any tournament is a waypoint for me, as long as the maps being represented are good.
Koreans have dominated the map scene through the entire starcraft original/BW scene and it wasn't a problem for you then I assume. The foreign map scene is now finally able to shed some light and now it's a problem for you because a long-time foreign map team is getting clutch hits while others aren't?
I actually hated that Koreans had a dominance in (all of) BW. Almost all players, mappers, etc. hailed from korea. This was true for players, but doubly so for mappers. I hated that aspect of BW. I'm glad that 'foregin' mapping is gaining traction, I'd just like to see it at the end-stage.
You'll notice about me- I'm very socialistic in my views
Regarding the map pool size argument that just went on, while Diamond does make some good points about how players won't immediately start providing map-specific strategies right away in a tournament with a smaller map pool, I do feel like until tournaments start shedding the map pool sizes down to a reasonable 4/5, we won't ever see it happen outside of a few edge cases.
It's difficult for pro players to actually begin that process until they're in an environment that allows it to happen, IMO. When they don't have to spend all their time simply learning the basic concepts of 7-9 different maps, they can start to put the time saved into really learning those fewer maps more intimately. We won't see the fruits of that labour immediately, but I think it would come eventually.
In that regard, I'm not the biggest fan of Dreamhack's map pool -- on top of the inclusion of both Shakuras Plateau and Metalopolis... wtf are those maps doing in there?
Could you like take this map discussion elsewhere? Thats some serious thread hijacking there.
For me as a spectator I love to see new maps and designs. Keeping to old ones or lowering numbers in a map pool reduces the viewing experience by a good bit. And I expect anyone who call themself a progamer to be able to perform on any map given to them these days.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
Why would you say "open your eyes", and then proceed not to tell us what we are supposed to be seeing...
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
Why would you say "open your eyes", and then proceed not to tell us what we are supposed to be seeing...
What confuses me the most is I don't know what he's referring to:
1) Still having old maps in the pool
or
2) Having 2 new maps that he doesn't want to learn? I mean, pros should know that new maps are going to come around, and they'll have to learn them eventually.
On April 04 2012 07:57 Xeris wrote: Nothing wrong with custom maps... they're great. I also think people put way too much emphasis / fuss on naming maps.
You mean like the actual names or the ESV/MLG/etc or something else?
I'll sum up my opinions on the map pool (as a mapmaker for ESV)- and this is being entirely honest.
Dreamhack is being really risky by picking new maps, and I think it will pay off. Even if there are some minor imbalances, as there probably will be (nothing can be determined yet, like Ohana, because the sample size is too small), the maps could lead to new gameplay innovation. It also really helps mapmakers learn what works and what doesn't, plus it gives us lots of balance statistics. Honestly it is so difficult to make balanced maps without experimenting and testing like Dreamhack is doing. So if you ask me, it is a good thing that Dreamhack is picking new maps.
Did Dreamhack pick the right maps? Imo ESV has some other maps available that are better. Frigid Pass and Vicious are both highly experimental and could end badly. Vicious, in particular, has either a very open third or a very far third depending on where you spawn; PvZ especially is likely to be the most affected match up. There are a few other maps that are solid from mapmaking teams, but as Diamond said, they don't conduct themselves as a business and deliver a full product. Dreamhack might have been able to pick better maps (although I can't be 100% certain since I don't know what criteria they judged the maps on, what they looked at, etc.) but it was a good move no matter what.
On April 04 2012 06:47 Porcelina wrote: Good on DreamHack for taking the chance on new maps. They are clearly open to new ideas. If other mapmakers than ESV want to contribute, they clearly should be in contact with the organizers. They are not hard to find. If they then find out that somehow ESV have exclusivity clauses on their maps and are barring other communities or organizations from having their maps used, then can we start discussing monopolies.
I'd just like to point out that i did in fact try to contact dreamhack in february when we last updated our map pool, but never got any reply! I might have wrote to the wrong person, I don't know. I contacted pretty much all of the big tournaments, but mostly got no reply or have been told they don't want to use unknown/untested maps, despite them being successfull in MotM and other mapmaking competitions. Only very few were interested. Like diamond has suggested, the best way would be to host our own tournament. But we don't have anyone like diamond in our team willing to put that much time, money and effort into organizing tournaments, casting, sponsors, etc. Unless we do as much, we can't really complain about it. If any tournament organizers want to work with TPW they are welcome to contact me, otherwise, i don't see it happening at the moment. :D
w00t, go go dreamhack! Congrats ESV on getting your maps in the pool. I do kind of wish they'd get rid of Shakuras since Frigid shares kind of the same feel. Same could be said for Antiga with Vicious!
Either way, looking forward to this.
Also, about trying to contact tournament officials, it's funny because it's extremely hard to actually get a hold of major tournament officials to try your map out. Yet even when they do pick up your map, trying to send them new versions so they will update the map is just as much of a nightmare. At least that is my experience with IPL.....
