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On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. They have 2 elite players, the rest are all mediocre. MMA's playstyle won't work against Stephano's style. That leaves Ganzi as the only player truly favored against Stephano.
How the fuck do you "hate" either of them? LOL did they not sign your autograph at MLG or something haha what is wrong with you.
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On November 16 2011 13:19 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:09 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Explain to me your reasoning then? He beat MMA in online qualifiers, and then later thestc (code A)+lucky (code B?). (maybe one or two more code a players I'm forgetting here) Since then, thestc has beat him and then he's lost to boxer. I think he beat Tails (code B?) as well. I don't know where people are getting the notion that he can suddenly steam roll code S level players. edit: Just because you dislike Slayers does not mean they are not the no.1/no.2 team right now I know all that. I use these same results when Stephano fanatics get too annoying. Lol #1/#2 team. They were exposed in the most recent GSTL. B teamers from any Korean team could have all-killed Acer and Atn. Their wins in GSTL2 and 3 were on MMA's shoulders. Ganzi has since become an elite player but the rest are middle of the road players not substantially different than the ones Stephano beat in IPL3.
Your hate for SlayerS is fascinating. I can't believe someone would actually be an anti-fan of an entire team of players.
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United States15275 Posts
If Millenium wants to win, Adelscott and Stephano will have to be the anchors, particularly Stephano since he has the ZvT skills to deal with the SlayerS Terrans. But honestly there is so much depth to Slayers that it might not even matter. If they manage to beat the first guy (Golden, Crank, Lots, Dragon) then they only have to deal with a bazillion other talented players, all with the necessary expertise to be snipers. If Adelscott wins then he might have to face Taeja; if Stephano wins then he can say hello to Ganzi or MMA.
There's just too many players that Slayers can mix and match, and enough talent to still score all-kills on the less stacked teams. Someone get HoSeo, IM, or EG in here.
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On November 16 2011 13:15 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:09 Bagration wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Why hate on Slayers? They are arguably the best SC2 team right now, with a solid roster, led by an icon of Esports and coached by a charismatic community figure. For Slayers, it is simple: Snipe Stephano, which admittedly will be harder now that Coca is gone. Edit: Well, I guess to each their own opinion then. Fair enough Coca has not left slayers. He just cant play in GSL.
I doubt they'll be fielding him any time soon anyway. The "incident" is way too fresh for that.
5-2 SlayerS, unless all of their top players are not participating. I don't consider MMA necessary, but they may need at least Ryung, Taeja, or Ganzi. I would love to see Alicia, Sleep, Frozen, or other non T's on SlayerS.
I'm also quite interested to see Adelscott, particularly if he still plays the way he beat Mvp in TSL3, with nexus first, etc. Stephano is #1 threat, of course.
Not related but important: Nada is streaming.
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On November 16 2011 13:29 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:15 lee365 wrote:On November 16 2011 13:09 Bagration wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Why hate on Slayers? They are arguably the best SC2 team right now, with a solid roster, led by an icon of Esports and coached by a charismatic community figure. For Slayers, it is simple: Snipe Stephano, which admittedly will be harder now that Coca is gone. Edit: Well, I guess to each their own opinion then. Fair enough Coca has not left slayers. He just cant play in GSL. I doubt they'll be fielding him any time soon anyway. The "incident" is way too fresh for that. 5-2 SlayerS, unless all of their top players are not participating. I don't consider MMA necessary, but they may need at least Ryung, Taeja, or Ganzi. I would love to see Alicia, Sleep, Frozen, or other non T's on SlayerS. I'm also quite interested to see Adelscott, particularly if he still plays the way he beat Mvp in TSL3, with nexus first, etc. Stephano is #1 threat, of course. Not related but important: Nada is streaming.
Seeing Nada and Polt get fewer viewers than CatZ is a pain.
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On November 16 2011 13:13 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. At first I thought there's something wrong with my eyes. No. Just no.
I got this response a lot too when I predicted Sheth beating Ryung. Didn't mean I was wrong.
On November 16 2011 13:24 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. They have 2 elite players, the rest are all mediocre. MMA's playstyle won't work against Stephano's style. That leaves Ganzi as the only player truly favored against Stephano. How the fuck do you "hate" either of them? LOL did they not sign your autograph at MLG or something haha what is wrong with you.
'Hater' as in the way kids in the suburbs use 'hater' i.e anyone who dares go against popular opinion. I'm not plotting to kill them or anything :/ I've never even met any of these people in real life.
