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Northern Ireland26257 Posts
Yeah, because I named InControl specifically
Huk and Bomber aren't top tier players yeah?
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On August 14 2011 13:42 Ubertron wrote:
For me the interesting thing is that Destiny, most people's idea of a 'mid-level pro' is having so much success with these infestor builds. Wait until the TOP guys start adopting this style more and tell me some balance changes aren't required
This isn't a balance QQ by any means, but lower level players are doing really well with these builds and taking games off top-tier players with consistency
Are you referring to iNcontroL as a top-tier player with consistency?
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On August 14 2011 13:47 Goggalor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:24 iNcontroL wrote:
gg's! Kinda sad to see so much negativity in here.. not really worth playing destiny when so many haters want to make this less than fun.
Tried to make it fun and did different stuff each game. He won and played really well. Wish it could be more about the games!
Until next time! First you talk shit about a player, then when you lose in a bo7 you complain about the negativity (that you took a big part in stirring up) and make excuses for losing.
He didn't even talk shit. He said Destiny wasn't going to win MLG like 7 months ago. All the retards got worked up for no reason. "Incontrol says Destiny is a fucking terrible player bla bla." It's pretty ridiculous.
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Fleebenworth I completely agree with you
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Northern Ireland26257 Posts
To clarify I said "games" and not "series" before anybody jumps on me for that comment either, and that Huk actually won his series vs Destiny
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On August 14 2011 13:47 Throat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:45 wats0n wrote:On August 14 2011 13:39 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:37 wats0n wrote:On August 14 2011 13:24 iNcontroL wrote:
gg's! Kinda sad to see so much negativity in here.. not really worth playing destiny when so many haters want to make this less than fun.
Tried to make it fun and did different stuff each game. He won and played really well. Wish it could be more about the games!
Until next time! The game that was most interesting to me was the lost temple game. It was nice to see your turtle style go against Destiny's strongest infestor build. I would have liked to seen you split up your void rays and shift queued attacks over key points of the map with at least one if not both. No need to tell you that if you had shift attacked a void ray over the rocks you would have pushed back those lings that snuck in, burrowed and killed all your sentries. You played well and I think you should practice with Destiny in private. He's the best infestor control out there and it was cool to see you experiment literally EVERYTHING tonight. It was very informative. I think the imbalance right now is that of the three spellcasters (ghosts, infestors, and HT's) HT's are the weakest. They need more move speed probably. They're like an inverse of ghosts. Feedback is a single target whereas EMP is an aoe, obviously EMP would be better. And snipe is a single target damage whereas storm is an aoe damage. I'd rather have snipe because storm fails against so much. "I'd rather have snipe" Think about that for a couple of minutes and get back to me if you truly feel that way. Feedback/Storm/Morph to Archon and can be warped in... sounds like a pretty good unit to me. I do feel that way. If I want to knock out energy EMP takes it all out in an aoe and if I need focused kill on an infestor snipe takes them out. With HT's you need double digit numbers to knock out energy of multiple targets. It's pretty obvious to me that a focused damage and an aoe energy drain far exceeds an aoe damage and a focused energy drain. The storm just doesn't cleave the important targets the way snipe does because any donkey with a brain just moves his units out of storm and almost everything is hardy enough to survive a storm no matter how well placed. If you are talking about energy vs energy units then yes. In general, storm > snipe.
Snipe's utility far exceeds storm's. I'd rather have a focused assassination on key targets than what effectively ends up being a zoning spell because every donkey knows how to micro his units back when he sees a slow-moving HT coming at him. Even a well placed storm isn't gonna murder a high priority target. It could work if HT's get more movespeed which is why I suggested that.
As it stands I see HT's as a pretty much crappy mirror of ghosts. Ghosts: focused damage, aoe energy drain. HT: focused energy drain, aoe damage. It's pretty obvious that with spellcasters being the high priority and micro being the variable that HT's just aren't cutting it.
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On August 14 2011 13:43 Throat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:41 damod wrote:On August 14 2011 13:32 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:29 damod wrote:On August 14 2011 13:26 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:24 iNcontroL wrote:
gg's! Kinda sad to see so much negativity in here.. not really worth playing destiny when so many haters want to make this less than fun.
Tried to make it fun and did different stuff each game. He won and played really well. Wish it could be more about the games!