I think they should have used existing maps when possible instead of making new maps with the prefix 'Dreamhack'. For example Dreamhack Shakuras Plateau (cross/close-by-air spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp) is the same as ESL Shakuras Plateu. The new name just adds confusion for the players since it's yet another Shakuras to remember.
On April 04 2012 21:32 Azhrak wrote: I think they should have used existing maps when possible instead of making new maps with the prefix 'Dreamhack'. For example Dreamhack Shakuras Plateau (cross/close-by-air spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp) is the same as ESL Shakuras Plateu. The new name just adds confusion for the players since it's yet another Shakuras to remember.
Isn't it easier, so you can just search for "Dreamhack" and immediately get all the maps available, instead of remembering whether they use the ESL, GSL, MLG, or whatever version there is.
On April 04 2012 21:32 Azhrak wrote: I think they should have used existing maps when possible instead of making new maps with the prefix 'Dreamhack'. For example Dreamhack Shakuras Plateau (cross/close-by-air spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp) is the same as ESL Shakuras Plateu. The new name just adds confusion for the players since it's yet another Shakuras to remember.
Isn't it easier, so you can just search for "Dreamhack" and immediately get all the maps available, instead of remembering whether they use the ESL, GSL, MLG, or whatever version there is.
Yeah, but the problem is that there are always small differences between all the maps. For example there are about 10 different versions of Terminus but also smaller differences like cross only, building blockers etc. on other maps make it really really confusing for tournament players.
On April 04 2012 21:32 Azhrak wrote: I think they should have used existing maps when possible instead of making new maps with the prefix 'Dreamhack'. For example Dreamhack Shakuras Plateau (cross/close-by-air spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp) is the same as ESL Shakuras Plateu. The new name just adds confusion for the players since it's yet another Shakuras to remember.
Isn't it easier, so you can just search for "Dreamhack" and immediately get all the maps available, instead of remembering whether they use the ESL, GSL, MLG, or whatever version there is.
Yeah, but the problem is that there are always small differences between all the maps. For example there are about 10 different versions of Terminus but also smaller differences like cross only, building blockers etc. on other maps make it really really confusing for tournament players.
I think I saw a post mentioning that the changes made are stated in the map descriptions, so players can just read up and shouldn't get confused.
On April 04 2012 21:32 Azhrak wrote: I think they should have used existing maps when possible instead of making new maps with the prefix 'Dreamhack'. For example Dreamhack Shakuras Plateau (cross/close-by-air spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp) is the same as ESL Shakuras Plateu. The new name just adds confusion for the players since it's yet another Shakuras to remember.
Isn't it easier, so you can just search for "Dreamhack" and immediately get all the maps available, instead of remembering whether they use the ESL, GSL, MLG, or whatever version there is.
Yeah, but the problem is that there are always small differences between all the maps. For example there are about 10 different versions of Terminus but also smaller differences like cross only, building blockers etc. on other maps make it really really confusing for tournament players.
I think I saw a post mentioning that the changes made are stated in the map descriptions, so players can just read up and shouldn't get confused.
yes everything is in the battle.net description aswell under the maps
On April 04 2012 21:32 Azhrak wrote: I think they should have used existing maps when possible instead of making new maps with the prefix 'Dreamhack'. For example Dreamhack Shakuras Plateau (cross/close-by-air spawns – building blockers at mainbase ramp) is the same as ESL Shakuras Plateu. The new name just adds confusion for the players since it's yet another Shakuras to remember.
Isn't it easier, so you can just search for "Dreamhack" and immediately get all the maps available, instead of remembering whether they use the ESL, GSL, MLG, or whatever version there is.
Yeah, but the problem is that there are always small differences between all the maps. For example there are about 10 different versions of Terminus but also smaller differences like cross only, building blockers etc. on other maps make it really really confusing for tournament players.
I think I saw a post mentioning that the changes made are stated in the map descriptions, so players can just read up and shouldn't get confused.
That's good and should always be so. However, players sometimes fail to read the descriptions for whatever reason (like at last IEM some of the players didn't know ESL Entombed Valley was cross only). I think having fewer maps (i.e only one name for each version) is a more fail-safe option.
On April 05 2012 00:25 Azuroz wrote: So naniwa was invited to the MLG arena and is already confirmed for dreamhack, quite interesting as the mlg arena was only 8 players, now it's 7
They will probably invite someone that placed 9th/12th, like MC, aLive, Socke or JYP.
On April 05 2012 00:25 Azuroz wrote: So naniwa was invited to the MLG arena and is already confirmed for dreamhack, quite interesting as the mlg arena was only 8 players, now it's 7
They will probably invite someone that placed 9th/12th, like MC, aLive, Socke or JYP.
Well thats means Huk against the Koreans i guess...