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On November 16 2011 13:07 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY der panzer general is the best terran in europe anyone would be honored to lose to him also stephano only wins through having a unique playstyle; STC raped him once he figured him out, i'm sure slayers will have no problem figuring him out either
stc beating him doesnt follow from stephano being predictable. stc is a strong korean terran, losing to him doesnt say anything about your own skill.
i agree people saying only ganzi can beat stephano are flat out wrong, but that doesnt qualify saying stuff like stephano is a 1 trick pony.
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On November 16 2011 13:25 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:19 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:09 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Explain to me your reasoning then? He beat MMA in online qualifiers, and then later thestc (code A)+lucky (code B?). (maybe one or two more code a players I'm forgetting here) Since then, thestc has beat him and then he's lost to boxer. I think he beat Tails (code B?) as well. I don't know where people are getting the notion that he can suddenly steam roll code S level players. edit: Just because you dislike Slayers does not mean they are not the no.1/no.2 team right now I know all that. I use these same results when Stephano fanatics get too annoying. Lol #1/#2 team. They were exposed in the most recent GSTL. B teamers from any Korean team could have all-killed Acer and Atn. Their wins in GSTL2 and 3 were on MMA's shoulders. Ganzi has since become an elite player but the rest are middle of the road players not substantially different than the ones Stephano beat in IPL3. Your hate for SlayerS is fascinating. I can't believe someone would actually be an anti-fan of an entire team of players.
If anything, what he said about them having 2 elite players and a ton of mediocre players is more fascinating, because I cannot see where he's coming from at all. I wonder what his metric is for differentiating an elite player from a mediocre one? MMA and Ganzi aside, Ryung, Puzzle, Taeja, and, until recently, CoCa, are all Code S players and have all pulled their own weight among the best in the Korean scene. Taeja has been dominating the Korean weeklies, as the only player with 6 first-place finishes in those small tournaments (other players only have at most 1 first-place finish), while Puzzle won Code A without dropping a set until the finals, while Ryung and CoCa have just shown fairly strong performances all-around.
The GSTL2 win on MMA's shoulders? He must be forgetting that Alicia got Slayers 3 kills right from the start in the final match against IM, putting them way ahead (and importantly so, since it took Ryung, Ganzi, and MMA to finally take down MVP - and let's not forget Ryung's crucial role in shifting the momentum of the match in the game against Yonghwa, and wearing down MVP in a long, exhausting, well-fought macro game). He underplays the role the rest of SlayerS played in their GSTL championships, which I honestly find highly unfair and short-sighted - just because MMA played the role of the ace doesn't mean the other team didn't do anything.
Sure, red4ce may be of the opinion that SlayerS is a crappy team, but his reasons for thinking so are very badly supported, if they have any sort of truth to them at all. I fully admit that I am a SlayerS fan, but my convictions aside, the arguments he makes in support of his opinion are objectively terrible. If he can elaborate on his statements to perhaps clear up ambiguities that caused me to misinterpret them, then I fully welcome that, but as things stand now, I see no validity in any of his reasons for disliking SlayerS.
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On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. They have 2 elite players, the rest are all mediocre. MMA's playstyle won't work against Stephano's style. That leaves Ganzi as the only player truly favored against Stephano.
You could say that about every single team in SC2.
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On November 16 2011 13:47 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:25 babylon wrote:On November 16 2011 13:19 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:09 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Explain to me your reasoning then? He beat MMA in online qualifiers, and then later thestc (code A)+lucky (code B?). (maybe one or two more code a players I'm forgetting here) Since then, thestc has beat him and then he's lost to boxer. I think he beat Tails (code B?) as well. I don't know where people are getting the notion that he can suddenly steam roll code S level players. edit: Just because you dislike Slayers does not mean they are not the no.1/no.2 team right now I know all that. I use these same results when Stephano fanatics get too annoying. Lol #1/#2 team. They were exposed in the most recent GSTL. B teamers from any Korean team could have all-killed Acer and Atn. Their wins in GSTL2 and 3 were on MMA's shoulders. Ganzi has since become an elite player but the rest are middle of the road players not substantially different than the ones Stephano beat in IPL3. Your hate for SlayerS is fascinating. I can't believe someone would actually be an anti-fan of an entire team of players. If anything, what he said about them having 2 elite players and a ton of mediocre players is more fascinating, because I cannot see where he's coming from at all. I wonder what his metric is for differentiating an elite player from a mediocre one? MMA and Ganzi aside, Ryung, Puzzle, Taeja, and, until recently, CoCa, are all Code S players and have all pulled their own weight among the best in the Korean scene. Taeja has been dominating the Korean weeklies, as the only player with 6 first-place finishes in those small tournaments (other players only have at most 1 first-place finish), while Puzzle won Code A without dropping a set until the finals, while Ryung and CoCa have just shown fairly strong performances all-around. The GSTL2 win on MMA's shoulders? He must be forgetting that Alicia got Slayers 3 kills right from the start in the final match against IM, putting them way ahead (and importantly so, since it took Ryung, Ganzi, and MMA to finally take down MVP - and let's not forget Ryung's crucial role in shifting the momentum of the match in the game against Yonghwa, and wearing down MVP in a long, exhausting, well-fought macro game). He underplays the role the rest of SlayerS played in their GSTL championships, which I honestly find highly unfair and short-sighted - just because MMA played the role of the ace doesn't mean the other team didn't do anything. Sure, red4ce may be of the opinion that SlayerS is a crappy team, but his reasons for thinking so are very badly supported, if they have any sort of truth to them at all. I fully admit that I am a SlayerS fan, but my convictions aside, the arguments he makes in support of his opinion are objectively terrible. If he can elaborate on his statements to perhaps clear up ambiguities that caused me to misinterpret them, then I fully welcome that, but as things stand now, I see no validity in any of his reasons for disliking SlayerS.
