DreamHack EIZO Open Stockholm - April 21-22, 2012 - Page 11

On April 04 2012 04:39 Diamond wrote:


What's your argument against besides stuff said on SoTG? Mine is that most players don't do map specific strats and play every single map the same and that excuse is bullshit outside the GSL.

On April 04 2012 05:00 Plansix wrote:


Its a chicken and the egg argument. Most players do not do specific strats for maps because the map pool is so large and they do not have time for refine them down. They have limited practice time and need to spend it in the most effective manner.

But if you want to see an argument not from SotG: I have never seen a best of 5 with 4 maps. I would love to see a full set that begins and ends with the same map, as long as they were solid maps. It would be more interesting that 9 maps and a ton of vetos.

On April 04 2012 05:00 Plansix wrote:


Its a chicken and the egg argument. Most players do not do specific strats for maps because the map pool is so large and they do not have time for refine them down. They have limited practice time and need to spend it in the most effective manner.

But if you want to see an argument not from SotG: I have never seen a best of 5 with 4 maps. I would love to see a full set that begins and ends with the same map, as long as they were solid maps. It would be more interesting that 9 maps and a ton of vetos.

On April 04 2012 05:06 Diamond wrote:


As someone that uses a 5 map pool, although the quality of games tend to go up a bit, but it's not revolutionary or anything.

Also that argument is EXACTLY what SoTG said, 4 map pool like BW, blah blah blah.

5 map pools I pretty much guarantee will end up being the wave of the future, but for the moment even if a tourney was to make a 4 map pool, you would still have players playing it like it was any other map outside the GSL.

On April 04 2012 05:42 Dexington wrote:


That argument was specifically on SotG

On April 04 2012 05:44 Plansix wrote:


You know, putting blah blah blah at the end of statments you think are invalid does not make them invalid. Demanding people provide a different argument than the ones of SotG before their reasons to be good ones is silly. Map pool of 9 maps provides me with nothing that I cannot see on a stream of a practice session, which makes me not want to watch. I watch to see impressive, creative well thought out play, which I don't think a large map poll can provide. It think more maps waters down the quality of play.

On April 04 2012 02:30 prodiG wrote:

What don't you like about it? (I dislike Shakuras/Metal a lot here but they're using Vicious so I can't complain a lot~)

On April 04 2012 05:55 DYEAlabaster wrote:


Overlapping map choices- Metal and metro, Shak and frigid pass, vicious and antiga. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of ESV maps over anything else is kind of pointless, and silly

On April 04 2012 05:57 Diamond wrote:


There's 4 maps from ESV, 2 from Crux, and 3 ladder. Idk that I would call that the overwhelming majority.

Agree with the overlapping choices however.

On April 04 2012 06:03 DYEAlabaster wrote:


Overlapping map choices result from there being an artificial number of ESV maps put in the map pool. Personally, I would take out some combination of those six maps. The pool is being inflated for adding in ESV maps, and that's where the problem stems.

Whether or not ESV deserves to be more present than other maps in a pool is a different matter entirely.

On April 04 2012 06:08 Diamond wrote:


Why do you feel that the pool went up to 9 maps because of ESV maps? Afaik Dreamhack had already planned LONG before the event to have 9 maps. They didn't inflate it for us....

Edit: To further that I informed DH admins of a potential Antiga/Vicious overlap and offered alternatives both ESV and non ESV.

On April 04 2012 06:15 DYEAlabaster wrote:


I feel that way because I see a map pool that is fairly standard, and then I see three new maps added, and they're all ESV. But that's not the issue so much.

ESV is just one of many sources of non-crux-non-ladder maps, and I feel that other potential talents (TPW, freelancers), aren't really being given a fair chance because of the organizational force that you helm Diamond. No other mapping company has opportunity or chance to test their maps like ESV does with the Korean Weekly. Because of this, you have a map pool that has some GSL maps, some ladder maps, and the rest are ESV. I don't quite get why this is the case. Organizations like IPL risk it on a mix between ESV, freelance, etc etc.

Don't reply with saying that ESV maps are just "better"- they're not. They just have more exposure and more ability to be playtested by pros.

This map pool bothers me because it's a- too big, b- taking from only one small part of the community, and c- has (at least) 3 completely redundant maps.

On April 04 2012 06:17 Diamond wrote:


Any other map team could do these things, they just choose not to because it costs money and lots of time. Seems I am the only one willing to put those both on the line. Shame on me I guess.

On April 04 2012 06:22 DYEAlabaster wrote:


Like I said, all the more power to you for running things the way you are- obviously you're doing an excellent job with the proliferation of ESV maps in ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. However, the organizational force that you run, in my opinion, creates a monopoly over the 'foreign' map-making scene. A monopoly that you worked very hard to achieve. However, I am personally against that concept as a whole.

I just hope that this pool gets fixed before the event.

On April 04 2012 06:25 Diamond wrote:

Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to follow suit. That is their fault and theirs alone.

On April 04 2012 06:25 Diamond wrote:


Then don't bitch at me about it. Go to TPW or whomever else, tell them to get off their asses and host tournaments. Why in the blue hell have I never seen a TPW tournament? There's almost no reason at all there should not be one, even if it's something simple on the NA server with a small prize pool.

Players, organizers, and fans all came to me and told me "we won't use your maps until they are properly tested by good players." I went and solved that problem, don't place the blame on tournaments like Dreamhack because other map teams did not choose to make their own circuits. That is their fault and theirs alone.

On April 04 2012 06:32 DYEAlabaster wrote:


There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.

I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).

I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.

On April 04 2012 06:34 IronManSC wrote:


The Korean Weekly is for you then.

On April 04 2012 06:32 DYEAlabaster wrote:


There's no need to get defensive. I'm not bitching at you (please refer to me saying you're doing a good thing, multiple times). More, I'm disappointed in the professional choices that Dreamhack made, and I am voicing why I believe that they made the wrong choices.

I haven't made hide or mention of the quality of the ESV maps chosen, so there's no need to get all defensive and angry about it. Of course other organizations need to step it up, but until they do, you have a monopoly, something that I disagree with on principle. Not saying that you don't deserve the monopoly or didn't work for it (or other mappers don't put enough effort into changing the situation), b/c that's all true. However, the situation as it exists is troublesome to me (and apparently, I'm not the only one).

I would love to see a 4-5 map tournament. Fullstop.

On April 04 2012 06:29 hugge wrote:


Also. Please note that Diamond didn´t contact DH. I, as admin contacted him about a few maps i was interested i and wanted them to be "tournament-fixed" with depots, spacesharks and such. And we worked from there. Please also note that this is a open tournament, we need a map-pool that has something for everyone, some old, some new and something very new.

We also wanted to test something new out, lets see how it roll. If its no goodwe change. We will of course monitor everything closely and see what hit homes.