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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On January 20 2012 06:09 kittensrcute wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:07 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 06:03 Elefanto wrote:On January 20 2012 05:58 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 05:56 YMCApylons wrote:
what the hell was that zenio? Are you trying a settle a bet with your manager than you can beat foreigners without broodlords? I'm actually pretty confused here, I kinda thought it was pretty clear that you can't really win with broodlords on Tal'Darim... Not in that situation. He completely missed his Hive transition timing. He had Nightend contained on 3 bases for so long, if he sieges Nightend 3 bases with BL / Infestor before Nightend can break out and take a 4th or 5th he wins. It was just bad. That's the difficulty with going mutas, it takes a while to transition out of them. NightEnD wasn't really contained, he never even tried to move out, because he knew he didn't need to. All he needed to do was make it to 200/200, and that Zenio's hive transition would be difficult because he went mutas. His harass with the warp prism wasn't stellar at first, but it did the job, and gave NightEnD enough time to assert himself. Zenio didn't have a huge opportunity to go broodlords, if he had, he would've needed to morph them back home, lose two bases, and then find some way to push across the map really slowly. Zenio was also banking 3k minerals/gas which isn't very ideal.
Well, when you're maxed....
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On January 20 2012 06:09 McFeser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:09 Bashion wrote:On January 20 2012 06:07 Fragile51 wrote:On January 20 2012 06:06 ceaRshaf wrote:
MC is blamed cause he goes for 2 bases, Nigtend cause he goes for 3 bases. Any protoss bids more out there? NaNi gets blamed for going one base or two base! Other protoss players need to step it up :p Hero always goes for at least 4 bases. Hongun goes for three bases without taking his third.
Goes well with the triple forge, need dat chrono.
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Northern Ireland27202 Posts
On January 20 2012 06:09 Bashion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:07 Fragile51 wrote:On January 20 2012 06:06 ceaRshaf wrote:
MC is blamed cause he goes for 2 bases, Nigtend cause he goes for 3 bases. Any protoss bids more out there? NaNi gets blamed for going one base or two base! Other protoss players need to step it up :p Hero always goes for at least 4 bases.
He's not going for 4 base plays in general, but replacing his bases as they run out of minerals, there's a difference. Protoss doesn't really gain an advantage in going more than 3 bases, it delays pushes, makes it harder to pressure and it is harder to defend when you spread out a lot.
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On January 20 2012 06:10 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:09 kittensrcute wrote:On January 20 2012 06:07 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 06:03 Elefanto wrote:On January 20 2012 05:58 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 05:56 YMCApylons wrote:
what the hell was that zenio? Are you trying a settle a bet with your manager than you can beat foreigners without broodlords? I'm actually pretty confused here, I kinda thought it was pretty clear that you can't really win with broodlords on Tal'Darim... Not in that situation. He completely missed his Hive transition timing. He had Nightend contained on 3 bases for so long, if he sieges Nightend 3 bases with BL / Infestor before Nightend can break out and take a 4th or 5th he wins. It was just bad. That's the difficulty with going mutas, it takes a while to transition out of them. NightEnD wasn't really contained, he never even tried to move out, because he knew he didn't need to. All he needed to do was make it to 200/200, and that Zenio's hive transition would be difficult because he went mutas. His harass with the warp prism wasn't stellar at first, but it did the job, and gave NightEnD enough time to assert himself. Zenio didn't have a huge opportunity to go broodlords, if he had, he would've needed to morph them back home, lose two bases, and then find some way to push across the map really slowly. Zenio was also banking 3k minerals/gas which isn't very ideal. Well, when you're maxed....
He had them with his 100 supply at the end of the game, either he was just baffled that Nightend just rolled over him or his poor larvae were all dead.
Edit: I guess at that point the game is nearly over because of the deathball, but that engagement was pretty awful with a far from ideal unit composition. He definitely should have freed up some supply earlier to allow for a tech transition.
