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On March 11 2012 06:59 Vaelone wrote:I enjoyed the tournament, was something new and different and I feel sorry over the people bitching about the format considering it wasn't supposed to be a serious tournament at all and rematch didn't even cross my mind even though I'm aware of how double elimination usually works. Anyway from wikipedia: Show nested quote +
The championship finals of a double elimination tournament is usually set up to be a possible two games. The rationale is that since the tournament is indeed double elimination, it is unfair to have the Winners' Bracket champion eliminated with its first loss. Therefore, while the Winners' Bracket champion needs to beat the Losers' Bracket champion only once to win the tournament, the Losers' Bracket champion must beat the Winners' Bracket champion twice.
In some tournaments, however, the final game is always winner-take-all, or always a best-of-three set of games, with the usual advantage of the last Winner's Bracket team ignored.
But keep on whining EG fans, it would have been the same system even if EG came from lower bracket. At least they had the advantage of playing one match less unless if I lost count somewhere.
How is playing one more match a disadvantage?
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On March 11 2012 07:02 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 06:54 Spooony wrote:On March 11 2012 06:49 Shantastic wrote:
It may have been for fun, but at the end of the day, it was a winner/loser bracket format tournament for $1,000, so please stop saying it was for fun. When there's money involved, you have to deliver on the tournament. I love TB as much as the next cattlebruiser, but EG got screwed out of their fair chance to win $1,000 because he didn't understand double-elim. Simple as that. $1k put up by the person holding the tournament, He can choose to use whatever format he wishes. Don't get angry at a guy for putting his own money on a fun little tournament, Where the money comes from is not the responsibility of EG or Liquid or Quantic or Dignitas. Four players invested five hours (one of them sacrificing sleep) into an opportunity to make $1,000 under the condition that they had to lose two series to be eliminated. The players were then told at the abrupt end of their time investment that they would not be given any advantage for having been the only team to go undefeated.
And all of these teams were told the format before the tournament. Including how the final worked.
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Well I enjoyed myself loads watching this even. I think it was amazing to watch and was hilarious to see the awful unit comps that came out at times. I think more thanks to TB (and Chill) are needed for a good 5-6 hours of FREE entertainment.
But hey, we wont get another one due to people making drama so I guess it is lucky that we all tuned into this one. Seriously cut the crap out.
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On March 11 2012 06:55 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 06:47 .syL wrote:
That's not true though. You can have a double elimination format without playing to boX in the finals, although that is the format most widely used. I wish tournaments would move away from it and just play a single bo5 or 7 finals. It's still advantagous to win the winner bracket final, as the loser runs the risk of being eliminated in the lower bracket. And two boX can (and often are) anticlimatic. Wrong. Winning from the winner's bracket holds no advantage. You go into the final not having dropped a series against a team that dropped a series. That is why any tournament with a single-series final is a single-elimination tournament. To argue that any double-elimination tournament in which a team can be eliminated by losing once is moronic.
All tournament systems are arbitrary, there is no "right" or "wrong". The only important thing is consistency insofar as that at no point in the tournament should a team benefit from intentionally losing a game. In the case of double-elim tournaments, it is not beneficial to intentionally lose the winner bracket final (or any other winner bracket game) even if the grand final is just a straight up boX, because doing so would create one more chance to be eliminated without any gain whatsoever. By playing just one match, you're not giving the winner bracket finalist AS MUCH of an advantage as under a more standard double-elim format, but it's still advantagous. The trade-in is a more spectator friendly straigt-up championship match.
Conceptually, think of it this way: The winner of a tournament is whoever wins the bo7 grand final. There are two ways to qualify for the final, by either winning the upper or the lower bracket.