Until next time! Its because you showed us that you play terribly vs Infestor builds and still complain about them being imba. no that what the blind hatred tells you he did. So you're saying he played well vs the Infestor builds? This is a guy who has criticized Destiny in the past and also complained about Infestors very recently, this was his chance to showcase both of these opinions. He could beat Destiny and show that he is better since he is a pro and Destiny is just a mid-tier player, and he could play standard and do what IdrA was saying (3 base turtle Colo style) and still lose to showcase how Infestors are "overpowered". Instead he did strange builds and played terrible (in general) and lost a showmatch that he should have won. I just think he could have used this showmatch as something other than "trying to make it fun". Fun isn't watching Zeal/Archon get demolished by Roach/Infestor and cannon rushes anyway. Dude, take a deep breath, relax, and understand, it was just a showmatch, incontrol was haveing fun. so what if he havnt did well against infestors ? he could have just cheesed his way in the showmatch and pretty much win against destiny, but instead he decided to play longer games just so people wont complain that he is a "noobish cheeser", and guess what ? either way people werent satesfied with his play. give him a break... Sorry bro, but criticizing Destiny and calling Infestors overpowered, then doing retarded builds vs Destiny's Infestor heavy builds, and then expecting there to be no negativity is pretty fucking stupid.
i guess he didnt expected the negativity because he tried to entertain the crowed with fun builds (or what you call "retarded builds"), why would he blamed for that ?
my guess is that if he would have won against destiny with cheese he would have acused as a "noobish cheeser" am i correct ?
as i look at it, its a lose lose situation for him, wheather he cheese and win, and then he get called a cheeser, or he try to entertain the crowed and lose, and then he get called a "bad player"...
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Wow destiny fanboys are really fucking annoying.
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On August 14 2011 13:48 zhooter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:42 Ubertron wrote:
For me the interesting thing is that Destiny, most people's idea of a 'mid-level pro' is having so much success with these infestor builds. Wait until the TOP guys start adopting this style more and tell me some balance changes aren't required
This isn't a balance QQ by any means, but lower level players are doing really well with these builds and taking games off top-tier players with consistency Are you referring to iNcontroL as a top-tier player with consistency?
No, but FnaticRain is.
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On August 14 2011 13:40 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:36 Fleebenworth wrote:On August 14 2011 13:25 Fission wrote:
gg all. @incontrol - woulda prefered to see you try to win, rather than showcase fun builds. GL nexttime anyways. You're delusional if you buy that BS. He was trying pretty hard to win and used similar comps and builds in nearly every game, he's just not that good and infestors are really fucking powerful ATM. are you saying DT, chargelot and archons are the units to go against infestor roache? pretty sure even pure roache would have done well there
Chargelot archon ht vs infestor ling, swap chargelots for stalkers when the switch to roaches comes and be careful of your hts.
If you get favourable fights, you can win the game early on provided you press forward quickly. Remember infestors take 50 seconds to build, if you stomp his main army and get to the middle of his production lines quickly enough (and have a proxy pylon) you can end it.
Zerg's ultimate goal is broodlord-infestor-roach in this matchup, so I honestly think the old school death ball of void ray-colo-stalker with a few ht's+ sentries mixed in for feedbacks/storms would work pretty well in end game.
One truly underused aspect of the protoss army these days is using sentries to split the zerg army and keep the infestors out of fungal range while killing the roaches in front, making your army take a few steps backwards if necessary. In fact, against infestor roach before broods come out I think colossi/sentry/stalker could really wreck. Its almost as if protoss stop making sentries after they lose their first batch to infestors, when forcefield has and probably always will be the best spell to use against the zerg army.
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Northern Ireland26257 Posts
On August 14 2011 14:01 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:48 zhooter wrote:On August 14 2011 13:42 Ubertron wrote:
For me the interesting thing is that Destiny, most people's idea of a 'mid-level pro' is having so much success with these infestor builds. Wait until the TOP guys start adopting this style more and tell me some balance changes aren't required
This isn't a balance QQ by any means, but lower level players are doing really well with these builds and taking games off top-tier players with consistency Are you referring to iNcontroL as a top-tier player with consistency? No, but FnaticRain is.
Oh and Startales Bomber isn't bad either
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On August 14 2011 13:52 damod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:43 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:41 damod wrote:On August 14 2011 13:32 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:29 damod wrote:On August 14 2011 13:26 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:24 iNcontroL wrote:
gg's! Kinda sad to see so much negativity in here.. not really worth playing destiny when so many haters want to make this less than fun.