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On January 20 2012 06:10 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:09 kittensrcute wrote:On January 20 2012 06:07 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 06:03 Elefanto wrote:On January 20 2012 05:58 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 05:56 YMCApylons wrote:
what the hell was that zenio? Are you trying a settle a bet with your manager than you can beat foreigners without broodlords? I'm actually pretty confused here, I kinda thought it was pretty clear that you can't really win with broodlords on Tal'Darim... Not in that situation. He completely missed his Hive transition timing. He had Nightend contained on 3 bases for so long, if he sieges Nightend 3 bases with BL / Infestor before Nightend can break out and take a 4th or 5th he wins. It was just bad. That's the difficulty with going mutas, it takes a while to transition out of them. NightEnD wasn't really contained, he never even tried to move out, because he knew he didn't need to. All he needed to do was make it to 200/200, and that Zenio's hive transition would be difficult because he went mutas. His harass with the warp prism wasn't stellar at first, but it did the job, and gave NightEnD enough time to assert himself. Zenio didn't have a huge opportunity to go broodlords, if he had, he would've needed to morph them back home, lose two bases, and then find some way to push across the map really slowly. Zenio was also banking 3k minerals/gas which isn't very ideal. Well, when you're maxed....
He wasn't even maxed i believe?
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On January 20 2012 06:02 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:00 TheHova wrote:On January 20 2012 05:56 tree.hugger wrote:
Tal'Darim late game is so difficult for zerg, you want to go broodlords, but you know you'll get torn apart, so you're forced into dumb units like ultralisks. NightEnD did well to just never attack, because he knew Zenio had no hive tech options on the first set map... T_T Why would broodlords be torn apart? Broodlord Corruptor Infestor can only be countered with a mothership and archons really. And if you split your units you can still win. You can't ever split your army, and Tal'Darim is so wide open in the midmap that protoss can pick a better spot to engage. You move out with the broodlords, and all your expansions die to harass and blink stalkers dance all around sniping your broodlords.
Yes you can. Ofcourse you can. I've seen plenty of pros do it when they know a mothership is on the field. Or to put their broodlords on hold position. Dimaga does it a lot. Nightend did not even have a stargate nevermind a fleat beacon/mothership anyway. He had him completely contained on 3 bases and he was struggling for money. His main was mined out. Zenio had a ridiculous drone count and bases everywhere. What is Nightend going to do if Zenio goes Broodlord? Nothing really. Base trade at best and if Zenio puts down a billion spines he's not winning that either. He didn't have the economy or time for mothership. Stalkers on their own just don't cut it when he has infestors (which he did) and the archons are never going to get to the broods because there's no mothership. It's not even like he didn't have the greater spire. He had it and just never even attempted to use it.
Zenio instead built Ultras.
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Btw. such a smart opening from Nightend, gives no info to Zenio so forcing him to over react with defense and units!
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who advanced from group a?
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On January 20 2012 06:13 mTwTT1 wrote:
who advanced from group a?
nani, ra
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http://www.sk-gaming.com/video/413184-IEM_6_Kiev_RotterdaM_on_all_4_groups
Rotterdam: "The admins thought Naniwa was complaining about the same networking lag that everyone else had but that Nani's computer was different. Naniwa's computer had 4 second lag spikes and was completely different from all the player's lag spikes. The computer was completely unplayable and if I was a player I wouldn't play anymore either."
NANIWA HATERS GOT OUTPLAYED!
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On January 20 2012 06:13 mTwTT1 wrote:
who advanced from group a?
Naniwa and WhiteRa.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On January 20 2012 06:11 kittensrcute wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:10 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 06:09 kittensrcute wrote:On January 20 2012 06:07 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 06:03 Elefanto wrote:On January 20 2012 05:58 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 05:56 YMCApylons wrote:
what the hell was that zenio? Are you trying a settle a bet with your manager than you can beat foreigners without broodlords? I'm actually pretty confused here, I kinda thought it was pretty clear that you can't really win with broodlords on Tal'Darim... Not in that situation. He completely missed his Hive transition timing. He had Nightend contained on 3 bases for so long, if he sieges Nightend 3 bases with BL / Infestor before Nightend can break out and take a 4th or 5th he wins. It was just bad. That's the difficulty with going mutas, it takes a while to transition out of them. NightEnD wasn't really contained, he never even tried to move out, because he knew he didn't need to. All he needed to do was make it to 200/200, and that Zenio's hive transition would be difficult because he went mutas. His harass with the warp prism wasn't stellar at first, but it did the job, and gave NightEnD enough time to assert himself. Zenio didn't have a huge opportunity to go broodlords, if he had, he would've needed to morph them back home, lose two bases, and then find some way to push across the map really slowly. Zenio was also banking 3k minerals/gas which isn't very ideal. Well, when you're maxed.... He had them with his 100 supply at the end of the game, either he was just baffled that Nightend just rolled over him or his poor larvae were all dead. Edit: I guess at that point the game is nearly over because of the deathball, but that engagement was pretty awful with a far from ideal unit composition. He definitely should have freed up some supply earlier to allow for a tech transition.