On April 06 2012 01:36 mRandy wrote: Dont know if it has been posted but OP should update with the *first players". Made a little list of some of the big names.
Elfi Grubby Hero Hyun Idra Lalush Mana Merz Morrow Naama Naniwa Nerchio Polt Ret Sase Slivko Sjow Thorzain TLO
updated with some names i didnt catch. mybe missed some anyway but meh!
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
Why would you say "open your eyes", and then proceed not to tell us what we are supposed to be seeing...
What confuses me the most is I don't know what he's referring to:
1) Still having old maps in the pool
or
2) Having 2 new maps that he doesn't want to learn? I mean, pros should know that new maps are going to come around, and they'll have to learn them eventually.
Still hasnt told us. Thank you for being so helpful...
On April 06 2012 01:36 mRandy wrote: Dont know if it has been posted but OP should update with the *First players". Made a little list of some of the big names.
Is there a schedule yet? I need to know when the games start, not when it opens, which is the only information i could find. We want to do a BarCraft, so the a schedule would be quite nice to have
On April 06 2012 01:36 mRandy wrote: Dont know if it has been posted but OP should update with the *First players". Made a little list of some of the big names.
I would like to see snute and some folks from Ukraine and some Russians and some of the guys from team Millennium and the polish team house players can join too and some of the german pro players.
Seriously guys, can you please read things before you post things like "why isn't that player or that player going?" The names of the players that is going are coming from a thread called "FIRST players announced" meaning, this is not all the players that is going to attend. More players are going to be released!
On April 06 2012 01:36 mRandy wrote: Dont know if it has been posted but OP should update with the *First players". Made a little list of some of the big names.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.
Also. Please note that Diamond didn´t contact DH. I, as admin contacted him about a few maps i was interested i and wanted them to be "tournament-fixed" with depots, spacesharks and such. And we worked from there. Please also note that this is a open tournament, we need a map-pool that has something for everyone, some old, some new and something very new.
We also wanted to test something new out, lets see how it roll. If its no goodwe change. We will of course monitor everything closely and see what hit homes.
You added spacesharks? WOW NICE THEN EVERY ISSUE IS SOLVED :D Maybe next time you should ask some pros before picking maps. There is a reason why IPL and GSL didn't add 4 player maps with all spawns. Since you cleary don't understand why I can explain it for you. Being able to scout or not is a big point in the game. With 4 player maps all spawns you have to scout very early to be 100% sure to get any intel but if you do you sacrafice alot of eco which turns into a very luckbased game. Very new things would be maps GSL and IPL played already. These maps have already been played in online tournaments before being played in IPL Main even and GSL. Fans would most likely recognize them a little bit at least. I don't understand why you need something 'very new'. Players are obviously not happy to play on luckbased maps they never seen before. Fans probably don't enjoy watching games on new maps they never ever seen before and never ever will play. At least I don't. The only satisfaction I can see is for the admin who got to pick the map so he got to feel happy he did something. Just my point, hope it will be a tournament which nice admins Once again, thanks for spacesharks, at least the comment put a big smile on my face ^___________^
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.
Also. Please note that Diamond didn´t contact DH. I, as admin contacted him about a few maps i was interested i and wanted them to be "tournament-fixed" with depots, spacesharks and such. And we worked from there. Please also note that this is a open tournament, we need a map-pool that has something for everyone, some old, some new and something very new.
We also wanted to test something new out, lets see how it roll. If its no goodwe change. We will of course monitor everything closely and see what hit homes.
You added spacesharks? WOW NICE THEN EVERY ISSUE IS SOLVED :D Maybe next time you should ask some pros before picking maps. There is a reason why IPL and GSL didn't add 4 player maps with all spawns. Since you cleary don't understand why I can explain it for you. Being able to scout or not is a big point in the game. With 4 player maps all spawns you have to scout very early to be 100% sure to get any intel but if you do you sacrafice alot of eco which turns into a very luckbased game. Very new things would be maps GSL and IPL played already. These maps have already been played in online tournaments before being played in IPL Main even and GSL. Fans would most likely recognize them a little bit at least. I don't understand why you need something 'very new'. Players are obviously not happy to play on luckbased maps they never seen before. Fans probably don't enjoy watching games on new maps they never ever seen before and never ever will play. At least I don't. The only satisfaction I can see is for the admin who got to pick the map so he got to feel happy he did something. Just my point, hope it will be a tournament which nice admins Once again, thanks for spacesharks, at least the comment put a big smile on my face ^___________^
Isn't Entombed Valley a 4 player map with all spawns enabled? 4 Player maps worked pretty well so far in tournaments both in SC2 and in Broodwar, so it just sounds like a matter of personal preference to me.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.
Also. Please note that Diamond didn´t contact DH. I, as admin contacted him about a few maps i was interested i and wanted them to be "tournament-fixed" with depots, spacesharks and such. And we worked from there. Please also note that this is a open tournament, we need a map-pool that has something for everyone, some old, some new and something very new.
