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On February 09 2012 04:12 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 03:59 tdt wrote:
Can't belive terran whine when it's 3 protoss and 3 terran left. I gess they are used to all RO8 being Terran with one token zerg or protoss. Sorry guys blanace is 33/33/33% It isn't based on raw numbers of who is left, it is based on the content of the games played. For instance: I have no issues at all with the metropolis game. Jjakji scouts the quick third, and decides to go for a 2 base ghost all-in to try to kill the protoss before too much splash is on the field. Protoss should have won that game. However, the game on cloud kingdom just seemed ridiculous. Parting forgets charge, a key component to the strategy he is trying to execute. He has his third denied twice - he is forced to cancel each time right after the nexus is over half built. Jjakji has 2-1 or 3-1 (I'll have to go back and look, either way he was ahead of protoss in upgrade) and is putting up a fourth when protoss is finally establishing his third. Parting lets his army get cornered and killed for basically nothing, it is a completely one-sided stomping and jjakji is up by a huge amount of supply... and he can not kill the protoss no matter what he does. Protoss just warps in zealots and cannons and storms all over the equally or better upgraded terran army until he gets his deathball and just one-shots planetaries and kills everything. Jjakji tries, but can't drop because Parting smartly uses cannons and templar to defend his bases. The game on Antiga was under similar circumstances, Jjakji up by a large amount of supply, scans the protoss third while it is being built and sees colossus and templar, and even though he has a much larger army he just freezes because he cannot attack into it. He could risk it and hope storm wasn't done building, but then it is just blind luck if he wins. Later, parting donates his army again, and again he can not be killed. That Jjakji landed his vikings made sense, after all he just CRUSHED through a protoss army supply efficiently, but no - Parting just warped in zealots and spammed storms everywhere and terran could not kill him. The game on Daybreak doesn't even make sense to me, it defies all RTS logic. You cannot rely on statistics and win-rates to make any claim about balance. In the Cloud Kingdom and Antiga games, parting made enormous mistakes, mistakes that if Jjakji had made, would've ended the game instantly.
I like your post because one thing is made kinda clear.The fights are not exactly imbalanced between toss vs protoss because if someone knows what he is doing he can negate both colossi and templars with ghosts and vikings.What happens is that if a terran wins the battle really cost efficiently he can't really kill the protoss with ghosts and vikings Cause emp doesnt kill stuff unlike storm and vikings just die to everything ground while colossi roast everything ground.To make it even more clear.12 alive vikings in the end of a battle instead of 2 colossus.What would you choose?What allows you to immediately capitalize on your big battle win.?The answer is obvious.5 Templars Vs 5 ghosts?What a terran is to do with 5 alive ghosts to capitalize on his big battle win go emp the probes and wait to be killed by a warpin of zealots?The Big fights are not the problem imo but the aftermath for terran.It's almost impossible if at all as kinda proven today to come back from a losing position.Protoss has the attacking units with the big splash dmg that in the absent of their counter they insta win the game and even if they are countered they are gonna force responses and awkward unit choices and composition by terran.Some of my thoughts tbh.
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On February 09 2012 07:52 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 07:44 s3rp wrote:On February 09 2012 07:41 CosmicSpiral wrote:On February 09 2012 07:38 SeaSwift wrote:On February 09 2012 07:36 CosmicSpiral wrote:
I'm waiting for the day that terrans can figure out a proper tank transition in TvP. I know what people say about any mention of mech in the matchup, but imagine how that firepower and range would change the entire dynamic of the game. Tanks aren't the solution. They just aren't. Thors, on the other hand... EMP'd Thors which block the true most devastating Protoss lategame unit, Chargelots, from having any decent surround, would be amazing. Basically, Ghost + Thor + Viking is an amazing combination. The problem is getting there, because you would need upgrades for all 3 types of weapon/armour. I really think Terran would benefit in every matchup from having more combined upgrades, allowing for better transitions away from bio in general. Too bad thors are going to be gone in HotS. That combo would never be the answer anyway. Too gas-heavy and the transition would necessarily be awkward. Excluding all-ins and 2 base pushes (which is the only real use of a Thor in TvP anyway) the future of TvP will still be bio-based. I still hope the units that will replace the Thor will be useful. IRC it will get bonus damage to air and mechanical units in general smt like that ? Maybe combine them with the new Battle Helions that hopefully don't die in seconds could work , then you could maybe even thrown in some tanks for zoning. I keep my fingers crossed . I pray that Battle Hellions never see the light of day. Faux-Goliaths might be good but the range will still be too short to compensate for Colossi and we'll probably get even more chargelot action in response. Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 07:46 s3rp wrote:
Other then BC's / Air there's nothing to transition to from Bio and only if you upgrade your Vikings . Mech Units aren't a valid transition. There's some funky pushes with Mech but transition into Mech doesn't work. Mech as a playstyle is wholly undesirable in TvP. I don't see how marine/marauder/medivac ---> marine/marauder/medivac/tank is "invalid" (it certainly has weaknesses). Unless HotS completely changes the matchup the army still needs to begin as bio and remain bio-heavy throughout the game.