A tech transition to what exactly? At that point, he doesn't have enough hatcheries to compete; he tried to fight with a more mobile hive force, it didn't work, he tried again, it didn't work, and then it's over, nothing to do there.
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Infestors should shut this down
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On January 20 2012 06:15 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:11 kittensrcute wrote:On January 20 2012 06:10 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 06:09 kittensrcute wrote:On January 20 2012 06:07 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 06:03 Elefanto wrote:On January 20 2012 05:58 tree.hugger wrote:On January 20 2012 05:56 YMCApylons wrote:
what the hell was that zenio? Are you trying a settle a bet with your manager than you can beat foreigners without broodlords? I'm actually pretty confused here, I kinda thought it was pretty clear that you can't really win with broodlords on Tal'Darim... Not in that situation. He completely missed his Hive transition timing. He had Nightend contained on 3 bases for so long, if he sieges Nightend 3 bases with BL / Infestor before Nightend can break out and take a 4th or 5th he wins. It was just bad. That's the difficulty with going mutas, it takes a while to transition out of them. NightEnD wasn't really contained, he never even tried to move out, because he knew he didn't need to. All he needed to do was make it to 200/200, and that Zenio's hive transition would be difficult because he went mutas. His harass with the warp prism wasn't stellar at first, but it did the job, and gave NightEnD enough time to assert himself. Zenio didn't have a huge opportunity to go broodlords, if he had, he would've needed to morph them back home, lose two bases, and then find some way to push across the map really slowly. Zenio was also banking 3k minerals/gas which isn't very ideal. Well, when you're maxed.... He had them with his 100 supply at the end of the game, either he was just baffled that Nightend just rolled over him or his poor larvae were all dead. Edit: I guess at that point the game is nearly over because of the deathball, but that engagement was pretty awful with a far from ideal unit composition. He definitely should have freed up some supply earlier to allow for a tech transition. A tech transition to what exactly? At that point, he doesn't have enough hatcheries to compete; he tried to fight with a more mobile hive force, it didn't work, he tried again, it didn't work, and then it's over, nothing to do there.
He had the hatcherys and economy for one last remax actually, he had arround 4-5 hatcherys and a lot of minerals/gas floating.
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Northern Ireland27202 Posts
Damnit Nightend, smart opening and some good mindgames, but he's going to miss his timing window.
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jesus nightend just do 2 base push...
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United States15275 Posts
On January 20 2012 06:05 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:00 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 20 2012 05:59 Elem wrote:On January 20 2012 05:58 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 20 2012 05:56 s3rp wrote:
Zenio upgrades 3-0 Air Attack AND had a greater Spire ( and another Spire for Upgrades ) but decided to build Ultras against Protoss something i have never seen working in that MU. It works, except you need Infestor support and a good surround with lings and banelings. Zenio never even bothered to do both. If you have infestors and a good surround with lings/blings you don't really need the ultras ~_~ If you don't get the ultras then you always run the risk of getting FFed and heavily stormed. Ling/bling is also really bad against the colossus/archon combo Nightend was going for. The ultras serve as the damage tanks in that unit composition. He had so many of them they no longer function as tanks and more or less had been the builk of his army.
Like I said, Zenio played the composition all wrong. You really don't want that many ultras in your army because their hitboxes + pathing severely limit the amount of damage they do when they are clumped together. The main bulk should be ling/bling with a significant number of infestors to chain-fungal the enemy army. Zenio just doesn't know how to play optimal ZvP.
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EPT