It seems I've thrown this thread way too far off course and I apologize for that. You think SlayerS is good, I don't. You like SlayerS, I don't. I don't care why you like Slayers and you shouldn't care why I dislike SlayerS.
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On November 16 2011 13:50 ItsMeDomLee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. They have 2 elite players, the rest are all mediocre. MMA's playstyle won't work against Stephano's style. That leaves Ganzi as the only player truly favored against Stephano. You could say that about every single team in SC2.
You could say that about every team in SC2 except Slayers.
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On November 16 2011 13:50 ItsMeDomLee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. They have 2 elite players, the rest are all mediocre. MMA's playstyle won't work against Stephano's style. That leaves Ganzi as the only player truly favored against Stephano. You could say that about every single team in SC2.
Team Grubby disagrees with you! 
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On November 16 2011 13:59 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:47 HolyArrow wrote:On November 16 2011 13:25 babylon wrote:On November 16 2011 13:19 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:09 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Explain to me your reasoning then? He beat MMA in online qualifiers, and then later thestc (code A)+lucky (code B?). (maybe one or two more code a players I'm forgetting here) Since then, thestc has beat him and then he's lost to boxer. I think he beat Tails (code B?) as well. I don't know where people are getting the notion that he can suddenly steam roll code S level players. edit: Just because you dislike Slayers does not mean they are not the no.1/no.2 team right now I know all that. I use these same results when Stephano fanatics get too annoying. Lol #1/#2 team. They were exposed in the most recent GSTL. B teamers from any Korean team could have all-killed Acer and Atn. Their wins in GSTL2 and 3 were on MMA's shoulders. Ganzi has since become an elite player but the rest are middle of the road players not substantially different than the ones Stephano beat in IPL3. Your hate for SlayerS is fascinating. I can't believe someone would actually be an anti-fan of an entire team of players. If anything, what he said about them having 2 elite players and a ton of mediocre players is more fascinating, because I cannot see where he's coming from at all. I wonder what his metric is for differentiating an elite player from a mediocre one? MMA and Ganzi aside, Ryung, Puzzle, Taeja, and, until recently, CoCa, are all Code S players and have all pulled their own weight among the best in the Korean scene. Taeja has been dominating the Korean weeklies, as the only player with 6 first-place finishes in those small tournaments (other players only have at most 1 first-place finish), while Puzzle won Code A without dropping a set until the finals, while Ryung and CoCa have just shown fairly strong performances all-around. The GSTL2 win on MMA's shoulders? He must be forgetting that Alicia got Slayers 3 kills right from the start in the final match against IM, putting them way ahead (and importantly so, since it took Ryung, Ganzi, and MMA to finally take down MVP - and let's not forget Ryung's crucial role in shifting the momentum of the match in the game against Yonghwa, and wearing down MVP in a long, exhausting, well-fought macro game). He underplays the role the rest of SlayerS played in their GSTL championships, which I honestly find highly unfair and short-sighted - just because MMA played the role of the ace doesn't mean the other team didn't do anything. Sure, red4ce may be of the opinion that SlayerS is a crappy team, but his reasons for thinking so are very badly supported, if they have any sort of truth to them at all. I fully admit that I am a SlayerS fan, but my convictions aside, the arguments he makes in support of his opinion are objectively terrible. If he can elaborate on his statements to perhaps clear up ambiguities that caused me to misinterpret them, then I fully welcome that, but as things stand now, I see no validity in any of his reasons for disliking SlayerS. It seems I've thrown this thread way too far off course and I apologize for that. You think SlayerS is good, I don't. You like SlayerS, I don't. I don't care why you like Slayers and you shouldn't care why I dislike SlayerS.