We also wanted to test something new out, lets see how it roll. If its no goodwe change. We will of course monitor everything closely and see what hit homes.
You added spacesharks? WOW NICE THEN EVERY ISSUE IS SOLVED :D Maybe next time you should ask some pros before picking maps. There is a reason why IPL and GSL didn't add 4 player maps with all spawns. Since you cleary don't understand why I can explain it for you. Being able to scout or not is a big point in the game. With 4 player maps all spawns you have to scout very early to be 100% sure to get any intel but if you do you sacrafice alot of eco which turns into a very luckbased game. Very new things would be maps GSL and IPL played already. These maps have already been played in online tournaments before being played in IPL Main even and GSL. Fans would most likely recognize them a little bit at least. I don't understand why you need something 'very new'. Players are obviously not happy to play on luckbased maps they never seen before. Fans probably don't enjoy watching games on new maps they never ever seen before and never ever will play. At least I don't. The only satisfaction I can see is for the admin who got to pick the map so he got to feel happy he did something. Just my point, hope it will be a tournament which nice admins Once again, thanks for spacesharks, at least the comment put a big smile on my face ^___________^
Isn't Entombed Valley a 4 player map with all spawns enabled? 4 Player maps worked pretty well so far in tournaments both in SC2 and in Broodwar, so it just sounds like a matter of personal preference to me.
I think It's forced cross in GSL, not sure though.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.
Also. Please note that Diamond didn´t contact DH. I, as admin contacted him about a few maps i was interested i and wanted them to be "tournament-fixed" with depots, spacesharks and such. And we worked from there. Please also note that this is a open tournament, we need a map-pool that has something for everyone, some old, some new and something very new.
We also wanted to test something new out, lets see how it roll. If its no goodwe change. We will of course monitor everything closely and see what hit homes.
You added spacesharks? WOW NICE THEN EVERY ISSUE IS SOLVED :D Maybe next time you should ask some pros before picking maps. There is a reason why IPL and GSL didn't add 4 player maps with all spawns. Since you cleary don't understand why I can explain it for you. Being able to scout or not is a big point in the game. With 4 player maps all spawns you have to scout very early to be 100% sure to get any intel but if you do you sacrafice alot of eco which turns into a very luckbased game. Very new things would be maps GSL and IPL played already. These maps have already been played in online tournaments before being played in IPL Main even and GSL. Fans would most likely recognize them a little bit at least. I don't understand why you need something 'very new'. Players are obviously not happy to play on luckbased maps they never seen before. Fans probably don't enjoy watching games on new maps they never ever seen before and never ever will play. At least I don't. The only satisfaction I can see is for the admin who got to pick the map so he got to feel happy he did something. Just my point, hope it will be a tournament which nice admins Once again, thanks for spacesharks, at least the comment put a big smile on my face ^___________^
Isn't Entombed Valley a 4 player map with all spawns enabled? 4 Player maps worked pretty well so far in tournaments both in SC2 and in Broodwar, so it just sounds like a matter of personal preference to me.
I think It's forced cross in GSL, not sure though.
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.
Also. Please note that Diamond didn´t contact DH. I, as admin contacted him about a few maps i was interested i and wanted them to be "tournament-fixed" with depots, spacesharks and such. And we worked from there. Please also note that this is a open tournament, we need a map-pool that has something for everyone, some old, some new and something very new.
We also wanted to test something new out, lets see how it roll. If its no goodwe change. We will of course monitor everything closely and see what hit homes.
You added spacesharks? WOW NICE THEN EVERY ISSUE IS SOLVED :D Maybe next time you should ask some pros before picking maps. There is a reason why IPL and GSL didn't add 4 player maps with all spawns. Since you cleary don't understand why I can explain it for you. Being able to scout or not is a big point in the game. With 4 player maps all spawns you have to scout very early to be 100% sure to get any intel but if you do you sacrafice alot of eco which turns into a very luckbased game. Very new things would be maps GSL and IPL played already. These maps have already been played in online tournaments before being played in IPL Main even and GSL. Fans would most likely recognize them a little bit at least. I don't understand why you need something 'very new'. Players are obviously not happy to play on luckbased maps they never seen before. Fans probably don't enjoy watching games on new maps they never ever seen before and never ever will play. At least I don't. The only satisfaction I can see is for the admin who got to pick the map so he got to feel happy he did something. Just my point, hope it will be a tournament which nice admins Once again, thanks for spacesharks, at least the comment put a big smile on my face ^___________^
Isn't Entombed Valley a 4 player map with all spawns enabled? 4 Player maps worked pretty well so far in tournaments both in SC2 and in Broodwar, so it just sounds like a matter of personal preference to me.
I think It's forced cross in GSL, not sure though.