The problem with mixing in tanks ( other then not beeing able to move in siege mode ofc ) is not only that they do horrible against against Zealots / Archons but the splash to friendly units they will allways deal . This isn't TvZ where tanks will kill a decent amount of Lings before the reach the Bio. And once the Zealots reach the Bio the tanks will crush your own units combined with the Protoss Aoe . If you could target fire them manually everytime ( which you basically can't all the time ) they could have their uses but even 2-3 shots of friendly fire in a Bio Force is does more damage percentage wise then it does to the Zealots. Funny thing though if you have some tanks leftover from some sort of 1-1-1-ish push / build and transition into Bio theyre pretty decent in tank mode against gateway force . They'll die once you stim and kite with the bio but deal pretty good damage before. I wouldn't recommend building them for this purpose since they die alot too fast and cost 125 gas but if you already have some use them unsieged .
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heres a thought: how about massing offensive bunkers when the terran is maxed and banking up minerals?
and upgrading the +1 range for bunker
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I really liked how Parting played. It seems so smart to have 2 robos to be able to get Colossi two at a time, yet never actually relying on them. He would never over-produce them, but still had the ability to get more very fast if all the Vikings died. Just a very smart unit composition and good patience on when to engage. I really can't see any flaws in how he played vs. Jakji.
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Parting has some of the most ridiculous macro I have ever seen...
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On February 08 2012 22:18 Clogon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight.
somewhat recent changes that have affected pvt:
MAJOR:
* EMP ~50% area reduction
* energy bar on thors
* zealot charge no longer slowed by marauders
* archon massive
* archon +1 range
MINOR:
* +1 immortal range (some protoss allins are much better now, and I guess 1/1/1 is easier for protoss to stop)
* ghosts cost from 150/150 -> 200/100 (harder for terran to spend gas late game now)
* protoss cheaper upgrades
* bunker salvage -> 75 minerals
* bunker build time increases
* warp prism HP increase
TvP lategame has been awful for me personally since beta. Before, the culprit was the amulet allowing insta-warp storms. But the role it played in making TvP late game awful has been replaced with chargelot/archon just being too strong as instant reinforcement (the zealots at least, archons take a few seconds to make).
JJakji vs Parting was a great series, no doubt about it. But it was hard to enjoy as a terran player watching JJakji face the same frustrations I have faced for months. In particular, I think the series showcases what's wrong with TvP lategame: even when you exchange overwhelmingly favorably with protoss, the protoss can easily hang in there with instant warpins. But as soon as you get even a slight disadvantage in an exchange (and frankly, it's VERY easy for this to happen) you're just dead as terran because protoss can replenish whatever they lost and attack your expansion(s), recharging energy/shields in the process, while you're trying to build units out of your barracks/starports.
There won't be some sudden innovation that removes the TvP lategame problem. It is an inherent problem with the warpgate mechanic (where, of course, most balance problems in sc2's history have been rooted). There will be a patch, or HOTS, to fix this.
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The sad thing is though, despite the patches as Terran seems to be qqing about, MMMVG is still > Protoss death ball IF both are equally skilled. The Protoss has to have some kind of economic advantage and a clear skill advantage to pull it off.
People crying imba because of a 40 vs 70 worker count in favour of Protoss? The days when 5 mules counter a 60 worker disadvantage is now over folks. Delicious Terran tears though. Now that MVP is eliminated it seems they are so threatened and insecure at a non-terran GSL champion lol. They forgot that the first GSL champ was zerg, the first 2 time champ was a protoss, and the first three time champ was a zerg.
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I love the discussion for TvP, but I feel like it isn't as black and white as it seems. PvT has always been such a fragile match-ups and in my opinion the best to watch due to the nature of the match-up. One single thing can tip the balance into one race's favor, whether in-game and meta-game, seeming to be overpowered like the other. Jjakji lost both series just BARELY each time.