Well when you make hate-ish posts every time you get the opportunity, people tend to notice and care.
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On November 16 2011 13:59 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:47 HolyArrow wrote:On November 16 2011 13:25 babylon wrote:On November 16 2011 13:19 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:09 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Explain to me your reasoning then? He beat MMA in online qualifiers, and then later thestc (code A)+lucky (code B?). (maybe one or two more code a players I'm forgetting here) Since then, thestc has beat him and then he's lost to boxer. I think he beat Tails (code B?) as well. I don't know where people are getting the notion that he can suddenly steam roll code S level players. edit: Just because you dislike Slayers does not mean they are not the no.1/no.2 team right now I know all that. I use these same results when Stephano fanatics get too annoying. Lol #1/#2 team. They were exposed in the most recent GSTL. B teamers from any Korean team could have all-killed Acer and Atn. Their wins in GSTL2 and 3 were on MMA's shoulders. Ganzi has since become an elite player but the rest are middle of the road players not substantially different than the ones Stephano beat in IPL3. Your hate for SlayerS is fascinating. I can't believe someone would actually be an anti-fan of an entire team of players. If anything, what he said about them having 2 elite players and a ton of mediocre players is more fascinating, because I cannot see where he's coming from at all. I wonder what his metric is for differentiating an elite player from a mediocre one? MMA and Ganzi aside, Ryung, Puzzle, Taeja, and, until recently, CoCa, are all Code S players and have all pulled their own weight among the best in the Korean scene. Taeja has been dominating the Korean weeklies, as the only player with 6 first-place finishes in those small tournaments (other players only have at most 1 first-place finish), while Puzzle won Code A without dropping a set until the finals, while Ryung and CoCa have just shown fairly strong performances all-around. The GSTL2 win on MMA's shoulders? He must be forgetting that Alicia got Slayers 3 kills right from the start in the final match against IM, putting them way ahead (and importantly so, since it took Ryung, Ganzi, and MMA to finally take down MVP - and let's not forget Ryung's crucial role in shifting the momentum of the match in the game against Yonghwa, and wearing down MVP in a long, exhausting, well-fought macro game). He underplays the role the rest of SlayerS played in their GSTL championships, which I honestly find highly unfair and short-sighted - just because MMA played the role of the ace doesn't mean the other team didn't do anything. Sure, red4ce may be of the opinion that SlayerS is a crappy team, but his reasons for thinking so are very badly supported, if they have any sort of truth to them at all. I fully admit that I am a SlayerS fan, but my convictions aside, the arguments he makes in support of his opinion are objectively terrible. If he can elaborate on his statements to perhaps clear up ambiguities that caused me to misinterpret them, then I fully welcome that, but as things stand now, I see no validity in any of his reasons for disliking SlayerS. It seems I've thrown this thread way too far off course and I apologize for that. You think SlayerS is good, I don't. You like SlayerS, I don't. I don't care why you like Slayers and you shouldn't care why I dislike SlayerS.
It's easy to fall back on some sort of statement like "That's my opinion, you have yours, let's just keep it at that" when you get the points supporting your opinion picked at. The problem is that your reasons for disliking SlayerS basically boiled down to "Everyone is mediocre except MMA and Ganzi, and MMA carried them to victory in GSTL 2 and 3". Meanwhile, as you say that, SlayerS has the most players in Code S out of any other team (or close to that, IIRC), while I can easily cite examples as I did before of Alicia and Ryung pulling plenty of weight in GSTL 2 (and, if I were to go back to GSTL 3, I could definitely find other examples - for example, I recall Taeja getting an all-kill, which is inarguably a big contribution to the team's GSTL progress). Basically, I can take all your reasons for disliking SlayerS and come up with counterexamples, and even if you back up and say "Ok, but that's just my opinion", that doesn't really work, because your opinion is predicated upon all those reasons that I just countered, which is why I invited you to elaborate (even in a PM, but I suspect that you're just not interested enough to keep up this discussion, though I'm certainly open to it).
Now, if you said something truly subjective, like "I dislike the personalities of various players of theirs from various interviews I've read from them", then fine - I can't argue with that. But instead, you choose to try to discuss the abilities of their players, and since GSTL/Code A/S results and standings readily exist to provide some objective insight into a discussion about player ability, your opinion becomes much more vulnerable.