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On March 11 2012 07:07 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 06:59 Vaelone wrote:I enjoyed the tournament, was something new and different and I feel sorry over the people bitching about the format considering it wasn't supposed to be a serious tournament at all and rematch didn't even cross my mind even though I'm aware of how double elimination usually works. Anyway from wikipedia:
The championship finals of a double elimination tournament is usually set up to be a possible two games. The rationale is that since the tournament is indeed double elimination, it is unfair to have the Winners' Bracket champion eliminated with its first loss. Therefore, while the Winners' Bracket champion needs to beat the Losers' Bracket champion only once to win the tournament, the Losers' Bracket champion must beat the Winners' Bracket champion twice.
In some tournaments, however, the final game is always winner-take-all, or always a best-of-three set of games, with the usual advantage of the last Winner's Bracket team ignored.
But keep on whining EG fans, it would have been the same system even if EG came from lower bracket. At least they had the advantage of playing one match less unless if I lost count somewhere. So because some tournaments are use a stupid set up, it makes it not stupid? No, thats not how it works. Liquid fans would be upset if they were in EG's situation too.
It's stupid to call tournament format stupid. You can dislike it, that's your choice. There are obviously arguments that go both ways in favor of both options, otherwise this discussion wouldn't happen every single time there's a double-elim tournament LR thread. I get it, it's a (much) less popular option, just like PL format is now a lot less popular than WL for team leagues. But it's all about preference (of the audience and organizers).
Besides, I'm not even sure if it was intended to be like this by design or it was agreed upon due to time constraints in this case.
Personally, I consider double-elim to be conceptually awful and would never ever use it in Starcraft in any shape or form. But since it got popular in the west, we had to default to using what western organizers prefer (in other words: copy-paste everything from Counterstrike).
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On March 11 2012 07:02 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 06:54 Spooony wrote:On March 11 2012 06:49 Shantastic wrote:
It may have been for fun, but at the end of the day, it was a winner/loser bracket format tournament for $1,000, so please stop saying it was for fun. When there's money involved, you have to deliver on the tournament. I love TB as much as the next cattlebruiser, but EG got screwed out of their fair chance to win $1,000 because he didn't understand double-elim. Simple as that. $1k put up by the person holding the tournament, He can choose to use whatever format he wishes. Don't get angry at a guy for putting his own money on a fun little tournament, Where the money comes from is not the responsibility of EG or Liquid or Quantic or Dignitas. Four players invested five hours (one of them sacrificing sleep) into an opportunity to make $1,000 under the condition that they had to lose two series to be eliminated. The players were then told at the abrupt end of their time investment that they would not be given any advantage for having been the only team to go undefeated.
You dont know what was said off camera or what was agreed before hand do you? Please stop manufacturing issues where there are none. Most of us enjoyed it as it was, and I bet most would want it to happen again AS IT IS.
Dont ruin it for the rest by insisting on having the last word.
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On March 11 2012 07:11 Zaran wrote:
Well I enjoyed myself loads watching this even. I think it was amazing to watch and was hilarious to see the awful unit comps that came out at times. I think more thanks to TB (and Chill) are needed for a good 5-6 hours of FREE entertainment.
But hey, we wont get another one due to people making drama so I guess it is lucky that we all tuned into this one. Seriously cut the crap out.
all TB has to do is fix the format. People will happily tune in.
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To all the people complaining ...
THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS!
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On March 11 2012 06:34 YoiChiBow wrote:
GG's all! Pls reinvite Quantic back to the next one! was super fun :D I need to work on my bm for HuK next time ^_-
haha plz dont, i dont really like being bm; but i got encouraged by every1 because im so good at it TT... its not really me and i was just joking. <3
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Nooooo i wanted to watch this tournement so bad, but the university duties called 
Are there VODS somewhere? or will i have to live with this loss?
