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On February 09 2012 08:07 power-overwhelming wrote:
It seems people will only enjoy watching Protoss if there is a no rush 10 min rule. I hope they realize that these greedy nexus/ triple nexus openings won't last a week after Parting abused it. Let's also forget that Ganzi and Jakji are not really tvp experts. Had Polt, Bomber, and MKP been playing tvp in this GSL then those greedy plays would get sent straight to code A.
MC has played since BW and since early sc2 has been the only successful Protoss. If anyone understands Protoss the most, it would be MC. If he thinks his playstyle is suited for champions then that's what I will think. At the end of the day, we all know (even haters) that MC is damn good at macro (macro game vs bomber in code A).
Every build protoss use came from MC and they all bow down to his hiness.
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The sad thing is though, despite the patches as Terran seems to be qqing about, MMMVG is still > Protoss death ball IF both are equally skilled.
Proof?
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On February 09 2012 03:40 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 03:31 Vindicare605 wrote:
Once again just like group B, we have two Terrans who are solid in TvT and excellent in TvZ getting manhandled in TvP.
This is to be expected when you see who they are up against.
Parting, Puzzle, Oz and MC are some of the best PvT players in Korea as evidenced by their advancement to this point. While Ganzi, MMA, Jjajki and Supernova are much better at other match ups.
I wouldn't start the balance whine just yet, we're seeing top level PvT crush over mediocre TvP. Wait until MKP gets a crack at these guys before you start the balance whine. I don't accept that donating armies a several times is top-level PvT. And Jjakji has anything but "mediocre" TvP- he first came onto the scene as a protoss killer. It is very discouraging to see top level TvP games that look like my own TvP games. It is one thing for me to feel like I can't attack a protoss after a certain point, but to see Jjakji, a GSL champion and known excellent TvPer not know what to do vs protoss is just disheartening and makes me dislike the matchup even more.
"to see Jjakji, a GSL champion and known excellent TvPer not know what to do"
Welcome to the world of a protoss for the last almost 9 or so months. Give them time, protoss is discovering a lot of options they didnt know were there, I wouldnt be surprised if terrans start winning again soon.
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Had Polt, Bomber, and MKP been playing tvp in this GSL then those greedy plays would get sent straight to code A.
MKP hasn't played vP in GSL for a while so we don't know. Will get to see him vs Genius tonight so we shall see.. Bomber got knocked out of Code S by Inca. Polt didn't make it out of Nov Up and Down because of lost to Inca.
There just aren't any dominate TvPers right now at the highest level of Code S. In Ro 16, only MMA managed to beat Oz and honestly, if you watched the games, it was more Oz losing then MMA winning. And MMA got crushed by Puzzle in their macro games.
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those were funny game by ganzi 
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I bet terrans will start doing hellion openings to stop protoss from double expanding behind one stalker
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United States15275 Posts
On February 09 2012 12:56 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +Had Polt, Bomber, and MKP been playing tvp in this GSL then those greedy plays would get sent straight to code A. MKP hasn't played vP in GSL for a while so we don't know. Will get to see him vs Genius tonight so we shall see.. Bomber got knocked out of Code S by Inca. Polt didn't make it out of Nov Up and Down because of lost to Inca. There just aren't any dominate TvPers right now at the highest level of Code S. In Ro 16, only MMA managed to beat Oz and honestly, if you watched the games, it was more Oz losing then MMA winning. And MMA got crushed by Puzzle in their macro games.
Polt's defeat was a BO loss, Bomber got outsmarted. Two different things.
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On February 09 2012 12:06 foxmulder_ms wrote:
This thread makes me sad. Instead of enjoying good games people are trying to find excuses for their own loses.
I cannot believe terran players here. You guys are complaining about colossus and templars. Both of these units have hard counters. If you know it is coming you should have vikings and ghosts. ghosts have longer range than templars and instant EMP effect you cannot run away unlike storm (it used to affect a larger area, tooo!!). Vikings have that huge range against colossus. If anything, pvt match-up is still in favor of terran due to early game advantage based on great option pool terran has. Only surprise toss can have a warp gate cheese, that's all.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309840¤tpage=164#3261
The counters to colossi and HTs don't do anything to let terrans take advantage of their lead, while if terran does not have the counters for colossi/HTs out in time, he dies.
The counters are also almost just as expensive as the stuff they're countering. This is not something like 1 immortal being very cost efficient against a bunch of roaches, or 1 marauder absolutely dominating 1 roach. You need 2-3 vikings per colossi (and assuming the toss is actually splitting his units properly, 1 ghost per HT), and once the vikings/ghosts neutralize whatever they're supposed to counter, they sit around and do nothing (or ghosts do some wimpy attack). This is much different than, say, 10 marauders vs 10 roaches, where the remaining marauders still give your army some value.
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I'm gonna just throw this out there as a theorycrafting attempt. In BW there was always the problem in certain matchups in which a certain race was just stronger in the lategame, and there was no whining. This happened because the solution was to prevent the enemy from maxing or reaching lategame compositions that were so hard to stop.