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On February 09 2012 08:13 Tulkas25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 04:12 Horseballs wrote:On February 09 2012 03:59 tdt wrote:
Can't belive terran whine when it's 3 protoss and 3 terran left. I gess they are used to all RO8 being Terran with one token zerg or protoss. Sorry guys blanace is 33/33/33% It isn't based on raw numbers of who is left, it is based on the content of the games played. For instance: I have no issues at all with the metropolis game. Jjakji scouts the quick third, and decides to go for a 2 base ghost all-in to try to kill the protoss before too much splash is on the field. Protoss should have won that game. However, the game on cloud kingdom just seemed ridiculous. Parting forgets charge, a key component to the strategy he is trying to execute. He has his third denied twice - he is forced to cancel each time right after the nexus is over half built. Jjakji has 2-1 or 3-1 (I'll have to go back and look, either way he was ahead of protoss in upgrade) and is putting up a fourth when protoss is finally establishing his third. Parting lets his army get cornered and killed for basically nothing, it is a completely one-sided stomping and jjakji is up by a huge amount of supply... and he can not kill the protoss no matter what he does. Protoss just warps in zealots and cannons and storms all over the equally or better upgraded terran army until he gets his deathball and just one-shots planetaries and kills everything. Jjakji tries, but can't drop because Parting smartly uses cannons and templar to defend his bases. The game on Antiga was under similar circumstances, Jjakji up by a large amount of supply, scans the protoss third while it is being built and sees colossus and templar, and even though he has a much larger army he just freezes because he cannot attack into it. He could risk it and hope storm wasn't done building, but then it is just blind luck if he wins. Later, parting donates his army again, and again he can not be killed. That Jjakji landed his vikings made sense, after all he just CRUSHED through a protoss army supply efficiently, but no - Parting just warped in zealots and spammed storms everywhere and terran could not kill him. The game on Daybreak doesn't even make sense to me, it defies all RTS logic. You cannot rely on statistics and win-rates to make any claim about balance. In the Cloud Kingdom and Antiga games, parting made enormous mistakes, mistakes that if Jjakji had made, would've ended the game instantly. I like your post because one thing is made kinda clear.The fights are not exactly imbalanced between toss vs protoss because if someone knows what he is doing he can negate both colossi and templars with ghosts and vikings.What happens is that if a terran wins the battle really cost efficiently he can't really kill the protoss with ghosts and vikings Cause emp doesnt kill stuff unlike storm and vikings just die to everything ground while colossi roast everything ground.To make it even more clear.12 alive vikings in the end of a battle instead of 2 colossus.What would you choose?What allows you to immediately capitalize on your big battle win.?The answer is obvious.5 Templars Vs 5 ghosts?What a terran is to do with 5 alive ghosts to capitalize on his big battle win go emp the probes and wait to be killed by a warpin of zealots?The Big fights are not the problem imo but the aftermath for terran.It's almost impossible if at all as kinda proven today to come back from a losing position.Protoss has the attacking units with the big splash dmg that in the absent of their counter they insta win the game and even if they are countered they are gonna force responses and awkward unit choices and composition by terran.Some of my thoughts tbh.
Seconding this.
The counter system is poorly designed, and many of the counters favor toss.
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There's been a lot of things that have been perplexing me in regards to Jjakji vs Parting Match 1 Game 1 on Metropolis.
When Parting expands to his third and Jjakji scouts it, why doesn't he pressure ASAP? Was it because he was gearing up for his stim-medivac timing? And was the stim-medivac timing something planned from the start or was he just doing that as a counter to the early third, knowing that Parting won't be able to get an AoE out fast enough to deal with it.
Also how come Parting can take a third AND pressure at the same time? I didn't really take note of his build prior to that, but I assume he was only on 4-6 gates with no real tech (I mean could he really have afforded to tech with the timing of the 2nd expo?). It seems that he found a really really good safe build which put him SOOO far ahead.
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The 200/200 T army CAN beat the P army, even possibly efficiently, it comes down to positioning.
The issue is that with the way people are playing right now, there was no followups. What you CAN'T do is win the fight, and then just push and end the game. The Terran unit composition simply doesn't let you do that. What top players need to figure out is how to abuse a supply advantage to drop somewhere else to wipe out outlying expos before/during/after a big fight.
The 70-40 worker count is only part of the picture. It was inexcusable to have only 40 workers WITHOUT 5+ orbitals to supplement. On the other hand, it clearly demonstrates the point, which is that a Terran army UP by THIRTY food, cannot push into a P after a big fight. Terrans need to learn how to followup in another way.
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On February 09 2012 10:01 architecture wrote:
The 200/200 T army CAN beat the P army, even possibly efficiently, it comes down to positioning.
The issue is that with the way people are playing right now, there was no followups. What you CAN'T do is win the fight, and then just push and end the game. The Terran unit composition simply doesn't let you do that. What top players need to figure out is how to abuse a supply advantage to drop somewhere else to wipe out outlying expos before/during/after a big fight.