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On March 11 2012 07:13 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 07:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 11 2012 06:59 Vaelone wrote:I enjoyed the tournament, was something new and different and I feel sorry over the people bitching about the format considering it wasn't supposed to be a serious tournament at all and rematch didn't even cross my mind even though I'm aware of how double elimination usually works. Anyway from wikipedia:
The championship finals of a double elimination tournament is usually set up to be a possible two games. The rationale is that since the tournament is indeed double elimination, it is unfair to have the Winners' Bracket champion eliminated with its first loss. Therefore, while the Winners' Bracket champion needs to beat the Losers' Bracket champion only once to win the tournament, the Losers' Bracket champion must beat the Winners' Bracket champion twice.
In some tournaments, however, the final game is always winner-take-all, or always a best-of-three set of games, with the usual advantage of the last Winner's Bracket team ignored.
But keep on whining EG fans, it would have been the same system even if EG came from lower bracket. At least they had the advantage of playing one match less unless if I lost count somewhere. So because some tournaments are use a stupid set up, it makes it not stupid? No, thats not how it works. Liquid fans would be upset if they were in EG's situation too. It's stupid to call tournament format stupid. You can dislike it, that's your choice. There are obviously arguments that go both ways in favor of both options, otherwise this discussion wouldn't happen every single time there's a double-elim tournament LR thread. I get it, it's a (much) less popular option, just like PL format is now a lot less popular than WL for team leagues. But it's all about preference (of the audience and organizers). Besides, I'm not even sure if it was intended to be like this by design or it was agreed upon due to time constraints in this case.
How is it stupid to call the format stupid? It is. The whole point of double elimination is to give each team a second chance. In this format, every team BUT EG got a second chance. How is that not stupid?
I would love to see another one of these tournaments, but just make it actual double elim, make the finals two bo3's. Everything is fixed.
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On March 11 2012 06:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Sad now, feel I botched the entire thing and ruined it for everyone
Whoa. If I can't be completely honest with you, I'm not showing you the respect you show your fans:
The tournament was an amazing idea. You organized everything and fronted the money, and you got the players and a great co-caster.
The execution was, for the most part, fantastic. You got the casts and series going with much more momentum than most live tournies, and the games were wholly entertaining, every bit deserving of the 20-30k viewers you peaked at.
You royally fucked up the finals format, and the rage at the way the winner was decided is absolutely justified.
Did you botch the whole thing? Absolutely not. You botched an important part, which tainted the tournament's success. PLEASE do this tournament again. Just make sure no faction is denied equal chance of winning. That mistake was the one and ONLY thing that held this tourney from being a phenomenal success.
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Just made an account, just to say thank you for an amusing & RNG based -casual- tournament. Hope to see this again at some point.
If people would be less serious over it, as far as we the viewers know the teams very well might have known the format before hand. Could also considering how it was really late for some of the players, stretching it out longer might not have been appreciated?
Thanks again to all that were involved!
Don't hate, create! :3
p.s. might also add I think TB's reaction to knee jerk comments may or may not be influenced by vodka..
Do agree in at least the format could do with some tweaks ( perhaps preventing dupe units? or having mothership toggled off as default? sure some experts / the players in the tournament could feedback.)
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On March 11 2012 07:18 1ManArmy wrote:Nooooo i wanted to watch this tournement so bad, but the university duties called Are there VODS somewhere? or will i have to live with this loss?
Can't see them anywhere yet, but TB is usually very good at getting them up on to his Youtube channel.
EDIT: You can watch it at http://www.twitch.tv/totalbiscuit/b/311236606
Big thanks to TB and all of the players. Whilst the big tournaments are always enjoyable, it's such a blast to see players chilling out and taking things less seriously, we don't often get to see it.
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On March 11 2012 07:13 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 07:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 11 2012 06:59 Vaelone wrote:I enjoyed the tournament, was something new and different and I feel sorry over the people bitching about the format considering it wasn't supposed to be a serious tournament at all and rematch didn't even cross my mind even though I'm aware of how double elimination usually works. Anyway from wikipedia:
The championship finals of a double elimination tournament is usually set up to be a possible two games. The rationale is that since the tournament is indeed double elimination, it is unfair to have the Winners' Bracket champion eliminated with its first loss. Therefore, while the Winners' Bracket champion needs to beat the Losers' Bracket champion only once to win the tournament, the Losers' Bracket champion must beat the Winners' Bracket champion twice.