Isn't this a possible approach for terran for the matchup? Most terrans seem to be complaining that lategame protoss armies just cannot be killed, chargelot/archon being too strong. In the midgame, however, protoss is EXTREMELY vulnerable to tech snipes and key building destruction, particularly when terran is playing a marauder heavy composition.
As shown by the now very old Puma TvP style, sniping a Twilight Council/Archives/Forge on a critical timing can mean Protoss just loses, same with instagibbing some gateways with marauders, since the inability to quickly replenish armies will cripple Protoss really badly.
What if terran were to stop allowing Protoss to reach the dreaded Chargelot/Archon composition? Terran is by far the most mobile of all races, it can be pulled off imo. What do you guys think?
BTW, as a protoss player I also HATE this matchup, I just don't like the way it plays out, but I also hate so much balance whining, particularly considering for the longest time Protoss could do nothing vs Terran and the whining wasn't even this severe.
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United States15275 Posts
On February 09 2012 13:12 mordk wrote:
I'm gonna just throw this out there as a theorycrafting attempt. In BW there was always the problem in certain matchups in which a certain race was just stronger in the lategame, and there was no whining. This happened because the solution was to prevent the enemy from maxing or reaching lategame compositions that were so hard to stop.
Isn't this a possible approach for terran for the matchup? Most terrans seem to be complaining that lategame protoss armies just cannot be killed, chargelot/archon being too strong. In the midgame, however, protoss is EXTREMELY vulnerable to tech snipes and key building destruction, particularly when terran is playing a marauder heavy composition.
As shown by the now very old Puma TvP style, sniping a Twilight Council/Archives/Forge on a critical timing can mean Protoss just loses, same with instagibbing some gateways with marauders, since the inability to quickly replenish armies will cripple Protoss really badly.
What if terran were to stop allowing Protoss to reach the dreaded Chargelot/Archon composition? Terran is by far the most mobile of all races, it can be pulled off imo. What do you guys think?
BTW, as a protoss player I also HATE this matchup, I just don't like the way it plays out, but I also hate so much balance whining, particularly considering for the longest time Protoss could do nothing vs Terran and the whining wasn't even this severe.
I believe this is the key turning point in any TvP. You need to make the Protoss work to get that ideal unit composition and force mistakes with careful aggression.
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Isn't this a possible approach for terran for the matchup? Most terrans seem to be complaining that lategame protoss armies just cannot be killed, chargelot/archon being too strong. In the midgame, however, protoss is EXTREMELY vulnerable to tech snipes and key building destruction, particularly when terran is playing a marauder heavy composition.
This is true but I think it is also very map dependent. A lot of people have suggested dropping the Protoss but as you can see in Jjajki's games, he did try dropping but a templar and a couple cannons will deny a drop. Also, a lot of the new maps are much larger and defending 3 bases is a lot easier then before. Also, unlike in TvZ where you can pick up the drop most of the time (unless mutas where you just try to trade), vP, if drop is denied, losing the medivac is more likely. And the medivac count is critically vP
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the only way for terrans to win tvp is to win before the toss gets a deathball
Liek almost every terran that was regarded to have a "good" tvp did some kind of 1 or 2-base all-in that would destroy tosses, because tosses have period of vulnerability before they can get their 3bases up. It's why so many terrans did 1/1/1.
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On February 09 2012 13:12 mordk wrote:
I'm gonna just throw this out there as a theorycrafting attempt. In BW there was always the problem in certain matchups in which a certain race was just stronger in the lategame, and there was no whining. This happened because the solution was to prevent the enemy from maxing or reaching lategame compositions that were so hard to stop.
Isn't this a possible approach for terran for the matchup? Most terrans seem to be complaining that lategame protoss armies just cannot be killed, chargelot/archon being too strong. In the midgame, however, protoss is EXTREMELY vulnerable to tech snipes and key building destruction, particularly when terran is playing a marauder heavy composition.
As shown by the now very old Puma TvP style, sniping a Twilight Council/Archives/Forge on a critical timing can mean Protoss just loses, same with instagibbing some gateways with marauders, since the inability to quickly replenish armies will cripple Protoss really badly.
What if terran were to stop allowing Protoss to reach the dreaded Chargelot/Archon composition? Terran is by far the most mobile of all races, it can be pulled off imo. What do you guys think?
BTW, as a protoss player I also HATE this matchup, I just don't like the way it plays out, but I also hate so much balance whining, particularly considering for the longest time Protoss could do nothing vs Terran and the whining wasn't even this severe.
That's some selective memory you got there. Protoss had an entire thread devoted to crying about how tough it was for you guys.
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Sooner or later Terran will start punishing the 1/2 gate double expo builds.
Part of this is meta-game shifts.