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I dont think Stephano can all Kill SlayerS so SlayerS win.
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On November 16 2011 14:16 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:59 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:47 HolyArrow wrote:On November 16 2011 13:25 babylon wrote:On November 16 2011 13:19 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:09 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Explain to me your reasoning then? He beat MMA in online qualifiers, and then later thestc (code A)+lucky (code B?). (maybe one or two more code a players I'm forgetting here) Since then, thestc has beat him and then he's lost to boxer. I think he beat Tails (code B?) as well. I don't know where people are getting the notion that he can suddenly steam roll code S level players. edit: Just because you dislike Slayers does not mean they are not the no.1/no.2 team right now I know all that. I use these same results when Stephano fanatics get too annoying. Lol #1/#2 team. They were exposed in the most recent GSTL. B teamers from any Korean team could have all-killed Acer and Atn. Their wins in GSTL2 and 3 were on MMA's shoulders. Ganzi has since become an elite player but the rest are middle of the road players not substantially different than the ones Stephano beat in IPL3. Your hate for SlayerS is fascinating. I can't believe someone would actually be an anti-fan of an entire team of players. If anything, what he said about them having 2 elite players and a ton of mediocre players is more fascinating, because I cannot see where he's coming from at all. I wonder what his metric is for differentiating an elite player from a mediocre one? MMA and Ganzi aside, Ryung, Puzzle, Taeja, and, until recently, CoCa, are all Code S players and have all pulled their own weight among the best in the Korean scene. Taeja has been dominating the Korean weeklies, as the only player with 6 first-place finishes in those small tournaments (other players only have at most 1 first-place finish), while Puzzle won Code A without dropping a set until the finals, while Ryung and CoCa have just shown fairly strong performances all-around. The GSTL2 win on MMA's shoulders? He must be forgetting that Alicia got Slayers 3 kills right from the start in the final match against IM, putting them way ahead (and importantly so, since it took Ryung, Ganzi, and MMA to finally take down MVP - and let's not forget Ryung's crucial role in shifting the momentum of the match in the game against Yonghwa, and wearing down MVP in a long, exhausting, well-fought macro game). He underplays the role the rest of SlayerS played in their GSTL championships, which I honestly find highly unfair and short-sighted - just because MMA played the role of the ace doesn't mean the other team didn't do anything. Sure, red4ce may be of the opinion that SlayerS is a crappy team, but his reasons for thinking so are very badly supported, if they have any sort of truth to them at all. I fully admit that I am a SlayerS fan, but my convictions aside, the arguments he makes in support of his opinion are objectively terrible. If he can elaborate on his statements to perhaps clear up ambiguities that caused me to misinterpret them, then I fully welcome that, but as things stand now, I see no validity in any of his reasons for disliking SlayerS. It seems I've thrown this thread way too far off course and I apologize for that. You think SlayerS is good, I don't. You like SlayerS, I don't. I don't care why you like Slayers and you shouldn't care why I dislike SlayerS. It's easy to fall back on some sort of statement like "That's my opinion, you have yours, let's just keep it at that" when you get the points supported your opinion picked at. The problem is that your reasons for disliking SlayerS basically boiled down to "Everyone is mediocre except MMA and Ganzi, and MMA carried them to victory in GSTL 2 and 3". Meanwhile, as you say that, SlayerS has the most players in Code S out of any other team (or close to that, IIRC), while I can easily cite examples as I did before of Alicia and Ryung pulling plenty of weight in GSTL 2 (and, if I were to go back to GSTL 3, I could definitely find other examples - for example, I recall Taeja getting an all-kill, which is inarguably a big contribution to the team's GSTL progress). Basically, I can take all your reasons for disliking SlayerS and come up with counterexamples, and even if you back up and say "Ok, but that's just my opinion", that doesn't really work, because your opinion is predicated upon all those reasons that I just countered, which is why I invited you to elaborate (even in a PM, but I suspect that you're just not interested enough to keep up this discussion, though I'm certainly open to it). Now, if you said something truly subjective, like "I dislike the personalities of various players of theirs from various interviews I've read from them", then fine - I can't argue with that. But instead, you choose to try to discuss the abilities of their players, and since GSTL/Code A/S results and standings readily exist to provide some objective insight into a discussion about player ability, your opinion becomes much more vulnerable.