Tried to make it fun and did different stuff each game. He won and played really well. Wish it could be more about the games!
Until next time! Its because you showed us that you play terribly vs Infestor builds and still complain about them being imba. no that what the blind hatred tells you he did. So you're saying he played well vs the Infestor builds? This is a guy who has criticized Destiny in the past and also complained about Infestors very recently, this was his chance to showcase both of these opinions. He could beat Destiny and show that he is better since he is a pro and Destiny is just a mid-tier player, and he could play standard and do what IdrA was saying (3 base turtle Colo style) and still lose to showcase how Infestors are "overpowered". Instead he did strange builds and played terrible (in general) and lost a showmatch that he should have won. I just think he could have used this showmatch as something other than "trying to make it fun". Fun isn't watching Zeal/Archon get demolished by Roach/Infestor and cannon rushes anyway. Dude, take a deep breath, relax, and understand, it was just a showmatch, incontrol was haveing fun. so what if he havnt did well against infestors ? he could have just cheesed his way in the showmatch and pretty much win against destiny, but instead he decided to play longer games just so people wont complain that he is a "noobish cheeser", and guess what ? either way people werent satesfied with his play. give him a break... Sorry bro, but criticizing Destiny and calling Infestors overpowered, then doing retarded builds vs Destiny's Infestor heavy builds, and then expecting there to be no negativity is pretty fucking stupid. i guess he didnt expected the negativity because he tried to entertain the crowed with fun builds (or what you call "retarded builds"), why would he blamed for that ? my guess is that if he would have won against destiny with cheese he would have acused as a "noobish cheeser" am i correct ? as i look at it, its a lose lose situation for him, wheather he cheese and win, and then he get called a cheeser, or he try to entertain the crowed and lose, and then he get called a "bad player"...
to be fair Incontrol's play wasn't very entertaining. In the games where he didn't cheese or win with strong timing attacks(all the games he lost), he got stomped by Destiny pretty decisively. He just wasn't able to handle the mass infestor play.
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Wow! I'm glad I wasn't reading this thread while the games were going on or it would have totally ruined it for me...Why is everyone being so negative?
iNcontroL played really nice and showed off some pretty interesting strategies...I was kind of disappointed when he played like "normal" protoss in a couple of the games. His decisions were questionable, like pushing out with like 3 archons and 4 zealots mid game...archons don't work like that :D
Destiny showed off some really good strategies as well...although if you've ever watched his stream you know he is pretty unconventional often. The infestor can pretty much do anything and I think that it might be a while before protoss really figure out how to deal with them. The way destiny plays really reminds me how protoss played when Sc2 first came out...he gets bases, sets up defense everywhere, and techs up to his big power unit.
You guys do know what a "Showmatch" is right? Just a fun set meant for entertainment value, for fun...I'm not sure why everyone is trying to make it seem like either player had something to prove. There was no "shit talk" unless you can show me a specific instance where either player said something overly negative about the other...the worst thing I remember incontrol saying about Destiny was that he thinks that Huk is a much better player and lost to destiny in the macro games they played based on the strength of the infestor and late game zerg.
It's really fun watching the game progress like this through different meta game stages and watching the people who play 8-10 hours a day try to break and come up with different strategies. Until you do that I don't think any of us can even try to complain about balance.
And why is everyone saying iNcontroL cheesed so much?? You guys do know that forge expand and putting cannons at the natural, and DT expand isn't cheese right?? You guys should really think before you post such nonsense.
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On August 14 2011 14:05 slicknav wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:52 damod wrote:On August 14 2011 13:43 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:41 damod wrote:On August 14 2011 13:32 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:29 damod wrote:On August 14 2011 13:26 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:24 iNcontroL wrote:
gg's! Kinda sad to see so much negativity in here.. not really worth playing destiny when so many haters want to make this less than fun.
Tried to make it fun and did different stuff each game. He won and played really well. Wish it could be more about the games!