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On February 09 2012 13:24 IMPrime wrote:
the only way for terrans to win tvp is to win before the toss gets a deathball
Liek almost every terran that was regarded to have a "good" tvp did some kind of 1 or 2-base all-in that would destroy tosses, because tosses have period of vulnerability before they can get their 3bases up. It's why so many terrans did 1/1/1.
111 is considered more and more to be a risky build. The top Protoss are getting better and better at scouting for it, and dealing with it properly which is why it has fallen off in popularity. Watch MC's play again and you'll see that he never put down his expo without confirming that the terran was expanding.
Since there is now a good chance that you'll lose with a 111 Terrans are reverting to the macro game. Timings are incredibly hard to hit because the window is based on how greedy or safe the Protoss player is being. How much tech can you grab for at once and still be safe?
Once the game reaches the 4 base vs 4 base situation however Terran is in big trouble because Protoss are using all their resources, while terran are not using their gas.
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On February 09 2012 13:24 IMPrime wrote:
the only way for terrans to win tvp is to win before the toss gets a deathball
Liek almost every terran that was regarded to have a "good" tvp did some kind of 1 or 2-base all-in that would destroy tosses, because tosses have period of vulnerability before they can get their 3bases up. It's why so many terrans did 1/1/1.
Watch this game and reconsider
http://www.youtube.com/user/IGNProLeague#p/c/CD1D2C0D2DB5F496/7/os0ggYkHVvM
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On February 09 2012 13:46 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 13:24 IMPrime wrote:
the only way for terrans to win tvp is to win before the toss gets a deathball
Liek almost every terran that was regarded to have a "good" tvp did some kind of 1 or 2-base all-in that would destroy tosses, because tosses have period of vulnerability before they can get their 3bases up. It's why so many terrans did 1/1/1. 111 is considered more and more to be a risky build. The top Protoss are getting better and better at scouting for it, and dealing with it properly which is why it has fallen off in popularity. Watch MC's play again and you'll see that he never put down his expo without confirming that the terran was expanding. Since there is now a good chance that you'll lose with a 111 Terrans are reverting to the macro game. Timings are incredibly hard to hit because the window is based on how greedy or safe the Protoss player is being. How much tech can you grab for at once and still be safe? Once the game reaches the 4 base vs 4 base situation however Terran is in big trouble because Protoss are using all their resources, while terran are not using their gas.
Only because of long maps. 1/1/1 is just as effective on xelnaga and such.
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On February 09 2012 13:53 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 13:46 Kharnage wrote:On February 09 2012 13:24 IMPrime wrote:
the only way for terrans to win tvp is to win before the toss gets a deathball
Liek almost every terran that was regarded to have a "good" tvp did some kind of 1 or 2-base all-in that would destroy tosses, because tosses have period of vulnerability before they can get their 3bases up. It's why so many terrans did 1/1/1. 111 is considered more and more to be a risky build. The top Protoss are getting better and better at scouting for it, and dealing with it properly which is why it has fallen off in popularity. Watch MC's play again and you'll see that he never put down his expo without confirming that the terran was expanding. Since there is now a good chance that you'll lose with a 111 Terrans are reverting to the macro game. Timings are incredibly hard to hit because the window is based on how greedy or safe the Protoss player is being. How much tech can you grab for at once and still be safe? Once the game reaches the 4 base vs 4 base situation however Terran is in big trouble because Protoss are using all their resources, while terran are not using their gas. Only because of long maps. 1/1/1 is just as effective on xelnaga and such.
I don't think a single pro tournament uses xelnaga anymore...
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On February 09 2012 08:07 power-overwhelming wrote:
It seems people will only enjoy watching Protoss if there is a no rush 10 min rule.
Or just not at all. PvX has always been random and fragile, with either boring all-innish play or boring deathball play. Protoss is simply crap to watch, to play with, and to play against. I'm already missing that stretch of time last year where the Protoss presence in Code S was practically zero, because at least then we got a lot of good TvZs and TvTs to watch. Hell, I'll even take ZvZ anytime over PvX.
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On February 09 2012 13:22 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +Isn't this a possible approach for terran for the matchup? Most terrans seem to be complaining that lategame protoss armies just cannot be killed, chargelot/archon being too strong. In the midgame, however, protoss is EXTREMELY vulnerable to tech snipes and key building destruction, particularly when terran is playing a marauder heavy composition. This is true but I think it is also very map dependent. A lot of people have suggested dropping the Protoss but as you can see in Jjajki's games, he did try dropping but a templar and a couple cannons will deny a drop. Also, a lot of the new maps are much larger and defending 3 bases is a lot easier then before. Also, unlike in TvZ where you can pick up the drop most of the time (unless mutas where you just try to trade), vP, if drop is denied, losing the medivac is more likely. And the medivac count is critically vP
Just saying I think he was talking about before that point, if temps are chilling at every base with cannons im thinking its nearly the lategame.
Also, parting played super cool. The death ball fight happened and then templar plus cannons turned it into a macro game. How awesome? Completely.
Terrans have to learn to abuse the toss positionally really hard. How? Watch the game jjakji won.
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EPT