Alright fine. First, let's be clear. My dislike for SlayerS is different from my view of them as an overrated team. I won't get into why I dislike SlayerS because nobody should give a damn. I offered my opinion of SlayerS as a mediocre team as my justification for predicting Stephano doing well in this showmatch. As we saw in the GSTL top foreigners can hold their own against your average Korean in a winner's league format. If you wanna debate the strength of SlayerS as a team, then let's get it on.
MMA and Ganzi: Great players. I've already acknowledged this.
Taeja: I put very little stock in online competitions. I believe in SC2 as an e-sport and thus live competition is the ultimate measure of strength. Online tournaments only measure potential; how good a player could be in ideal circumstances. Taeja still hasn't made it out of group stages in code S. That's all that matters to me.
Ryung: Good at TvT, mediocre at everything else. If Sheth can beat this guy 5-2 imagine what Stephano will do.
Alicia: Was good. Not anymore
Puzzle: Better than Alicia, but still falls under the same category.
(note that I would predict Stephano to beat any protoss in the world right now. I'd go further into detail but balance whining isn't allowed on TL)
SlayerS zergs - I doubt even a SlayerS fan would have much to say about them.
I'll renact my claim that SlayerS won GSTL 2 and 3 solely because of MMA. Anti-fan bias working there. He didn't win all the games true. Nonetheless without him SlayerS wouldn't have beaten the likes of MVP and DRG.
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France12909 Posts
5 to whenever Stephano got sniped. Sadly Millenium is carried by Stephano and Feast, but Feast isn't as strong yet.
It will be interesting tho, if Stephano manages to score some kills
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I think (hope) Slayers will field Crank to start off. They've sent out a code B Terran and Zerg the last two weeks. Time for toss, and Crank has quietly been impressing lately (showing good play on ESV and the IPL UK qualifier).
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On November 16 2011 14:34 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 14:16 HolyArrow wrote:On November 16 2011 13:59 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:47 HolyArrow wrote:On November 16 2011 13:25 babylon wrote:On November 16 2011 13:19 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:09 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Explain to me your reasoning then? He beat MMA in online qualifiers, and then later thestc (code A)+lucky (code B?). (maybe one or two more code a players I'm forgetting here) Since then, thestc has beat him and then he's lost to boxer. I think he beat Tails (code B?) as well. I don't know where people are getting the notion that he can suddenly steam roll code S level players. edit: Just because you dislike Slayers does not mean they are not the no.1/no.2 team right now I know all that. I use these same results when Stephano fanatics get too annoying. Lol #1/#2 team. They were exposed in the most recent GSTL. B teamers from any Korean team could have all-killed Acer and Atn. Their wins in GSTL2 and 3 were on MMA's shoulders. Ganzi has since become an elite player but the rest are middle of the road players not substantially different than the ones Stephano beat in IPL3. Your hate for SlayerS is fascinating. I can't believe someone would actually be an anti-fan of an entire team of players. If anything, what he said about them having 2 elite players and a ton of mediocre players is more fascinating, because I cannot see where he's coming from at all. I wonder what his metric is for differentiating an elite player from a mediocre one? MMA and Ganzi aside, Ryung, Puzzle, Taeja, and, until recently, CoCa, are all Code S players and have all pulled their own weight among the best in the Korean scene. Taeja has been dominating the Korean weeklies, as the only player with 6 first-place finishes in those small tournaments (other players only have at most 1 first-place finish), while Puzzle won Code A without dropping a set until the finals, while Ryung and CoCa have just shown fairly strong performances all-around. The GSTL2 win on MMA's shoulders? He must be forgetting that Alicia got Slayers 3 kills right from the start in the final match against IM, putting them way ahead (and importantly so, since it took Ryung, Ganzi, and MMA to finally take down MVP - and let's not forget Ryung's crucial role in shifting the momentum of the match in the game against Yonghwa, and wearing down MVP in a long, exhausting, well-fought macro game). He underplays the role the rest of SlayerS played in their GSTL championships, which I honestly find highly unfair and short-sighted - just because MMA played the role of the ace doesn't mean the other team didn't do anything. Sure, red4ce may be of the opinion that SlayerS is a crappy team, but his reasons for thinking so are very badly supported, if they have any sort of truth to them at all. I fully admit that I am a SlayerS fan, but my convictions aside, the arguments he makes in support of his opinion are objectively terrible. If he can elaborate on his statements to perhaps clear up ambiguities that caused me to misinterpret them, then I fully welcome that, but as things stand now, I see no validity in any of his reasons for disliking SlayerS. It seems I've thrown this thread way too far off course and I apologize for that. You think SlayerS