In some tournaments, however, the final game is always winner-take-all, or always a best-of-three set of games, with the usual advantage of the last Winner's Bracket team ignored.
But keep on whining EG fans, it would have been the same system even if EG came from lower bracket. At least they had the advantage of playing one match less unless if I lost count somewhere. So because some tournaments are use a stupid set up, it makes it not stupid? No, thats not how it works. Liquid fans would be upset if they were in EG's situation too. It's stupid to call tournament format stupid. You can dislike it, that's your choice. There are obviously arguments that go both ways in favor of both options, otherwise this discussion wouldn't happen every single time there's a double-elim tournament LR thread. I get it, it's a (much) less popular option, just like PL format is now a lot less popular than WL for team leagues. But it's all about preference (of the audience and organizers). Besides, I'm not even sure if it was intended to be like this by design or it was agreed upon due to time constraints in this case. Personally, I consider double-elim to be conceptually awful and would never ever use it in Starcraft in any shape or form. But since it got popular in the west, we had to default to using what western organizers prefer (in other words: copy-paste everything from Counterstrike).
I don't mind double elimination. It provides some great drama. Leenock would have never won MLG Providence without it, imagine MLG Providence without that story line, wouldn't have been the same.
single elim is fine and fair. But combining double elim and single elim, there is a problem there
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On March 11 2012 07:18 1ManArmy wrote:Nooooo i wanted to watch this tournement so bad, but the university duties called Are there VODS somewhere? or will i have to live with this loss?
They will probably be available at youtube.com/totalbiscuit
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On March 11 2012 07:18 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 07:13 Talin wrote:On March 11 2012 07:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 11 2012 06:59 Vaelone wrote:I enjoyed the tournament, was something new and different and I feel sorry over the people bitching about the format considering it wasn't supposed to be a serious tournament at all and rematch didn't even cross my mind even though I'm aware of how double elimination usually works. Anyway from wikipedia:
The championship finals of a double elimination tournament is usually set up to be a possible two games. The rationale is that since the tournament is indeed double elimination, it is unfair to have the Winners' Bracket champion eliminated with its first loss. Therefore, while the Winners' Bracket champion needs to beat the Losers' Bracket champion only once to win the tournament, the Losers' Bracket champion must beat the Winners' Bracket champion twice.
In some tournaments, however, the final game is always winner-take-all, or always a best-of-three set of games, with the usual advantage of the last Winner's Bracket team ignored.
But keep on whining EG fans, it would have been the same system even if EG came from lower bracket. At least they had the advantage of playing one match less unless if I lost count somewhere. So because some tournaments are use a stupid set up, it makes it not stupid? No, thats not how it works. Liquid fans would be upset if they were in EG's situation too. It's stupid to call tournament format stupid. You can dislike it, that's your choice. There are obviously arguments that go both ways in favor of both options, otherwise this discussion wouldn't happen every single time there's a double-elim tournament LR thread. I get it, it's a (much) less popular option, just like PL format is now a lot less popular than WL for team leagues. But it's all about preference (of the audience and organizers). Besides, I'm not even sure if it was intended to be like this by design or it was agreed upon due to time constraints in this case. How is it stupid to call the format stupid? It is. The whole point of double elimination is to give each team a second chance. In this format, every team BUT EG got a second chance. How is that not stupid?
You make it sound as if EG was singled out, when in this tournament format the only thing that happens is reducing the advantage you get from winning the upper bracket. If that were unfair, it would be beneficial to intentionally lose a game (to get that second chance). Of course, it's not.