The 70-40 worker count is only part of the picture. It was inexcusable to have only 40 workers WITHOUT 5+ orbitals to supplement. On the other hand, it clearly demonstrates the point, which is that a Terran army UP by THIRTY food, cannot push into a P after a big fight. Terrans need to learn how to followup in another way.
You just can't. Warpins mean tosses are completely fine against any counters a terran could do as long as he didn't completely screw up in the fight. If toss trades evenly, or comes out ahead, warpins means he can instantly push his advantage while terrans are still trying to rebuild their units.
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Here's a hypothetical situation (may or may not exist):
First, let's assume that it is impossible for T to push P late from winning a direct fight. Then, the only remaining way to win is to trade armies and starve the P. Imagine TvZ Hive, where T is just constantly sniping outlying expos and trading evenly with the main army. Until Z/P runs out of resources.
Terran cuts SCVs at 45-50, only orbitals from this point on. The extra 20-30 food goes into army. 20-30 food constantly being dropped at outlying expos, to trade against HT and warpins. The main T army assumes defensive position against counterattack. If P fucks up defensive positioning, and draws main army back, T army goes into offensive position and setups to trade against P main army. Rinse and repeat until P is out of money.
The point is that you aren't looking to "win" the main fight, you are looking to just make sure you trade at least evenly. The magic comes from attacking the expos, where you expect the trades to be more greatly in your favor.
What you don't want to do is to concentrate your food together. +20 food doesn't actually help in the main fight for very obvious reasons - there are warpins, AOE's scale better vs more units etc. But +20 food elsewhere on the map, can gain strong positional advantages.
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On February 09 2012 09:59 pdd wrote:
There's been a lot of things that have been perplexing me in regards to Jjakji vs Parting Match 1 Game 1 on Metropolis.
When Parting expands to his third and Jjakji scouts it, why doesn't he pressure ASAP? Was it because he was gearing up for his stim-medivac timing? And was the stim-medivac timing something planned from the start or was he just doing that as a counter to the early third, knowing that Parting won't be able to get an AoE out fast enough to deal with it.
Also how come Parting can take a third AND pressure at the same time? I didn't really take note of his build prior to that, but I assume he was only on 4-6 gates with no real tech (I mean could he really have afforded to tech with the timing of the 2nd expo?). It seems that he found a really really good safe build which put him SOOO far ahead.
You can't move out before medivacs, if you get donut'ed it's basically insta GG, I think that's the reason he didn't pushed early.
And yeah Parting didn't tech at all, I don't remember how many gates he double expanded from (I think it was 3), then quickly added 6 more gates, cut probes to have 16 per mineral line (+2 ? or 4 geysers, I think it was 2), then pressured. Then after the pressure he resumed probe production and teched hard. This is a really nice build, as a lesser player than jjakji would have lost right here imo.
In theory I think there are a few things you can do, like having a medivac full of marines ready to drop, and drop as soon as you see a warpin to ravage a mineral line. That'll put you on equal footing more or less as the pressure will most likely kill a lot of scvs.
The terran can also do the 4 tanks opening, it's often used, you only produce 3-4 tanks (without allining) and that makes you immune to pure gateway pressure. The problem is to not die to the 3 immortals push, but scans exist for something.
Well, at least I think that should work. The sure thing is that Parting's build was beautiful and I have never seen it before.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
All this discussion about the TvP situation right now will be moot in a month or two, just like how it was for everyone's debates during GSL Oct and prior (about unwinnable PvT, etc).
So yeah, have fun with these discussions; I will enjoy how the game changes with time 
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protoss all ins too strong :\
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This thread makes me sad. Instead of enjoying good games people are trying to find excuses for their own loses.
I cannot believe terran players here. You guys are complaining about colossus and templars. Both of these units have hard counters. If you know it is coming you should have vikings and ghosts. ghosts have longer range than templars and instant EMP effect you cannot run away unlike storm (it used to affect a larger area, tooo!!). Vikings have that huge range against colossus. If anything, pvt match-up is still in favor of terran due to early game advantage based on great option pool terran has. Only surprise toss can have a warp gate cheese, that's all.
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these matches were the first time i watched parting play...
he's really really good.
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On February 09 2012 06:40 FuzzyJAM wrote:
MC continues to be the least interesting player in the entire SC2 scene.
Obviously play to win, that's fine for him, but how do people enjoy watching his games?
Yeah that's why his fan club has as many members as nestea and MVP put together. You're in the minority dude.
I'd go as far as to say the only person interestinger is Idra.
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EPT