It's not
Dunno about the GSL version, but ESL Entombed Valley is definitly forced cross.
On April 13 2012 22:11 hugman wrote: How will this tournament be played? Are there online stages? 128 players seems like too much for a two day event.
Didn't IPL4 just finish a 128 player double elim open bracket down to 4 players in a single day? I believe so!
Albeit it took 14.5 hours to complete but it happened! I hope there won't be too much downtime between matches. In the past the casters were able to jump into hot matches mid-series. and hopefully with a dedicated emcee/host there will be more player interviews!
Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.
Also. Please note that Diamond didn´t contact DH. I, as admin contacted him about a few maps i was interested i and wanted them to be "tournament-fixed" with depots, spacesharks and such. And we worked from there. Please also note that this is a open tournament, we need a map-pool that has something for everyone, some old, some new and something very new.
We also wanted to test something new out, lets see how it roll. If its no goodwe change. We will of course monitor everything closely and see what hit homes.
You added spacesharks? WOW NICE THEN EVERY ISSUE IS SOLVED :D Maybe next time you should ask some pros before picking maps. There is a reason why IPL and GSL didn't add 4 player maps with all spawns. Since you cleary don't understand why I can explain it for you. Being able to scout or not is a big point in the game. With 4 player maps all spawns you have to scout very early to be 100% sure to get any intel but if you do you sacrafice alot of eco which turns into a very luckbased game. Very new things would be maps GSL and IPL played already. These maps have already been played in online tournaments before being played in IPL Main even and GSL. Fans would most likely recognize them a little bit at least. I don't understand why you need something 'very new'. Players are obviously not happy to play on luckbased maps they never seen before. Fans probably don't enjoy watching games on new maps they never ever seen before and never ever will play. At least I don't. The only satisfaction I can see is for the admin who got to pick the map so he got to feel happy he did something. Just my point, hope it will be a tournament which nice admins Once again, thanks for spacesharks, at least the comment put a big smile on my face ^___________^
Isn't Entombed Valley a 4 player map with all spawns enabled? 4 Player maps worked pretty well so far in tournaments both in SC2 and in Broodwar, so it just sounds like a matter of personal preference to me.
I think It's forced cross in GSL, not sure though.
It's not
It's Forced 3 spawns. You can't start left/right to each other
On April 15 2012 16:16 Kraznaya wrote: Is liquid going to be at DH? Any word on this?
Hero and TLO are confirmed, I saw Sheth practicing DH maps on stream so maybe he's going to attend also.
On April 15 2012 17:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: HerO will skip Dreamhack regardless of Code S, to put more time into practice and become a better player. He'll go to Dreamhack Summer though.
On April 15 2012 17:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: HerO will skip Dreamhack regardless of Code S, to put more time into practice and become a better player. He'll go to Dreamhack Summer though.
FYI
Oh that's sad, seems a lot of players are deciding to skip dreamhack T_T
I've been trying to find out information about the April 21st: what will that be like since there isn't any stage show? Will it be 64 computers on the floor and you can walk around and see whoever you want?
The 22nd are an organized stage show, like DHW @ kinnarps, correct?
On April 15 2012 16:16 Kraznaya wrote: Is liquid going to be at DH? Any word on this?
Hero and TLO are confirmed, I saw Sheth practicing DH maps on stream so maybe he's going to attend also.
On April 15 2012 17:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: HerO will skip Dreamhack regardless of Code S, to put more time into practice and become a better player. He'll go to Dreamhack Summer though.
FYI
Oh that's sad, seems a lot of players are deciding to skip dreamhack T_T
Hopefully they will regret it when they see how awesome it is. ^^
Oh, completely forgot that Dreamhack was this weekend. Will probably plan on tuning in for some of the third group stage and bracket play, but my sleep schedule is almost the complete opposite of when the games will be played. xD
I understand that they are trying to hype the event by not releasing all the player names at once, but it's just a few days away, will probably end up hurting them in terms of ticket sales, rather than provide hype.
On April 18 2012 02:50 Azuroz wrote: I understand that they are trying to hype the event by not releasing all the player names at once, but it's just a few days away, will probably end up hurting them in terms of ticket sales, rather than provide hype.
I wouldn't expect too much from the remaining spots.
I guess there will be some top europeans in the last announcement, but the lineup right now is already pretty cool with Mana, Sjow, Slivko, Snute, Socke, Morrow, Cloud, Naama, Delphi, Naninwa, Nerchio, Thorzain, Titan, TLO, Genius, Polt, Idra, Puma, JYP, Ret and Sase.
If the seeding for the first groupstage will be done correct all the nonames will be eliminated pretty fast anyway.
On April 19 2012 00:15 Dexington wrote: There's like 50 players left to be announced. I wonder if there will be any big names or if it will just be a bunch more no name Swedes like Pubes.