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On March 11 2012 07:19 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 06:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Sad now, feel I botched the entire thing and ruined it for everyone Whoa. If I can't be completely honest with you, I'm not showing you the respect you show your fans: The tournament was an amazing idea. You organized everything and fronted the money, and you got the players and a great co-caster. The execution was, for the most part, fantastic. You got the casts and series going with much more momentum than most live tournies, and the games were wholly entertaining, every bit deserving of the 20-30k viewers you peaked at. You royally fucked up the finals format, and the rage at the way the winner was decided is absolutely justified. Did you botch the whole thing? Absolutely not. You botched an important part, which tainted the tournament's success. PLEASE do this tournament again. Just make sure no faction is denied equal chance of winning. That mistake was the one and ONLY thing that held this tourney from being a phenomenal success.
Why does there have to be rage at all, especially as this was always just a fun little tourny that was never meant to be taken seriously. It would be like raging at spring training baseball game that was free and ended in a tie, its not worth it. The tourney was a success and I really hope TB does more of these events for the community in the future.
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I really don't understand why people complain about the format or fairness of this tournament.
It is a Random Monobattle tournament!
I enjoyed every single moment of it. It was creative, new, refreshing and certainly brought a lot of joy!
We had a little CouchCraft going on here with 15 people and every single person involved loved it.
Instead of complaining, I encourage people to acknowledge the fact that this has never been done before in this way and that it has truly been a great experience. I certainly would love to see more Pro Random Monobattle tournaments with exactly the same format.
So, in short:
Thank you TB,
Thank you Chill,
Thank you to everyone behind the scenes,
Thank you to all the teams and players involved,
...for making this possible!
PS.: Where is the Bumblebee fanclub thread?
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On March 11 2012 07:23 .syL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 07:18 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 11 2012 07:13 Talin wrote:On March 11 2012 07:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 11 2012 06:59 Vaelone wrote:I enjoyed the tournament, was something new and different and I feel sorry over the people bitching about the format considering it wasn't supposed to be a serious tournament at all and rematch didn't even cross my mind even though I'm aware of how double elimination usually works. Anyway from wikipedia:
The championship finals of a double elimination tournament is usually set up to be a possible two games. The rationale is that since the tournament is indeed double elimination, it is unfair to have the Winners' Bracket champion eliminated with its first loss. Therefore, while the Winners' Bracket champion needs to beat the Losers' Bracket champion only once to win the tournament, the Losers' Bracket champion must beat the Winners' Bracket champion twice.
In some tournaments, however, the final game is always winner-take-all, or always a best-of-three set of games, with the usual advantage of the last Winner's Bracket team ignored.
But keep on whining EG fans, it would have been the same system even if EG came from lower bracket. At least they had the advantage of playing one match less unless if I lost count somewhere. So because some tournaments are use a stupid set up, it makes it not stupid? No, thats not how it works. Liquid fans would be upset if they were in EG's situation too. It's stupid to call tournament format stupid. You can dislike it, that's your choice. There are obviously arguments that go both ways in favor of both options, otherwise this discussion wouldn't happen every single time there's a double-elim tournament LR thread. I get it, it's a (much) less popular option, just like PL format is now a lot less popular than WL for team leagues. But it's all about preference (of the audience and organizers). Besides, I'm not even sure if it was intended to be like this by design or it was agreed upon due to time constraints in this case. How is it stupid to call the format stupid? It is. The whole point of double elimination is to give each team a second chance. In this format, every team BUT EG got a second chance. How is that not stupid? You make it sound as if EG was singled out, when in this tournament format the only thing that happens is reducing the advantage you get from winning the upper bracket. If that were unfair, it would be beneficial to intentionally lose a game (to get that second chance). Of course, it's not.
The advantage from winning the winners final isn't reduced, it is totally nonexistent. There is no disadvantage to losing a game in this format. Which, in my opinion, isn't fair.
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EPT
Pro Random Monobattles Tournament