is good, I don't. You like SlayerS, I don't. I don't care why you like Slayers and you shouldn't care why I dislike SlayerS. It's easy to fall back on some sort of statement like "That's my opinion, you have yours, let's just keep it at that" when you get the points supported your opinion picked at. The problem is that your reasons for disliking SlayerS basically boiled down to "Everyone is mediocre except MMA and Ganzi, and MMA carried them to victory in GSTL 2 and 3". Meanwhile, as you say that, SlayerS has the most players in Code S out of any other team (or close to that, IIRC), while I can easily cite examples as I did before of Alicia and Ryung pulling plenty of weight in GSTL 2 (and, if I were to go back to GSTL 3, I could definitely find other examples - for example, I recall Taeja getting an all-kill, which is inarguably a big contribution to the team's GSTL progress). Basically, I can take all your reasons for disliking SlayerS and come up with counterexamples, and even if you back up and say "Ok, but that's just my opinion", that doesn't really work, because your opinion is predicated upon all those reasons that I just countered, which is why I invited you to elaborate (even in a PM, but I suspect that you're just not interested enough to keep up this discussion, though I'm certainly open to it). Now, if you said something truly subjective, like "I dislike the personalities of various players of theirs from various interviews I've read from them", then fine - I can't argue with that. But instead, you choose to try to discuss the abilities of their players, and since GSTL/Code A/S results and standings readily exist to provide some objective insight into a discussion about player ability, your opinion becomes much more vulnerable. Alright fine. First, let's be clear. My dislike for SlayerS is different from my view of them as an overrated team. I won't get into why I dislike SlayerS because nobody should give a damn. I offered my opinion of SlayerS as a mediocre team as my justification for predicting Stephano doing well in this showmatch. As we saw in the GSTL foreigners top foreigners can hold their own against your average Korean in a winner's league format. If you wanna debate the strength of SlayerS as a team, then let's get it on. MMA and Ganzi: Great players. I've already acknowledged this. Taeja: I put very little stock in online competitions. I believe in SC2 as an e-sport and thus live competition is the ultimate measure of strength. Online tournaments only measure potential; how good a player could be in ideal circumstances. Taeja still hasn't made it out of group stages in code S. That's all that matters to me. Ryung: Good at TvT, mediocre at everything else. If Sheth can beat this guy 5-2 imagine what Stephano will do. Alicia: Was good. Not anymore Puzzle: Better than Alicia, but still falls under the same category. (note that I would predict Stephano to beat any protoss in the world right now. I'd go further into detail but balance whining isn't allowed on TL) SlayerS zergs - I doubt even a SlayerS fan would have much to brag about. I'll renact my claim that SlayerS won GSTL 2 and 3 solely because of MMA. Anti-fan bias working there. He didn't win all the games true. Nonetheless without him SlayerS wouldn't have beaten the likes of MC and MVP.
All you had to say was that you felt they were overrated. If that was already stated and I missed that, then I apologize. I dislike quite a few things because I deem them overrated so I understand where you're coming from. However, I would like to point out the contradiction between how you say you put little stock in online competitions, while, at the same time, you cite Sheth's online victory against Ryung as a minor point in your overall argument.
Anyway, thanks for the elaboration. If you want to continue discussing the strength of their players, then I'm down, though it probably won't amount to much because I generally agree with what you're saying, though I do think CoCa is a bit underrated. As a huge Alicia fan it does pain me to admit that he used to be good but hasn't shown anything recently (though I am extremely temped to go into further detail on why that is, but as you said, we should refrain from balance whining), and I hope to see him come back into form since he qualified for Code A, which gives me hope. Puzzle hasn't shown too much lately either, but, then again, what Protoss really has (counting Korean tournaments - I'm aware HuK won MLG)? The Protoss that looks best to me right now is Oz, and even then, his results are merely pretty good, but nothing particularly noteworthy. I do think Ryung is better than people give him credit for, but I agree that his TvT outshines his other matchups.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 16 2011 14:34 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 14:16 HolyArrow wrote:On November 16 2011 13:59 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:47 HolyArrow wrote:On November 16 2011 13:25 babylon wrote:On November 16 2011 13:19 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:09 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 13:05 red4ce wrote:On November 16 2011 13:02 1Eris1 wrote:On November 16 2011 12:59 red4ce wrote:
The only chance for Slayers to beat Stephano is Ganzi taking him down or one of the zergs getting a lucky BO win. Once/If Stephano loses the rest of Millenium will be a walkover. rofl no, Stephano is nowhere near the level of the top of Code S yet, please stop overhyping him. he lost to Boxer ffs, and then to goody. GOODY I'm a certified Stephano 'hater', but I respect his skill. My annoyance at Stephano fans is nothing compared to by dislike for SlayerS. Explain to me your reasoning then? He beat MMA in online qualifiers, and then later thestc (code A)+lucky (code B?). (maybe one or two more code a players I'm forgetting here) Since then, thestc has beat him and then he's lost to boxer. I think he beat Tails (code B?) as well. I don't know where people are getting the notion that he can suddenly steam roll code S level players. edit: Just because you dislike Slayers does not mean they are not the no.1/no.2 team right now I know all that. I use these same results when Stephano fanatics get too annoying. Lol #1/#2 team. They were exposed in the most recent GSTL. B teamers from any Korean team could have all-killed Acer and Atn. Their wins in GSTL2 and 3 were on MMA's shoulders. Ganzi has since become an elite player but the rest are middle of the road players not substantially different than the ones Stephano beat in IPL3. Your hate for SlayerS is fascinating. I can't believe someone would actually be an anti-fan of an entire team of players. If anything, what he said about them having 2 elite players and a ton of mediocre players is more fascinating, because I cannot see where he's coming from at all. I wonder what his metric is for differentiating an elite player from a mediocre one? MMA and Ganzi aside, Ryung, Puzzle, Taeja, and, until recently, CoCa, are all Code S players and have all pulled their own weight among the best in the Korean scene. Taeja has been dominating the Korean weeklies, as the only player with 6 first-place finishes in those small tournaments (other players only have at most 1 first-place finish), while Puzzle won Code A without dropping a set until the finals, while Ryung and CoCa have just shown fairly strong performances all-around. The GSTL2 win on MMA's shoulders? He must be forgetting that Alicia got Slayers 3 kills right from the start in the final match against IM, putting them way ahead (and importantly so, since it took Ryung, Ganzi, and MMA to finally take down MVP - and let's not forget Ryung's crucial role in shifting the momentum of the match in the game against Yonghwa, and wearing down MVP in a long, exhausting, well-fought macro game). He underplays the role the rest of SlayerS played in their GSTL championships, which I honestly find highly unfair and short-sighted - just because MMA played the role of the ace doesn't mean the other team didn't do anything. Sure, red4ce may be of the opinion that SlayerS is a crappy team, but his reasons for thinking so are very badly supported, if they have any sort of truth to them at all. I fully admit that I am a SlayerS fan, but my convictions aside, the arguments he makes in support of his opinion are objectively terrible. If he can elaborate on his statements to perhaps clear up ambiguities that caused me to misinterpret them, then I fully welcome that, but as things stand now, I see no validity in any of his reasons for disliking SlayerS. It seems I've thrown this thread way too far off course and I apologize for that. You think SlayerS is good, I don't. You like SlayerS, I don't. I don't care why you like Slayers and you shouldn't care why I dislike SlayerS. It's easy to fall back on some sort of statement like "That's my opinion, you have yours, let's just keep it at that" when you get the points supported your opinion picked at. The problem is that your reasons for disliking SlayerS basically boiled down to "Everyone is mediocre except MMA and Ganzi, and MMA carried them to victory in GSTL 2 and 3". Meanwhile, as you say that, SlayerS has the most players in Code S out of any other team (or close to that, IIRC), while I can easily cite examples as I did before of Alicia and Ryung pulling plenty of weight in GSTL 2 (and, if I were to go back to GSTL 3, I could definitely find other examples - for example, I recall Taeja getting an all-kill, which is inarguably a big contribution to the team's GSTL progress). Basically, I can take all your reasons for disliking SlayerS and come up with counterexamples, and even if you back up and say "Ok, but that's just my opinion", that doesn't really work, because your opinion is predicated upon all those reasons that I just countered, which is why I invited you to elaborate (even in a PM, but I suspect that you're just not interested enough to keep up this discussion, though I'm certainly open to it). Now, if you said something truly subjective, like "I dislike the personalities of various players of theirs from various interviews I've read from them", then fine - I can't argue with that. But instead, you choose to try to discuss the abilities of their players, and since GSTL/Code A/S results and standings readily exist to provide some objective insight into a discussion about player ability, your opinion becomes much more vulnerable. Taeja: I put very little stock in online competitions. I believe in SC2 as an e-sport and thus live competition is the ultimate measure of strength. Online tournaments only measure potential; how good a player could be in ideal circumstances. Taeja still hasn't made it out of group stages in code S. That's all that matters to me.
But if Taeja is played he will not be performing on a stage but online. How does his inability to impress in front of a crowd factor into this team series?
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EPT