Does anyone know how many tickets are left? I'm thinking of buying but can't be 100% sure that I'm going (not going if my friends aren't going), but I'm worried tomorrow they might be sold out tomorrow.
Ticnet should introduce a function where you can see how many seats are left. It's not rocket science...
He said Dreamhack Summer, that's not the same event.
Yeah something smells fishy because GSL was running Dreamhack ads last night. I feel there must be some hidden partnership going on. Perhaps the GSL or GSTL is coming to Dreamhack along with kPOP?
No not JYP TT. Wanted to see him. I think there might be some competitor tickets left. So go and buy them people :D And welcome Polt and Hyun to sweden.
It would make sense that more Eu players would join as well, such as Kas, WhiteRa, Dimaga, Bigs, Bly, Darkforce, DBS, Goody, Diestar, Titan, ReaL, Tarson to name a few ^^
On April 19 2012 00:09 Champloo wrote: "Please note that Grubby and HerO have cancelled their participation"
So Grubby really casts that 8 man MLG thing instead of competing at Dreamhack?
Good paycheck from casting > Quite unlikely prize money I guess :/. Still a Grubby fan but I would've hoped he would choose competing over casting.
Grubby was one of my favorite players but not anymore. It's disappointing as hell to see a pro player turn down his profession to do something else which he makes more money with. I understand why from a financial standpoint (and for his life after pro gaming, i probably would have done the same) but don't call yourself a 100% motivated pro-gamer anymore cause then you just flat out lie to your fans.
Still love the guy though but he's of my fav list as a player.
On April 19 2012 00:09 Champloo wrote: "Please note that Grubby and HerO have cancelled their participation"
So Grubby really casts that 8 man MLG thing instead of competing at Dreamhack?
Good paycheck from casting > Quite unlikely prize money I guess :/. Still a Grubby fan but I would've hoped he would choose competing over casting.
Grubby was one of my favorite players but not anymore. It's disappointing as hell to see a pro player turn down his profession to do something else which he makes more money with. I understand why from a financial standpoint (and for his life after pro gaming, i probably would have done the same) but don't call yourself a 100% motivated pro-gamer anymore cause then you just flat out lie to your fans.
Still love the guy though but he's of my fav list as a player.
On April 19 2012 20:24 Vapaach wrote: I predict Jinro and Welmu will be competing.
It would make sense that more Eu players would join as well, such as Kas, WhiteRa, Dimaga, Bigs, Bly, Darkforce, DBS, Goody, Diestar, Titan, ReaL, Tarson to name a few ^^
On April 19 2012 00:09 Champloo wrote: "Please note that Grubby and HerO have cancelled their participation"
So Grubby really casts that 8 man MLG thing instead of competing at Dreamhack?
Good paycheck from casting > Quite unlikely prize money I guess :/. Still a Grubby fan but I would've hoped he would choose competing over casting.
Grubby was one of my favorite players but not anymore. It's disappointing as hell to see a pro player turn down his profession to do something else which he makes more money with. I understand why from a financial standpoint (and for his life after pro gaming, i probably would have done the same) but don't call yourself a 100% motivated pro-gamer anymore cause then you just flat out lie to your fans.
Still love the guy though but he's of my fav list as a player.
get over yourself
wow strong argument, kudo's man or should i say kid?
On April 19 2012 00:09 Champloo wrote: "Please note that Grubby and HerO have cancelled their participation"
So Grubby really casts that 8 man MLG thing instead of competing at Dreamhack?
Good paycheck from casting > Quite unlikely prize money I guess :/. Still a Grubby fan but I would've hoped he would choose competing over casting.
Grubby was one of my favorite players but not anymore. It's disappointing as hell to see a pro player turn down his profession to do something else which he makes more money with. I understand why from a financial standpoint (and for his life after pro gaming, i probably would have done the same) but don't call yourself a 100% motivated pro-gamer anymore cause then you just flat out lie to your fans.
Still love the guy though but he's of my fav list as a player.
get over yourself
wow strong argument, kudo's man or should i say kid?
Few people in the West meet the dedication to be the best, the will to develop esports and new players, the fan service that Grubby has. On top of that he is an excellent caster and has a insane theoritical knowledge of the game.
Basically, yeah get over yourself because you are an embarrassment with the sheer amount of ignorance you are displaying.
On April 19 2012 00:09 Champloo wrote: "Please note that Grubby and HerO have cancelled their participation"
So Grubby really casts that 8 man MLG thing instead of competing at Dreamhack?
Good paycheck from casting > Quite unlikely prize money I guess :/. Still a Grubby fan but I would've hoped he would choose competing over casting.
Grubby was one of my favorite players but not anymore. It's disappointing as hell to see a pro player turn down his profession to do something else which he makes more money with. I understand why from a financial standpoint (and for his life after pro gaming, i probably would have done the same) but don't call yourself a 100% motivated pro-gamer anymore cause then you just flat out lie to your fans.