Until next time! Its because you showed us that you play terribly vs Infestor builds and still complain about them being imba. no that what the blind hatred tells you he did. So you're saying he played well vs the Infestor builds? This is a guy who has criticized Destiny in the past and also complained about Infestors very recently, this was his chance to showcase both of these opinions. He could beat Destiny and show that he is better since he is a pro and Destiny is just a mid-tier player, and he could play standard and do what IdrA was saying (3 base turtle Colo style) and still lose to showcase how Infestors are "overpowered". Instead he did strange builds and played terrible (in general) and lost a showmatch that he should have won. I just think he could have used this showmatch as something other than "trying to make it fun". Fun isn't watching Zeal/Archon get demolished by Roach/Infestor and cannon rushes anyway. Dude, take a deep breath, relax, and understand, it was just a showmatch, incontrol was haveing fun. so what if he havnt did well against infestors ? he could have just cheesed his way in the showmatch and pretty much win against destiny, but instead he decided to play longer games just so people wont complain that he is a "noobish cheeser", and guess what ? either way people werent satesfied with his play. give him a break... Sorry bro, but criticizing Destiny and calling Infestors overpowered, then doing retarded builds vs Destiny's Infestor heavy builds, and then expecting there to be no negativity is pretty fucking stupid. i guess he didnt expected the negativity because he tried to entertain the crowed with fun builds (or what you call "retarded builds"), why would he blamed for that ? my guess is that if he would have won against destiny with cheese he would have acused as a "noobish cheeser" am i correct ? as i look at it, its a lose lose situation for him, wheather he cheese and win, and then he get called a cheeser, or he try to entertain the crowed and lose, and then he get called a "bad player"... to be fair Incontrol's play wasn't very entertaining. In the games where he didn't cheese or win with strong timing attacks(all the games he lost), he got stomped by Destiny pretty decisively. He just wasn't able to handle the mass infestor play.
i did found the those games pretty entertaining, but i agree, its hard to try wierd builds or wierds army composition against a style like destiny to make it a fun game.
still, incontrol did managed to make a run for destiny's money in the early game matches, im sure incontrol will work super hard with the macro beast idra to improve his mid-late game, and who knowes, maybe one day we will witness a macro game win from incontrol in a humble ladder game against destiny 
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On August 14 2011 14:04 Ubertron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:01 wei2coolman wrote:On August 14 2011 13:48 zhooter wrote:On August 14 2011 13:42 Ubertron wrote:
For me the interesting thing is that Destiny, most people's idea of a 'mid-level pro' is having so much success with these infestor builds. Wait until the TOP guys start adopting this style more and tell me some balance changes aren't required
This isn't a balance QQ by any means, but lower level players are doing really well with these builds and taking games off top-tier players with consistency Are you referring to iNcontroL as a top-tier player with consistency? No, but FnaticRain is. Oh and Startales Bomber isn't bad either
Niether is ZenexPuzzle
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On August 14 2011 14:03 Vore210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:40 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2011 13:36 Fleebenworth wrote:On August 14 2011 13:25 Fission wrote:
gg all. @incontrol - woulda prefered to see you try to win, rather than showcase fun builds. GL nexttime anyways. You're delusional if you buy that BS. He was trying pretty hard to win and used similar comps and builds in nearly every game, he's just not that good and infestors are really fucking powerful ATM. are you saying DT, chargelot and archons are the units to go against infestor roache? pretty sure even pure roache would have done well there Chargelot archon ht vs infestor ling, swap chargelots for stalkers when the switch to roaches comes and be careful of your hts. If you get favourable fights, you can win the game early on provided you press forward quickly. Remember infestors take 50 seconds to build, if you stomp his main army and get to the middle of his production lines quickly enough (and have a proxy pylon) you can end it. Zerg's ultimate goal is broodlord-infestor-roach in this matchup, so I honestly think the old school death ball of void ray-colo-stalker with a few ht's+ sentries mixed in for feedbacks/storms would work pretty well in end game. One truly underused aspect of the protoss army these days is using sentries to split the zerg army and keep the infestors out of fungal range while killing the roaches in front, making your army take a few steps backwards if necessary. In fact, against infestor roach before broods come out I think colossi/sentry/stalker could really wreck. Its almost as if protoss stop making sentries after they lose their first batch to infestors, when forcefield has and probably always will be the best spell to use against the zerg army.
problem is he still went chargelot, archon, DT against ROACHE infestors and he never warped in stalkers. the rest of what you have said can be true but I honestly don't play protoss. If anything, I would say they are cutting sentries because of the gas cost and they want the army to be a little bit more mobile when it gets to 3 bases
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You serious about infestors being OP? If the players cannot adapt and invent strategies against it then there might be an ISSUE, but there should be time that A) strategy to get more popular, so plenty of people will try to deal it and maybe there are someone who figures it out (void ray+ colossi was and still is very silly combo if not handled properly).
If there just will not be any solution to stop against mass infestors, not even by mass ghost/mass templars then there is something off right there. Currently, we'll need to see how will the protoss/terran change their metagame against this unit combo if it will become as a standard build as for Zerg.
Why can't people just enjoy the game as it is? I bet there will never be a balanced game, atleast for fanboys who's hero just lost.
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On August 14 2011 13:51 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:47 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:45 wats0n wrote:On August 14 2011 13:39 Throat wrote:On August 14 2011 13:37 wats0n wrote:On August 14 2011 13:24 iNcontroL wrote:
gg's! Kinda sad to see so much negativity in here.. not really worth playing destiny when so many haters want to make this less than fun.
Tried to make it fun and did different stuff each game. He won and played really well. Wish it could be more about the games!
Until next time! The game that was most interesting to me was the lost temple game. It was nice to see your turtle style go against Destiny's strongest infestor build. I would have liked to seen you split up your void rays and shift queued attacks over key points of the map with at least one if not both. No need to tell you that if you had shift attacked a void ray over the rocks you would have pushed back those lings that snuck in, burrowed and killed all your sentries. You played well and I think you should practice with Destiny in private. He's the best infestor control out there and it was cool to see you experiment literally EVERYTHING tonight. It was very informative. I think the imbalance right now is that of the three spellcasters (ghosts, infestors, and HT's) HT's are the weakest. They need more move speed probably. They're like an inverse of ghosts. Feedback is a single target whereas EMP is an aoe, obviously EMP would be better. And snipe is a single target damage whereas storm is an aoe damage. I'd rather have snipe because storm fails against so much. "I'd rather have snipe" Think about that for a couple of minutes and get back to me if you truly feel that way. Feedback/Storm/Morph to Archon and can be warped in... sounds like a pretty good unit to me. I do feel that way. If I want to knock out energy EMP takes it all out in an aoe and if I need focused kill on an infestor snipe takes them out. With HT's you need double digit numbers to knock out energy of multiple targets. It's pretty obvious to me that a focused damage and an aoe energy drain far exceeds an aoe damage and a focused energy drain. The storm just doesn't cleave the important targets the way snipe does because any donkey with a brain just moves his units out of storm and almost everything is hardy enough to survive a storm no matter how well placed. If you are talking about energy vs energy units then yes. In general, storm > snipe. Snipe's utility far exceeds storm's. I'd rather have a focused assassination on key targets than what effectively ends up being a zoning spell because every donkey knows how to micro his units back when he sees a slow-moving HT coming at him. Even a well placed storm isn't gonna murder a high priority target. It could work if HT's get more movespeed which is why I suggested that. As it stands I see HT's as a pretty much crappy mirror of ghosts. Ghosts: focused damage, aoe energy drain. HT: focused energy drain, aoe damage. It's pretty obvious that with spellcasters being the high priority and micro being the variable that HT's just aren't cutting it.
I could almost buy the EMP > Feedback argument, but it seriously matters on the situation. If you get hit by a rogue EMP you can retreat and regain energy, while feedback has no cooldown and can be spammed to kill 4 infestor in around 1 second. It seriously is situational in that respect.
Storm is so much better than snipe though and trying to argue to the contrary is a silly attempt. an AoE spell that does a lot of damage REALLY fast and makes zergling dead. Microing does NOT eliminate storms usefulness, since if you are microing roach, or any unit besides hydra (which get melted by storm/collo anyway) you are taking free hits from stalker/immortal/collo to dodge a psi storm.
Storm >>> snipe in almost every scenario. For sniping infestors I'd prefer HT's, the only scenario where snipe > Storm would be killing ultras/broodlord.
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Damn, I fell asleep during game 2 but congrats to Destiny!
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While you can't really make a point about the infestor's strength from just this showmatch (Destiny and iNcontrol are not top players by any means and are quite close in level, no offense intended, and they know it), iNcontrol is quite right when he said that Destiny can easily take games off much better players than him with pure infestors (Bomber, Rain, HuK, Ace, etc..).
Things that Protoss needs to figure out really begin to pile up (TvP's one base all ins, how to stop mass droning in PvZ...).
Time for an hero to rise and show us how to do it (Puzzle gogo??) :D
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EPT