Still love the guy though but he's of my fav list as a player.
get over yourself
wow strong argument, kudo's man or should i say kid?
Few people in the West meet the dedication to be the best, the will to develop esports and new players, the fan service that Grubby has. On top of that he is an excellent caster and has a insane theoritical knowledge of the game.
Basically, yeah get over yourself because you are an embarrassment with the sheer amount of ignorance you are displaying.
I'd rather see Grubby playing instead of casting, especially as he recently demolished TLO.
On April 19 2012 00:09 Champloo wrote: "Please note that Grubby and HerO have cancelled their participation"
So Grubby really casts that 8 man MLG thing instead of competing at Dreamhack?
Good paycheck from casting > Quite unlikely prize money I guess :/. Still a Grubby fan but I would've hoped he would choose competing over casting.
Grubby was one of my favorite players but not anymore. It's disappointing as hell to see a pro player turn down his profession to do something else which he makes more money with. I understand why from a financial standpoint (and for his life after pro gaming, i probably would have done the same) but don't call yourself a 100% motivated pro-gamer anymore cause then you just flat out lie to your fans.
Still love the guy though but he's of my fav list as a player.
get over yourself
wow strong argument, kudo's man or should i say kid?
Few people in the West meet the dedication to be the best, the will to develop esports and new players, the fan service that Grubby has. On top of that he is an excellent caster and has a insane theoritical knowledge of the game.
Basically, yeah get over yourself because you are an embarrassment with the sheer amount of ignorance you are displaying.
I'd rather see Grubby playing instead of casting, especially as he recently demolished TLO.
And you are right to do so. I do too. Nonetheless calling him a disappointment, a liar and saying he is casting for the money is outrageous.
On April 19 2012 00:09 Champloo wrote: "Please note that Grubby and HerO have cancelled their participation"
So Grubby really casts that 8 man MLG thing instead of competing at Dreamhack?
Good paycheck from casting > Quite unlikely prize money I guess :/. Still a Grubby fan but I would've hoped he would choose competing over casting.
Grubby was one of my favorite players but not anymore. It's disappointing as hell to see a pro player turn down his profession to do something else which he makes more money with. I understand why from a financial standpoint (and for his life after pro gaming, i probably would have done the same) but don't call yourself a 100% motivated pro-gamer anymore cause then you just flat out lie to your fans.
Still love the guy though but he's of my fav list as a player.
yeah, it says a lot when you choose casting over playing, I think this is a sign of things to come though, more foreigners will choose and actively seek other avenues in esports other than playing
Me and a friend have bought tickets but now another friend wants to join us. However, we want to have seats next to each other. Anyone knows how Ticnet deals with this? Would it be possible to switch places?
Have you realized that Genious is there? He will win the tournament, definitively. Polt takes second place. Naniwa and Puma to semifinals. Hell, now I realize it is single elim. If they face each other earlier.... but Genious wins anyway!
Do you remember if Genious has already played in a big tournament outside Korea? Or is this the first time?
On April 20 2012 18:15 Xamo wrote: Have you realized that Genious is there? He will win the tournament, definitively. Polt takes second place. Naniwa and Puma to semifinals. Hell, now I realize it is single elim. If they face each other earlier.... but Genious wins anyway!
Do you remember if Genious has already played in a big tournament outside Korea? Or is this the first time?
He won Blizzcon 2010 and I'm pretty sure he went to another Dreamhack before. He didn't do that well, from what I remember.
On April 20 2012 18:15 Xamo wrote: Have you realized that Genious is there? He will win the tournament, definitively. Polt takes second place. Naniwa and Puma to semifinals. Hell, now I realize it is single elim. If they face each other earlier.... but Genious wins anyway!
Do you remember if Genious has already played in a big tournament outside Korea? Or is this the first time?
He was knocked out by Puma in Ro16 in last years DHW.
On April 20 2012 18:41 Waxangel wrote: essentially meaningless first group stage? T_T
Essentially, giving the locals some exposure and the pros some warmup within easily controllable scheduling. I like that way, Gathering and Copenhagen had the same tournament structure.
On April 20 2012 18:41 Waxangel wrote: essentially meaningless first group stage? T_T
Yes.
Same as MLG or IPL open bracket. Except they use group stages to get rid of the random casual signups rather than double elim brackets.
IPL: Open for everyone (Double elim) -> Group play for those making it (Groups) -> Final Bracket play for top group finishers (double elim) MLG: Open for everyone (Double elim) -> Group play for those making it (Groups) -> Final Bracket play for top group finishers (double elim, with possibility to enter bracket play through open lower bracket) DH: Open for everyone (Groups) -> Group play for those making it (More Groups) -> Final Bracket play for top group finishers (single elim)
I'm disapointed that more players haven't turned up, this is a fairly huge tournament, but even then, I actually prefer pointless group stages to double elim formats, as it allows the no name sign ups to play games against pros, and as someone says, it gives pros a chance to warm up, but still means there is a single elimination format at the end, which is a much more hype format imo.
On April 20 2012 19:35 MCDayC wrote: I'm disapointed that more players haven't turned up, this is a fairly huge tournament, but even then, I actually prefer pointless group stages to double elim formats, as it allows the no name sign ups to play games against pros, and as someone says, it gives pros a chance to warm up, but still means there is a single elimination format at the end, which is a much more hype format imo.
Yeah but it's gonna be good anyways. There are some good koreans there aswell as a bunch of good foreigners aswell.
Maybe if MLG didn't have this little 8man mini event of theirs they would've gone to Dreamhack instead.
The number of entrance is appaling. They should rearrange the format to two group stage round instead of three and have a couple of groups with 5 participants. No one have to ahve play games than what they already have to and a the lower level players get more matches, rather than just 2.
The www.dreamhack.se is full of info us (online viewers) arn't to interested in. What i want to know is Who is playing who when, ( what time do i need to be online to view the matches i want to see)..... Sigh... that site needs work. Its even hard to know what streams there are, and so on...
Ah i found it... thanks tl posters DON"T hide that stuff make it linked from the main page thats where your site visitors are comming for.
On April 20 2012 23:19 Treenut wrote: The www.dreamhack.se is full of info us (online viewers) arn't to interested in. What i want to know is Who is playing who when, ( what time do i need to be online to view the matches i want to see)..... Sigh... that site needs work. Its even hard to know what streams there are, and so on...
Ah i found it... thanks tl posters DON"T hide that stuff make it linked from the main page thats where your site visitors are comming for.
On April 21 2012 00:48 Viggen wrote: Is there any good overnight stay near the globe, like hostel or something? Me and my friend need some place to sleep at.
ask the guy with the post with a pic of his living room view with the globe in the background
I find the Dreamhack site attractive but completely unusable. (same thing goes for almost all tournament-sites) How hard can it be to provide easily found links to A. Players, B. Schedule, C. Streams, D, Vods ? None of these things can be found on the Dreamhack site. Laughably bad user interface design. Free streams are great though, as is the line-up (which I dug up in this very thread)!
First go to www.dreamhack.se - Then click continue to Dreamhack. Then click Dreamhack Open Eizo site. Then click the link provided in the text below the sponsors of the event. (http://open.dreamhack.se/).
Now you're at Dreamhack Eizo Open Stockholm website. Now you click Event info under Current Event Stockholm Annexet (Stockholm Globe Arenas) 21-22 April.
Under Event Info and Tournament Info you got everything that you asked for neatly linked and ready to be served!
On April 21 2012 19:38 SnowmonkeyJLo wrote: I find the Dreamhack site attractive but completely unusable. (same thing goes for almost all tournament-sites) How hard can it be to provide easily found links to A. Players, B. Schedule, C. Streams, D, Vods ? None of these things can be found on the Dreamhack site. Laughably bad user interface design. Free streams are great though, as is the line-up (which I dug up in this very thread)!
Yeah, as a web designer i cringe everytime i visit dreamhack.se... The navigation really is horrible.
Some funny things I've noticed @ DH about 2 hours ago:
Nerchio roaming around the tournament floor like he's lost or really bored but still maintaining a look of happiness on his face. Genius and another Korean dude playing a football game with swedish teams on xbox. Naniwa walking on the tournament floor folowed by a large suite of both Korean and non-Korean girls at a safe distance.
On April 21 2012 19:38 SnowmonkeyJLo wrote: I find the Dreamhack site attractive but completely unusable. (same thing goes for almost all tournament-sites) How hard can it be to provide easily found links to A. Players, B. Schedule, C. Streams, D, Vods ? None of these things can be found on the Dreamhack site. Laughably bad user interface design. Free streams are great though, as is the line-up (which I dug up in this very thread)!
Yeah, as a web designer i cringe everytime i visit dreamhack.se... The navigation really is horrible.
MLG is the worst
ESL is ugly (beta site)
Dreamhack is normal bad
teamliquid is confusing. cause there are so many threads and so. i never find anything. so i don´t use it really.
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
We still haven't gotten an explanation on this T_T How can they improve if the person complaining fails even the most part of feed back by giving constructive criticism instead of just whining?
On April 04 2012 02:26 Liquid`NonY wrote: Another ridiculous map pool I can't believe how so many leagues could easily make a huge improvement with a better map pool and they just don't do it. Open your eyes!!!
We still haven't gotten an explanation on this T_T How can they improve if the person complaining fails even the most part of feed back by giving constructive criticism instead of just whining?
The explanation was given at State of the Game: the map pool was too big.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://master.dreamhack.se/dhs12/files/2012/03/stockholmnyhet.jpg)
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